'Nirbhaya' case convict interviewed in jail (in 2013)

bssunilreddy

Chosen of the Omnissiah
Can't comment on Britain and USA as i don't live there, but i can look into my country, and i just look at normal people, us, thinking that why we won't rape a women, why and how we came to know the right way to treat the other gender, with respect, and not as an object, and compare it with people like those lawyers whose brains are embedded with beliefs like "We have the best culture. In our culture, there is no place for women." And i find just one answer, EDUCATION, which isn't just going to school and be done with it, but overall education, by the parents, by the teachers on everything we do in our daily life.

Superbly Said buddy.

The Education from 1-12 classes & upwards should have values imbued all over for the opposite gender, sisters, brothers, mother, father (extended family) and society as a whole.
If such values are taught from an early age such heinous crimes will not happen in the future in our great country which is home to Vedas as such.

Verdict for the Delhi 2012 Rapists(including the Juvenile): Death Sentence by Poison Injection.

PS: Complete Rejection for mercy petitions for such crimes should be implemented immediately in our country.

 
OP
GhorMaanas

GhorMaanas

The Vagrant Seeker
atleast one good thing that seems to be coming out of this case is about the defence lawyer's fate now. he's known to have uttered such views earlier publicly, but its only now that he stands to being taken to task by the BCI.

BTW, wouldn't it be a nice idea to shoot another video of mukesh (without any payment, ofc!), this time being showed the footage of the mob-lynching that happened in Nagaland, record his reactions, and broadcast that as well?! another psychology-gauging venture! (#JustInJest) ;)
 
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Faun

Wahahaha~!
Staff member
atleast one good thing that seems to be coming out of this case is about the defence lawyer's fate now. he's known to have uttered such views earlier publicly, but its only now that he stands to being taken to task by the BCI.

Another good thing is that people will think twice before espousing similar opinions as of the convict and the lawyers.
 

icebags

Technomancer

Superbly Said buddy.

The Education from 1-12 classes & upwards should have values imbued all over for the opposite gender, sisters, brothers, mother, father (extended family) and society as a whole.
If such values are taught from an early age such heinous crimes will not happen in the future in our great country which is home to Vedas as such.


your analysis over injecting values into the heads of school children is good :cryeyesout: , but it's doubtful if this can be of any permanent solution. nature has embedded aggressiveness into human males, guess some people will always go rogue and do irresponsible stuff.

aside from teaching values, i think people should also reanalyze & boost up their defensive strategies. outside there lies a very harsh, tough & ruthless world, where only the fittest survive. :|

p.s. i am against controlled, decision based cold headed khoons carried out by society. it wacky to ven think, some people will wake up i the morning, take children to school, go to office, will execute someone by some means, will return back home in the evening & over dinner will say - honey i killed 2 people today, if wife or children ask about how was work......
 
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gemini90

Journeyman
Right now we are just shooting in the dark. Neither do we know nor understand the perpetrators and so not surprisingly we don't know how to tackle with this issue. And on top of that let foreigners wade into troubled waters to dirty it further.

India is a massive subcontinent - it is the nation with the second largest population in the world and soon to be the largest. Finding a handful of extreme fruitcakes who subscribe to the most horrendous beliefs has frankly, never been and would never be a challenge - just given our vast population and immense diversity.

You want me to make a hard-hitting documentary on cannibalism in India - you bet I can find a handful of Aghoris to sign up. You want me to make a tell-all on sex and religion - I can find a handful of Trantric gurus who would be more than happy to spout outrageous (by normal family standards) beliefs on air.

Are you going to jump up and down each time somebody attempts a hit job and claim that the above PROVES rampant cannibalism in India or that Indian culture explicitly encourages the mixing of sex and religion ?

No - what we need first is data from surveys that systematically and scientifically tabulates (not the ones MSM conjures out of thin air during elections) Indian attitudes (whether towards women or religion or caste or whatever attribute) and makes these public on a regular basis. These surveys need to particularly focus on analyzing the difference in attitudes across regions, religions and communities in India - just given the vast differences across the subcontinent.

Once this is done -only then do we have any base data to come to conclusions about where, if any, the problem lies. Solutions would depend crucially on getting the analysis right.

Making documentary serves no use after a week or two apart from bringing an award and resultant limelight to the director and co.

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Meanwhile the following article has been removed from HT

*s30.postimg.org/ckkdg112p/htcap.png
 

ratul

█████████████████
India is a massive subcontinent - it is the nation with the second largest population in the world and soon to be the largest. Finding a handful of extreme fruitcakes who subscribe to the most horrendous beliefs has frankly, never been and would never be a challenge - just given our vast population and immense diversity.

Yes, india is a massive subcontinent, but these things are not that rare as you say, take this incident from today itself: Man held for brutalising 6-year-old girl in Gujarat | Zee News
Do you really think that these are just "handful of extreme fruitcakes"?? Inserting rod into a f**** 6-yr old? :-x Just go to a village and talk to a normal person there, they will tell you how common "rapes" are in most of the indian villages, what happens in the "khet", what they think of women there. I speak from experience, as told by some of my college mates, those which did came from those villages, and how education changed them from the others in their village.
 

gemini90

Journeyman
[MENTION=122731]ratul[/MENTION] And let me give you a differing viewpoint. There is a difference between holding to beliefs and traditions which are past sell-by date and committing rapes. In the case of former, the society itself will have to move forward while in the case of latter, state has a major role to play else that case of lynching an undertrial (Acc. to reports in which SP said that it was a false case) in Nagaland will become a common occurrence.

I have my roots in Bundelkhand in UP which is the one of the most backward regions in country. Holding traditional beliefs against the historical background with respect to woman is common. But go and pass a lewd comment against any womanfolk. The villagers will beat you black and blue. Are we not again stereotyping our rural folks?
 

Anorion

Sith Lord
Staff member
Admin
Oh god.

There is no western conspiracy to defame the country.

How sensitive the media is to suffering, and the kind of visuals chosen to portray this suffering is different. Maybe they tend to zoom in more when a brown man is suffering. This is not some global conspiracy, at most it is just a bias in the way media operates. This happens openly and continuously with our own channels, where we try to get in as close as possible and don't keep a respectable distance from grief. However don't think it is something to worry about unduly because the content is clear, the meta is not so distracting from that.

Paying the interviewed parties is a standard procedure. Many documentaries, and TV interview series, and even YouTube documentary channels are conducted in this way. There is nothing wrong in this, this is a long established journalism tradition.

In India, the current laws does not allow for the girl to be named. Which is why the documentary is banned. The need, or relevance of this rule, or the inherent misogyny in the wording of the laws is up for debate, but at the moment, it is illegal.
 

Nanducob

Wise Old Owl
[MENTION=122731]ratul[/MENTION] If education were to solve the problem, neither would Britain been leading the field in pedophilia and nor usa in rape (and campus rape is an exclusive contribution by them). Societies there said to be much more enlightened than ours.

so what is the cause of rapes according to you?
 

gemini90

Journeyman
[MENTION=56202]Anorion[/MENTION]

Documentary is a hit job. It was illegal to begin with and it was telecasted illegally and watching it is also illegal. Better lessons are learnt by reading Justice Verma report than watching a sick illegal documentary meant for commercial purposes under the guise of societal do-goodness.

Anjali Bhushan, co-producer of Indias' Daughter, speaks out: Full statement

www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/anjali-bhushan-co-producer-of-indias-daughter-speaks-out-full-statement/article1-1323775.aspx+&cd=12&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=in]Anjali Bhushan, co-producer of Indias' Daughter, speaks out: Full statement[/url]

Make no mistake. Rape is a heinous crime. When public anger over the Nirbhaya incident boiled over, the question which confronted our society was how a human being could be driven to commit acts of such depravity. Although, it is said that the moral compass of all criminals is skewed the brutality of this incident made it necessary from a social viewpoint to examine the question of where such behaviour stems from.

The documentary "India's Daughter" was therefore conceived to serve a social cause which was unfortunately overshadowed by the self-promoting agenda of my collaborator, Ms. Leslee Udwin. I had fallen out with her by the time that the principle photography of the film was completed and was conveniently excluded from the final edits. Subsequently, her attempt to exploit the subject matter of the documentary in a self-advancing attempt to sensationalize the content has not only brought disrepute to my profession and the country but also resulted in hurting the sentiments of the victims of rape who would invariably be exposed to the film. Granted editorial and journalistic privilege, there is also a particular sensibility that should be a guiding factor as an ethical standard. This is the same sensibility because of which the international media decides against telecasting the brutal immolation of a Jordanian pilot by terrorists. The social message which is the very essence of the film I wanted to make is now lost in the unfortunate controversy which has followed. When one edits several hours of footage, it is this sensibility, suitably deployed, which comes into play. It was this 'sensibility' which I was not able to exercise having been prevented by Ms. Leslee Udwin from participating in the post-assembly review of the film. And it was the lack of exercise of this 'sensibility' on her part, (having denied herself of my input as an Indian woman), in a cynical attempt to capture eyeballs and headlines which has led to the unfortunate controversy which will continue to cast a shadow on her career as a film maker.

The story does not end here. Regardless of her lack of sensibilities and judgment, Ms. Udwin knowingly and cynically breached the conditions and undertakings under which the permissions were granted. It was clear right at the outset that the permission to shoot the documentary was conditional upon the viewing of the unedited footage and the final cut by the authorities. Having completed the shooting, Ms. Udwin arrogantly refused to comply. On being shown snippets of the film, the authorities at Tihar Prisons had categorically stated that the comments of the convict were objectionable. The authorities further asked for the full i.e. unedited film to be able to review the same in the proper context. It was reiterated that the film should not be released till it is approved by the prison authorities and the Ministry.

When Ms. Udwin categorically refuted this demand by Tihar Prisons, I was horrified especially since I had repeatedly pleaded with her to comply with all conditions and formalities. Ultimately, in September 2014, I received a letter from Ms. Udwin's lawyers terminating our agreements. One of the grounds of termination was that my warnings had in fact led to the DG (Prisons) sending a legal notice to her company on the grounds of breach of permissions granted by the jail authorities!


Subsequently, when I accidently stumbled upon the fact that plans to release the documentary were afoot, I was both angry and surprised, since I had been informed that the BBC will not air the documentary until the Supreme Court hearings were over. I immediately proceeded to warn the media houses planning to telecast the film, both about the fact that permission to do so had not been received and also the fact that the matter was still sub judice.

That despite my warnings the documentary, which includes an abominable portrayal of the issue, was still aired is a sad reflection of the triumph of the personal ambition of a producer who valued publicity and international recognition over the social agenda of the entire production.

(This is the full statement of co-producer of controversial documentary "India's Daughter". Views expressed are personal

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[MENTION=128807]Nanducob[/MENTION] See post no 85
 

Nanducob

Wise Old Owl
your analysis over injecting values into the heads of school children is good :cryeyesout: , but it's doubtful if this can be of any permanent solution. nature has embedded aggressiveness into human males, guess some people will always go rogue and do irresponsible stuff..

[MENTION=56202]

[MENTION=128807]Nanducob[/MENTION] See post no 85

Hm..We are called humans because we all follow a moral 'code of conduct' that cant be found in other animal lives.That decision to overcome an urge comes from the understanding of what would be a potential right or wrong.It can only be acheived through education,weather from schools or relatives or even counselling.Being Aggressive is a poor excuse ,We all have outlived our primitive traits to be considered as beasts
 

icebags

Technomancer
Hm..We are called humans because we all follow a moral 'code of conduct' that cant be found in other animal lives.That decision to overcome an urge comes from the understanding of what would be a potential right or wrong.It can only be acheived through education,weather from schools or relatives or even counselling.Being Aggressive is a poor excuse ,We all have outlived our primitive traits to be considered as beasts

well, recently some peoples action remind me of middle age barbaric human behaviors, when people used to be hanged, burned in public, without any trial or anything. i still keep thinking, are we living in 21st century or 12th century ?
 

Nanducob

Wise Old Owl
well, recently some peoples action remind me of middle age barbaric human behaviors, when people used to be hanged, burned in public, without any trial or anything. i still keep thinking, are we living in 21st century or 12th century ?

there is no difference between that rapist and that Nagaland mob who beat him to death,they both live in 12 th century
 

Faun

Wahahaha~!
Staff member
For one thing, if I were born and brought up in village, I'd have become what I am afraid of. The kind of things I have seen happening there to others is nothing good to tell about.

Empowered women and progressive thinking on men's part is crucial for sound upbringing of new generation.
 

kg11sgbg

Indian Railways - The Vibrant and Moving INDIA
Hm..We are called humans because we all follow a moral 'code of conduct' that cant be found in other animal lives.That decision to overcome an urge comes from the understanding of what would be a potential right or wrong.It can only be acheived through education,weather from schools or relatives or even counselling.Being Aggressive is a poor excuse ,We all have outlived our primitive traits to be considered as beasts
We are still the raw beast inside,with only a superficial wrap around our characteristics in the name of so called improper educational degrees or the so called sub/poor/un-educated level of representation.
True Love,awareness, care, self-restraint and disciplined attitude is very poorly embedded in our so called moral values and ethics.
In that way animals are far better than us,because they follow and obey the strict law of the jungle,kills(not murders) for their food,mate(not rape)to go on with the law of nature and evolution...
 

Faun

Wahahaha~!
Staff member
We are still the raw beast inside,with only a superficial wrap around our characteristics in the name of so called improper educational degrees or the so called sub/poor/un-educated level of representation.
True Love,awareness, care, self-restraint and disciplined attitude is very poorly embedded in our so called moral values and ethics.
In that way animals are far better than us,because they follow and obey the strict law of the jungle,kills(not murders) for their food,mate(not rape)to go on with the law of nature and evolution...

Animals kill for fun too. And rape happens too.
 

gemini90

Journeyman
You know, I now get it why the rural folks stereotype us city people too, and why we most likely don't understand either their support/non-support for Land bill too.

Meanwhile this is a good article :

Perception And Propriety: The Problem With ‘India’s Daughter’ by Ajay Kumar (Bombay High Court Advocate)

Perception And Propriety: The Problem With ?India?s Daughter? | Swarajya

In this piece, I will deal with the problem in a two-fold manner. At the outset, I will address the problems with the documentary from a purely factual point of view and in the second part I will discuss the issues of legality and more importantly, propriety.

A) The issue of the facts

The documentary doesn’t once let us know the questions that the alleged rapists and their advocates are being asked. All we have are broken statements from what is admittedly a six-hour interview. Further, the fact that there is no flow between the statements does make one question if they were put there only for their controversial value.

The alleged aim of this documentary is to examine the attitudes that led to the incident in Delhi during the December of 2012. However, not once are we told if the views expressed by those being interviewed are actually the views held by the average Joe. I’m inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt here and say that, perhaps, these do reflect the attitudes of the average Joe. Even if they do, is there any merit that can be gained from putting limited excerpts of an interview out there? If you want the nation to know how the alleged rapists think, then show us the full interview, including the questions that were put to them.

For example, if someone were to ask me the question, “what were politicians and leader’s saying as a reaction to what happened?”, then I would probably give the same answer Mukesh Singh gave. That’s why context is important.

Context further becomes important to judge the motivations behind something like this. Without context, the entire interview with the prisoners and their advocates seems like nothing but voyuerism and an attempt to market a film by playing on genuine outrage that this country felt about the December incident.

Now to the more problematic of the issues. Mukesh Singh is currently on Death Row. The entire nation has expressed that eventually it would enjoy seeing him hanged. There is evidence to show that those under death row exist in a world of delusion, perhaps as a way of coping with their fate. Most try to find a way to justify their innocence to themselves. We don’t know if these are the views of Mukesh Singh, the man who allegedly committed the incident of December 2012 or Mukesh Singh the condemned prisoner awaiting the hangman. The veracity of these statements needs to be brought into question.

Lastly, if we are to assume that Mukesh Singh was indeed speaking the truth, then it becomes quite clear that we can’t hang him. Through the interview he sticks to the facts and says he was ALWAYS at the wheel of the bus. This means that he didn’t rape the victim and did not participate in her killing. This basically means that Mukesh Singh should not hang as he was only driving the bus. He didn’t rape nor murder.

Was he an accomplice? Was he a co-conspirator? Can we believe what he is saying? We don’t know because this documentary just shows us clips of what clearly appears to be an extended interview.

This is why we critique this documentary as being nothing more than a voyueristic exercise. No actual information or good was conveyed by it.

B) The issues of propriety

Mukesh Singh’s appeal is currently pending in the Supreme Court. India has what is known as the “rarest of rare” test when it comes to determining if a crime is worthy of the death penalty or not. One of the key elements of that test is if the crime shocks the conscience of society or not. This is a factual test. The facts need to be weighed. I don’t think a longer explanation is required to establish if the airing of this documentary will affect the pending appeal or not.

More importantly, this was pointed out to the BBC and the director. They were well aware of the fact that an appeal was pending. Yet the entire documentary discusses nothing but facts. Factual circumstances that led to the incident, the facts behind the incident and the consequences thereof. These are facts that are clearly in dispute. The accused continue to maintain that they are not-guilty in their appeals. How will sharing alleged factual information, about facts that are in dispute not affect the judicial process?

The truth of the matter though is this. If Mukesh Singh was a white man on death row in England, I’m pretty sure the BBC wouldn’t air documentary discussing the factual circumstances of his case while his appeal was pending. It becomes okay when the accused is brown. When western countries try to discuss India-related issues, it is important that they express not just the issue, but also the context behind it, the process that is involved. These standards often change when it comes to brown people. This is perhaps what is most offensive about this documentary. Here you have a British filmmaker, who apparently spent two years in India trying to get to the bottom of this case, deciding that it is not worth it to wait for the process to finish.

The Supreme Court should be seized of this matter by the end of this year (hopefully). Was it not possible to wait till 2016 so the process is over? Was it absolutely necessary to air the documentary when the Government of India expressed grave reservations about it on the grounds that it could affect the appeal? Further, feminists across this country have been saying that the film should have been released after the appeal was over. Did it really make sense to air it now?

Perhaps the outrage is because, the only real victory from the protests after the incident was law reform. We finally managed to get a committee to make recommendations and amend the law relating to sexual violence. (Something the film conveniently ignores) By going after the process and expressing contempt towards the same, the BBC and the director have done only one thing. They have tried to say that those protests were worthless.

But this is not true. The incident did change India, we are now discussing sexual violence openly. Taxi drivers have spoken to me at length many times about the patriarchy, something that would have been unheard of earlier. Women are finally being seen as People in India. This is after an extremely long and painful struggle to make this happen.

All this film does is relegate them to the status of being “Daughters”, albeit “India’s Daughters”.

India’s Daughter: An Indian Daughter’s Opinion

India?s Daughter: An Indian Daughter?s Opinion | Swarajya

What do films like “India’s Daughter” end up achieving?

In my opinion, films like these end up giving fodder to susceptible sections of the social elite, especially the most radicalized, vital-sensationalist minds, to mindlessly start generalizing about a whole society and culture on the basis of the most vile, vicious thought uttered by someone like the convict who was interviewed for this film.

Already I have seen more than enough of status updates on Facebook about how misogynist the whole of Indian society is, how horrible the attitudes of Indian men are, how women are abused left and right in India, etc. etc. And I am not on Twitter, which I am sure will be even worse. And of course, then there is our mainstream media which I am sure will be giving undue and unnecessary publicity to this whole thing.

We all know one evil-minded convict’s opinion about attitudes toward women should not and cannot say anything about a huge society like India. And yet, that’s how the dice roll in the sensationalism-loving, TRP-obsessed, media-crazy world of today. The end result is that more young and impressionable minds get alienated from their cultural/societal roots because they are most susceptible to the media-constructed realities of what their society is like. This is most unfortunate, really.

Looking at this thread, she is right.
 
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Flash

Lost in speed
We all know one evil-minded convict’s opinion about attitudes toward women should not and cannot say anything about a huge society like India. And yet, that’s how the dice roll in the sensationalism-loving, TRP-obsessed, media-crazy world of today.
That's 100% true. Indian media, especially like NDTV/Times Now is purely based on TRP. If they find an issue sensational or interest provoking, they will just put that particular news on loop without verifying whether the information they've obtained is true or not.
 
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