*** Science Or God? ***

[skeletor]

Woman born without a cerebellum baffles doctors | CTV News

Man with tiny brain shocks doctors - health - 20 July 2007 - New Scientist

Just tells you how great organic machines are and how adaptable the brain is.

why won't i waver from my stance ? maybe you didn't read all of my previous posts

who can read when you deleted it?

 

[Raaabo]

Did anyone find a link other than a video of claims about a woman without a cerebral cortex, and functioning totally normally? Like scans of her brain and case study? I would think it'd be an I'm feeling lucky link... [MENTION=138559]rish[/MENTION] could you point us to that link of a scientific site that covers such a sensational story?

 

[Anorion]

She had broken motor control throughout her life

 

[skeletor]

Posted wrong link in morning by mistake. (2nd link)

 

[Anorion]

Oh found the link. She had problems.

The woman told doctors that she had had problems walking steadily for most of her life. Her mother reported the woman hadn't been able to stand without assistance until she was four, hadn't learned to walk until she was 7, and had never learned to run or jump. It has also been impossible to understand her speech until she was about six.

Read more: Woman born without a cerebellum baffles doctors | CTV News

 

[Raaabo]

Also, [MENTION=138559]rish[/MENTION] it's interesting. I had heard of Coral Castle, but not this perpetual motion thing. Of course I prefer videos over some text claiming it's being done... but the basic difference is in approach.

I am not at all opposed to finding out that science as we know it today is wrong. In fact the thrill is to find something new and undiscovered.

When I come across something unexplained, I prefer to explain it through logic and current science. If that fails or the information is insufficient, then a leap is required, and it's better to take a small logical leap rather than a large faith based one.

For example, most videos about Coral Castle are for TV or preying on the "Believe it or not" type intrigue. Like I said before, it's far more entertaining to be wowed and think magic, than it is to accept a boring answer. When you make a TV show, you want entertaining not boring. People don't watch lectures, they like intrigue and wild speculation.

It stands to reason then, that most of what you'd find is over the top.

Even that revolving door. Of course it didn't work as well... it was repaired. Almost nothing works as good as new after being repaired. No one ever asked for a NEW door to be made using a new coral stone, they just wanted the old one repaired. The wear and tear that caused the breakdown and damages done when it was still used while breaking down mean that it was not ideal to begin with, why and how would workmen fix a stone? They just attached new metal parts to replace the old one, which they may have had to improvise in because the exact old part would probably not be available... this is what I mean by being a skeptic. First reaction is to use known science and logic to explain something rather than dive into fiction / theories first.

Maybe you have done that already, or maybe you haven't. However the guy himself said he used levers and pulleys. And even allowed himself to be photographed with them. What he didn't allow was people to see him cut stone ever. Or to make the final move. It's breathtaking the devotion he had for this, there's no denying that, and serious respect is deserved just for that.

There's suppositions that he considered gravity to be a magnetic force, and even some linking it to stone henge, the pyramids and the vatican, suggesting that this is all christian in some way... how possible is that to you? It's about as big a leap of faith believing that as it is to believe in "chi".

As an aside, ever wondered why only older stories of a time gone by are the mysteries? Where are the mysteries from 20 years ago?

 

[doomgiver]

i wonder why so called people who experienced it see similar or same things such as they see their own body from a distance or floating in space ,thy see flashes of light.all similar.why can't go other places? u r out of ur body,u can go anywhr u want?

you arent "out of your body". thats why all these things are false.

relativity theory is a "fringe science",thts disgrace to the brilliant scientist .

relativity is a solid, respected field of study. kindly stop posting wrong information. i'd post the proof right now, but i prefer you to dig yourself a deeper hole.

EDIT : I went back and re-read the original post. Please accept my apologies, since I made a mistake in reading what was intended. I'll leave this here un-edited to warn other people of the danger of posting before reading the whole damn post. Keep calm and carry on.

 

[rish1]

Also, [MENTION=138559]rish[/MENTION] it's interesting. I had heard of Coral Castle, but not this perpetual motion thing. Of course I prefer videos over some text claiming it's being done... but the basic difference is in approach.

here it is
Scorch's Replication of Ed Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder - YouTube

and you can find similar replications done by others as well... just search it on youtube .. some comments i have seen referring to different concepts why this works but i am not sure that explains it .. remember before 2003 nobody was able to replicate this device .. and this was done by ed in 1940s .. maybe new theories have come up since 1940 that explains it .. but in his time thing like this was not possible .. so that gives him enough credibility..

and this is only a part of the puzzle .. as you can read these guys are now making other big devices as said by ed

here are some of his theories

LEEDSKALNIN.COM: MAGNETIC CURRENT RESEARCH

I am not at all opposed to finding out that science as we know it today is wrong. In fact the thrill is to find something new and undiscovered.

yes definitely same thing here ..

When I come across something unexplained, I prefer to explain it through logic and current science. If that fails or the information is insufficient, then a leap is required, and it's better to take a small logical leap rather than a large faith based one.

same here .. but i am not talking about faith based one .. its a very valid theory and explanation given by him

For example, most videos about Coral Castle are for TV or preying on the "Believe it or not" type intrigue. Like I said before, it's far more entertaining to be wowed and think magic, than it is to accept a boring answer. When you make a TV show, you want entertaining not boring. People don't watch lectures, they like intrigue and wild speculation.

It stands to reason then, that most of what you'd find is over the top.

yes i agree , most of these youtubers , tv shows will use it to wow people .. take for example that christian vatican crap theory, that is why i am sticking to his theory of magnets and electricity

Even that revolving door. Of course it didn't work as well... it was repaired. Almost nothing works as good as new after being repaired. No one ever asked for a NEW door to be made using a new coral stone, they just wanted the old one repaired. The wear and tear that caused the breakdown and damages done when it was still used while breaking down mean that it was not ideal to begin with, why and how would workmen fix a stone? They just attached new metal parts to replace the old one, which they may have had to improvise in because the exact old part would probably not be available... this is what I mean by being a skeptic. First reaction is to use known science and logic to explain something rather than dive into fiction / theories first.

the mysterious part about that door is that it weighs way too much and is too heavy.. and when it was working fine originally..

only a slight finger push was able to move that door very smoothly .. this indicates like a perfect balance of weight ..

Maybe you have done that already, or maybe you haven't. However the guy himself said he used levers and pulleys. And even allowed himself to be photographed with them. What he didn't allow was people to see him cut stone ever. Or to make the final move. It's breathtaking the devotion he had for this, there's no denying that, and serious respect is deserved just for that.

yes he himself said that but that was only a part of the puzzle .. here is the pic

*ancientaliensdebunked.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Castle_Tripod4-221x300.jpg

see the weight of the man how thin he is , he alone sighleandedly lifting and carving and placing those 20-30 ton stones through these pulleys alone is impossible , it takes crains to lift these heavy rocks.. and if it was that simple why would he be all secretive about it ? the main part happened at night .. moving and placing those stones in perfect harmony , and remember there is no cement or mortar or adhesive used to hold that castle ..


the craftsmanship detail is so skillful and the stones are connected with such precision that no light passes through the joints.

and there was Category 5 hurricane in 1992 that caused major damage to most of south florida

Hurricane Andrew - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and not even 1 rock of this castle moved .. this is not just simple placement.. same is with pyramids of giza, .. that is why they are standing erect today despite going through so many calamities .. shape of that pyramid helps but there is definitely more to that..

There's suppositions that he considered gravity to be a magnetic force, and even some linking it to stone henge, the pyramids and the vatican, suggesting that this is all christian in some way... how possible is that to you? It's about as big a leap of faith believing that as it is to believe in "chi".

i don't know about Stonehenges because i think alternatively that is explainable by wallington method.. as it is a simple structure

but it is definitely related to pyramids of giza .. he said it himself

"I understand the laws of weight and leverage and I know the secrets of the people who built the pyramids (being those at the site at Giza in Egypt)"

"I have discovered the secrets of the pyramids. I have found out how the Egyptians and the ancient builders in Peru, Yucatan, and Asia, with only primitive tools, raised and set in place blocks of stone weighing many tons"

and the famous mystery .. how he was able to move that castle to a different location.. even the truck driver,who's truck was used to shift those stones to another place was never allowed to see how edward was able to load those heavy blocks of stones on trucks single handedly and later unload those stones .. the truck driver was asked to go away..

As an aside, ever wondered why only older stories of a time gone by are the mysteries? Where are the mysteries from 20 years ago?

coral castle was a mystery when it was building , when it was open for public , and when it was completed and has remained the same since then...
as it has been reported that government and scientist visited edward on explanations how he have done it but he did not tell anyone .. and left clues like some numbers

there is far more to this castle and pyramids of giza than simple explanations otherwise it would have already been replicated till now.. in the end it will have a simple explanation just like all science but it won't be explainable by our current understanding of laws..

 

[doomgiver]

1. Yes, EVERYTHING has magnetism, its called Magnetism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia magnetism. Nothing "magic" about it.

2. That block and tackle can lift weights of ~20-30 TONS easily if made of metal. Wooden ones can lift around ~3-9 tons depending on wood, height, bracing and angle of the beams. source : dad has construction engineering experience.

3. No scientist has studied the Coral Castle. Its said right there in the article. 144 is square of 12. Do you wanna know why those things arent replicated in full? Its time consuming. People have INDIVIDUALLY proven how to move/lift/position/dress the stone, and yet you keep complaining that nobody has replicated? You'd have to be CRAZY to redo all that stuff, when you KNOW that you COULD do it (because the methods to do it have already been established).

This is called "not re-inventing the wheel".

I left this discussion because you were hell-bent on spouting nonsense like this. It actually hurts the discussion to keep sticking to a bad point, even though we've given ample evidence against it.

4. that guy who said "i know secrets" : he didnt tell anyone. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA. so, nobody knows if he;s right or wrong. and he took the secret to his grave. nobody benefited. this tells us that he didnt have jack **** to show. lies. all lies.

 

[Raaabo]

Now now doomgiver, have patience. I know in the fight club this is allowed, but exasperation (what you're displaying) often looks like frustration borne of losing an argument, and only prolongs things even further.
[MENTION=138559]rish[/MENTION] if you believe in perpetual machines that youtubers can make but scientists refuse to, at the cost of a Nobel prize and world wide acclaim, then that's cool, it's your belief. There are people who believe the universe is 6000 years old, so be it.

However you really have to let go of this "replicated" argument. No one wants to replicate the pyramids, nor do they want to Coral Castle. It's like saying, "In the olden days, Ram walked from Ayodhya to Lanka, why can't you walk 30 km to work?"

You can, you just don't want to. Maybe you can't. I know I can't walk 30 KM! But that's not to say no one can, it's just not worth the effort. To prove what? That it's possible?

Your argument is like saying if someone walked 6000 km in 20 years he was superhuman, and the proof of that is that no one else has walked 6000 km since! Only recently someone walked 1000 km in 1 year, and thus only now are we beginning to understand the magic... The truth, usually, is that people have better things to do than walk 6000 km. that's all.

 

[rish1]

i am not saying its only youtubers only that can make it.. these are being researched by scientists and ,professors in universities... (
its an interesting effect that needs to be addressed , at best all it does is raises some questions on electromagnetics..
but that alone cannot do anything
the explanation given by edward why this happens will be rejected by any scientist as it is totally different than what is currently believed and it makes extraordinary claims.. he totally discards standard model
and in order to prove his theories , one would require a far greater experiment .. and hence nobody has been able to come up with 1 yet.. research is on .. someone will figure it out eventually ..



i understand your point regarding replication , by replication i didn't mean build a castle or a pyramid ..by replication i mean give a decent theory how he did it using primitive tools addressing all questions.. and demonstrate it by showing a piece of it experimentally
if this gets explained , pyramids will be explained automatically .. and as you might know researchers are still figuring how they did it... that is why there was that article of researchers find out using water under stones can make it move easily, and they showed a piece as a sample .. simply explain like this all questions related to it.
thats how things are explained..

you don't have to walk 6000 kms in 20 years to show that yes you can .. you only have to walk a few kms in some fixed time taking reasonable assumptions and all variables in mind, to show how it can be done..

regarding that girls case .. i tried to search it but couldn't find any link on it.. so this wasn't covered anywhere in news.. might be in medical journal or could be a cooked up case as well.. the maths honors, boy's case which had a 126 IQ is here

*www.rifters.com/real/articles/Science_No-Brain.pdf

nothing much conclusive here.. i think we will have to wait for a much better objectively verifiable case by AWARE study to prove or disprove .. till then i think its pointless to discuss it further ... till then it remains in the realm of anecdotes..
anyways thanks everybody for having a discussion.. bye

 

[snap]

I thought it was common knowledge that pyramid was built with the use of thousands of slaves. Those history channel and 'what if's' shows are really giving some crazy beliefs to people :\

 

[Hrishi]

ideally , how much time it should take to go through this page and understand everything said ? :cough: :cough: , or maybe I should just skip it....never mind.

 

[Raaabo]

the explanation given by edward why this happens will be rejected by any scientist as it is totally different than what is currently believed and it makes extraordinary claims.. he totally discards standard model
and in order to prove his theories , one would require a far greater experiment .. and hence nobody has been able to come up with 1 yet.. research is on .. someone will figure it out eventually ..

Or, science has answered, and the person who even met Einstein and was rejected was just wrong. Science has given the explanations, the people who "believe" in EDL just don't want to listen, expecting an answer to "how could he levitate", and not believing that "He didn't levitate anything, those are school boys with active imaginations playing a prank and making up lies". Since when are schoolboys considered trustworthy witnesses? If schoolboys say they were out walking and were told by Jesus that the world should convert to Born Again Christians, or be prepared to burn in hell, even the Catholics wouldn't believe them... but about Coral Castle, everyone suddenly thinks schoolboys are reliable as steel?

i understand your point regarding replication , by replication i didn't mean build a castle or a pyramid ..by replication i mean give a decent theory how he did it using primitive tools addressing all questions.. and demonstrate it by showing a piece of it experimentally
if this gets explained , pyramids will be explained automatically .. and as you might know researchers are still figuring how they did it... that is why there was that article of researchers find out using water under stones can make it move easily, and they showed a piece as a sample .. simply explain like this all questions related to it.
thats how things are explained..

Egyptian pyramid construction techniques - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I hate quoting wikipedia because the assumption is always that everyone has already read what's on there and needs more info. However, if you read that you will see that the pyramids have already been explained. Not just theory, but practical tests, and with fewer people than is depicted in the egyptian paintings themselves... I mean they told us how, in pictures, inside the very pyramids we wonder about... we still can't believe it?

So, they've shown it for the pyramids, and they've said apply the same logic for everything like this. For coral castle they've said it's using pulleys and loads of spare time and determination, and yes, intricate knowledge of stone work, and even the man who built it said the same... why is it hard to believe then?

you don't have to walk 6000 kms in 20 years to show that yes you can .. you only have to walk a few kms in some fixed time taking reasonable assumptions and all variables in mind, to show how it can be done..

Playing devil's advocate, I can say that although walking a little would explain method, it wouldn't explain sustained effort. If i explain the door, you will say now explain the castle, if I explain that the castle took 10 years, you will say but explain the balancing rocks, if I explain that you will find something else.

Fact: No one saw him work.

Fact: No one could prove that he worked alone (He worked at night, he might have had an army, or 7 dwarves, or friends helping him, maybe the butler did it? And, yes maybe he worked alone.)

Fact: No one can prove that he could levitate stones (burden of proof lies with the maker of a fantastic claim)
Levitate a pebble, and I will believe you can levitate a 4 ton stone. Otherwise it's party tricks, like magicians who hide how they do things. He met Einstein... he hungered for validation. Do you honestly believe if he could levitate 5 ton stones he wouldn't levitate them for Einstein and say "HAH! E= humble pie, explain this!"? Instead he'd take some weird metal thing that temperatures fluctuated very mildly with?

Think logically please... if he couldn't display to Eistein (he himself wrote about not being accepted and trying again and again to contact Einstein with no luck), also didn't on his deathbed reveal his secret to anyone (except admit it was pulleys and levers), thus he didn't use levitation for the stones.

So searching for chi forces to levitate 5 ton stones is already out. He didn't. Some boys made it up as a fantastic tale, which he never denied.

If you start a rumour that I have superhuman powers, I'm not so sure I'd want to end that speculation either. I might quite enjoy the attention and mystique.

regarding that girls case .. i tried to search it but couldn't find any link on it.. so this wasn't covered anywhere in news.. might be in medical journal or could be a cooked up case as well.. the maths honors, boy's case which had a 126 IQ is here

404 Not Found

Now I tried searching for this chap in other texts, and I can't find him, though I found another

Man with tiny brain shocks doctors - health - 20 July 2007 - New Scientist

It's not uncommon, it's a fact that we're only beginning to understand the brain. LIke I said, I wouldn't be totally shocked if we found out we didn't understand anything yet and the world is made up of only chi forces, but please someone prove it before claiming it. At least let it make mathematical sense... Let scientists and mathematicians argue over it for years like big bang or string theory or whatever, and try and punch holes in the math. Let the evidence at least point to part of a theory being right, and no, some rocks on a hill or in someone's backyard aren't evidence. Someone levitating a pebble is, no one seeing and everyonebelieving in a gimmick and a tourist attraction as the secret truth to the whole world reeks of religion and faith and non-science (or nonsense in short).

nothing much conclusive here.. i think we will have to wait for a much better objectively verifiable case by AWARE study to prove or disprove .. till then i think its pointless to discuss it further ... till then it remains in the realm of anecdotes..
anyways thanks everybody for having a discussion.. bye

But that's what I've been saying for ages. It has to be proven, and it isn't, thus its mumbo-jumbo until proven. And please don't compare relativity to coral castle, because one is a "show" (quite literally, it charges an entrance fee) and the other is mathematics that awes even the greatest minds on the planet, even today.

And mathematics has no suppositions, if you work it out, it always leads somewhere, and logically.

Think about this, they both met, one made a castle of stone the other kind of explained the universe -- how the universe exists stably, how small amounts of matter can destroy a city, and how small amounts of matter can power a city... all this we owe him, good bad and ugly. If he said EDL was a quack, that's a leap of faith most people should take I think.

ideally , how much time it should take to go through this page and understand everything said ? :cough: :cough: , or maybe I should just skip it....never mind.

[MENTION=140405]Hrishi[/MENTION] Do, there is no try.

 

[Chetan1991]

This thread really took off since I last posted. Here's possibly my last post on this thread.

My stance is that validity of existence of a God isn't as important as the belief of people in Him, which must be maintained for a sustainable higher civilization.

I'd like the Atheists to watch this video:

[YOUTUBE]TK57RiMqTdk?list=UUZWlSUNDvCCS1hBiXV0zKcA[/YOUTUBE]​

Please watch till the end. If you have time and bandwidth, also the 10 short videos following it. Its about christianity, but explains the concept of God, and its importance in depth.

Its great that you can have moral values and live a virtuous life without any belief in a higher power, but do not presume that every other human can do the same.

I stress the idea of God (regardless of whether He exists or not) should exist because without it, a universal morality does not exist.
The whole world isn't going to simply follow you beliefs, but it will follow a moral code if it's coming from an authority higher than the whole humankind. If the moral codes are fixed, there is minimal chance of someone manipulating them into forcing people into doing wrong things. That's what religion is.

Take for example all the people who follow all these false babas like Nirmal baba etc. They need to believe in something, period, and the world is filled with people like them. If you remove God, they will believe in something else, usually something that leads to evil.

That's why God is necessary for a sustained civilization, and I would like you to first try to understand the concept before trying to dismantle the idea of God.

Oh, and Science, B!tch! Science and God are not mutually exclusive.

Constructive criticism is welcome.

 

[snap]

Din't the prager university guy got his replies by some other weird looking guy some pages back?

 

[doomgiver]

snip

one word for you : ignorant.
one word for the creator of this video : liar.
one word for people who think they "NEED" a god to keep them in cehck everyday else they will go apeshit and kill murder rape everything : mentally sick.

debate depends upon FACTS, you have given ZERO facts, hence, you've lost the debate.

nothing will happen until you provide proof. this thread is finished.

i really pity people who believe in stuff like that. it must be hard to live with such weird notions and ideas.

i dont say this with malice.

 

[Makx]

really? i have seen some thiests here are like whether god exists or not doesnt matter, but we need to have belief in god or religion to control us. Really? r u fking kidding me?

 

[Anorion]

what is wrong with that, it is a pretty old idea
"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him" - Voltaire
it is essentially what is shown in the movie Oh My God! also

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Atheism is a belief as much as theism. So chill out, use respectful language and get off that high horse.

Even Atheists must have an abstract conception of an ideally good human, in a position of power and potency that mankind will eventually reach through progress and development (say the omega point). That idea, what is attracting mankind towards that point, even with the science and rational approaches, is kind of a placeholder for god.

 

[Makx]

really? just beacuse it is a very old idea makes it right?
I am not against someone believing in god/religion. What I am against is preaching god/religion when the one preaching it himself has no belief in it, just because they believe that the society is incapable of controlling itself, if not for the fear of a invisible man in the sky. Isn't that much like what dhongi babas do, preach religion and make money on blind faith of their followers? What about the Flying Spaghetti Monster? And I might need to watch Oh my God! again because that's not the message I got from the film.
And for last I dont see how it is kind of a placeholder for god, Utopia maybe.