*** Science Or God? ***
@ Koran a Book of Peace, Not War, Scholars Say
do you know what is common between you two & millions of muslims & other people around the world?you all seems to believe in wahabi brand of islam instead of the original one.this is a problem not just with islam but all religions.religious texts just like everything else created by humans/mortals can be corrupted & in fact it will be.also with no offence to anyone majority of the humans born do not possess the intellectual/spiritual caliber to resist such corruption & which is why it is always some extraordinary individuals on whose shoulders lies the responsibility & their actions determine the course of history.it is just that islam is still waiting for such individuals for last few hundred years unlike other religions & that is why it seems the most extremist as of now.
mediator
Technomancer
I don't know how old you are or if it is you couldn't read my post properly even after quoting me, but I asked for alternate translations for verse 5.51, 5.33, 9.29 of Quran and not 2.190. You'll get tired if I post all the verses I know from muslim.org. But then, just to justify your end, you will start using the translations by Griffith, Bloomsfield, Max muller to show that killing has been done by Indra also and that "Yindoos", like one our admins happily pronounces, worshipped Cows, Horses etc, and embarrass the soul of Vedic seers like Aurobindo even further 
Remember, the fight starts the moment you cannot accommodate other's point of view and "force your own opinion on others". So don't rush in just because your swabhava triggered some reactions. Read my post, slowly and carefully. It is the whole point of "La ilaha Il Alaha, mohammad ur rasool allah" that the "believers" want to impose the word Allah on every one's throat.
If the "believers say, that "Allah is the eaten, the eater and the process of eating and the output of that eating" then it would make sense as every thing in this universe is matter and energy as per modern science and even matter is energy (Refer Quantum Theory). A person (made up of matter and energy), is born from matter and energy, uses matter and energy as food and becomes matter and energy after his death.
When one puts consciousness into the picture of this dance of matter and energy, it becomes a higher concept which is pronounced as brahman as per the Indian science.
More for you, Chapter 5 for the appetizers ---
First, you can see that Quran is full of contradictions as you made it easy for me. Bring me any version of Quran you like for discussion. Secondly, like I stated, Quran preaches attachment to a name and his prophet which further dictates you what to do and who your enemy is. It is not the demons like lust, greed,anger etc as a philosophical mind would understand but jews,christians and infidels. It further divides the society between regions like Israel etc. Thirdly, "my thought better than yours and if others don't obey it then fight them" (9.29) certianly is a breeding ground, a spark of the war no matter what. If others fight to protect themselves, then they will face even more terrible consequences (5.33).
And every body knows, those who leave Islam, are punishable by death e.g Salman Rushdie, Wafa Sultan, Ali Sina, Taslima Nasreen who have been issued fatwas and death sentences by muslim councils.
If it is a discussion between theist/Religion and atheists, then I'd be pro-atheists. If it is atheists and agnostics, then agnostics. But there is a world which lies beyond all these childish distinctions, where the asuras and devtas are the powers of the same infinite, which is indivisible but seems divided because of our conditioning, uncontrolled mind etc. It is this indivisible, infinite, all pervading ocean which the Indian thought advocates which teaches tolerance, where the same nameless ocean can be called be any name (ekam sat vipra bahuda vadanti), where friendship itself is divine and not weighed by childish taggings like "Jews, Christian and infidels". Even friendship with the members of your perceived enemy is divine e.g Ram and Vibhishan.
Please read the bold part from my previous post. Yet it/he/she, i.e the infinite ocean, brahman, purusha, parameshvar etc whatever you'd like to call, is glorified in masculine form in some upanishads, neutar in other and feminine aspect in Devi Purana and as "I/Me" in Gita and Devi Purana as well. The same way can be seen for the hymns dedicated to Indra, Varuna, Vishnu etc in Vedas. There are some upanishads which are flexible in calling the infinite as "it" in some verses and "he" in other verses.
Not woman is He, nor man either, nor yet sexless; but whatsoever body He take, that confineth & preserveth Him. (Svetasvatara Upanishad, 5.10)
It means that the "ideal ocean" is infinite and generates waves like "man, woman, stone, eunuch etc" and hence when viewed from the highest truth it is neither man nor woman neither sexless as it consists of man, woman, eunuch, stone etc. Once you understand the metaphorical and riddle like nature of much of the shrutis, most of the understanding will come automatically to you.
Can Allah see with an equal eye, a believer (muslim), jews, christian, infidel and a goat (Refer Bakr-id)? But even if you disagree with any of the "Yindoo" texts, then you are free to do so as there is no attachment to the knowledge anyhow.
Ending conversation between Arjun and Krishna --
About corruption in shruti texts, it can only be mistranslation and no corruption which has been discussed before. You'd have understood it better had you been a sanskrit literate and why it is being put in computers and why NASA is hiring sanskrit experts. This matter has been discussed before anyways yet this thread continues with the painful reincarnations of the same ignorance.
NASA on Sanskrit & Artificial Intelligence by Rick Briggs
No textual corruption in Vedas - Agniveer
In the Indian thought everyone is free to do as he likes unless it imposes opinions on others. It is the reason why different sages had different interpretations of the same truth like Kena, Katha etc, different scriptures like Vedas, Tantra etc which seem different from different angles, but lead to the same understanding of the truth.
What is the "cause of Allah" which you quoted? Is it the judgment day when the muslims will be asked if they converted an infidel or is it the hatred for Jews, Christians and infidels? Is it the attachment to the name Allah, and making the non-believers and believers fear Allah? The rest of the questions fall under the purview of atheists like "Who is God", "Prove God exists" etc.
According to some, the older the text, the more outdated it is. The newer it is, the purer it is. Some theorise, newer the text the translations are even more authentic and now you come up with a different theory. Interesting! In that case, the readers of Vivek Anand, Aurobindo etc would be even more extremists than the Muslims, as you state, destroying mosques, killing muslims, destroying the muslim equaivalent of Amar Jyoti etc.
Anyways, "the rules of engagement" that you quoted i.e women, children, and innocent civilians are off limits is sadly debunked in Chapter 33 of Quran
I can keep posting endlessly. The question is can your really provide me an alternate translation of the same which deny the same? Like I said, "I asked for alternate translations for verse 5.51, 5.33, 9.29 of Quran and you gave 2.190". 2.190 from muslim.org pretty much say the same as you pointed out.
Please read any version of Quran completely and not out-of-context or random verses, or quote "scholars" to show "Islam is about peace". Scholars and authors also state that Mohammed was a schizophrenic (Just google for sources). Please read and show me which version or translation by any scholar of complete Quran speaks of
1) Detachment from name Allah and his prophet mohammed?
2) Does not mention hatred towards Jews, Christians and infidels?
3) Does not Propogate the "cause of Allah", taxation, judgement day?
4) Chopping of hands, limbs etc? Just a few questions!
-------------
@Rhitwick : Thank You
Remember, the fight starts the moment you cannot accommodate other's point of view and "force your own opinion on others". So don't rush in just because your swabhava triggered some reactions. Read my post, slowly and carefully. It is the whole point of "La ilaha Il Alaha, mohammad ur rasool allah" that the "believers" want to impose the word Allah on every one's throat.
If the "believers say, that "Allah is the eaten, the eater and the process of eating and the output of that eating" then it would make sense as every thing in this universe is matter and energy as per modern science and even matter is energy (Refer Quantum Theory). A person (made up of matter and energy), is born from matter and energy, uses matter and energy as food and becomes matter and energy after his death.
When one puts consciousness into the picture of this dance of matter and energy, it becomes a higher concept which is pronounced as brahman as per the Indian science.
More for you, Chapter 5 for the appetizers ---
Quran_chaper_5 said:
First, you can see that Quran is full of contradictions as you made it easy for me. Bring me any version of Quran you like for discussion. Secondly, like I stated, Quran preaches attachment to a name and his prophet which further dictates you what to do and who your enemy is. It is not the demons like lust, greed,anger etc as a philosophical mind would understand but jews,christians and infidels. It further divides the society between regions like Israel etc. Thirdly, "my thought better than yours and if others don't obey it then fight them" (9.29) certianly is a breeding ground, a spark of the war no matter what. If others fight to protect themselves, then they will face even more terrible consequences (5.33).
And every body knows, those who leave Islam, are punishable by death e.g Salman Rushdie, Wafa Sultan, Ali Sina, Taslima Nasreen who have been issued fatwas and death sentences by muslim councils.
If it is a discussion between theist/Religion and atheists, then I'd be pro-atheists. If it is atheists and agnostics, then agnostics. But there is a world which lies beyond all these childish distinctions, where the asuras and devtas are the powers of the same infinite, which is indivisible but seems divided because of our conditioning, uncontrolled mind etc. It is this indivisible, infinite, all pervading ocean which the Indian thought advocates which teaches tolerance, where the same nameless ocean can be called be any name (ekam sat vipra bahuda vadanti), where friendship itself is divine and not weighed by childish taggings like "Jews, Christian and infidels". Even friendship with the members of your perceived enemy is divine e.g Ram and Vibhishan.
bhagvada-gita said:
Please read the bold part from my previous post. Yet it/he/she, i.e the infinite ocean, brahman, purusha, parameshvar etc whatever you'd like to call, is glorified in masculine form in some upanishads, neutar in other and feminine aspect in Devi Purana and as "I/Me" in Gita and Devi Purana as well. The same way can be seen for the hymns dedicated to Indra, Varuna, Vishnu etc in Vedas. There are some upanishads which are flexible in calling the infinite as "it" in some verses and "he" in other verses.
Not woman is He, nor man either, nor yet sexless; but whatsoever body He take, that confineth & preserveth Him. (Svetasvatara Upanishad, 5.10)
It means that the "ideal ocean" is infinite and generates waves like "man, woman, stone, eunuch etc" and hence when viewed from the highest truth it is neither man nor woman neither sexless as it consists of man, woman, eunuch, stone etc. Once you understand the metaphorical and riddle like nature of much of the shrutis, most of the understanding will come automatically to you.
Can Allah see with an equal eye, a believer (muslim), jews, christian, infidel and a goat (Refer Bakr-id)? But even if you disagree with any of the "Yindoo" texts, then you are free to do so as there is no attachment to the knowledge anyhow.
Ending conversation between Arjun and Krishna --
bhagvad-gita said:
About corruption in shruti texts, it can only be mistranslation and no corruption which has been discussed before. You'd have understood it better had you been a sanskrit literate and why it is being put in computers and why NASA is hiring sanskrit experts. This matter has been discussed before anyways yet this thread continues with the painful reincarnations of the same ignorance.
NASA on Sanskrit & Artificial Intelligence by Rick Briggs
No textual corruption in Vedas - Agniveer
In the Indian thought everyone is free to do as he likes unless it imposes opinions on others. It is the reason why different sages had different interpretations of the same truth like Kena, Katha etc, different scriptures like Vedas, Tantra etc which seem different from different angles, but lead to the same understanding of the truth.
Perhaps, we should put Islam/Quran in a shelf and tell that to the muslims so that they shoud wait for another few hundred years so that extremism doesn't happen?whitestar said:
What is the "cause of Allah" which you quoted? Is it the judgment day when the muslims will be asked if they converted an infidel or is it the hatred for Jews, Christians and infidels? Is it the attachment to the name Allah, and making the non-believers and believers fear Allah? The rest of the questions fall under the purview of atheists like "Who is God", "Prove God exists" etc.
According to some, the older the text, the more outdated it is. The newer it is, the purer it is. Some theorise, newer the text the translations are even more authentic and now you come up with a different theory. Interesting! In that case, the readers of Vivek Anand, Aurobindo etc would be even more extremists than the Muslims, as you state, destroying mosques, killing muslims, destroying the muslim equaivalent of Amar Jyoti etc.
Anyways, "the rules of engagement" that you quoted i.e women, children, and innocent civilians are off limits is sadly debunked in Chapter 33 of Quran
Quran_chapter_33 said:
I can keep posting endlessly. The question is can your really provide me an alternate translation of the same which deny the same? Like I said, "I asked for alternate translations for verse 5.51, 5.33, 9.29 of Quran and you gave 2.190". 2.190 from muslim.org pretty much say the same as you pointed out.
Please read any version of Quran completely and not out-of-context or random verses, or quote "scholars" to show "Islam is about peace". Scholars and authors also state that Mohammed was a schizophrenic (Just google for sources). Please read and show me which version or translation by any scholar of complete Quran speaks of
1) Detachment from name Allah and his prophet mohammed?
2) Does not mention hatred towards Jews, Christians and infidels?
3) Does not Propogate the "cause of Allah", taxation, judgement day?
4) Chopping of hands, limbs etc? Just a few questions!
-------------
@Rhitwick : Thank You
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what we need to change is the things which people have mentioned in this thread - India Says It'll Will Be On Mars By 2013 - [H]ard|Forum (Completely fair comments by some deluded idiots. Nothing related to Mars.)
Arguing over what's written, what has been misinterpreted etc. won't change anything - the present.
As it stands, we are morally and culturally corrupt. If one chooses to live in history/past, then it's his wish. At least use it to progress in the present. There is no denying that we have regressed. Big time.
Unless the country progresses, no one will *understand* what India stands for and stood for.
Arguing over what's written, what has been misinterpreted etc. won't change anything - the present.
As it stands, we are morally and culturally corrupt. If one chooses to live in history/past, then it's his wish. At least use it to progress in the present. There is no denying that we have regressed. Big time.
Unless the country progresses, no one will *understand* what India stands for and stood for.
^^still comments in facepunch forum were better barring a few, considering the crowd there is much younger.
Looks like whole hardforum forum is filled with 12 year olds.
Looks like whole hardforum forum is filled with 12 year olds.
Without questioning and rational debating things will remain in the backyard. Unless people change the books for better, they will still follow the teachings headlong without much thought, resulting into unwanted conflicts.
Every human lives with some prejudice in his head. Questioning and rational debating won't change this.
*twitter.com/panditkmr/status/235752958862708736
In India, only nationalism can sort things out.
rhitwick
Democracy is a myth
@Mediator, this is not right. We do not have an expert or any member of Muslim religion posting in this thread. It is only you who is posting all verses from Quran. Obviously you have a upper hand here as none directly related to Islam is posting here, but your logics are very much one sided. I would really love to hear someone posting some other translations of Quran. Its like you are running alone and claiming you are first.
@mediator,i am a rational person & don't read religious texts so i guess i can not provide you alternate translations of quran.it is just my understanding that those who are not rational can be turned to extremism no matter what the religion.after all its not like no muslim drinks alcohol or indulge in other such activities prohibited by islam.
my statement was particularly about religious texts & if i am not mistaken Dayanand Saraswati gave his call to return to Vedas specifically to address the issue of religious/spiritual corruptness in hinduism over time.btw about vivek anand & aurbindo you just need the "right man" for the "right job".i am very certain that with right amount of information & resources(including knowledge of psychology)it is easy to distort any religious/non-rational/based on views text to convert certain persons to extremism.
Doesn't really matter now even if someone chooses to post a thousand times. May be it made sense for 600 AD because of hostility from the Jewish and Christian cult. Muhammad also went out to form a political entity rather than only a cult. And you need propaganda for this.
Tell me, how many Indians will trust a random and obscure group of Pakistanis? I'd tell you not to. Yeah, prejudice again.
rhitwick
Democracy is a myth
@ico, its about perspective. How do I even know that the verses Mediator posted mean what its written, none tried to cross him, none enough knowledgeable here who can post something else. Thus I wanted to hear other opinions, and that only can some from who practices Islam on daily life. May be, may be he/she would be aware of a bigger picture where this fits.
We do not hold the voice of whole India here so, lets not drag 'em here.
Just because majority decided something is wrong it can't be wrong. Even if the verses were correct or were relevant at 600AD, if Mediator's argument is based on 'em, the counter argument is also relevant. The context and reasons are relevant.
We do not hold the voice of whole India here so, lets not drag 'em here.
My actual point is, all of this is irrelevant in the 21st century. I don't even care about whether this was relevant in 600 AD or not.
People arguing about hilarious texts are as foolish as people who take them seriously.
couldn't have said it better.this is the reason why i don't post mini-essay posts in such threads.
mediator
Technomancer
@Rhitwick : Everybody is free to agree or disagree with me. I understand your point, but I have debated this on hardcore muslim forums as well with the same result. The persians called the people of aryvarta as Hindus, i.e a name imposed by foreigners and then wiseguys are calling it "Yindoos" unable to discuss on the substance. Like I said, does it matter what you call an ocean?
IMO, the people who don't take the texts seriously are even bigger idiots. History is meant to be repeated if ignored. It is for this reason there was a stress on smritis as well i.e the texts which are to be remembered. Only if the people are educated about the texts of Satyakama Jabala, the Bharata, Mahabharat etc which provide an insight and wisdom as well and the essence of varna and compare it to the ideals of shrutis or an objective mind , there wouldn't be any division or discrimination in the society regarding OBC/SC/ST in the first place. The studies of texts in the west is called "comparative studies". It is from the studies of sanskrit literature that westerners have known the scientific and integral essence of sanskrit. It is from the studies of these shrutis which has actually influenced the world's most revolutionary scientists like Nikolas Tesla, Heisenberg etc.
Straight from the horses mouth : Eminent Supporters and Upholders of Hinduism
Had people foreigners behaved and concluded on sanskrit with the same attitude, then obviously it might have been similarly called the language of monkeys. Whatever one wants to call as hilarious is subjective to him. But unawareness about shrutis is certainly a pityful state of ignorance where the people impotent to discuss on the substance have shown that their intellect is limited to only namecalling and judging, like calling the texts as only "hilarious" or calling Hindus as "Yindoos". The role of admins I guess has evolved in the past 5 years from ethically and objectively adminstering to namecalling, asssuming and judging subjectively. These people don't even understand what they are missing on and like many other people are lazy enough to read and quick enough to judge a book by its cover or by the acts of human beings in society as we discussed previously.
Anyways, I have read the Quran and many of the Upanishads, Secret of Vedas and thats why I'm discussing on it and I'm not quoting Quran from any critic site either, but straight from muslim.org which you can verify anytime. If any other person wants to discuss the same, he/she is free to put forward any version of Quran in front. But obviously, I request him/her to read the Gita, Upanishads and Vedas by Aurobindo.
I guess I'm not asking for too much and I haven't surveyed this forum as to who has the upper hand. If anyone has better knowledge, then it is much better or advantageous for me. But reading a text before commenting on it comes under the basic ethics of a discussion which is lacking in most of the people busy commenting.
Imagine lawyers arguing without understanding the law and other fence-sitters commenting on the constitutional knowledge and the situation in the court of law as "People arguing about hilarious texts are as foolish as people who take them seriously".
This is the situation in this forum. People haven't read either the Quran or any of the shrutis, but are still busy commenting and opining and some others mocking the basics of intelligence and ethics.
@Whitestar : I understand and I appreciate your honest statement : "& don't read religious texts so i guess i can not provide you alternate translations of quran". Your thoughts are noble as well. But still I'd request you to read the shrutis, if you are an Indian or want an understanding of the Indian science and if possible any version of Quran you might find authentic or original, if you want to discuss on Quran/Islam.
The Secret of Vedas : *www.sriaurobindoashram.org/ashram/sriauro/downloadpdf.php?id=30
IMO, the people who don't take the texts seriously are even bigger idiots. History is meant to be repeated if ignored. It is for this reason there was a stress on smritis as well i.e the texts which are to be remembered. Only if the people are educated about the texts of Satyakama Jabala, the Bharata, Mahabharat etc which provide an insight and wisdom as well and the essence of varna and compare it to the ideals of shrutis or an objective mind , there wouldn't be any division or discrimination in the society regarding OBC/SC/ST in the first place. The studies of texts in the west is called "comparative studies". It is from the studies of sanskrit literature that westerners have known the scientific and integral essence of sanskrit. It is from the studies of these shrutis which has actually influenced the world's most revolutionary scientists like Nikolas Tesla, Heisenberg etc.
Straight from the horses mouth : Eminent Supporters and Upholders of Hinduism
Had people foreigners behaved and concluded on sanskrit with the same attitude, then obviously it might have been similarly called the language of monkeys. Whatever one wants to call as hilarious is subjective to him. But unawareness about shrutis is certainly a pityful state of ignorance where the people impotent to discuss on the substance have shown that their intellect is limited to only namecalling and judging, like calling the texts as only "hilarious" or calling Hindus as "Yindoos". The role of admins I guess has evolved in the past 5 years from ethically and objectively adminstering to namecalling, asssuming and judging subjectively. These people don't even understand what they are missing on and like many other people are lazy enough to read and quick enough to judge a book by its cover or by the acts of human beings in society as we discussed previously.
Anyways, I have read the Quran and many of the Upanishads, Secret of Vedas and thats why I'm discussing on it and I'm not quoting Quran from any critic site either, but straight from muslim.org which you can verify anytime. If any other person wants to discuss the same, he/she is free to put forward any version of Quran in front. But obviously, I request him/her to read the Gita, Upanishads and Vedas by Aurobindo.
I guess I'm not asking for too much and I haven't surveyed this forum as to who has the upper hand. If anyone has better knowledge, then it is much better or advantageous for me. But reading a text before commenting on it comes under the basic ethics of a discussion which is lacking in most of the people busy commenting.
Imagine lawyers arguing without understanding the law and other fence-sitters commenting on the constitutional knowledge and the situation in the court of law as "People arguing about hilarious texts are as foolish as people who take them seriously".
This is the situation in this forum. People haven't read either the Quran or any of the shrutis, but are still busy commenting and opining and some others mocking the basics of intelligence and ethics.
@Whitestar : I understand and I appreciate your honest statement : "& don't read religious texts so i guess i can not provide you alternate translations of quran". Your thoughts are noble as well. But still I'd request you to read the shrutis, if you are an Indian or want an understanding of the Indian science and if possible any version of Quran you might find authentic or original, if you want to discuss on Quran/Islam.
The Secret of Vedas : *www.sriaurobindoashram.org/ashram/sriauro/downloadpdf.php?id=30
I guess you'll figure out this as well over TCP/IP.
hmm no need to quote religious texts, there's been enough interpretation of them - go read em! sure you can find some things to take away. Have read these texts, and other versions too. Liked Ar-Rehman and Al-Jinn. No matter what the Quran says, most people have a code of conduct that they live their daily lives by. In the most war torn extremist taliban operated area of Afghanistan, a group of Pushtun Villagers still found it fit to help one American Soldier to safety (while shielding him from the Taliban, putting their own lives in danger)
Marcus Luttrell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
think about how everyone would behave if there were cctv cameras everywhere in the world recording everything. at any time, anyone can go back and check who did what. God fearing people live in this world where our actions have permanent and eternal consequences as against being lost in the void.
Also, please avoid Prabhupada version of the Bhagavat Gita, if any of you do get interested in reading those texts. You will see Hare Krishnas selling these in public places.
Marcus Luttrell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
think about how everyone would behave if there were cctv cameras everywhere in the world recording everything. at any time, anyone can go back and check who did what. God fearing people live in this world where our actions have permanent and eternal consequences as against being lost in the void.
Also, please avoid Prabhupada version of the Bhagavat Gita, if any of you do get interested in reading those texts. You will see Hare Krishnas selling these in public places.