@Ratul : Though i appreciate your views. But can you tell me where is the boundary of the universe? How far? If it has boundary, then whats beyond that? Does that has a boundary too? If it has a shape, form, boundary, then is it rotating itself and revolving around something higher. Does that has a boundary too? Is that also revolving around something higher? If you understand these questions, then you'd understand as well that these questions will go on recursively. Hence infinitely. Logically, universe is infinite! Now not many people actually understand infinite, even though they have read about it. If you understand infinite, then you'd understand that infinite "cannot be analyzed". You cannot divide, multiply, add, divide it by a finite number to get a different result. Once you understand that, you'd also understand that infinite has no beginning, no end. There the question comes, when did this infinite come into being? A different aspect concerning time has come into picture which by the same reasoning, makes it timeless. If you go by the shape, then also, by the same reasoning, it becomes shapeless, formless. Hence upanishads say, it is timeless, yet seems to exhibit time, formless yet seem to exhibit forms. Why?
How much can your senses analyze? Understand that your eyes are like HD widescreen, but yet limited. They can only absorb a limited environment. Same goes for ears, they cannot hear highest or lowest frequencies, sounds from distant places etc. This limitedness is absorbed by the senses and hence giving an illusion of limitedness.
Your body is a collection of energy and matter, uses energy and matter and dissolves into energy and matter. Thus, what makes us think that we are apart from the nature?
When a man liberated, free from attachment, with his mind, heart and spirit firmly founded in self-knowledge, does works as sacrifice, all his work is dissolved. Brahman is the giving, Brahman is the food-offering, by Brahman it is offered into the Brahman fire, Brahman is that which is to be attained by samadhi in Brahman-action. ( BG 4.23-24)
Therefore, understand that there is a reason behind why it is called eternal, timeless, infinite, unmanifest etc.
I can keep writing, but instead of boring you I'd suggest you to read Aurobindo to go to the profound depths of science and a scientific mind. Mind is just one of the lowers realms, why don't you explore that which speaks to you even in dreams? What is that which gives you ideas even in a peaceful state? That which is beyond all division, taggings, beyond mind, unlimited, infinite and giving us infinite possibilities, different ways to work? Won't you like to experience a thoughtless state? Most cannot control their thoughts even for a second. Aren't you curious, to know the "side effects" of the state that "transforms" if you could control your thoughts and make yourself without thoughts for even 10 minutes freeing yourself from slavery and attachment to senses and sense-objects e.g lust, greed, power etc?
How can you know that 'eternal' by dwelling just in time and space (perceptions of mind), when "that" is beyond "time and space"? Remember, time and movement go hand in hand together. How will you know time if there everything is static (sky doesn't change color, or celestial objects do not move)? Please ponder and experience this! Why is it that when you sleep, you lose all essence of time and space? Yet, you can still experience a world where time and space lose their significance. Does "that" which speaks to you also die when body dies? Can our material science, particle physics ever verify that? The questionings can go and grow more and more, which will enable you to understand "that" which you seek cannot be known by tools of limitedness i.e language, tools based to analyze limitedness, in a limited framework, to establish a limited aim!
Shraddhalu Ranade, only speaks on how then, it was possible for the Vedic seers to know the various sciences, the various levels of matter, consciousness, energy, body, plants etc. You cannot now french, if you assess it using german. Similarly, you cannot know this science that the seers present or used, if you use "modern science" as base or don't decondition or empty yourself from it. If you spent 18 years studying "modern science", then why a quick judgement on vedic science? Don't you think it would be fair if you give it atleast 2-3 years to absorb and understand with the same devotion and concentration (bhakti) you showed for "modern science" or any other area of you expertise?
@Rhitwick : Science and philosophy aren't separate from each other. Philosophy is the mother of all sciences, just like you got your dream car or dream job because of a simple thought of it consciously or sub-consciously. Similarly, the highest experience of "that/he/she" which is explained through riddles in upanishads is coherent and explained through different ways with the "same conclusion". This experience of "rising consciousness' runs through the vedic poetry like an experience, imagery, visualizations. Just like you cannot lift heavy weights in gym on the first go, similarly meditation or consciousness also goes in steps.
1. Indra: It is not now, nor is It tomorrow; who knoweth that which is Supreme and Wonderful? It has motion and action in the consciousness of another, but when It is approached by the thought, It vanishes.
2. Agastya: Why dost thou seek to smite us, O Indra? The Maruts are thy brothers. By them accomplish perfection; slay us not in our struggle.
3. Indra: Why, O my brother Agastya, art thou my friend, yet settest thy thought beyond me? For well do I know how to us thou willest not to give thy mind.
4. Indra: Let them make ready the altar, let them set Agni in blaze in front. It is there, the awakening of the consciousness to Immortality. Let us two extend for thee thy effective sacrifice.
5. Agastya: O Lord of substance over all substances of being, thou art the master in force! O Lord of Love over the powers of love, thou art the strongest to hold in status! Do thou, O lndra, agree with the Maruts, then enjoy the offerings in the ordered method of the Truth
The above is a metaphorical conversation between "devraaj Indra" and seer Agastya who tried to go without the proper steps of raising consciousness to merge into the supreme reality of which the sages describe as "that" or Vishnu or Shiva in Tantras or Shiva Purana, or sat-chit-anand. The above stresses on the "ordered method of the Truth". In my last posts, I already gave the symbology for Agni. Again, it would be better to read Aurobindo!
Once you understand this science of "self" or atma-gyan, you'd also understand it is a tool for detachment from what call as "faith and belief", and path towards realization, or transcension from the world of dynamism to seek the permanence. How can anything which is based on questioning, perfect mind control and detachment be having any subsets for "faith and belief", a religious sense?
Just like science and religion are poles apart, similarly philosophy and religion are poles apart for "questioning" is basic essence of philosophy with "why, what, where, when, who, if, but" etc.
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RigVedic hymn of creation :
There was neither non-existence nor existence then.
There was neither the realm of space nor the sky which is beyond.
What stirred?
Where?
In whose protection?
Was there water, bottlemlessly deep?
There was neither death nor immortality then.
There was no distinguishing sign of night nor of day.
That One breathed, windless, by its own impulse.
Other than that there was nothing beyond.
Darkness was hidden by darkness in the beginning,
with no distinguishing sign, all this was water.
The life force that was covered with emptiness,
that One arose through the power of heat.
Desire came upon that One in the beginning,
that was the first seed of mind.
Poets seeking in their heart with wisdom
found the bond of existence and non-existence.
Their cord was extended across.
Was there below?
Was there above?
There were seed-placers, there were powers.
There was impulse beneath, there was giving forth above.
Who really knows?
Who will here proclaim it?
Whence was it produced?
Whence is this creation?
The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
Who then knows whence it has arisen?
Whence this creation has arisen
- perhaps it formed itself, or perhaps it did not -
the One who looks down on it,
in the highest heaven, only He knows
or perhaps even He does not know.
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Anyways, you need to understand the basic meaning of Yoga. It simply means to unite or perfect. When used with bhakti i.e bhakti-yog, it means perfection in devotion/surrender. Like I stated before, how can you learn let alone perfect playing a guitar or any science if you do not devote to it? Similarly, karm-yog means perfection in actions. Actually, karma is terminology which is much beyond actions. Similarly, gyan-yog means perfection in knowledge. Again, Gyan is a terminology which is beyond the usage of science today.
The physical excercise that you speak of is just a small part of various "asanas". It is not a physical exercise that one has to sweat over to self-assure that he has done great. Instead, once you understand of what you call as physical exerice, it actually rejuvenates and replenishes you with abundant energy. Its not a "physical exercise" because
- It involves breath control, which is a basic foundation. In gym we are out-of-breath most of the times. Do you call that breath control?
- It involves pure concentration, bhakti as well as gyan as well as karma yog. Hence in Gita, Krishna says, no matter which path you follow, the result is the same, for edison failed 999 times to create a bulb. Karma yog is a side effect of bhakti which ultimately results in gyan yoga. Similarly, gyan yoga perfects bhakti and karma yoga.
Thus, while doing asanas, one has to surrender all his thoughts!
- It Involves "knowing" every experience and snapshot of time and space that your body goes through
- It involves static as well as dynamic elements which may be done sequentially.
Again, you need to know why it has been called "timeless" and the basic meaning of yog to understand the concepts which are based on it.
*www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu9Sq1RvuoA
The realm of "matter" and senses are lowest in the scale of consciousness. So please don't casually judge yoga and meditation as "physical exercises". Please understand th terminologies they are based on, the usage and science which derives them!
Once again for the umpteenth time : Links between Vedas, Upanishads, Tantra and Puranas | Integral Yoga of Sri Aurobindo & The Mother
Let us not judge, rather let know what we are talking and devote the same time to the different subjects we debate! 18+ years to modern science and physical exerice. Atleast we can devote 5 years to yoga, meditation, vedic science?
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saying it to be infinite just means that we don't have any idea (like if i give you a room full of rice, and tell you to count the no. of rice grains in that room, for you it's infinite, but it still has a definite quantity, it's just we are not capable of counting it), but it does'nt mean that it's truly infinite, it has to have some boundaries, but currently it's out of our league to measure it..