Bingo ... we are on the same page
I love how you say that then go on to try and refute everything I say
Also, I don't remember a knighthood, so no more sir business please, I'm just another thinker like everyone else here.
...but actually i try to keep out of any sort of belief or faith stuff and have written it in my previous posts as well..
Take a stance, do it openly, without fear or embarrassment, but admit that it's a stance, not a part of a righteous cause and the only acceptable way to think, and everyone who matters will respect you for it.
ok 1st point .. if you assume it exists
I don't assume it exists, I said it might exist, as might a God (despite increasing proof against it). However, in order to make theories and take leaps of faith (as science does often), a base is needed. A base that holds its own against a test of logic and scientific probing.
it isn't in mainstream science yet that is why it isn't well accepted .. you can read up the research done by dean radin , tom campbell, Pear institute , rhine institute , rupert sheldrake , Stargate Project , Research done by Sony and many more.. but they aren't well accepted in mainstream yet like i said before due to repeatability issues and hard to control ability , not accurate everytime.. but that doesn't mean there aren't any positive results..
Again, you lose me at "mainstream". This is the age of the internet, where cats go viral. Actual proof of telepathy in action would run amock and eat aforementioned cats for breakfast. Look at the big deal they made of that silly brain dead study, with crappy articles written about people being brain dead and then coming back and describing events such as white lights, etc. Brain dead = dead, no one's come back from being "brain dead". They talk of under 3 minutes. That's the average drowning victim who's stopped breathing. Lifeguards save people like that on a daily basis. Of course life guards aren't sitting around asking the survivor questions about their experiences, but something tells me a human mind, especially a religious one, would tend to experience a holy experience when approaching death. Even if they didn't, they'd make one up after awakening...
ahh now i see.. you are having totally wrong understanding here..
Perhaps, or perhaps you haven't got what I'm saying. There are cases where people "wake up" despite anesthesia being administered. Surely you understand that the brain is complex and more subconscious than conscious. All that "use only 10% of your brain" stuff comes from that.
Now think about it, how many times have you woken up from a dream that took a weird twist. Like chatting with your mum in a dream and suddenly your mum grows a siren on her head and her face morphs into a speaker and she starts sounding like an alarm... and then you wake up, and realise your alarm is ringing. I exaggerate, but basically incorporating what your conscious brain was unaware of into a dream.
Now, how about regular morning people (I used to be one, not anymore). How many times have you woken up, started at your alarm, and it starts to ring 10/20 seconds later. You weren't sitting about counting minutes, yet you woke up just BEFORE your alarm could go off? Weird right? Yet happens to people ALL the time.
The problem is you're being wowed by some fancy schmancy terms for really everyday things. We don't understand the human brain well enough yet. Actually we don't understand an ant's brain perfectly yet, and can't build a replica of even that still, not even in software... thus, yes we have a long way to go in that department, and nothing should surprise us. So yes, you may think that the brain dies when the heart stops, or stops functioning, or whatever, but the fact is, it doesn't. What's more likely, quantum waves of magic or science just learnt that the brain doesn't need bloodflow to keep firing and stays alive for longer than we thought, with feebler currents than our equipment can measure...
while in a 0 brain function state it is not possible to create any imagery or have any sort of unconscious experience as per brain = consciousness theory
I think someone posted after your post explaining the difference between brain and respiratory death. Loss of consciousness occurs when the heart stops as that's a higher oxygen need, but subconscious stays active for as long as the brain is not "dead", no doubt in diminishing capacity. I don't have the time unfortunately to do a lot of research, and yes my replies are just off the cuff remarks, so excuse any mistakes that arise from not Googling and rechecking everything, but I remember reading the brain stays "alive" for upto 8/10 minutes after the respiration and heartbeat stop, and then after that 10-15 minutes there is sure to be brain damage, and after 25 minutes or so there's only vegetative state remaining... or something like that. But I'm sure the times given were longer than 3/5 minutes which is what most of those links to NDE were citing.
Since the experiments are not being repeated by 100 more people around the globe with success and scientists aren't jumping up and down making press statements about it, I assume this was another study that perhaps was dubiously funded with less than perfect test procedures. I know if I'd just "discovered" a soul or the afterlife, or new quantum magic waves, I'd be making a noise and trying to get my Nobel prize and global recognition, not quietly sitting in a lab happy with some random churches and bishops quoting me...
that they were actually able to see and listen and describe every event that was happening in that room accurately .. the eyes were closed and ears not functioning and the details were later confirmed by doctors and nurses present in the room .. please give an explanation for this .. ohh and also remember these people are heavily drugged before so even a normal person when he is drugged, senses have a hard time in functioning properly let alone a drugged person ..
For one, the statements made by people in such cases as I've read in the past (and never in scientific journals but only in tabloids) are very generic, "I could smell medicines, I could hear clinking of metal equipment, I felt my body jerk and tighten (electric shock), etc" No one says, I heard the nurse talk to the doctor cutting me open about how she "finally got laid last night, and it was with a homeless, transvestite...but still better than being alone..."
Logic dictates that these people have seen too many episodes of Grey's Anatomy, and done a lot of research on things, and describe things in generic ways the way shows or research videos depict them. I am yet to read a very convincing tale of doctors and nurses filing an official report with a video of the ER (all good hospitals have monitoring equipment, especially those conducting such fantastic research and studies), and a video of the patient in the recovery room waking up and going, "OMG I remember EVERYTHING!" Blur out faces and show us these research videos, they'd go viral. If send this prayer to 10 people things can go viral, I'd surely expect a whatsapp message informing me when god is found...
then these people report that they were more "ALIVE" in this state and totally change their lives and personality around after having those experiences..
Of course, it takes something drastic...
any dream or illusion cannot move this person this much that they become totally different person..
By definition an NDE is during a traumatic time. WAY, WAY, closer to death than I got, for example. If that doesn't change them I'd be shocked. Plus, since it's all chemistry anyway, maybe being dead for 3 minutes does that to people. That's another study waiting to be done, the before and after of people who are dead before being brought back to life...
total personality changes like donating up wealth, while earlier some of them used to be mean people afterwards they start helping other , do more public service and become compassionate people , totally atheist and materialist people start becoming religious etc .. and the best part these people loose the "Fear of death" and become much more peaceful and happy..
What you just described doesn't need near death or out of body experiences. Sometimes it comes with emotional experiences, sometimes with age and a change in chemistry (maturing), etc. Bill Gates is a prime example, and I don't remember reading about any drastic experience with him, or him becoming super religious or whatever...
I know many atheists who don't "fear death" and are happy, many religious people too... heck even terrorists don't fear death, it's not that rare a quality, really. It's just a chemical state that arises out of being assured internally of one's righteousness.
wow thats great you have been through that experience and i can understand why you hold on to that notion of slavery..
sadness is a chemical process but what causes sadness ? but what allowed you to have fear to begin the chemical process of FEAR ?
I'm glad my misery is "great" to you
(I'm kidding I know what you meant, but I am picking on what you typed, because that's what a$$es like me do)
Let me give you another theory based on logic but with no proof whatsoever. This is the one thread on the internet where people who argue against me should allow me that liberty, since that's all they do anyway.
Brainwashed science believers please close your ears and go "la-la-la" loudly for the next 10 minutes.
Like I said before, the brain has two components, conscious and sub-conscious, and they're connected. Think of them as a client-server relationship (this is TDF after all). The client is the conscious, the server the sub-conscious. Both run different OSes, but talk to each other often. They're not as seamlessly connected as our real-world computers are with, say, defined protocols and precise coding.
For creationists: This is because God is actually a stoner geek who likes to code life in his spare time when high, and has thrown in about 2% proper code and 98% of Easter eggs and memory hogging rubbish - which you can call JAVA, if you want.
For evolutionists: Because our brain still has so many remnants of all the evolutionary species we once were, there's a lot of birdsongs and monkey mating calls still rattling about up there...
Despite this imperfect connection, still, somehow things get done. Of course there are glitches galore, and people can sometimes forget even basic things like the spelling of "the", or forget the name of a popular character in a book, and then 1 hour later in a totally random situation shout "Aha, now I remember, her name is Clarice!" -- not the best thing to remember during your own wedding ceremony, but, well that's the way the stoner coded it...
The client tries to constantly control the server, and the server always tries to control the client, and in this tug of war, sometimes one wins, and other times the other. For some things, there's no competition. You cannot read when sleepy. You cannot unlearn how to ride a bike.
Thus, with all this imperfect chemistry at play, sometimes weird things happen, and people go nuts, some become more rational and almost everyone matures. Men become better as the testosterone levels drop slightly after the teens. We call it getting serious. Men and women fall in "love", differently, because the chemistry of our brains are slightly different (sorry feminazis, it's true, we are different).
So basically, we're all different, but all still the same, because you may have different fu**-ups in your head than me, but the truth is we're all fu**ed-up and yet all still "sane". We agree on many things, and disagree on a few. We all agree that rape is bad (majority, not ALL), freedom is good, etc. But that's because of a common upbringing. Someone who has lived in a country with a dictatorship forever might feel that's the best way to live. Billions of Chinese might feel communism is the best way...
How do we find what's right? Expose everyone to everything, try everything, experience it all, travel, see the world, bring differences of opinions together like here and let people decide on their own...
when i raise up my hand , certain part of the brain stimulates and sends an electrical charge to my hand to move muscles and that makes it rise up
when i cut and open the brain and stimulate the same part of brain through an electrode my muscles move and my hand rises up but still i am not the one raising it up .. why ?
if i was a chemical slave wouldn't giving the same chemical or electrical charge to my brain externally make me raise up my hand ?
yet it does not make me do it..
When you click a create new folder button, why is it always called "New Folder", or "New Folder1". You know what folder you want, why doesn't the OS just do it? Because your connection with the OS is through a limited means. A button, a mouse and a keyboard. If it were wired to your conscious brain, it would just create what you thought, as you thought it... the connections between conscious and sub-conscious are different from what we can achieve physically, for now.
However, without doing anything drastic such as cutting up your brain or using electro-shock therapy... think of the movies... You may be a cold and lifeless rock, so I won't assume 100% success, but I can say with some surety, that almost everyone has been moved to tears at some point in their life by some movie. Yes, yes, even macho men who never show feelings have had their eyes well up, and then they push down and bottle up emotions as "real men" should. That's chemistry, making you lose control and do what you normally wouldn't.
you claim that you are a chemical slave .. where is your proof ? its just a theory
consciousness inside the brain is just a theory without any proof !!! and yes scientists have explored all the parts of brain for so many years and tried stimulating every part of it yet they are unable to find the one who is controlling the brain ?
Everything is a theory, even with proof. That's the beauty of science, it isn't perfect. It's a work in progress, based on physical findings, and extrapolations made off of those findings, and often wrong. Just because we haven't found it yet doesn't mean it's inexplicable, or cannot be found. We didn't find out just about anything until a thousand years ago (millions of years after existence), yet in 20 years we've gone from postal communication to this... give it time. Don't consider "not knowing" as a "failure", it's merely an "opportunity" to learn even more.
yes you can make me depressed happy or any feeling by giving pills and drugs.. BUT BUT BUT you cannot make me choose anything i don't want .. even in case of torture / fear or drugging me with anything i would still have to consciously at some level choose myself .. you can't do it .. not at all..
Want to bet? I can make you kill yourself. Assuming you don't want to do that at some level already... it's a 180 on your life philosophy. You might say you would "Never commit suicide" and yet I can make you do it using only chemicals. That's me choosing FOR you. You don't spend 60K on an iPhone unless you've been coaxed into it by some external force.
Of course there are things you choose, but that's based again on your subconscious, your nature. Some people are greedy, others aren't. Whatever external forces went into influencing them that way, it resulted in this "personality". Some is also genetic (again chemical).
You're short and fat, (hypothetically; you could use 8 foot circus freak if you prefer!) because the gene mix you inherited from your parents is short and fat, and thus your world view is from the eyes of a person who grew up being short and fat. Then it's another set called India, part of a larger global set called male, then a city sub-set, a religious set, an education set, a language set... all of this is different experiences causing different chemical reactions to make a compound (a collection of compounds? A compound, compound of compounds?) called "you" which is unique in some ways and kind of ordinary in many more ways.
So it's all out of control, and truly we are "slaves" who cannot be blamed for our actions... NO, I did not mean slave in that way. I meant that chemistry runs us and our "consciousness". The "I think therefore I am" is made possible because of chemistry. And brain chemistry is brilliant, because people can alter it by thinking!
Minor treatments ? really ? what about the guy who needed to have an arthritis surgery .. doctors try to run an experiment with him, gave him fake surgery ( made a cut and stitch it back without performing any surgery )
fooled that guy, that he was being given a real surgery and surprisingly the guy magically heals ? and what above those Countless "Miracles" where people were supposed to die due to cancer , tumors and those stage 4 cancers magically just disappear ?
I hear about these a lot, and no proof ever. It's always tabloids, never scientific journals. Minor and mind-related ailments, yes. For example I've read of people who insisted on pains in their joints and needing surgery, being fooled by methods you described. I am yet to find a credible source that runs a study of people being cured of cancer using faith (monitored by medicine). I would be grateful if people would give inks to actual medical studies if this is happening everywhere suddenly and I'm behind the times (very probable).
you can google it up if you want to all of them are in medical literature...
I did a little before, no credible sources.
watch it on superhumans for demonstration
ohh and if you think its due to some gene .. almost all buddhists monks can do this and not only this they can increase their body temperatures enough to evaporate wet sheets at will .. slow their heart beats, pulse etc some can even stop that at will and achieve a flatline of brain with 0 activity
again are we slaves of chemistry ?
Hearsay. Proof needed please. And yes, living things are a slave to chemistry. I have no doubt that there are intelligent people and people who practise and hone skills to gain better control of aspects of their brain. However, it will take an evolution change to make humans stop being slaves to chemistry.
Why look at monks? There are coders out there who see code in ways most cannot. There's only 1 Messi and 1 Cristiano Ronaldo. Einsteins are scarce too, Newtons even more so... Ever seen strongmen challenges? Hot dog eating competitions where the little Asian guy wins? Humans can do all sorts of stuff with their bodies and minds. Non-buddhists, pork-eating, beer-guzzling, atheist, rednecks can dislocate joints at will and lie on nails and walk on coals, and Brazilian people crucify themselves in the name of Christ, and his "power" makes them not feel pain... Muslims do it for Muharram... explain all that then...
Should we all just believe that the ancients knew everything and thus each will believe that his religion or dogma teaches the only right path, and we stay in status quo... or we accept that it's not religious, and there's no one fixed method or mental state or path to get to that point, but more a chemical state, which is achieved by the brain feeling a certain something, and try and figure that out. Wouldn't it be great for science for you to walk into an operating theatre, put on headphones, and hear a tone that automatically sedates and makes you immune to pain? Chemical reactions using catalysts... sight, sound, touch, etc to cause chemical changes in your brain and body? Feeling acidity? Here watch this video ad for sneakers that also cures acidity!
you are totally misinformed here what do you think yoga is ? a bunch of exercises to reduce weight ?
its hardly physical and almost all of it is mental ...
you should read this
*www.swamij.com/pdf/swami-rama-beyond-biofeedback.pdf
I've not read this but read about Yoga before. It's a nice physical and mental exercise that tries and finds common ways in which to alter the chemistry of your body for beneficial outcomes. Some get the same results from playing with their kids in a park. Others need to run 5 km, some swim, others can achieve the mental state by reading, thinking absolutely nothing, or trying to solve complex math equations... it's all relative.
sir you are mistaking me as some kind of "blind faith religious fanboy" and i can assure you i am anything but that .. did i even say anywhere that i believe in Mahabharat and it knows all secrets ?
Your subconscious adds tones and other markers to what you say, and it suggests that you believe that "your" heritage and history is superior to others. It's OK. That's the case for 99.999% of the world, it's actually very, very normal. However, your conscious mind perhaps believes it is unbiased, which isn't the case and seems to make conflicting statements at times.
were those discovery of ancient batteries fake or made up story ? if those batteries are real doesn't that imply they knew a good amount of stuff ? whats not logical about it ?
Fake, yes, they weren't batteries at all.
have they figured out how did they create egyptian pyramids with precise precision with only simple tools ?
Yes, they have. It's the simplest way to build tall. Kids do it, with small blocks. The advantage they had then was making it a national obsession. It was how cricket is to India in Egypt. Thus they were the best at it. Plus it helps to have a million slaves.
i am saying its simple magnetism and other laws which we don't understand today which they had knowledge...
It's nice and fantastical to believe that "they" knew and understood things we didn't, but the fact is they knew NOTHING compared to what we know. Look at the proof around you. It will take much more than 2000 years to wipe us clean from the planet. How on earth can you subscribe to an old civilisation knowing about radioactivity and magnetism, and yet leaving no proof of it behind. Where are all the metal structures, why stone? Where are the man-made radioactive pits caused by explosions or bomb creation. Where are the plans engraved. If you were to engrave in stone (bothersome and hard), would you describe your society as cows walking on the streets or Mangalyaan?
the only point i was making that "not all ancient people were dumb and stupid" .. thats all.. imagining all of that in that time period would have been a great intellectual accomplishment ..
No one said they were dumb. However if they came to our world they would not teach us, they would die of mental overload trying to understand way too many new concepts that kids of today take for granted. Thus in that sense, and only that sense, they are dumb comparatively to today's scientists, but still brilliant in their own time.
it could be that they used real places and made up a fiction story...
Exactly. You have the right understanding now. Think of ALL the movies set in New York and Washington, and how many times the damn White House and Statue of Liberty have been smashed... Until the explosions, those are actually shot in the real cities... then imagination kicks in... it's been that way for as long as we have had language... from cave paintings to the latest Hollywood big budget blockbuster.
..."if you follow these exercises they will give you X result"... would that religion last ? ...expand your mind and consciousness to give you proof your conscious Mind and Body are seperate...not based on any sort of chemical fear/theory/need to believe/fooling people then i am sorry that's not logical in my books....
There's a chemical reaction that causes you to believe in something. It happens when you are convinced. Every magician on earth right now preys on this. Misdirection, making you feel smart, and then poof, making you feel astounded. That's the way to blow people's minds. Distort reality with tricks. However, it becomes obvious that it's a trick, and that's not someone you believe or follow, that's someone you distrust.
So who or what do you follow? Someone who doesn't make you believe that they're better than you. Not someone who fools you, but someone who makes you believe that others are the fools. Or if not that, then someone who makes you believe that you are improving, you are seeing something that others cannot. The fact that the utter rubbish book, The Secret sold so many million copies is testament to this.
Higher consciousness, as I've been told by yogis and babas and Buddhists from India and Nepal, is more often what I'd describe as a heightened state of awareness. Yes some states have been described to me as what I can only equate to as being stoned out of your mind. And interestingly, many of them smoke pot to achieve this state of mind... this also makes them super-cool to the current gen, and thus I can see why Yoga and stuff catches on in the West. It's not that it's manifold better than, say jogging and doing mental exercises yourself, but it certainly is cooler, and easier, and also a socially accepted pastime.
So what causes people to live in mountains and beg for alms. The need to be different, a little special, impractical? No offense to anyone's beliefs, I'm not saying this choice is a conscious one, just as some kids are obviously doing bad things for attention, some go overboard with good deeds, trying to be always right, overtly honest (to the point of being tattle tails)...
Adults are also as varied: Some do things for others to notice because they feel the need to seem important to the world, while some do things to feel important themselves, and couldn't be bothered what the world thinks.
so lets just say i am an open minded outsider , wherever that leads me ..
That's wonderful and rare if you can pull it off. But it's important to not remain a fence-sitter if you want to get somewhere. No harm in heading down a wrong path and digging deeper, that way if you're wrong, at least you learnt what NOT to believe... Most people become atheists this way, fyi. I haven't met an atheist who hasn't first dug deep into the religion of his/her upbringing looking for answers and eventually finding disappointment... of course some go on to just join science and treat it as a religion, which is also wrong... However, use logic, try simple answers before complex ones, and demand proof and repeat-ability, and you will generally be happier with the answers you get... or so I have experienced for myself...
And what's this about deleting posts? As you've been told. IN the fight club we expect arguments, but you're as entitled to your point of view as I am to mine. Please don't delete things, and especially not out of fear of being banned or whatever, because that will never happen. The only reason I banned Mediator was because of his constant and vocal hatred for some religions, which was causing complaints.
You can say you don't agree with something and why... but calling a religion names and it's followers evil, etc will earn people a ban. Fight, but with respect for one another, that's all
