rhitwick said:
Do you really need to refer a book to do good? I help the needy...why it has to pass a criteria test according to some x y z book to determine if it was good deed by me.
I know your reply is regarding Religion in context of @Anorion's understanding.
But regarding the shrutis and a general discussion on if we need texts -: You may or you may not.
One cannot always assume about the world and conclude on the way he looks at it through his senses all the time or how it is functioning presently forgetting all the past. Vedas only echo the highest wisdom embedded in one's heart. You may achieve that wisdom by getting closer to that inner audience inside of you, the speech behind your speech, the eyes behind your eye, the mind behind your mind, that part within you, the world which one experiences even when he thinks he sleeps.
If reading a book was of no use, then why would they even send you to schools? A child may not know what is good or bad in this world, let alone what is dharmic or adharmic (terms which are beyond good or bad). He may not know whether eating too much chocolate or Uncle Chips is doing good or bad. Who tells him if he shoud not eat so much and what not? A person may not know how to play a guitar. How does he learns guitar? Many people think that they view the world in present. But the 'hilarious texts' tell us that we are always viewing the external world in the past. The light of the sun reaches 8 minutes to reach us. Even when you are talking to your friend you may be viewing him some nanoseconds in the past. There are people who are full of "I" telling their achievements as to how many books they read per day, whereas their "actions" tell they only judge without reading. But other 'hilarious texts' and our own wisdom which tells that physically, we are growing daily. The change is very slow as per our perception and it is unobservable. We are not the same person who existed some ten years ago. The physical image of our face, weight, shape, size, height etc have all changed. Chemically, we are losing millions of molecules per second in the form of breath (exhale), perspiration, excreta, urination, farts and intaking other molecules in the form of breath (inhale), drinking, eating etc. In brief, a person does not have the same set of molecules or atoms that he had a second ago. Mentally, our thoughts are changing too. What we were thinking a second ago is not the same. Mentally we evolve and our knowledge increases every passing second. So how can we be the same even in a seconds differentiation? Are our eyes decieving us when we look into the mirror? How can one even prove his her own existence, when object to prove has become the past, in this constantly unfolding space and time, the very instant of your calculations, let alone conclusions?
bhagvada-gita said:
Fearlessness, purity of temperament, steadfastness in the Yoga of Knowledge, giving, self-control, sacrifice, the study of Scripture, askesis, candour and straightforwardness, harmlessness, truth, absence of wrath, self-denial, calm, absence of fault-finding, compassion to all beings, absence of greed, gentleness, modesty, freedom from restlessness, energy, forgiveness, patience, cleanness, absence of envy and pride - these are the wealth of the man born into the Deva nature. (BG-16.1-3)
Even the siblings fight amongst each other. History is a witness how the great nations were divided over cousins trying to fight over a piece of land where one of the clans didn't even want to provide an inch of land and wanted to kill the other clan. It is the innate nature of the humans to get attached to name, fame, greed, lust and lose control and take actions under anger which they may regret most of their life. If everyone was capable of wise actions, if everyone was born with divine qualities, if everyone was born knowledeable then what was the need of parents giving advices, guidance that is received from many stories and the ideals of living which reflect the deepest standards of the wisdom embedded in one's heart which most are unable to experience? If that was the case, then there would have been no terrorism, violence, rapes, crimes etc in the first place, let alone getting influenced by any of the external phenomenons! Maya is not only an external phenomenon, but also a world which manifests because of our own blindedness and ignorance, because of attachment and our inability to do our objective duties. Therefore, the external environment can be understood better, if their is peace and hygene in our inner environment.
Many people think that the shrutis tell you what to do. But there is a difference between "guiding and telling" one what to do. Even a kid might be told as to what to do forcefully, even when he has not asked for help. It may be for his own good. He may not understand it at that point of time and may abuse and curse his own parents like everyone does in their childhood at some point thinking their parents are their enemies and continues to demean them in front of their "perceived friends" at that point of time. Whereas, guidance is usually given when sought. There is a part in all of us which usually reveals a glimpse of himself/itself/herself in most terrible situations in life when our mind stops working and we want a desperate guidance. The voice that comes usually surpasses any logic of the mind. The mental conditioning may still make him believe that he is still a child, whereas the vibrations from the infinite echoed from that deeper voice may tell him something else. As a result, a child may suddenly become an adult when responsibilities become heavy on him, an arrogant kid may become a loving son towards his old parents and perhaps the society and a person living in the world of lower intellect identified with divisions, may rise beyond the world of mind living in true bliss which is beyond any divisions.
If one thinks that it is logic that changes the person, then why don't the people who drink and smoke even after knowing that it is injurious to health, change their habits? If one thinks that it is logic that makes an affect, then why don't criminals and rapists change their behaviour even after perceiving that some harm is being caused?
Some other "hilarious texts" state that "Fools make their own experience". If a person grows up without the understanding of 'hilarious texts' or guidance from elders, which is often for your own benefit, the highest which is based on the science of detachment and responsibilities, then one may come to that wisdom through his own experience at a later stage/age in his life or he may never. Whereas, if one listens to the elders who have seen life or listen to those ideals of shrutis, he may understand the working of the world at a younger age only.
The shrutis speak of detachment, yet the people who ignore it, drink excessively, smoke and take drugs. As a result, money is wasted on these materialistic activites, the definition of "entertainment" which is often borrowed from the west or the herd they were influenced from and then the money is wasted again after these people with the "I don't care" attitude lose their liver, kidneys, brains etc. Therefore, it is also not guaranteed that shrutis or any advice of the elders will definitely make a person wise.
This transformation from an ignorant to wise depends, if one is really looking for guidance. The person who has chosen to ignore that love of the parents mistaken as "force" or the shrutis, will obviously continue to drink and smoke. But a person who will seek and listen will remember what his parents told him or what he read in that "hilarious text". This constant listening and seeking is called as "bhakti" or devotion as per the shrutis and perfecting the connection via bhakti without assuming and judging is called bhakti-yog. (Bhakti is not the same as they show us on the TV shows)
IMO, it is not the guru who choses the disciple, but the disciple who choses the teacher. The teacher can only measure his willingness and if he is really seeking and then only reveal him the knowledge/technique/art etc. That teacher, can be in the form of shrutis compiled in written form by VedVyas, random wisdom from Paulo Coelho , one's own parents, the teacher in the school etc.
Upanishad said:
This Self is not won by exegesis, nor by brain-power, nor by much learning of Scripture. Only by him whom It chooses can It be won; to him this Self unveils its own body. (manduka Upanishad 3.2.3, Page 145)
Anyways, shrutis unlike abrahamic texts that we recently discussed do not have any criteria tests. It is a science of consciousness promoting an understanding of self, art of detachment, objective duties (the yoga of karma) etc which only promotes the path towards the highest consciousness not in form of mechanical knowledge, but mostly in the form of metaphors and riddles i.e the knowledge presented in the form of creativity i.e poetry (Vedic poetry), stories (shrutis presented in the form of stories in some puranas, where smritis are meant to be remembered and compared to the ideals of the shrutis) and idols where Vishnu (the binding force of the ideal ocean) dreams in this ocean of infinity i.e Ananta, where the Nataraja (from sanskrit nrtraj) presents the supreme consciousness manifesting and dissolving while dancing over the personified demons of the human psyche.
Anorion said:
basically, religion is sooo good, that it makes economically backward people catch up and get ahead of these educated people in terms of health
Religion basically divides. Any form of ism that one identifies to and attaches itself to leads to the first step towards the division. While Islam puts it explicitly, definies and divides, Hinduism, Buddhism etc are mere words where the essence teaches to detach and decondition, but most of the followers ignorant about the essence attach to and treat themselves differently. Even atheism is a religion only, where the followers perceive themselves as superior to theists, sometimes abuse the theists, condescend and form atheist groups. Though the atheist proclaim to be scientific, many atheists still follow the science blindly, attach to one angle which is often propogated by the modern scientists and will not even consider pondering over any other angle or anything of their own and will stick to that conditioning, unable to decondition helplessly. This forum alone has provided ample proofs where people, reducing themselves to the tags of atheist, who never read even the Gita presumpuously associated it to a religion, saw Indians worshipping to cows, horses and soma as some alcoholic wine and fell into the traps of the likes of the missionaries like Max Muller and Macaulay whose aims were to distort and demean alone and the corruption of some brahmins who reduced the understanding of the Vedas to a meaningless set of rituals where the meaning of sacrifice was distorted totally and identified by killing .
A wonderful read : The Max Muller Syndrome: Deceiving Hindus (Part 2) | The Chakra News
Regarding the distortion done by the corrupted brahmins (i.e brahmins only for namesake) : Aurobindo's, The Secret of the Vedas : *www.sriaurobindoashram.org/ashram/sriauro/downloadpdf.php?id=30
There are even more serious cases who will ignore the history under the pretext of their theory of "hilarious texts" and plethora of assumptions and then continue thinking that the shrutis force something upon you. There are many people who continue to divide, ignore, assume etc. It doesn't matter whether they label themselves as scientific, atheist, theist etc. Its the essence that matters, not the tag or any ism, no matter how pleasing it may sound to a subjective mind.
