*** Science Or God? ***

[rhitwick]

Guys, time has come I should post (like I’m someone who was being expected to post) something that I believe is true. I was expecting Karnivore and Mediator to come to some conclusion but it seems they’ve gone too personal, from where independent response is impossible.

The post is going to be a little lengthy, those who are interested, requested to have patience……..karni and mediator, u r used to reading and replyin this kinda posts, u shouldn’t face any problem.

In my opinion God is a concept, a perfect idol that has all the ideal characteristics to be followed. When we are young (till age 8-9) we are taught u shouldn’t do this, should do that…….God will like it or God won’t like it. A lot of advice used to pour upon us like, God helps everyone (means u should help everyone), God doesn’t hurt anyone (means u shouldn’t hurt anyone), telling truth etc……we are supposed to follow that concept and try to be the ideal person……….

Let me go more root of the creation of this God concept………..in ancient ages when we didn’t have any knowledge of what are all the natural incidents like fire, lightning, flood etc. we used to fear them, if lightning struck anyone he/she died………it was something like miracle the person was live and kicking this time but is turned into ashes the next second. How is it possible? Yes we had this habit of questing in that time too, but there was none to answer, so we prepared the answers ourselves. Came to a conclusion that the person might not have died himself, someone must’ve killed him. But who, how, why, why can’t we c him, why can’t we hear, etc. Who= unknown, how=by lightning, why=must be angry on him, why can’t we c=unknown, why can’t hear=unknown. So we decided as so many characteristics are unknown and we can’t even c him, he must not be like us, he must be superior to us, have super powers, can vanish, can play with life threatening things (fire, lightning, water etc). As the incident was related to lightning we named the unknown after lightning, same applied to fire, water, earth etc…..

Then centuries passed we evolved technologically , education system came, which was mainly verbal, little or nothing was scripted then. People who were teacher and practiced these things, knew the truth of this concept and its main reason, but kept mum because till then this God concept was introduced in daily life, business started by God’s name, so many things were associated with it, was very tough to “Déjà Vu”. And more over God concept became very useful to make people frightened……..Just tell anything to anyone, do anything and add “God has told this”………none will ask any question. Everyone was told that God is almighty and thou shouldn’t go against God’s will, if so, something bad will happen to you. Nobody questioned and it became a legend. [Once my teacher told if one false theory is continuing for ages it seems to be truer than the actual truth].

This concept was practiced mostly by people in power. They knew if people start questioning everything that is told or practiced; his position will be in question. That’s why they became allied with people who control these (pandit, priest etc…). These priests or messengers of God or Godmen or men who have direct link with God were not in direct power but helped the then king to be King. That’s why they were given special privileges in all ages.

Then came the time when scripting started. People started writing everything they knew. But these Godmen couldn’t do same like anyone as the truth will bring anarchy. People now have started worshipping the concept like anything, forgot the reasons, ideologies, forgot asking why and how. They became blind followers like if the thing has God associated with it, thou shan’t question. So to prevent this and they wrote books but in form of story and with a lot of God and God related phenomenon in it. Thus born our holy books like Ramayana, Bible, Iliad, Koran etc.

BUT there were people in every age who refused to believe anything that is told to them, they were fed-up with getting the “sky” as answer to all their queries. They risked their life to bring us the truth. Galileo, Socrates died to bring the truth, Newton faced punishment to tell Earth rounds the Sun (it was against Bible u c) etc. Columbus was told why he wants to embark on a journey which doesn’t have any meaning. He was told, why does he want to c what is beyond the c, if God wanted to know us, God would’ve told us. But he did, he dared to ask why not? And he’s still remembered for that.

In any place u go against this question what is true, God or Science, we atheists are very few in number. We ask why, how, when; we irritate people so much by asking these. They are also bored to tell us the same reason for every question, i.e. GOD is in the root of these. That’s why they try to stop us by any means, by any absurd answers.
Who created us?
God.

How?
Don’t know. [But science at least has its version of the procedure of how were we created]

Why are we the only living being in the universe?
God made us and loves us so much (or may be too tired) that he didn’t create another earth. [But science at least has its version of reason why we are only living being in the universe ( or may not be “Only”)]

When did Dinosaur abolished?
God knows. [Science also knows and can tell u at least the probable time]

Why did Dinosaurs abolished?
God killed them. [Science has 2-3 version of the reason which may not be this like one line answers]

Why did God killed them?
Don’t know. He wished to kill, will that stop you questioning. [Science has reasons and would appreciate you for asking more]

How come crocs can live in water and even in land?
God made them like that. [Science can give you answer for that which may not be this like one line answers]

Why do birds fly but we can’t?
God made them like that and he didn’t want us to fly. [Science can give you answer for that which may not be this like one line answers]

That scientist n00b tells that 80% of my brain doesn’t do anything, why?
Ya this will have a few reasons:-

• God made us like that
• He’s a n00b, he doesn’t know anything, all part of our brain is working.
• 20% is for day to day work and 80% is reserved for God (For God’s sake stop questioning!!!) [Science can give you answer for that which may not be like this, which may require ur 20% brain to work more]

whoof........will post more later

 

[mediator]

You know what? I have had this casual conversation with many people just to know what they think. Two of them i.e a friend (science follower) , some guy older than me & an uncle (a theist) in his 40s. Trying to argue with them against their views just to know their opinions n what they think, at the end of the conversation they said, "Well, in the end all that remains is we do our work efficiently. 2morrow we have to go for job n thats whats the ultimate truth."

So @rhitwick, understand the ultimate truth!

 

[Faun]

@rhitwick

Dont you think same is the case with science now. It started well but now its much like selective divulge.

So do you know what is happening in NASA, what they secretly boiling up ? Do you know that every scientist is genuinely working towards welfare or research than just mere fame or money ? Aren't we scavenging on science now, you put anything under the label of science and we accept it. Of course it needs a lot of knowledge in that field to know if its really true or just some shallow proof ?

Like I said if every thing was on default that GOD made it then how come we have Great Pyramids, the sword which Karmanya talked about and various other wonders which were quite impossible to make without an open mind and great technology. Why Mayans did a precise job of making calendar if they knew that GOD wouldn't want it in first place...lolz. Science is not a new phenomenon. Infact its just a tool to explore things and provide some explanations within limits.

How many of you remember Mendel ? I think you don't even know the name if you never had bio but everyone know Einstein ! Why ? Even He got noble prize for something of not much importance. So much for science but the same fellows in science know how to push back others to have your theory and proof at the top...lolz

There is a difference between fan and fanatic/fanboi. The later one is what I don't want anyone to be, it simply sucks to lock up in a confined space filled with same sh!te.

There are good things to assimilate from everything. Its upto you to choose the good and leave the rest.

 

[karnivore]

So do you know what is happening in NASA, what they secretly boiling up ? Do you know that every scientist is genuinely working towards welfare or research than just mere fame or money ? Aren't we scavenging on science now, you put anything under the label of science and we accept it. Of course it needs a lot of knowledge in that field to know if its really true or just some shallow proof ?

NASA belongs to a country and is not responsible for the rest of the world just like ISRO or ESA. In any case, what they r secretly cooking up, if at all they are, should not be our concern, just as ISRO's secret endeavors are not.

Although not a great fan of A.P.J.Abul Kalam, I did like something he said when he was severely criticized for building the Agni missile. It is not ad verbatim, but essentially what he said was, "I have made a carrier. Now it is upto u whether u want to send a nuclear warhead or a bouquet of roses to ur enemy. Whatever u choose, it can be done". I think that captures the true spirit of a scientist. Otherwise, we will start blaming Einstein for Nuclear warheads, Newton for missile and so on. It is the spirit that matters not the purpose. Remember Dolly. She was cloned purely for commercial reasons. But the question is didn't we learn anything from those experiments.

And no. Anything that is sold under the brand name of "science" does not become science. Just because something looks like, sounds like and walks like duck, it is not always a duck.

Like I said if every thing was on default that GOD made it then how come we have Great Pyramids, the sword which Karmanya talked about and various other wonders which were quite impossible to make without an open mind and great technology. Why Mayans did a precise job of making calendar if they knew that GOD wouldn't want it in first place...lolz. Science is not a new phenomenon. Infact its just a tool to explore things and provide some explanations within limits.

Many of the ancient monuments were built either to commemorate victory over enemies or as offerings to god. The Great Pyramids of Egypt or the pyramids of Inca civilization, were all influenced by the believe in their respective gods. The reasons why Mayans drew up their precise calenders were agriculture and to make offerings to gods at the precise time. It was precisely FOR the gods, and not DESPITE the gods, that they drew up their calenders.

How many of you remember Mendel ? I think you don't even know the name if you never had bio but everyone know Einstein ! Why ? Even He got noble prize for something of not much importance. So much for science but the same fellows in science know how to push back others to have your theory and proof at the top...lolz

Agree completely. Not many knows that the theory of evolution was arrived at independently by two people, not one. Darwin and Wallace. But time has faded Wallace from public memory.

There is a difference between fan and fanatic/fanboi. The later one is what I don't want anyone to be, it simply sucks to lock up in a confined space filled with same sh!te.

There are good things to assimilate from everything. Its upto you to choose the good and leave the rest.

As far as I know, "FAN" is the shortened form of "FANatic". So maybe, u would want to rephrase that. Anyway, you would be a fanatic, one way or the other. Your insistence on theories that have no basis makes you a fanatic for those theories. It is just the flip side of the same coin. The more u would advocate or insist, the more you would prove my point. But yes, normal is boring. You would need to spice it up a little once in a while. However, never at the cost of credibility.

Personal faith is harmless. But when it spills into the public domain, thats when it gets ugly.

 

[Faun]

Many of the ancient monuments were built either to commemorate victory over enemies or as offerings to god. The Great Pyramids of Egypt or the pyramids of Inca civilization, were all influenced by the believe in their respective gods. The reasons why Mayans drew up their precise calenders were agriculture and to make offerings to gods at the precise time. It was precisely FOR the gods, and not DESPITE the gods, that they drew up their calenders.

So the whole technology they had was devoted to GOD !!! So they were orthodox but not completely...lolz

Or may be that GOD of them was an ET...lolz. After all they werent fool to make such great things to an imaginary creature.

As far as I know, "FAN" is the shortened form of "FANatic". So maybe, u would want to rephrase that. Anyway, you would be a fanatic, one way or the other.

How abt a Zealot ? I know words are twisted but then one can understand easily in context.

Im not insisting on theories but avoiding the cliches of anything.

 

[rhitwick]

Or may be that GOD of them was an ET...lolz. After all they werent fool to make such great things to an imaginary creature.

Rhere u go..........answering urself.......

 

[karnivore]

Im not insisting on theories but avoiding the cliches of anything.

Glad to know...but i hope that u can walk the talk.

 

[mediator]

Then came the time when scripting started. People started writing everything they knew. But these Godmen couldn’t do same like anyone as the truth will bring anarchy. People now have started worshipping the concept like anything, forgot the reasons, ideologies, forgot asking why and how. They became blind followers like if the thing has God associated with it, thou shan’t question. So to prevent this and they wrote books but in form of story and with a lot of God and God related phenomenon in it. Thus born our holy books like Ramayana, Bible, Iliad, Koran etc.

Exact time of 'when' scripting started is still debated. They say, that the first seers in vedic age used to 'remember'/'memorise' all the vedic teachings and used to pass that knowledge to their disciples 'orally'. Scientists who are interested in INDIAN past are still debating the exact age of vedic origination. Also, You must understand archaeology & that humans have a long history of creating temples, statues of people, art etc. Today we make statues of Mahatma Gandhi, a famous figure throughout the world, who's name has been embedded in several history books now. Why? So saying that these holy books like Ramayana, Bible, Iliad, Koran etc are 'stories', is simply something which cannot be affirmed. Although there can be twists and deviations from the original scripture. In case of ramayana which is much older than mahabharata, we have many versions of Ramayana. Indians have their own, Thais have their own etc. But this is not a case in mahabharata.

I believe what essential is, that you read what all is given "without any bias" in your mind on either any matter of science or any holybook or past. If you already form an opinion based on people's recommendations, then you've already lost your 'own' perspective on the subject. Its like watching a bollywood/hollywood movie after acknowledging its 'stars' in the newspaper. When you watch it you may say, 'it was boring or stupid' & hence differing from the newspaper reviews. Whereas, sometimes watching even a lowballed movie can be interesting.

So its not that you form an opinion 'before' reading a book or a subject, but I guess the opposite that you read it completely and then, form an opinion. If it interests you, then u may read more and conform from diff. sources!

Theists will question & argue about the existence of the world/universe/matter & from where did all of it originate. If u try to answer them, then consequently from this will arise more questions like what is beyond universe? If its revolving like earth? If it has boundaries or if it ends anywhere? Consider it like, asking what covers earth's inner crust? Earth's outer crust? Beyond that we have atmosphere in the form of five layers?? Then, it goes to galaxy? Whats beyond that? Universe? Then...Then...Then....why, how, where, what?? Can it be like an irrational number or a mathematic figure that has no ending?

Scientists have defined 1 light year as the distance covered by light in one year. Based on this measure we say that a star A is 1000 light years away, B is 2000 light years away and hence so on. That means the light we are seeing now from A left it around 1000 yrs ago, from B it left 2000 yrs ago. Doesn't that mean we are viewing star A 1000 yrs in past & b 2000 yrs in past, the light "from something" which we are sensing/acknowledging right now, "that something" might not be there in reality?? Similary we view SUN 8 minutes in the past. The same goes for sound. Considering all the advancement of science till date, which have "enchanced" the reach of naked eye/ears etc to see distance stars clearly and even tiny particles, can we answer all these philosophical questions??

On the other hand, science will argue who created God. If its a he or a she? If he exists & if he's good, then why not save humans from being exterminated by terrorists or help the poor?

So when u ponder on these two sets of eternal questions, then u see that there happens to be a stalemate. You may have a different opinion, but you might see such a stalemate only if you shed your personal bias & emotions regarding either God or Science. Well u can see my vote in the thread, after all I too believe in the ULIMATE TRUTH, that I do.

 

[keshavasiva]

Despite its own inadequacies, science has an amazing ability to adapt.
Back when the steady state theory was popular, even greats like Einstein were too stubborn to believe that any other theory could exist(so much so that they even published a few papers believing gravity to be repulsive at large distances). It took a certain Kepler to prove them wrong. So what did they do? Did they fall over themselves crying about a saviour who would come and rid them of this evil- no they did not, They re-worked the numbers and adapted.
Incidentally Mediator, the page you sent about mendel-*www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v3/i4/genetics.asp.
Actually I would like to tell you(as can any class 10 student) that Darwin's theory of evolution has actually been re-worked. Now the current theory is the Neo-Darwinian theory which factors in Mendel's experiments.
Also the claim that Mendel's findings were ignored is quite laudable. Mendel like a lot of scientists was not as good a marketer as Darwin or Einstein were. The idea has to be sold to the people. A monk in Georgia may not have been the best equipped to do that.
T159- I cannot speak for Karnivore, but personally I don't disbelieve that our ancestors had better technology-Look at the ancient weapons-damascus steel, 1 metre long chinese swords with multiple edges, these techniques have been lost for ages, though I doubt that some "holy" being delivered them to us as a gift. I believe that scientists of that age created them and the religious-superstitious mindsets led people into believing them to be gifts from the "Gods".
And Finally, Mediator, You ask these questions and we answer to the best of our ability. You refuse to accept the answers, and then when you run out of arguments that you can re-cycle without being too obvious you revert back to saying"YOU HAVEN'T ANSWERED MY QUESTIONS!". So frankly speaking, why not stop acting like a baby, and calmly debate? Arguments don't necessitate insult and (in Keshav's case curse words.)
Also karnivore, please don't play the age card, it irritates me no end when while talking to my grandmother or her Guruji and after a discussion, have him say- "You're too young to understand".

^^ Now this is what i call substantial talk ...
Lets see. Do you even know that Darwin Theory was a imagination and a great fiction novel kinda thingy by darwin?? He Himself says towards the end of his life as i quoted in my previous posts.! Now you say that class10th students know that there is a thingy called neodarwinism?? which just is a speculation over a speculation... Doesn't this sound correct as what is it and As AMOF, it is.
Its nothing lesser than a chance theory.. How many things in your life you believe have come by chance??
You quote that you believe something. Why not the opposite true? You know how advanced the weapons used in Kurukshetra war were? And don't say its a mythology... There are findings in that place of war equipment... And don't think people are so perfect that they can find everything that were used.. You can find the description written in the holy books and ya.... If you Don't BELIEVE that then how do you think people of that age could even write such books?? They know the technology far better than we do and they know what to use the technology for ... only for dharma yudda.... now to not go deep into.. i just want to tell you that darwinism or neo or wateva is just a pure mental speculation as claimed by the orginator himself(indirectly) ... you don't really want your grant parents to be monkey's /.//do you?? ... jus kidding tho..... !

Doesn't that embarrasses u to be saying "we" answer? I asked u something to read and answer n here u r like a true troll to be only judging everyone! Neither u r posting anything of interest or entertaining me like ur funny comrade. WTH


I also know why sherpas or the peole born on mountains have great stamina, people in gym develop great bodies n power, swimmers don't have much straight bodies but cuts becoz of muscles throughout n people adpat so much to spoon feeding that they lose intelligence and ability to comprehend properly. Yes adaption plays great role.......NOW WHAT DOES THAT HAS TO DO WITH DEVELOPING EYES/EARS/LIMBS/FLYING/EVOLUTION FROM LAND TO SEA, SEA TO LAND????

Do u even try to understand what I am asking?


Who told u it was not required on land. Another one of ur theories that u putting up as facts??
After all it can help people during the times of tsunamis, floods ....survival sire survival! You r forgetting the very foundation of ur theory! Is the theory of evolution that weak that u randomly pick the animals like hippos, crocks? Why not humans & most of the animals? Even the hippos n crocks hold their breath for long times and resurface to breathe. Even Phelps can do that. And so? may be another digression u may be aiming at from the actual question? Is that how the funny materialists answer a question? Thats quite an imagination that "It was not required on land". Now please tell the book that brainwashed u on this or may be another evolutionist site that u landed on instead of using ur own upper....M sorry. Its hollooo..



Reasons for ur not getting convinced? Please do tell what u know.




Again a digression or lack of comprehension. How is that related to limbs/wings and flying of the humans that we talked discussing the "survival"?

But even in this deviated P.O.V of urs, why would predators i.e the successors or predecessors in an evolutionary chain harm their own heirarchy i.e the parents as in predecessors and then the evolutionary successors?? "Flee from predators", "Evolution allowed them to survive"? So evolution made them predators to haunt their own successors n predecessors & that some evolved to be able to fly to survive?? But, as I recall predators are there even in the sky in the form of vultures, hawks etc! Seems ur logic is all mixed up yet again with flaws all around. I wonder if some gene has got extinct that humans have lost many qualities that sea creatures possess or is it still there as in in some special case as u said evolution allowed a gene to survive?? But again, its an amazing logic of urs which says, "It was not required to on land"!

So then why didn't humans started flying even after so much danger or retained the ability to survive under water??


The "reduced scaling" of creatures which have an original length of like 6 feet in reality to 6 cm in this thread in the form of pictures doesn't mean u hallucinate that they grew cm by cm!
Its like looking at a globe, u think INDIA is 15 cm away from Russia n 30 cm from US! Funny materialist.
Where is the cm by cm evidence of the development of skeletal system, limbs, eyes, brain etc etc??


Which whale to be precise may I ask, white whale, blue whale? As I recall whales have a rather gigantic size as compared to hippos! Besides, the part in bold itself speaks about the weight of uncertainties. So much for the facts to consider evolutionary theory as a fact.


The point is jolly simple. "The survival", the chances of which are getting less as humans 'evolve' in knowledge. The factors are many for humans to fly or why they shud have the ability to 'survive' under water as discussed previously! So the humans can't fly or survive under water? So much for the flawed theory of evolution!


Forgetting n not bolding an "if" before the clause "having a brain" & quoting selectively doesn't mean u get another chance to digress! U must read it completely where both advantages and disadvantages of our intelligence have been put forward. U don't leave any chance to digress do u?
An so, read the 2nd line in bold. Terrorism, incompatibilities, hatred, idealism(funny materialist) etc are on the rise, global warming which is a result of century old human practices of burning carbon based fuels cannot be solved in one day or even a decade which is leading to food shortage,ecological disaster etc, nuclear wastes which have no proper disposal solution are all factors enough that lessen our "chances for survival"! Ponder and u may find more.

So why didn't humans fly? Even if floods occur becoz of rising water level, an ability to survive under water would have been rather useful! The atmosphere gets heated up and people will use ACs/fridges/coolers which in turn will lead to greater heat up of the atmosphere. We have already lost much of the ozone that protects us from ultraviolet. So what does the theory of evolution say for ur survival??


All I see is heavily flawed and twisted logic which u r unable to backup save plaguirin evolutionst sites and quoting what is already known than using ur own upper....ah well!
That usually happens when u play an apologist for a theory.



Questioning is an integral part of science evolution! If an answer cannot be found, then its only foolishness to force urself to find a theory no matter how absurd n inconsistent it gets. Although thats how science works "by observing & conjecturing" but treating a theory as a fact and playing apologist for it rather defines the threshold of foolishness! May be like universe this foolishness has no boundaries for fanatic fanbois!

So don't be so emotional to be crying, "why don't u take the responsibility"! I'm only questioning genuinely, and not even yawning/ignoring like the funny materialist. Remember thats how science progresses by questioning and not by plaguirizin, blind following or saying thats what "majority have accepted"!
If people like u wud have survived in the flat earth era who don't have much of out of box thinking but only know about the foundations, then I guess that even the conjectures on round earth, revolution etc at that time would have been called pink unicorns even today!




Was it ur ego that was preventing u from answering all these simple questions previously? So it seems science cannot explain many things currently or is having trouble in doing so!!


Explain about the boundary then. I hope its not 'observable' or a mere guesswork.




If it doesn't has to end, & if universe is expanding even faster than previously predicted bcoz of some fancy n puzzling dark wateva, doesn't that mean the 'boundary' is rather not defined??




Amino acids? Do u even understand what amino acids are? Have a second try and re-read ur sources again!


Why shud I get excited? I only asked what will happen. So what do u think will happen if it confirms?



Amazing, I quoted the pdf and here u r linking to forums n blogs yet again to back urself up! I guess thats how u get ur spoon feeding done. Answers from physics forums or any person with the term "scientist" prepended to him/her, & aha, end of reasoning!




Again it seems u r either foolin urself or u think people here are gullible enough. You do understand the status of modern medicine on AIDS even after repeated quoting don't u? Atleast read it once.





It seems u missed one question!
7. Why do u think modern medicine is ignoring too much?? Please do refresh urself on the topic reading past replies too.





A man(?) of ur age doesn't have to feel proud after abusing someone like that.



There is no need to be emotional to be writing a small note so that people can remember what science has done or provided us with. After all, its not that I am trying to mock science which u r trying to potray me like. Understand the difference between a being a fan and a fanatic fanboy! I am a science fan (not a fanboi), but that doesn't mean I don't look beyond what has been put forward or see both the sides of the situation. Also u lose the weight of ur posts in the first place when u label creationists or theists as morons or abuse those who differ with ur opinion. Understand how many scientists who lead to a major revolution in science were theists. But I guess that won't make it through ur head since u need spoon feeding all the time. Courtesy some comrade, some site on ur favourite theory or some scientist perhaps??




I can understand the scope of ur limited dictionary. Seems like u fulfilled my predictions about ur terminology!

Besides there is no need to answer again save the unfulfilled questions, since u have shown that u r hanging on to the mere thread that defines ur fervent faith that science "can" answer all of that. Thats called blind faith which leads one to play an apologist for his favourite theory and then hallucinating all sort of possibilities to be uttering sentences like "This was not needed", "This might have happened" n then failing to answer on that very foundation n thus reducing science to religion!
So u see faith does play an important part in human life. !!

Dude... I got tired scrolling.. but was really remarkable to point out what karnivore is really upto .
@Karnivore...

Atheists commonly accuse theists of hav*ing created the idea of God to satisfy certain psychological needs. A more reasonable person, they say, can do without this crutch and instead learn from the cold, hard facts of science, whose findings inevitably lead us to conclude there's no God.
Atheists, however, are not free of biases and psychological needs, and these influence both their experimental findings and their attitude toward various scientific theories. Though they may flatter themselves, they are not immune to seeing things the way they want. The theory of Darwinian evolution is a case in point.
"Darwin made it possible to be an intellectu*ally fulfilled atheist," says Richard Dawkins, professor of the public understanding of science at Oxford University. For those with atheistic tendencies, Darwin was a savior. He made it possible for the scientists to do away with the need for God. His theory supposedly shows that all life forms evolved through strictly mechanistic processes.
Evolution is really the only alternative to the idea of creation. Either someone created this world or it evolved on its own. That's why Darwinian evolution is so important to atheists, and they'll do anything to defend it. But is it truly defensible?
In The Origin of Species, Darwin wrote, "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modification, my theory would absolutely break down."

 

[rhitwick]

Exact time of 'when' scripting started is still debated. They say, that the first seers in vedic age used to 'remember'/'memorise'(bold 1) all the vedic teachings and used to pass that knowledge to their disciples 'orally'. Scientists who are interested in INDIAN past are still debating the exact age of vedic origination. Also, You must understand archaeology & that humans have a long history of creating temples, statues of people, art etc. Today we make statues of Mahatma Gandhi(bold 2), a famous figure throughout the world, who's name has been embedded in several history books now. Why? So saying that these holy books like Ramayana, Bible, Iliad, Koran etc are 'stories', is simply something which cannot be affirmed. Although there can be twists and deviations from the original scripture(bold 3). In case of ramayana which is much older than mahabharata, we have many versions of Ramayana. Indians have their own, Thais have their own etc. But this is not a case in mahabharata.

Bold 1: I've already posted it in my reply and I think mentioning it here u r not disagreeing me

Bold 2: In any place of the world statues of Mahatma Gandhi is same, he looks like same, same type of bald head, same type of thin hands....dhoti, stick etc. but in dif. states, would it be wrong if I say even districts have different looking Gods of same name. U know the reason why is they r not similar in everywhere, its because they are IMAGINARY, its because people in diff. places imagined differently the same God. So.....

Bold 3: Agreed, I also believe our mythologies are twisted truth, they are not scripted as same as happened. My theory is that, all these Gods were actually powerfull scientists (now don’t laugh), they invented all these things but didn’t want the common people to know it. I’ve already told in my previous post how (I think) they kept these from common view and why they didn’t want to reveal.

I believe what essential is, that you read what all is given "without any bias" in your mind on either any matter of science or any holybook or past. If you already form an opinion based on people's recommendations, then you've already lost your 'own' perspective on the subject. Its like watching a bollywood/hollywood movie after acknowledging its 'stars' in the newspaper. When you watch it you may say, 'it was boring or stupid' & hence differing from the newspaper reviews. Whereas, sometimes watching even a lowballed movie can be interesting.
So its not that you form an opinion 'before' reading a book or a subject, but I guess the opposite that you read it completely and then, form an opinion. If it interests you, then u may read more and conform from diff. sources!

Offtopic ..........now including all the abusing posts of Kesav and ur previous posts, this is really insulting..........u've hurt me...........I'm an avid moviegoer; when in college I used to be one of the "First-day-first-show" customer. Now I'm in job and first-show is impossible but try to catch the movies I "feel" I should c, at nightshow on first day; if able to convince my colleagues, they accompany me (which is once in blue moon) or I go alone. That is my dedication to movies, watching them not being biased, no one accuses me on being biased to any movie........so plz, plz, plz take back ur allegations

And replying to the inner meaning of ur comment on movie viewing...........no I don't judge people or events on someone's comments. I'm from a very much theist family, at least 2-3 big pujas hapen in my home, everyone goes to temple etc. This came from my whys and hows? I used to ask them to my parents, they either answerd "God" as reason or "Don't know". I was not satisfied.........I went to libraries (when in class 3) and read books on both type, read mythology books (includes iliad-odisi, russian, chinese, ramayana, mahabharata but missed out koran) and read “GODS, DEMONS & SPIRITSvs Dr. Kovoor”(Yeah in class 3 I read it). And prepared my individual opinion on these, that I should be atheist. I stopped going temples, stopped praying, stopped using stones, rings etc...everybody in my home was furious but I stood strong…..if pressured to wear stones I would throw them, we were not that rich so that thing stopped. Whatever, the meaning is I don’t build my opinion listening someone. My strategy is I build an opinion like I don’t believe God, now its ur turn to convince me, u’ve to try hard as I don’t convince so easily. U give logics, I’ll give counter logic, until n unless u prove me wrong I’m right, if proved wrong ,I’ll happily accept ur claim. But u’ve to prove me wrong.

Theists will question & argue about the existence of the world/universe/matter & from where did all of it originate. If u try to answer them, then consequently from this will arise more questions like what is beyond universe? If its revolving like earth? If it has boundaries or if it ends anywhere? Consider it like, asking what covers earth's inner crust? Earth's outer crust? Beyond that we have atmosphere in the form of five layers?? Then, it goes to galaxy? Whats beyond that? Universe? Then...Then...Then....why, how, where, what?? Can it be like an irrational number or a mathematic figure that has no ending?

So what is ur point? The questions u’ve mentioned here are the questions science is asking and trying to provide answers and in most cases we’ve found it. We’ve answers for these not u, u r stuck(or stopped) to “GOD”, every question above is answered by you(theists) is stuck(limited, bounded) to “GOD”

Scientists have defined 1 light year as the distance covered by light in one year. Based on this measure we say that a star A is 1000 light years away, B is 2000 light years away and hence so on. That means the light we are seeing now from A left it around 1000 yrs ago, from B it left 2000 yrs ago. Doesn't that mean we are viewing star A 1000 yrs in past & b 2000 yrs in past, the light "from something" which we are sensing/acknowledging right now, "that something" might not be there in reality?? Similary we view SUN 8 minutes in the past. The same goes for sound. Considering all the advancement of science till date, which have "enchanced" the reach of naked eye/ears etc to see distance stars clearly and even tiny particles, can we answer all these philosophical questions??

What is philosophical here? IT IS FACT. Just explain one thing to me; u know bowling machines right? balls are thrown to batsman from it with various speed. Now imagine a straight road of 1 KM, a bowling machine is at point A of this road and it throws a ball to point B at the opposite end of the road. It takes 10 seconds to reach the ball from one end to another end. In between these 10 seconds if someone lifts the machine from that place (as similar to a star being blown or destroyed) does that mean the ball never had any source? Now tell me what is philosophical here?

Seriously I didn’t see anything philosophical here. I’ve read this portion several times but I couldn’t figure out…………the things u mentioned r scientific F A C T S!

On the other hand, science will argue who created God. If its a he or a she? If he exists & if he's good, then why not save humans from being exterminated by terrorists or help the poor?

So when u ponder on these two sets of eternal questions, then u see that there happens to be a stalemate. You may have a different opinion, but you might see such a stalemate only if you shed your personal bias & emotions regarding either God or Science. Well u can see my vote in the thread, after all I too believe in the ULIMATE TRUTH, that I do.

Sorry I’ve not seen ur vote, do I need to?
Another thing u’ve answered a lot of things and intelligently escaped these:-

Who created us?
God.

How?
Don’t know. [But science at least has its version of the procedure of how were we created]

Why are we the only living being in the universe?
God made us and loves us so much (or may be too tired) that he didn’t create another earth. [But science at least has its version of reason why we are only living being in the universe ( or may not be “Only”)]

When did Dinosaur abolished?
God knows. [Science also knows and can tell u at least the probable time]

Why did Dinosaurs abolished?
God killed them. [Science has 2-3 version of the reason which may not be this like one line answers]

Why did God killed them?
Don’t know. He wished to kill, will that stop you questioning. [Science has reasons and would appreciate you for asking more]

How come crocs can live in water and even in land?
God made them like that. [Science can give you answer for that which may not be this like one line answers]

Why do birds fly but we can’t?
God made them like that and he didn’t want us to fly. [Science can give you answer for that which may not be this like one line answers]

That scientist n00b tells that 80% of my brain doesn’t do anything, why?
Ya this will have a few reasons:-
-----God made us like that
-----He’s a n00b, he doesn’t know anything, all part of our brain is working.
-----20% is for day to day work and 80% is reserved for God (For God’s sake stop questioning!!!) [Science can give you answer for that which may not be like this, which may require ur 20% brain to work more]

These are my imaginary conversation between a theist, a confused and a silent atheist.
I again say these are imaginary, so would u like to be responsible enough to make the confused person to explain more, in your own language.
U know u can’t, really u can’t because u don’t know. But science can. Things we know, we can give minute details about them, not u (plz read theists, don’t take personally). Our answers might be wrong today but would be right tomorrow because we are always asking question ourselves, trying to c the answer from every aspect, every angle. But that is not happening with u, no new theories are coming, no new research is going. Even u’ve started to acknowledge our explanations, in times of India they published a news today, some church is going to apologize officially to Darwin for not accepting his theory of Evolution. It has started, u c, it has started (may be it’s a hoax, but its in talk, people are discussing about it).

 

[keshavasiva]

Guys, time has come I should post (like I’m someone who was being expected to post) something that I believe is true. I was expecting Karnivore and Mediator to come to some conclusion but it seems they’ve gone too personal, from where independent response is impossible.

The post is going to be a little lengthy, those who are interested, requested to have patience……..karni and mediator, u r used to reading and replyin this kinda posts, u shouldn’t face any problem.

In my opinion God is a concept, a perfect idol that has all the ideal characteristics to be followed. When we are young (till age 8-9) we are taught u shouldn’t do this, should do that…….God will like it or God won’t like it. A lot of advice used to pour upon us like, God helps everyone (means u should help everyone), God doesn’t hurt anyone (means u shouldn’t hurt anyone), telling truth etc……we are supposed to follow that concept and try to be the ideal person……….

Let me go more root of the creation of this God concept………..in ancient ages when we didn’t have any knowledge of what are all the natural incidents like fire, lightning, flood etc. we used to fear them, if lightning struck anyone he/she died………it was something like miracle the person was live and kicking this time but is turned into ashes the next second. How is it possible? Yes we had this habit of questing in that time too, but there was none to answer, so we prepared the answers ourselves. Came to a conclusion that the person might not have died himself, someone must’ve killed him. But who, how, why, why can’t we c him, why can’t we hear, etc. Who= unknown, how=by lightning, why=must be angry on him, why can’t we c=unknown, why can’t hear=unknown. So we decided as so many characteristics are unknown and we can’t even c him, he must not be like us, he must be superior to us, have super powers, can vanish, can play with life threatening things (fire, lightning, water etc). As the incident was related to lightning we named the unknown after lightning, same applied to fire, water, earth etc…..

Then centuries passed we evolved technologically , education system came, which was mainly verbal, little or nothing was scripted then. People who were teacher and practiced these things, knew the truth of this concept and its main reason, but kept mum because till then this God concept was introduced in daily life, business started by God’s name, so many things were associated with it, was very tough to “Déjà Vu”. And more over God concept became very useful to make people frightened……..Just tell anything to anyone, do anything and add “God has told this”………none will ask any question. Everyone was told that God is almighty and thou shouldn’t go against God’s will, if so, something bad will happen to you. Nobody questioned and it became a legend. [Once my teacher told if one false theory is continuing for ages it seems to be truer than the actual truth].

This concept was practiced mostly by people in power. They knew if people start questioning everything that is told or practiced; his position will be in question. That’s why they became allied with people who control these (pandit, priest etc…). These priests or messengers of God or Godmen or men who have direct link with God were not in direct power but helped the then king to be King. That’s why they were given special privileges in all ages.

Then came the time when scripting started. People started writing everything they knew. But these Godmen couldn’t do same like anyone as the truth will bring anarchy. People now have started worshipping the concept like anything, forgot the reasons, ideologies, forgot asking why and how. They became blind followers like if the thing has God associated with it, thou shan’t question. So to prevent this and they wrote books but in form of story and with a lot of God and God related phenomenon in it. Thus born our holy books like Ramayana, Bible, Iliad, Koran etc.

BUT there were people in every age who refused to believe anything that is told to them, they were fed-up with getting the “sky” as answer to all their queries. They risked their life to bring us the truth. Galileo, Socrates died to bring the truth, Newton faced punishment to tell Earth rounds the Sun (it was against Bible u c) etc. Columbus was told why he wants to embark on a journey which doesn’t have any meaning. He was told, why does he want to c what is beyond the c, if God wanted to know us, God would’ve told us. But he did, he dared to ask why not? And he’s still remembered for that.

In any place u go against this question what is true, God or Science, we atheists are very few in number. We ask why, how, when; we irritate people so much by asking these. They are also bored to tell us the same reason for every question, i.e. GOD is in the root of these. That’s why they try to stop us by any means, by any absurd answers.
Who created us?
God.

How?
Don’t know. [But science at least has its version of the procedure of how were we created]

Why are we the only living being in the universe?
God made us and loves us so much (or may be too tired) that he didn’t create another earth. [But science at least has its version of reason why we are only living being in the universe ( or may not be “Only”)]

When did Dinosaur abolished?
God knows. [Science also knows and can tell u at least the probable time]

Why did Dinosaurs abolished?
God killed them. [Science has 2-3 version of the reason which may not be this like one line answers]

Why did God killed them?
Don’t know. He wished to kill, will that stop you questioning. [Science has reasons and would appreciate you for asking more]

How come crocs can live in water and even in land?
God made them like that. [Science can give you answer for that which may not be this like one line answers]

Why do birds fly but we can’t?
God made them like that and he didn’t want us to fly. [Science can give you answer for that which may not be this like one line answers]

That scientist n00b tells that 80% of my brain doesn’t do anything, why?
Ya this will have a few reasons:-

• God made us like that
• He’s a n00b, he doesn’t know anything, all part of our brain is working.
• 20% is for day to day work and 80% is reserved for God (For God’s sake stop questioning!!!) [Science can give you answer for that which may not be like this, which may require ur 20% brain to work more]

whoof........will post more later

Its time for you really... and I am very much thankful for such a non-MOd post .

But dude... you are nicely referring to science... but what the theist is gonna refer to ?? It nonetheless, scriptures.
Ok cool.... You think he is gonna think about holy **** like why birds fly .. why sogs fart?? etccc.... no offense.. just to point out.... Yes... science can explain only this ones.. but not .. qs like
1) who are u?
Are u a bunch of chemicals or your name or wat??
2) What is the difference between dead and living
No.. science won"t and can"t explain these thing cuz it only deals with what it can perceive and only material science!!!!
There are so many cases of OBEs(Out of Body Experiences) etc in the operating theatres which science has no clue of!
Instead of answering the basic qs of humanity or life .. why know about bird flying, donkey braying!! What do you gain even by knowing about it..!
Science tricks people by putting a postdated cheque in hand saying we are going to prove ... are in the way... but nvr near to destination...!!
No one can create a single living organism in a laboratory.... Thats the creation of God ... How can ever a sane man having lots of brains say this huge wonderful creation came by chance .. a BANG .. a reaction....damn it.!

 

[karnivore]

@keshavasiva
Generally when we make quotes, we also provide the source. It helps to understand the true context.

Anyway....

"Darwin made it possible to be an intellectu*ally fulfilled atheist," says Richard Dawkins, professor of the public understanding of science at Oxford University. For those with atheistic tendencies, Darwin was a savior. He made it possible for the scientists to do away with the need for God. His theory supposedly shows that all life forms evolved through strictly mechanistic processes.

Would luv to explain in details that evolution <> atheism or vice-versa, but will be a waste of time. Nevertheless the true quote is, "Although atheism might have been logically tenable before Darwin, Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist". Your source forgot to mention the part bolded. Prior to Darwin, the whole issue of atheism was a philosphical argument. Evolution provided the SCIENTIFIC basis to it. Thats all.

In The Origin of Species, Darwin wrote, "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modification, my theory would absolutely break down.

First, what Darwin was doing, when he wrote that, was providing a FALSIFIABILITY, which is a cornerstone to any scientific theory. But u would'nt know that, would u. Second, your source forgot to complete the quote. So let me complete it for you.

If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down. But I can find out no such case.

The part in bold was conveniently left out.

.. why know about bird flying, donkey braying!! What do you gain even by knowing about it..!

Brilliantly spoken. What possible reward can there be by knowing, how we evolved anatomically ?

No one can create a single living organism in a laboratory.... Thats the creation of God ...

Would cloning and in vitro fertilization qualify as creating "living organism in a laboratory" ?

 

[rhitwick]

Its time for you really... and I am very much thankful for such a non-MOd post .

Thanx I'm honored

But dude... you are nicely referring to science... but what the theist is gonna refer to ?? It nonetheless, scriptures.

Are finding urself a bit helpless as u cant find more resources. Alas, I can't help u in that case. I've already answered this question b4 u ask (C I can predict the future, in previous post, plz read it once) some part of the post is given below

U know u can’t, really u can’t because u don’t know. But science can. Things we know, we can give minute details about them, not u (plz read theists, don’t take personally). Our answers might be wrong today but would be right tomorrow because we are always asking question ourselves, trying to c the answer from every aspect, every angle. But that is not happening with u, no new theories are coming, no new research is going.

Ok cool.... You think he is gonna think about holy **** like why birds fly .. why sogs fart?? etccc.... no offense.. just to point out.... Yes... science can explain only this ones.. but not .. qs like

hmmmm, so u can't post without "these", but positive point is, at least using of "those" is decreased.
So by talking absurd r u trying to evade the questions?
Note, I'm not the first person to ask these questions, our beloved theist poster of this thread mediator and some other asked these questions in these 2 yrs of this thrd. And I'm just repeating those. Do u want to tell that, if "U" ask a question then its valid, the same is invalid if we ask?? Why?? Thats not fare buddy!!!!
The questions will be there, u can't escape. Take ur time and answer.

1) who are u?
Are u a bunch of chemicals or your name or wat??

According to science I'm a bunch of chemical and lightning fast nuron and dendrons connecting to various hormone gland thiroid (controls emotions etc, I forgot u better research), pituitari etc gland.
What is theist's explaination for this? Plz don't say u r God. If u say, from that instant u should stop going temples(God is in u right? no need to go anywhere), don't curse him on any bad happening to u like how could God did this (God is in u right?), don't thank him everytime u do some good (ufff.....how many times should I mention God is in u), while doing "namaste" do it to urself infron of a mirror (again.....God is in u). Belive me if do this ur self-confidence would touch the sky (this is d side effect if believe in urself)
And plz don't answer I'm not God, God created me, cause it again comes to u, so what r u? Something like infinite loop, where u r stuck.

2) What is the difference between dead and living

Sorry I don't know. I've not yet hit google on this query. Plz explain the answer to me. Then I would like to reply.

There are so many cases of OBEs(Out of Body Experiences) etc in the operating theatres which science has no clue of!

First: Have u seen/experienced it urself?
If yes, plz explain in details.
Socrates told how to recgnize a hoax, ask these questions:
1. Have u seen that?
2. What is ur business in that?/ Are you anyhow involved in that?
3. What is my business in that? /Am I anyhow involved in that?
Try to apply it in daily life.

Instead of answering the basic qs of humanity or life .. why know about bird flying, donkey braying!!

Can u or can't?

What do you gain even by knowing about it..!

Its of no gain, can u answer or not?

Science tricks people by putting a postdated cheque in hand saying we are going to prove ... are in the way... but nvr near to destination...!!

?????

No one can create a single living organism in a laboratory.... Thats the creation of God ...

Thats why I called u n00b, don't be angry, u r very ill informed about life creation in lab, heard about cloning (dolly, does this ring any bell??), test tube baby??!!!

How can ever a sane man having lots of brains say this huge wonderful creation came by chance .. a BANG .. a reaction....damn it.!

Ah, in the whole post u've shown some amount on intelligence but that vanished here, talk logically I'm with u. This line explains ur state of mind i.e. whatever proofs u bring I won't be convinced and u r not ready to open ur eyes and ears. Sigh. Best of luck.

 

[keshavasiva]

Thanx I'm honored


Are finding urself a bit helpless as u cant find more resources. Alas, I can't help u in that case. I've already answered this question b4 u ask (C I can predict the future, in previous post, plz read it once) some part of the post is given below


hmmmm, so u can't post without "these", but positive point is, at least using of "those" is decreased.
So by talking absurd r u trying to evade the questions?
Note, I'm not the first person to ask these questions, our beloved theist poster of this thread mediator and some other asked these questions in these 2 yrs of this thrd. And I'm just repeating those. Do u want to tell that, if "U" ask a question then its valid, the same is invalid if we ask?? Why?? Thats not fare buddy!!!!
The questions will be there, u can't escape. Take ur time and answer.

According to science I'm a bunch of chemical and lightning fast nuron and dendrons connecting to various hormone gland thiroid (controls emotions etc, I forgot u better research), pituitari etc gland.
What is theist's explaination for this? Plz don't say u r God. If u say, from that instant u should stop going temples(God is in u right? no need to go anywhere), don't curse him on any bad happening to u like how could God did this (God is in u right?), don't thank him everytime u do some good (ufff.....how many times should I mention God is in u), while doing "namaste" do it to urself infron of a mirror (again.....God is in u). Belive me if do this ur self-confidence would touch the sky (this is d side effect if believe in urself)
And plz don't answer I'm not God, God created me, cause it again comes to u, so what r u? Something like infinite loop, where u r stuck.

Sorry I don't know. I've not yet hit google on this query. Plz explain the answer to me. Then I would like to reply.


First: Have u seen/experienced it urself?
If yes, plz explain in details.
Socrates told how to recgnize a hoax, ask these questions:
1. Have u seen that?
2. What is ur business in that?/ Are you anyhow involved in that?
3. What is my business in that? /Am I anyhow involved in that?
Try to apply it in daily life.

Can u or can't? Its of no gain, can u answer or not?
?????
Thats why I called u n00b, don't be angry, u r very ill informed about life creation in lab, heard about cloning (dolly, does this ring any bell??), test tube baby??!!! Ah, in the whole post u've shown some amount on intelligence but that vanished here, talk logically I'm with u. This line explains ur state of mind i.e. whatever proofs u bring I won't be convinced and u r not ready to open ur eyes and ears. Sigh. Best of luck.

Dude... noobie post .. but look.... testtube baby or clone are created only with the help of a living being....
Sperm is taken from a living being... thats just external sex...as i say...
I said and again am saying... CAN SCIENCE CREATE LIFE IN THE LABS from just chemicals. it boils down here to the ingredients of external sex .. that is the sperm and the ovum!!. Just use some common sense... you do the same sex outside and claim you created the life from chemicals... dude...!! u r sooo noobie ..!! do get angry..!!

Ok You say that you are a bunch of chemicals and some ++= .. what are those neurons and dendroids/?? Aren't they some chemicals too??
Emotions and conscience cannot be brought from chemicals... Go through google once for more reliable resources .
You say that you are not more than a robot???
You are more than that buddy!! You have consciouiness which is the missing link between the living and dead which is not gotten by some bunch of chemicals and glands.

And now... who am I..
Yes I know.. Not too stupid to say that I am god like many in the society claiming just to make money theses days (BABAS).

I am a living entity.... as you and everyone are... and God created me .. yes... where the loop?? its no where.... GOD is the one meaning... unborn.. and
LIving entity is here.... With a soul enclosed in a material body...
The consciouness is the effect of soul being present in the body.

Please apply the SOCRATES qs to yourself b4 telling others.... and do listen to socrates words.
socrates: I BELIEVE THAT SOUL EXISTS AND IS ETERNAL AND NO ONE CAN HURT IT.
Now that you trust socrates as a reliable source and so quoting it in your previous post "SHOULD BELIEVE IN THIS TOO" .. what do you say???


regarding qs and ans
You tell me which q is more important ! and which should be answered first! And no backbiting here.... just ... the most q is to know who you are... and thats true.. lets talk bout that first.... and then go to birds hogs and dogs... ?
you will understand about its unnecessity and uselesness once you understand the main Q.!!

 

[mediator]

Bold 1: I've already posted it in my reply and I think mentioning it here u r not disagreeing me

Sorry, if I overlooked it.

Bold 2: In any place of the world statues of Mahatma Gandhi is same, he looks like same, same type of bald head, same type of thin hands....dhoti, stick etc. but in dif. states, would it be wrong if I say even districts have different looking Gods of same name. U know the reason why is they r not similar in everywhere, its because they are IMAGINARY, its because people in diff. places imagined differently the same God. So....

No, you misinterpreting what I said. I am not talking about 'districts' but the 'holy books' which you think are "stories". Like Buddhism started after Buddha, Sikhism started after GuruNank, christianity -> Jesus. In all of these we find "same type of hands, expression, etc". Don't you think so?

Bold 3: Agreed, I also believe our mythologies are twisted truth, they are not scripted as same as happened. My theory is that, all these Gods were actually powerfull scientists (now don’t laugh), they invented all these things but didn’t want the common people to know it. I’ve already told in my previous post how (I think) they kept these from common view and why they didn’t want to reveal

I respect ur theory for even I believe that they were highly educated, wise & intelligent people....perhaps true scientists? Yes, why not for even Vedas stresses on science. There is no need to laugh, every one has the right to put their opinions.

And replying to the inner meaning of ur comment on movie viewing...........no I don't judge people or events on someone's comments. I'm from a very much theist family, at least 2-3 big pujas hapen in my home, everyone goes to temple etc. This came from my whys and hows? I used to ask them to my parents, they either answerd "God" as reason or "Don't know". I was not satisfied.........I went to libraries (when in class 3) and read books on both type, read mythology books (includes iliad-odisi, russian, chinese, ramayana, mahabharata but missed out koran) and read “GODS, DEMONS & SPIRITSvs Dr. Kovoor”(Yeah in class 3 I read it). And prepared my individual opinion on these, that I should be atheist. I stopped going temples, stopped praying, stopped using stones, rings etc...everybody in my home was furious but I stood strong…..if pressured to wear stones I would throw them, we were not that rich so that thing stopped. Whatever, the meaning is I don’t build my opinion listening someone. My strategy is I build an opinion like I don’t believe God, now its ur turn to convince me, u’ve to try hard as I don’t convince so easily. U give logics, I’ll give counter logic, until n unless u prove me wrong I’m right, if proved wrong ,I’ll happily accept ur claim. But u’ve to prove me wrong

You must first understand that I'm an atheist myself. Also, I'm not here to force my opinions or thoughts on anyone. But I do like to know what others think of, as it might tell me something new that I've never thought of.

So what is ur point? The questions u’ve mentioned here are the questions science is asking and trying to provide answers and in most cases we’ve found it. We’ve answers for these not u, u r stuck(or stopped) to “GOD”, every question above is answered by you(theists) is stuck(limited, bounded) to “GOD”

Please don't abuse me like I'm stuck to something!
My point is pretty simple which can be found repeatedly if you had managed to read it all. I doubt the possibility if science can answer everything, the simple and sole statement for which I've been discussing here all this time! I would like to correct you on the bolds. Its like, in 'most case' we have still not found it and in 'some cases' only 'theorised' it!

What is philosophical here? IT IS FACT. Just explain one thing to me; u know bowling machines right? balls are thrown to batsman from it with various speed. Now imagine a straight road of 1 KM, a bowling machine is at point A of this road and it throws a ball to point B at the opposite end of the road. It takes 10 seconds to reach the ball from one end to another end. In between these 10 seconds if someone lifts the machine from that place (as similar to a star being blown or destroyed) does that mean the ball never had any source? Now tell me what is philosophical here?

Seriously I didn’t see anything philosophical here. I’ve read this portion several times but I couldn’t figure out…………the things u mentioned r scientific F A C T S!

Aren't you doin an injustice to me by not supporting youself either with your logic or some facts & then asking like 'whats philosophical here'? Who questioned if the source wasn't there? Your ball example isn't much comparable to 'light from stars' as there is much difference between the physics behind "light" and that of a "ball". The simple philosophical points 'in addition' to ones that you didnt' support but merely called it "FACT etc", are
1. Aren't our senses decieving us also? How accurate can you be when you see a star.
2. As I recall even when we have developed great telescopes, the universe still looks the same almost everywhere.

As for the light from distance stars not only involves distance, but also something which they call "bending of light". For the simplest negation of ur example n to tell that its not comparable, distance=1km,t=10s means velocity shud be equal to 100m/s (nearly equal to 1/3 the speed of sound) under the "assumed" circumstances that there is no friction from air, or from land that bounces the ball back. If u take the "reality" into account, then probabilty of ball not reaching 1km in 10 seconds (or stopping at half the distance) becomes much greater. And since u revealed that its a bowling machine for a batsman I hope it wasn't thrown like a missile at an angle of 45 degrees but rather properly like they ball in reality.

Sorry I’ve not seen ur vote, do I need to?
Another thing u’ve answered a lot of things and intelligently escaped these:-

Since, u said "I'm stuck to God" and portayed me like "you(theists)", then I guess that not only u shud have seen my vote but also researched on this thread.

These are my imaginary conversation between a theist, a confused and a silent atheist.
I again say these are imaginary, so would u like to be responsible enough to make the confused person to explain more, in your own language.
U know u can’t, really u can’t because u don’t know. But science can. Things we know, we can give minute details about them, not u (plz read theists, don’t take personally). Our answers might be wrong today but would be right tomorrow because we are always asking question ourselves, trying to c the answer from every aspect, every angle. But that is not happening with u, no new theories are coming, no new research is going. Even u’ve started to acknowledge our explanations, in times of India they published a news today, some church is going to apologize officially to Darwin for not accepting his theory of Evolution. It has started, u c, it has started (may be it’s a hoax, but its in talk, people are discussing about it).

You must understand that I'm a completely neutral party much like an observer. A statement like "Theists : God killed dinos",(imagination), sounds as illogical to me as "Atheists : ITS a FACT, science can answer everything, whats philosphical in it, we already know it", thus either not answering the questions properly, or ignoring them or not accepting that science hasn't so far been able to answer them.

And since u r feeling the energy to post and discuss, then read the thread from the start first. I have already put forward many of my points. Many others did similarly & I have no desire to change ur mind.

 

[karnivore]

The consciouness is the effect of soul being present in the body.

Does that mean, in case of semi-conscious state, only HALF the soul is present and in no-conscious state (Persistent Vegetative Sate or Coma) NO soul is present, which would mean they are SEMI-DEAD and COMPLETELY DEAD respectively, although the patient is BREATHING and the heart is BEATING ?

 

[keshavasiva]

Does that mean, in case of semi-conscious state, only HALF the soul is present and in no-conscious state (Persistent Vegetative Sate or Coma) NO soul is present, which would mean they are SEMI-DEAD and COMPLETELY DEAD respectively, although the patient is BREATHING and the heart is BEATING ?

Dude... ! Its not that the soul is not present ... its only that THe consciouness is not spread due to physical dysfunction.
Soul(You) is(are) there until your death.

 

[rhitwick]

No, you misinterpreting what I said. I am not talking about 'districts' but the 'holy books' which you think are "stories". Like Buddhism started after Buddha, Sikhism started after GuruNank, christianity -> Jesus. In all of these we find "same type of hands, expression, etc". Don't you think so?

But in every books (history or literature), places( countries, states, districts, rooms, foto frames) we c gandhi being painted or sculptured alike. U know the reson?? Because, once upon a time he was alive.

You must first understand that I'm an atheist myself. Also, I'm not here to force my opinions or thoughts on anyone. But I do like to know what others think of, as it might tell me something new that I've never thought of.

Wow!!! the great poster on behalf of theism is a self claimed atheist, even ur gr8 foe karnivore was not able to discover it.

I would like to correct you on the bolds. Its like, in 'most case' we have still not found it and in 'some cases' only 'theorised' it!

Agreed, not discovered, at least not invented though, so u believe that the truth is already there, we only need to DISCOVER it. Very true, truth can't be invented. And, the theories are based on a hell lot of research and convincing a hell lot of people; u know how much competition is there in scientists for just a name against a theory (this smiley is for those scientists)

Scientists have defined 1 light year as the distance covered by light in one year. Based on this measure we say that a star A is 1000 light years away, B is 2000 light years away and hence so on. That means the light we are seeing now from A left it around 1000 yrs ago, from B it left 2000 yrs ago. Doesn't that mean we are viewing star A 1000 yrs in past & b 2000 yrs in past, the light "from something" which we are sensing/acknowledging right now, "that something" might not be there in reality?? Similary we view SUN 8 minutes in the past. The same goes for sound. Considering all the advancement of science till date, which have "enchanced" the reach of naked eye/ears etc to see distance stars clearly and even tiny particles, can we answer all these philosophical questions??

and

Aren't you doin an injustice to me by not supporting youself either with your logic or some facts & then asking like 'whats philosophical here'? Who questioned if the source wasn't there? Your ball example isn't much comparable to 'light from stars' as there is much difference between the physics behind "light" and that of a "ball". The simple philosophical points 'in addition' to ones that you didnt' support but merely called it "FACT etc", are

I'm a bit confused, I thought u r pressuring on the bolded part, hence comes the philosophical part. Again I'm lost, plz explain what is philosophical in that part of ur post.
Now, now don't start by saying that ball and light is not same, so my example is not right. I'm sure u've got what i wanted to express??

1. Aren't our senses decieving us also? How accurate can you be when you see a star.

Sorry I can't say. I'm really clueless on how to recognize which is what star, and how to tell if they are present or not. Scientists or astronomers can, u better research on how to recognize a dead star or such things.

2. As I recall even when we have developed great telescopes, the universe still looks the same almost everywhere.

at least more magnified than previously which helps to know what is the(any)thing.

As for the light from distance stars not only involves distance, but also something which they call "bending of light". For the simplest negation of ur example n to tell that its not comparable, distance=1km,t=10s means velocity shud be equal to 100m/s (nearly equal to 1/3 the speed of sound) under the "assumed" circumstances that there is no friction from air, or from land that bounces the ball back. If u take the "reality" into account, then probabilty of ball not reaching 1km in 10 seconds (or stopping at half the distance) becomes much greater. And since u revealed that its a bowling machine for a batsman I hope it wasn't thrown like a missile at an angle of 45 degrees but rather properly like they ball in reality.

awwww.......now u r kidding with me, u've pretty much understood what I wanted to tell.

Since, u said "I'm stuck to God" and portayed me like "you(theists)", then I guess that not only u shud have seen my vote but also researched on this thread.

hmmmm.......
I saw ur post.
U voted in "who cares/don't have time option" and and u've most number of replies on this topic.
U r a self claimed atheist
U post for theism.
Now I'm really confused, do u know what r u or what do u support? I think u r an agnostic

You must understand that I'm a completely neutral party much like an observer.

and u've most responses in this topic

and in a A statement like "Theists : God killed dinos",(imagination), sounds as illogical to me as "Atheists : ITS a FACT, science can answer everything, whats philosphical in it,

are.......jah....
why everything have to be philosophical?? Some are bold truth also. Accept it.

we already know it", thus either not answering the questions properly,

we, who r not scientists are not having minute details of everythig, so, sorry we wont be able to help u in that, but if want to know about something we can happily refer u links for better explaination.

or ignoring them or not accepting that science hasn't so far been able to answer them.

when we say we can't, means we can't. No involvement of ignorance in there. And plz, try to answer the questions in my imaginary conversations in ur language. Plz, now don't u ignore.

And since u r feeling the energy to post and discuss, then read the thread from the start first. I have already put forward many of my points. Many others did similarly & I have no desire to change ur mind.

Oh yeah I've read till 18 pages{from first page to continuous 18 and then 21 to till now) of this thread and already posted a long time ago; urs and karnis post r most knowledgeable, at least u guys know what u r saying.

 

[keshavasiva]

But in every books (history or literature), places( countries, states, districts, rooms, foto frames) we c gandhi being painted or sculptured alike. U know the reson?? Because, once upon a time he was alive.

yes its true but wrong place..!! he is a living entity and what he was talking about was GOd .. there no question of he being alive... he is there all the time. Can you tell me the tip of the universe??/ where it ends... Don't tell me that scientists are going to identigy it... its waste... they think they identified it but again some or the other theory comes up saying it extends 10cm more cuz of a refraction which the other one didn't observe... ain't that funy??*www.thinkdigit.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif

Images like Krishna,Vishnu and a whole host of others, are exactly that-images. They were meant to make the idea of your subconscious being God, easier to understand.

OOps ! I missed this subconcious thing!
There is nothing like imagination for explanation or ease making.!
They are for real... That is the next thing after you understand ifrst that god exists otherwise your mind won't appreciate it .. rite... ! there are many people who think that everyone is god and light is god etc.... so first they believe that there exists some god... After we transit that phase, it makes sense, atleast for me, to talk bout it..!!
Make me clear on that part.. will ya?

 

[Faun]

lolz *s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj44/visio159/Unismilies/70.png