*** Science Or God? ***

[Faun]

Every human lives with some prejudice in his head. Questioning and rational debating won't change this.

In India, only nationalism can sort things out.

The point is that nationalism means nothing to people who are motivated by religion and think that religion comes first. And it won't come by in a pill you can take.

And further, nationalism is not a cure all.

What we need are the people with rational thinking, people who can think on their own (not by some book written eons ago), people who don't get incited by religious leaders, people who don't walk out violent demonstration just because some rumor spread of their own religion people getting killed in another country, people who don't form a moral police of hypocrites.

Finally, a well guarded border.

Even if the verses were correct or were relevant at 600AD, if Mediator's argument is based on 'em, the counter argument is also relevant. The context and reasons are relevant.

Why not start reading these yourself ? I bet you will find it intriguing enough.

 

[whitestar_999]

The point is that nationalism means nothing to people who are motivated by religion and think that religion comes first. And it won't come by in a pill you can take.

i disagree.just wait for a few hundred years & there will be a pill for everything.

 

[mediator]

What we need are the people with rational thinking, people who can think on their own (not by some book written eons ago), people who don't get incited by religious leaders, people who don't walk out violent demonstration just because some rumor spread of their own religion people getting killed in another country, people who don't form a moral police of hypocrites.

Very well said! This is what is called in essence, the self-knowledge or understanding of the self.

Better is one's own law of works, swadharma, though in itself faulty than an alien law well wrought out; death in one's own law of being is better, perilous is it to follow an alien law ( BG 3.35)

This Self is not won by exegesis, nor by brain-power, nor by much learning of Scripture. Only by him whom It chooses can It be won; to him this Self unveils its own body. (manduka Upanishad 3.2.3, Page 145)

When thy intelligence shall cross beyond the whirl of delusion, then shalt thou become indifferent to Scripture heard or that which thou hast yet to hear. When thy intelligence which is bewildered by the Sruti, shall stand unmoving and stable in Samadhi, then shalt thou attain to Yoga. (BG 2.52-53)

 

[skeletor]

hmm no need to quote religious texts, there's been enough interpretation of them - go read em! sure you can find some things to take away. Have read these texts, and other versions too. Liked Ar-Rehman and Al-Jinn. No matter what the Quran says, most people have a code of conduct that they live their daily lives by. In the most war torn extremist taliban operated area of Afghanistan, a group of Pushtun Villagers still found it fit to help one American Soldier to safety (while shielding him from the Taliban, putting their own lives in danger)

Marcus Luttrell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


think about how everyone would behave if there were cctv cameras everywhere in the world recording everything. at any time, anyone can go back and check who did what. God fearing people live in this world where our actions have permanent and eternal consequences as against being lost in the void.

Also, please avoid Prabhupada version of the Bhagavat Gita, if any of you do get interested in reading those texts. You will see Hare Krishnas selling these in public places.

That is exactly what I said in my first post here. Actions. Doesn't matter if they are dictated by a hilarious pile of text or not. Actions are actions.

It is better to be concerned with our own actions or someone else's actions rather than being concerned with a hilarious pile of text. Be concerned only with actions.

IMO, the people who don't take the texts seriously are even bigger idiots. History is meant to be repeated if ignored.

yup, really better if ignored. We get rid of prejudices and corruption. Back to the vedic age.

@Rhitwick : Everybody is free to agree or disagree with me. I understand your point, but I have debated this on hardcore muslim forums as well with the same result. The persians called the people of aryvarta as Hindus, i.e a name imposed by foreigners and then wiseguys are calling it "Yindoos" unable to discuss on the substance. Like I said, does it matter what you call an ocean?


IMO, the people who don't take the texts seriously are even bigger idiots. History is meant to be repeated if ignored. It is for this reason there was a stress on smritis as well i.e the texts which are to be remembered. Only if the people are educated about the texts of Satyakama Jabala, the Bharata, Mahabharat etc which provide an insight and wisdom as well and the essence of varna and compare it to the ideals of shrutis or an objective mind , there wouldn't be any division or discrimination in the society regarding OBC/SC/ST in the first place. The studies of texts in the west is called "comparative studies". It is from the studies of sanskrit literature that westerners have known the scientific and integral essence of sanskrit. It is from the studies of these shrutis which has actually influenced the world's most revolutionary scientists like Nikolas Tesla, Heisenberg etc.


Straight from the horses mouth : Eminent Supporters and Upholders of Hinduism


Had people foreigners behaved and concluded on sanskrit with the same attitude, then obviously it might have been similarly called the language of monkeys. Whatever one wants to call as hilarious is subjective to him. But unawareness about shrutis is certainly a pityful state of ignorance where the people impotent to discuss on the substance have shown that their intellect is limited to only namecalling and judging, like calling the texts as only "hilarious" or calling Hindus as "Yindoos". The role of admins I guess has evolved in the past 5 years from ethically and objectively adminstering to namecalling, asssuming and judging subjectively. These people don't even understand what they are missing on and like many other people are lazy enough to read and quick enough to judge a book by its cover or by the acts of human beings in society as we discussed previously.


Anyways, I have read the Quran and many of the Upanishads, Secret of Vedas and thats why I'm discussing on it and I'm not quoting Quran from any critic site either, but straight from muslim.org which you can verify anytime. If any other person wants to discuss the same, he/she is free to put forward any version of Quran in front. But obviously, I request him/her to read the Gita, Upanishads and Vedas by Aurobindo.


I guess I'm not asking for too much and I haven't surveyed this forum as to who has the upper hand. If anyone has better knowledge, then it is much better or advantageous for me. But reading a text before commenting on it comes under the basic ethics of a discussion which is lacking in most of the people busy commenting.


Imagine lawyers arguing without understanding the law and other fence-sitters commenting on the constitutional knowledge and the situation in the court of law as "People arguing about hilarious texts are as foolish as people who take them seriously".


This is the situation in this forum. People haven't read either the Quran or any of the shrutis, but are still busy commenting and opining and some others mocking the basics of intelligence and ethics.

I know what I read when I wake up each morning and I'll keep that to myself. One doesn't even need to show off/flaunt what all hilarious pile of texts he has read or not. If this implies that I lack an e-penis, then yes I'm impotent.

 

[tripleclutch]

Different programmers created different versions of the same program and described their programs as containing a different code, and saying that their codes came from different sources.
Different programmers= different Gods; different versions= different races; program=human; different code=different aspects and beliefs of different religions; sources=religions, and ultimately God

 

[rhitwick]

Why not start reading these yourself ? I bet you will find it intriguing enough.

I hope you were not talking about mediator's posts, because I've read them. About studying them myself....I want to very much as in such debates I fail to compete with someone who those things. Like Mediator. But I don't have time right now, till then...I would try to explain things with my limited knowledge.

I know what I read when I wake up each morning and I'll keep that to myself. One doesn't even need to show off/flaunt what all hilarious pile of texts he has read or not. If this implies that I lack an e-penis, then yes I'm impotent.

This is kinda arrogant. In an argument either you have something to say or you don't. None asked you to flaunt your knowledge. If you are talking about Mediator's posts...his post is valid and relevant. He established his point with proper facts and reference.

 

[rishitells]

This is kinda arrogant. In an argument either you have something to say or you don't. None asked you to flaunt your knowledge. If you are talking about Mediator's posts...his post is valid and relevant. He established his point with proper facts and reference.

+1.
Mediator makes real sense out of his posts, unlike those who proudly post Racist comments to hide their frustration. The so called 'Hilarious Texts' were studied by history's most known scientists like Nicholas Tesla, Albert Einstein, and to name many more.

Source: Nicola Tesla, Albert Einstein and Swami Vivekananda

Nikola Tesla used ancient Sanskrit terminology in his descriptions of natural phenomena. As early as 1891 Tesla described the universe as a kinetic system filled with energy which could be harnessed at any location. His concepts during the following years were greatly influenced by the teachings of Swami Vivekananda. Swami Vivekananda was the first of a succession of eastern yogi's who brought Vedic philosophy and religion to the west. After meeting the Swami and after continued study of the Eastern view of the mechanisms driving the material world, Tesla began using the Sanskrit words Akasha, Prana, and the concept of a luminiferous ether to describe the source, existence and construction of matter. This paper will trace the development of Tesla's understanding of Vedic Science, his correspondence with Lord Kelvin concerning these matters, and the relation between Tesla and Walter Russell and other turn of the century scientists concerning advanced understanding of physics. Finally, after being obscured for many years, the author will give a description of what he believes is the the pre-requisite for the free energy systems envisioned by Tesla.

Read the full article posted above, before judging something out of sheer ignorance.

Documentary on Tesla.
Tesla's Interest in Vedic Works

And a well known statement by Elbert Einstein -
"When I read the Bhagavad-Gita and reflect about how God created this universe everything else seems so superfluous.”

For the ignorant beings here, a Must Watch. Listen without any prejudices. -

Rajiv Malhotra Lecture at Bhabha Atomic Research Center, Mumbai

Even after this, It's really sad how people go up to any extent to demean the Indian Science, without really understanding the essence, and sheer 'practical importance'.

Below are the excerpts from the book 'The Cosmic Matrix' by Rishi Kumar Mishra, just to share the wonderful insights of the author on Vedic Science. Do read it in order to really understand the essense of Indian Science.

The Universe of Modern Science - An Overview

The modern scientist deals with the physical universe of which we are a part, while the rishi or seer-scientist deals with the supraphysical universe of which the physical universe is a part. Whereas modern science uses the tools of observation, hypothesis, experimentation and conclusions, the seer-scientists go beyond the limitations of these tools. The modern scientist tells us, on the basis of her or his observation, experimentation and analysis, how this universe came into being and how creation took place. The seer-scientists help and guide us to discover these truths for ourselves, indicating that human beings have an enormous untapped potential to realise this Truth or Ultimate Reality for ourselves.

Modern scientists tend to dismiss all that is outside their domain as 'metaphysical'. An average but avid member of this clan claims to adhere to reason and rationality, and decries all that eludes her or his framework as 'irrational' and 'superstitious'. Yet there is an increasing number of noble exceptions in the world of modern science, people who acknowledge the limitations of their efforts and recognise the challenges and complexities with which modern science is finding it increasingly difficult to cope. This increasing number of knowledgeable people, who are not fundamentalist 'believers' of modern science, recognise that science is an ongoing process which never ends. There is no single Ultimate Truth to be achieved, after which all the scientists can retire.

It is fitting to begin by rejecting the belief that the ancient insights of the seer-scientists were the product of mere speculation. The rishis 'saw' the Truth after considerable experimentation and 'scientific' investigation. It is difficult to repeat those experiments today, largely because the physical and intellectual training required for them has disappeared. No trainers and teachers exist nowadays who could prepare the seeker for those experiments. This problem is compounded by the fact that a large number of theoretical works have been destroyed or have otherwise vanished.

However, the practical applications of those theoretical formulations, some of which are in vogue even now, provide sufficient indication of their validity and feasibility. These indications are available in the areas of astronomy, linguistics, musicology, mathematics, engineering, architecture, medical science, psychology, sociology and other fields.

At the ultimate beginning, the energy was so high and dense that all known physical laws broke down. However, the not-so-ultimate beginning can be explored by simple extrapolations of results obtained at the frontiers of quantum physics. Although the vast majority of particle physicists consider Quantum Field Theory as the best theory to date, it is still far from scientifically proven to be correct in all its details. According to this Quantum Field Theory model, a small fraction of a second after the 'beginning', many kinds of particles and their anti-particles roamed about in equal amounts and collided with each other, immersed in tremendous heat.

Scientific cosmology can contain no hint of the idea that the world was constructed by some being who is not a part of it. When we come upon something beautifully or intricately structured, it is our most natural impulse to ask, "Who made it?" Scientific cosmology demands that we learn to give up this impulse if we are to follow its path. Since by definition there can be nothing outside the universe, a scientific cosmology must be based on the notion that the universe made itself. Western religious beliefs envisage the beginning of creation and the coming into being of the cosmos at a particular moment. They were events. However, quantum cosmology has upset this apple-cart with the important implication that there was no beginning. Rather, there were increasingly large 'Big Bangs', and the multiverse - that is, the existence of numerous universes - goes on forever. This removes the necessity of grappling with the question of what existed, if anything, before the Bang. The multiverse has just been here all along, according to quantum cosmologists.

 

[Faun]

I hope you were not talking about mediator's posts, because I've read them. About studying them myself....I want to very much as in such debates I fail to compete with someone who those things. Like Mediator. But I don't have time right now, till then...I would try to explain things with my limited knowledge.

Here is the link with 3 translations, if you have time then do read.
Center for Muslim-Jewish Engagement

The three translators are the most widely known and revered.
Abdullah Yusuf Ali - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Marmaduke Pickthall - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Muhammad Habib Shakir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Further to extend your knowledge, don't forget to read Hadiths and Sunnahs. Esp Shahi Bukhari
Center for Muslim-Jewish Engagement

 

[skeletor]

This is kinda arrogant. In an argument either you have something to say or you don't. None asked you to flaunt your knowledge. If you are talking about Mediator's posts...his post is valid and relevant. He established his point with proper facts and reference.

"People arguing about hilarious texts are as foolish as people who take them seriously." I haven't argued with anyone. May be whatever I am saying concerns him. What he is saying doesn't concern me.

What's there for me to argue anyway? I'm not a proselytiser. I'm only concerned with my actions and actions of people. Nothing else.

 

[way2jatin]

People arguing about hilarious texts are as foolish as people who take them seriously.

i completely agree with this.

some particular texts no matter what noble intentions they were written with... were then (misinterpreted and) used to create a class divide. there is no justification for this and we can see where all our problems arose from... actions.

 

[Hrishi]

Before going into any debate competition or any GD , I am definately going to read this topic once.

IMHO , when we are in trouble the answer will be "GOD" for sure. Science for rest of the situation.

Do we have a third option too ...hmmm say neither Science nor GOd , only Human. ??

Science :- Term coined by human.
God :- Term coined by human.

We made both of them ,so why not we put ourselves in the equation ?

haha I know , its crazy. o.0 newz ignore it.

 

[skeletor]

One way of looking at India - more people than Africa, bit over one-tenth size by land, less resources and equal poverty. And... we suck at sports.

Hilarious texts aren't helping us out and won't help out apart from a personal level. Action is what has influence over everyone. May be people think bigotry will. Sadly any level of bigotry is also of no help to the community/country.

 

[rishitells]

One way of looking at India - more people than Africa, bit over one-tenth size by land, less resources and equal poverty. And... we suck at sports.

Hilarious texts aren't helping us out and won't help out apart from a personal level. Action is what has influence over everyone. May be people think bigotry will. Sadly any level of bigotry is also of no help to the community/country.

This thread is for Science vs God discussion. Not for the discussion the condition of India, or looking at the actions of the people.
Debate about Texts, Scriptures and everything related to Science, Spirituality, Religion is bound to happen here. There are other threads for discussing National topics, as long as they are not deleted.

Sometimes people don't realize they are making a mockery of themselves by repeating their arroagancy again and again, which is certainly a sign of unablility to keep up with the Wise Guys like Mediator.

 

[way2jatin]

This thread is for Science vs God discussion. Not for the discussion the condition of India, or looking at the actions of the people.
Debate about Texts, Scriptures and everything related to Science, Spirituality, Religion is bound to happen here. There are other threads for discussing National topics, as long as they are not deleted.

Sometimes people don't realize they are making a mockery of themselves by repeating their arroagancy again and again, which is certainly a sign of unablility to keep up with the Wise Guys like Mediator.

his sense of spirituality is different. lol.. from what i am reading he is talking more sense than you. he has not even taken potshots at anyone. he has not offended anyone and he is not trying to even offend anyone. you stick to your texts. everyone's 'karma' defines them.

 

[rishitells]

his sense of spirituality is different. lol.. from what i am reading he is talking more sense than you. he has not even taken potshots at anyone. he has not offended anyone and he is not trying to even offend anyone. you stick to your texts. everyone's 'karma' defines them.

Yes, yelling 'Yindoos' again and again and calling the debaters 'Foolish' isn't offensive, but I am, right?

As for 'karma', spirituality and study of Indian Texts only helps me out in refining and improving my 'Karma' for good, if not more. At least they don't teach me to demean and make fun of those who do not have the same viewpoint as mine.

If you have a problem with Texts, no one here is telling you to read them. But try to avoid unwanted replies, which do not concern you at all.

And at last, I can only say 'Sorry' if I mistakenly offended anyone. I am here for a healthy discussion, not for pot-shots.

 

[way2jatin]

lol.. he used that word only once in this topic. why are you considering yourself a 'yindu'? may be he touched a painful nerve.

 

[skeletor]

As for 'karma', spirituality and study of Indian Texts only helps me out in refining and improving my 'Karma' for good, if not more. At least they don't teach me to demean and make fun of those who do not have the same viewpoint as mine.

If you have a problem with Texts, no one here is telling you to read them. But try to avoid unwanted replies, which do not concern you at all.

The 'texts' don't matter in the end. Actions and only actions do.

 

[Anorion]

^You just defined Karma.
Science is not that against God, some recent stupid texts prolly give that impression (eg: Prabhupada). 95% or whatever of all people are theists, includes scientists as well. Nikola Tesla wrote in his autobiography that his life was continuous rapture. The process of invention was spiritual. Einstein said he wants to know God's thoughts, the rest are details.

all of you stop believing pls, want my mind to be God's last sanctuary

 

[rishitells]

The 'texts' don't matter in the end. Actions and only actions do.

Complete agree. And 'This' is the whole philosophy of Bhagwat Gita, the 'Karma Yoga', or the 'Path of Action'. And that's why I believe in Gita. Texts can sometimes, or many times, change your life for good. What if Patanjali would not have written the Yoga Sutras? We would have no access to the great science of Yoga, which the world is going mad over.

And India is not just about it's texts bro, there are huge branches of practical importance such as anatomy and medicine, architecture and town planning, meteorology and astronomy, language and linguistics, music and dance, statecraft and economy, social engineering and jurisprudence, psychology and physiology etc. And all these sciences have their Roots in Vedas, which are not texts, but Shrutis (Please undergo a study about what are Shrutis and Smritis, to understand the essence, before commenting). Indian science is Way Different from Modern Science (Read The Excerpts from the 'Cosmic Matrix' I posted on this page).

And I do agree on the point of Nationalism. Only it can sort thing out in a country like ours.

 

[skeletor]

No one actually understood my posts #1640 and #1642 before jumping to conclusions. I know what I defined. I read one particular book every morning.

But still, what I do, what I see other people doing - I don't relate and "link" that to any text. I don't relate/link myself to anything.

If someone burns/insults the book, it won't matter to me, I won't get offended one bit. It again won't matter to me if someone burns it because another hilarious text is 'telling' him to. Being attached or detached from the essence is also not my point. Understanding the essence doesn't mean you need to be attached. It depends on the other person how he chooses to perceive third person.

If you want to and choose to judge/perceive people, the only way is through their actions and one person at a time or exactly same type of persons at a time. The bold bit is most important.