*** Science Or God? ***

Science or God?


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Faun

Wahahaha~!
Staff member
^^to be precise i agree that any kinda natural treatment is better than synthetic one.

There are lot less chances of something gone wrong and side effects. Nature has everything, u just need to lookout. But hell yeah why do we look out if we can do the same thing by synthesizing them in labs. Even if we aren't prefect, our machines aren't precise.
 

legolas

Padawan
@mediator, you should for once read my reply and stop starting every thread with "ok, you dint read my links..". its boring, really.

what i told is, if it were to be invented/discovered today, then it would not be allowed to be treated on humans with empirical formulae or ideas alone, just as alcohol is now being constantly discussed to be prone illegal and also would have been illegal if introduced today. Even, protests are happening on testing on animals now-a-days isn't it?? I don't hail or disclaim the miraculous carnival homeopathy has had over the years and the years to come.

what if someone discovered something say, in a year from now similar to homeopathy, only better, and it claims to work great on humans, but not yet tested, (I am speaking about the stage when it was first discovered and it began to be tested on humans, please understand this before providing links), and works miraculously on many diseases and when asked how, i just say, internal energy energizes and purifies your soul letting all the bacterias clinging on to your soul leave or something like that, you say, you would be willing to try my CLAIM and believe in me solely, while I say, I would rather for some other guinea pigs like you who try on it and see if anything happens before even thinking or arguing about it, while I still don't believe it.

you can't prevent it. this is why, when there are no proper claims and people start believing in it, it leads to many even more idiotic claims coming up. for ex: even if you believe horoscopes which decides on planetory positions to decide your life alterations and happenings... when no one questioned it.. then came "nadi joshiyam", "palmistry", and in the US equally worse, I already mentioned above, tarot, card reading, magic ball reading, mind reading, ghost revelation, divine intervention.
 
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mediator

Technomancer
legolas said:
@mediator, you should for once read my reply and stop starting every thread with "ok, you dint read my links..". its boring, really.
I have been quoting each n every line of urs, n u say I haven't read ur posts? BTW why r u replying only to the part in which I quoted u, why not the part I quoted others? I too asked a lotta questions. It really doesn't matter whome I asked. OK, don't read my links atleast read the para I quoted "from" the links. And then u say, u can't even do that making it look like "tons of paras" have been mounted on u.

legolas said:
what i told is, if it were to be invented/discovered today, then it would not be allowed to be treated on humans with empirical formulae or ideas alone, just as alcohol is now being constantly discussed to be prone illegal and also would have been illegal if introduced today. Even, protests are happening on testing on animals now-a-days isn't it?? I don't hail or disclaim the miraculous carnival homeopathy has had over the years and the years to come.

I understand what u r trying to say. If protests are happening to save animals from cruelty then thats a good thing. But from scientific point of view I question that approach, since animals are certainly different from humans and again (repeating!!) within humans to our immunity level etc is different.

So I repeated again. And yes it becomes boring like that. The links I gave tells about science and this discussion, why science can't move further, why it has its flaws and limitations. If don't wanna read em (those tons of para..) then say straight away. I'm not forcing or pleading u to read em in anyway. Its for those who want to learn, understand and think a little differently and broadmindedly than how it has been traditionally with "modern science".


I guess ur next post will say nuthing better. Ur words will tell themselves if u had read any of those links now. :)
 

legolas

Padawan
I guess you dint have time to read and comment on the other two paras I wrote, I might have been editing while you were replying.

Either ways, if theories are scientifically baseless, it can be written as an unproven concept only and only that. Not to be put into use. If so, then we are paving way for a gazillion of baseless theories "to be put into use" claiming the same reasons for which the other baseless theory came "into practice". I have nothing else to say. Whether or not it works is not the issue.

The content you pasted from the link says how homeopathy has been effective than any other medicine and stuffs... The point is, I really dont care about it and neither am I speaking about it. And I hope you do understand that??
All I question is 1) the morality about how it came into existence in the first place!! They must have tested it on humans or directly administering medicines to people claiming its validity, right?? I say, that claim is not moral. Its what we in "modern medicine" or "modern science" as you like to call, claim as "experimental drug". It may work. It may not. But we don't know. All we can tell is statistics, out of 100 people 51 were cured.. the statistics is agreeable and stuffs. 2) paving way for more theories like this without proper cause being put into practice directly with only claims.
 
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mediator

Technomancer
Hmmm.... Neways I was just reading this thread from the start. And wow, I underestimated it. A lot of people have posted questions like mine with some really nice links. :)
 

karnivore

in your face..
Sorry, took me a while to post. Sunday turned out to be unusually hectic and so did Monday. Anyway, here goes.

@kenwatts

The status of any blogger on any given day, is always that of a "Tom, Dick and a Harry". Academic or professional achievements only beg for a more close reading and thats all that there is.

Reading your blog, i did not stumble upon anything ground-breakingly new or radical. What you say is your theory (you definitely say "My own current theory...", in a way that gives the impression that it is homegrown) is nothing but the age old argument of "dualism". And since you have kept it as vague as possible, it was not possible for me to deduce what form of "dualism" you are talking of, and assumed it to be Cartesian Dualism, more popularly know as Substance dualism. Again nothing new there.

What however, irked me, was the term "spiritual atheism". Although your blog is conspicuous by the absence of any sort of explanation of spirituality, as you understand - specially when you claim that spirituality is not "capitulation to religion" - you merrily claim your self to be a "spiritual atheist".

If i get the logic right (which i hope i did) then it goes on like this:

1. I don't believe in god, hence i am an atheist.
2. I believe in dualism, hence i am spiritual.
3. Hence i am "spiritual atheist"

Following the same logic, one may mischievously say:

1. I believe in god, hence i am a theist.
2. I don't believe in dualism, hence i am non-spiritual (this argument follows from your own revelation that spiritualism does not capitulate to religion and thus the reverse is true)
3. Hence i am "non-spiritual theist"

Doesn't make much sense does it.

Take care.

Moving on......

After irritatingly long quotes of entire sites, decorated nicely and colourfully with smilies and links, we get to understand homeopathy in the following terms.

1. "Vitality", which is something non-physical and automatically outside the scope of science, is the core tenet of homeopathy.

This begs for an explanation. How does the physical substance interact with something non-physical or vice-versa ? Homeopathy medicine is material (physical), vital force is non-material (non-physical) and body, again, is material (physical). We are given to understand that science can't answer that question. Fine. How about an answer on a purely philosophical level. Also, which part of the body acts as the liaison between the physical and non-physical ? Even if we consider that vital force is true, there has to be some part of the body with which it has to interact, otherwise, the body won't heal.

2. Homeopathy works. It has worked for so many years and millions of satisfied customer is proof enough of its validity.

So has astrology, numerology, palmistry, crystal-ball reading, voodoo and so many other crap. That does not make these valid in any sense. Homeopathy "works" on the psychology of the patient, simply put (or is it ??) it is nothing but "PLACEBO". And since placebo can't treat chronic ailments (still no proof of that) or ailments that require surgical intervention, Homeopathy is, predictably and admittedly, ineffective in those cases too. Placebo, was not understood, at least scientifically, even 50 years ago. It is much to the credit of the ancient Chinese philosophers, that they observed this phenomena, but since they could not understand it properly, they took the easiest route - spirituality. "Chi", "vitality" etc are nothing but an attempt to explain this amazing ability of our brain to heal the body and it is this that is called PLACEBO.

3. Isn't it enough that homeopathy cures patient, that too, without side effects. Does it matter how it does, when we know that it does.

This is more a question of ethics and morality, than anything. The question is, is it ethical to trick a patient into believing that he is being treated when actually he is being fleeced for money. Isn't it exploitation of ones weakness (These apply to all form of medicine, including Allopathy). Also, isn't it a moral responsibility of the claimant of "miraculous" healing to prove how "miraculous" his healing really is.

4. Modern medicine has many unexplained corners of its own. Why don't the critics of homeopathy question the validity of modern science ?

Given the sheer voluming of documented observation, proof and explanation of how hundreds of medicine work and interact with body, the unexplained corners of modern medicine do not provoke enough, to question its fundamental principles. Besides, we are completely overlooking the surgical side of it.

5. Instead of cursing homeopathy, why don't the critics do something worthwhile and probe to find an explanation ?

This is confusion at best or hypocrisy at worst. Fist, take homeopathy outside the scope of science, then ask science to explain it and then conveniently blame it for not doing enough. Its like, "you prove my point, while i take a nap. if you can't prove my point, its your fault. and, until you prove it, it is spiritual". In other words, the moment, science provides an "acceptable" explanation, all homeopathy-sympathizers will junk "spirituality" in favour of "science". Actually, science does explain homeopathy, but only as PLACEBO. But obviously, this is not a satisfactory answer for the quacks. Because, even though placebo "proves" to some extent that homeopathy works, it blows to smithereens, the very principle of homeopathy. Cause, what homeopathy does, can be done, without much ado, by common salt also.

Sorry for being repetitive. Just wanted to summarize and answer.

PS: 19th century medicine was just barbaric. Half the bodily functions were not know, and even less was known about the right method of treatment. Medical treatment during that time was nothing less than a torture, some sort of a trial and error method. "Modern medicine", as we know it today, was in its infancy, slowly, but surely taking shape. Quoting statistics (not to mention, those sources are far from reliable) from that era will serve no purpose for homeopathy, and certainly not prove homeopathy is better. It is absolutely ridiculous to quote 19th century data in 2008.

There is a recognized method of drug trials. First these are tested on animals. When the results meet certain criteria, these are then tested on humans. And only if these meet another set of criteria, these are allowed to be marketed or prescribed. It is disgustingly true, that corporates, sometimes do not go through these field trials on humans for lure of profit. But, again it is a question of ethics and modern science has nothing to do with it.

Frankly, i am getting tired of hearing that science is "flawed". In spite of @legolas's quite articulate commentary on our achievements with our "flawed" science, the harping continues. Not withstanding the fact that "fallacies" are intentionally being labeled as "flaws", it just seems that hundreds and thousands of correct applications of our science is not proof enough, that we got our basic science correct. Just because something can't be explained today, it does not automatically transpire that it can never be explained. This has been driven home by so many members for so many times. And it is absolutely asinine to predict that "science can't move further".
 
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mediator

Technomancer
@karnivore : long time no see :D

karnivore said:
1. "Vitality", which is something non-physical and automatically outside the scope of science, is the core tenet of homeopathy.

This begs for an explanation. How does the physical substance interact with something non-physical or vice-versa ? Homeopathy medicine is material (physical), vital force is non-material (non-physical) and body, again, is material (physical). We are given to understand that science can't answer that question. Fine. How about an answer on a purely philosophical level. Also, which part of the body acts as the liaison between the physical and non-physical ? Even if we consider that vital force is true, there has to be some part of the body with which it has to interact, otherwise, the body won't heal.
Ur scope of thinking hasn't improved yet. Please define what is intelligence, behaviour, common sense etc. What are emotions? "How and why" is it that physical health affects mental condition and mental condition affects ur physical? One of the symptoms of diabetes/pimples AFAIK is tension. But is taking too much tension physical?? Why shud it have effects on our physical body??

Chinese developed accupressure/accupunture. They produced a term called "yin-yang". They say our body is made up of yin yang (-ve energy and +ve energy). Its the imbalance of these that causes diseases, pain etc. Why is that inspite of being so old and successful it has yet not been scientifically explained?

One of the critics says, "The traditional acupuncture points are no more real than the black spots a drunkard sees in front of his eyes.". But those black spots have their own principles in accupuncture!! Shud I then mark science as a failure??

People here argue with me that if science has not been so successful, then we wud not have learnt so much about universe, planets etc. But we see modern scientists telling and explaining the Universe with the use of hypothetical terms like "dark matter" and "dark energy" to make things work out!! Yes we have invented telescopes and modern infrastructure. But even then 1000s of years ago our ancient Indians knew of the color of planets, how planets rotate etc.

Modern Science likes to talk "about" Universe and what universe comprises of. But has it actually understood what Universe is?? Does science know what how vast universe is and anything regarding its boundaries?? What is beyond our universe?? Yes it has formed "theories" and people like to tell others how cool they are by knowing the theories even when they really don't know that its just a theory not a fact!! It doesn't know "why" and it doesn't know "how"!

If homeopathy works n is found to be effective, then why is the only option left is to start doubting them, simply becoz they violate the laws of chemistry?? Why can't we be skeptical towards the prevailing "theories and 'limited' laws" since science is known to be changing, modifying itself to attain perfection??

karnivore said:
This is more a question of ethics and morality, than anything. The question is, is it ethical to trick a patient into believing that he is being treated when actually he is being fleeced for money. Isn't it exploitation of ones weakness (These apply to all form of medicine, including Allopathy). Also, isn't it a moral responsibility of the claimant of "miraculous" healing to prove how "miraculous" his healing really is.
Like I said before, I had a tough cough for 4 months and ,had it in winter season a few yrs ago too, that was literally cracking me apart. I really didn't know what medicine the doctor gave me. But since it was highly effective from the day 1, it made me eager to know more about it. I don't think there exists any exploitation or if I was being "fleeced for money"!!

On the other hand a lotta modern medcines are known to have lotta side affects. Some even have caused deaths. So shud I say those scientifically tested modern medicines are ineffective where taking of one causes a side effect for which we have to take another medicine, or may even lose our life?
repeated said:
The current damage from use of nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs alone causes in excess of 10,000 deaths a year. And overall, iatrogenic disease (caused by medical treatments) is responsible for as many as 140,000 deaths a years.
..
In 1854, the British Parliament authorized the London Board of Health to appoint a commission to see which treatments were best for cholera victims. They found "regular" hospitals had a death rate of 54 percent; the homeopathic hospital's death rate was 16 percent.
...
..
Even still, by the mid-19th century, homeopathy had much success. For example, homeopaths treated cholera successfully, long before it was known that the actual cause was a microbe. During the 19th century, there were seven severe epidemics in America, the most serious in 1832. The death rates of people treated without homeopathy were five times those of the homeopaths.
This again leads me to repeat a small copy....

*www.jcrows.com/modernmedicine.html
The idea of scientific medicine is a great one, but is modern medicine truly, or even adequately, "scientific"?

Modern medicine uses the double-blind and placebo-controlled trial as the gold standard by which effectiveness of a treatment is determined. On the surface, this scientific method is very reasonable. However, serious problems in these studies are widely acknowledged by academics but remain unknown to the general public. Fundamental questions about the meaning of the word "efficacy" are rarely, if ever, raised.

For instance, just because a drug treatment seems to eliminate a specific symptom doesn't necessarily mean that it is "effective." In fact, getting rid of a specific symptom can be the bad news. Aspirin may lower your fever, but physiologists recognize that fever is an important defense of the body in its efforts to fight infection. Painkilling drugs may eliminate the acute pain in the short term, but because these drugs do not influence the underlying cause of the discomfort, they do not really heal the person, and worse, they can lead to physical and psychological dependency, addiction, tolerance, and increased heart disease. Sleep-inducing drugs may lead you to fall asleep, but they do not lead to refreshed sleep, and these drugs ultimately tend to aggravate the cycle of insomnia and fatigue. Uncertainty remains for the long-term safety and efficacy of many modern drugs for common ailments, despite the high hopes and sincere expectations from the medical community and the rest of us for greater certainty.

The bottom line to scientific research is that a scientist can set up a study that shows the guise of efficacy. In other words, a drug may be effective for a very limited period of time and afterwards cause various serious symptoms. For example, a very popular anti-anxiety drug called Xanax was shown to reduce panic attacks during a two-month experiment, but once the person tries to reduce or stop the medication, panic attacks can increase 300-400 percent ( Consumer Reports , 1993).Would as many patients take this drug if they knew this fact, and based on what standard can anyone honestly say that this drug is "effective"?

To get FDA approval to market a drug, most of the studies for psychiatric conditions last only six weeks (Angell, 2004, 112). In view of the fact that most people take anti-depressant or anti-anxiety medicines for many years, how can anyone consider these short-term studies scientifically valid? What is so little known and so sobering is that research to date has found that placebos were 80 percent as effective as the drugs-with fewer side effects (Angell, 2004, 113).

Marcia Angell,MD, author of the powerful book The Truth about Drug Companies , said it plainly and directly: "Trials can be rigged in a dozen ways, and it happens all the time" (Angell, 2004, 95). Conventional drugs used today are so new that there is very little longterm research on them. There are good reasons why the vast majority of modern drugs that were used just a couple of decades ago are not prescribed any more: They don't work as well as previously assumed, and/or they cause more harm than good.

Sadly and strangely, physicians do not see that there is something fundamentally wrong with the present medical model. Instead, once an old drug is found to be ineffective or dangerous, doctors and drug companies simply assert the "scientifically proven" efficacy of a new drug. Despite this recurrent pattern, doctors are prescribing drugs at record-breaking rates:



In 2005 the volume of prescription drugs sold in the U.S. was equal to 12.3 drugs for every man, woman, and child in that year alone (compared to 1994, when 7.9 prescription drugs per year were on average purchased by every American). (Kaiser Family Foundation, 2006)


According to a 2005 study, 44 percent of all Americans take at least one prescription drug and 17 percent take three or more prescription drugs (This number increased 40 percent between 1994 and 2000). ( Medscape , 2005)

The extremely high numbers listed above are considerably higher if one adds in the over-the-counter drugs that doctors recommend or that patients take on their own.When a patient takes more than one drug at a time, the research conducted on each of the drugs individually becomes virtually meaningless. Considering how many people take two or more drugs together raises serious doubts about the scientific ground on which physicians stand (except in those few instances when a multiple-drug protocol has been tested, as has occurred with some drugs in the treatment of people with AIDS).

One might hope that the American public would greatly benefit from receiving the "best" and certainly most expensive care that modern medicine has to offer. However, this simply isn't true. In fact, the following statistics powerfully state the real limitations of what the "best"medical care provides:


According to 2006 data, the infant mortality rate in the United States was ranked twenty-first in the world, worse than South Korea and Greece and only slightly better than Poland.


Data from 2006 also showed that the life expectancy rate in the United States was ranked seventeenth in the world, tied with Cyprus and only slightly ahead of Albania. (InfoPlease, 2007)

One of the largest drug companies in the world is GlaxoSmithKline. It was therefore a bit shocking, but not surprising, when Allen Roses, worldwide vice-president of genetics, acknowledged that "The vast majority of drugs -- more than 90 percent -- only work in 30 percent or 50 percent of the people" (Connor, 2003). The public is not frequently given this degree of honesty.

karnivore said:
Frankly, i am getting tired of hearing that science is "flawed". In spite of @legolas's quite articulate commentary on our achievements with our "flawed" science, the harping continues. Not withstanding the fact that "fallacies" are intentionally being labeled as "flaws", it just seems that hundreds and thousands of correct applications of our science is not proof enough, that we got our basic science correct. Just because something can't be explained today, it does not automatically transpire that it can never be explained. This has been driven home by so many members for so many times. And it is absolutely asinine to predict that "science can't move further".
I have never said the whole of science is flawed. Don't make me repeat what I said. But ur argument can be used against u too. On one hand we have cases of thoroughly tested modern medicines and yet failing. On the other hand successful homeopathy, but not scientifically explained. If ur argue as bolded, then tell how can u term anything that is working, successful as crap?? A true scientific soul doesn't disregard anything like that u know.


Also, spirituality and science are different topics, each having its own place. So don't tell if science cannot explain spirituality and vice versa.

Home / Table of Contents
Chapter 4
Scientific Temper and Vedic Science

In the Vedas the focal point is the human being and the knowledge contained there in is for the welfare of the entire mankind. This knowledge also helps the human beings to develop scientific out look. The Vedic science is only in the context of his/her material and spiritual welfare. Unlike the present day, physical sciences are part of Vedic metaphysics, which unequivocally explain that physical sciences pertain mostly to the external world that is objectively real and not absolutely real.

To get a feel of Vedic physical sciences, reference to a few hymns are given in the very beginning. The Sun never sets or rises and it is the earth, which rotates (Sama Veda121). The gravitational effect of solar system makes the earth stable (R.V.1-103-2, 1-115-4 and 5-81-2). The axle of the earth does not get rusted and the earth continues to revolve on its axle (R.V. 1-164-29). The science of Time and its subtle nature is described in (R.V.1-92-12 and 1-95-8). The need to study the properties of water, air and fire for discovering and manufacturing aircrafts, ships and other vehicles capable of moving in the firmament, land and water are mentioned in Rig Veda 1-3-1,2, 1-34-1, 1-140-1 and many other hymns. Reference to infinite number of both gross and subtle atoms and the energy principle as spirit of God in each atom is given in R.V. 5-47-2 and Sama Veda 222. Atoms and sub atomic particles are not inert and have unsuspected vitality owing to this energy principle. Physical sciences relating to agriculture, medicine, astronomy mathematics particularly algebra, toxicology etc. are described in R.V.1-71-9, 4-57-5, Sama Veda 121 and many other hymns.

However, the greater emphasis is on the development of scientific temper amongst the members of Society with a view to curb spread of blind faith, hypocrisy, miracle and ostentatious worship of God. Thus the knowledge of Vedic sciences is meant to save the human beings from falling in utter darkness as Isa Upanishad and the last chapter of Yajur Veda caution us. The unity in diversity is the message of Vedic physical and metaphysical sciences. While matter is the cause of diversity owing to three primordial subtle particles of purity, activity and passivity present in it, the spirit (jiva) provides the necessary unity.

The physical sciences have traversed a long journey of over two thousands years independent of Vedic metaphysics. During this long journey they came to certain contradictory conclusions. Many scientists held that the Sun is moving and the earth is static and vice versa. The gross matter and its atoms are inert as observed by the scientist of classical mechanics and now in the 20th century particle physics have found that atom is no longer inert and matter also experiences “fatigue” and many more contradictions. The Vedic science remained consistent during all this period. However, science is now itself proving in the laboratory some of the Vedic scientific truths.

In the 20th century with the bursting of atom into pieces through particle physics, faith in the Vedic science has grown stronger. The atom is no longer inert and has unsuspected vitality. Vedas had already mentioned about 4 to 5 thousands years ago the existence of “spirit” (Jiva) as energy principle in all gross and subtle atoms. Chhandogya Upanishad says, “From this engenderment beams of light shot up and down, gross matter was formed and Prakrti - the divine Nature too expanded in all ten directions, as the Sentient One spread Itself every where - high, low, here and beyond.” Rig-Veda (5-47-2) refers to infinite number of both gross and subtle atoms born from the Eternal Cause. The subtle primordial matter is the cause of origin of gross matter and spread itself every where like the light of the Sun and go round the earth and sky. Vedas thus in a metaphysical language tell us the existence of rays, waves, wavicles and even subtle particles in gross atoms and all consisting of subtle primordial matter of three gunas. It is the Creative Force - the spirit, which hides behind animate and inanimate things/ life, moves us, move the planets and moves the Universe. Sama Veda 222 describes the same scientific truth as; “HE keeps His wonderful form in every atom and pervades earth, middle region and the sky.” Rig Veda 1-81-5 and 1-83-2 mention about the subtle cause of this vast Universe in the form of various kinds of atoms and particles. The atoms follow the eternal laws described as Rta in the Vedas. Rig Veda 1-22-18 says, “ HE ordains these laws”. Vedas even refer to subtle particles (tan matras), which are more powerful and fast moving than gross atoms, and particles. Such subtle atoms and particles are found in ether, light, Time and Space in the outer phenomenal world and also exist in the inner world of divine instruments. Thus such subtle particles are found in manas - the inward looking mind, buddhi - intellect etc. These finer atoms and particles are not seen through sense organs, or any material instruments.

It has taken over 4000 years for the scientists to find out in the laboratory that gross atoms are not inert, which Vedic sages and seers had already found through their transcendental research. It may perhaps take another a few thousands of years more to find subtle atoms and particles but certainly the scientists will not find these in laboratory with the help of gross instruments. The “Ashvinaus” - the epithet for scientists in the Vedas, have to utilize their inner divine instruments for the welfare of mankind on the principle of Idd Nan Mmam - nothing for self all for society. The ignorance of scientists, economists and even religious leaders about the subtle atoms has now become the major cause of over exploitation of the earth as a quarry, leading to all kinds of pollution, environmental hazards and other moral and social degradation. Finding no divinity in matter, man’s ego exploitation continues and he finds even a sense of pride in this negativity, duly supported by modern physical sciences bereft of any spiritualism.

While some of the Greek philosophers observed four main elements, Vedic metaphysicists had found five maha bhuta i.e., earth, air, fire, water and ether. There is life in the gross atoms of maha bhuta though an ordinary person bereft of spiritual knowledge cannot visualise. Lucritus explains this phenomenon beautifully. When you see fighting men at a distance or from a height, you will perceive them at rest owing to limitations of our sense perception. Same way we find block of steel at rest. The inner life of steel, human beings cannot perceive. What philosophers in the West and Vedic rsis and munnies in the East, found a few thousands years ago was found in the laboratory only in the 20th century. An eminent Indian scientist Sir Jagdish Chander Bose proved this metaphysical finding. He found with the help of gross instruments in the laboratory some kind of “fatigue” in metal just like human beings. Gross atoms even in an inanimate thing are born, develop and lose vitality and die. They have mind of their own.

In the early 20th century scientists went on experimenting and finally made the gross atom burst into pieces under the impact of particle Physics and Chemistry. Since then science is changing very fast and too frequently. Biology is changing rather fast from one certainty to another. One day it is all environments and another day is hereditary and next day both combined. Psychology which refuted consciousness which in the Vedas is due to the presence of divine soul in the gross body, has started feeling its existence but without linking it with the manifested soul (Jivatma). The eminent scientist Eddingnton’s proposition says, “recognizing that all the physical world is entirely abstract and without actuality, apart from its linkage to consciousness - even time and space are spun out of consciousness.” In atom a large number of sub-atomic particles have been found, including some waves and wavicles and no material nuclei at the bottom. Unlike Vedas where science is part of metaphysics, the modern scientists are largely resisting its merger with the science of soul, beauty and virtue, which Bhagavad Gita describes as the sovereign science.

Today, a large number of scientists, engineers, doctors, physicians, surgeons in India and abroad are in search of their inner world through various cults, god men, swamis and sub-religions but still feel hesitant in openly declaring the urgent need of merging science with spiritual knowledge and metaphysics. Many of the Indian scientists still argue that the existence of Vedic knowledge about atoms, electricity, aircraft, space ships etc.; is not a reality but at best a scientific fiction, mythology or a fairy tale. Their argument is highly superficial, as Vedas nowhere mention that such devices actually existed in the ancient Vedic period ranging from about 3000 BC to 1000 BC or even later. The Vedic hymns only advise the Ashvinaus (scientists) to continue their research in the laboratory as well as in their inner world; they will succeed in such discoveries and inventions for the prosperity of entire mankind. They should do their research on the philosophy of Idd Nan Mmam, which is Vedic enlightened liberalism, i.e. nothing for self all for the society.

As regards the creation of earth and life on it the modern scientists are coming to new discoveries that all life came out of inanimate things. The world itself came in to existence owing to Big Bang or intense energy but still would not like to call it Cosmic Energy of the God. In the beginning there was no life of any kind but after millions of years some rudimentary life emanated, sperms, protozoon, bacteria or any other type of life from inanimate things. Plants that could move for food became animals and animals that could stand on their legs became human beings. Prima facie all scientific conclusions are moving towards Vedic science and metaphysics. Since modern physical sciences have inherent limitations of sense perception and intellectual outfit of human beings, scientists are not sure whether to link their scientific conclusions, discoveries with Vedic science. However, the fact remains that scientists know less about matter today what they thought about a century ago. In the Vedas Creation is linked to Cosmic Word “OM”, which caused immense cosmic energy. This Energy got converted mass as Hiranya- garbha (Cosmic golden Egg) When it opened/burst, subtle primordial matter of three gunas started appearing and when the same joined in appropriate proportion, gross universe was created in stages.

Scientists are now doing their best to know the complete properties of all the elements on this earth as known to them today. However, they have not succeeded in the laboratory to know how these elements got their properties, what is the cause of various scientific laws and many other a priori principles of the divine Nature? It is in these areas that Vedic metaphysics help the ashvinauas and ribhus- scientists and manufacturers to get together for various scientific discoveries. There after they should move together or the manufacture of equipment, goods and other items for the welfare and prosperity of mankind throughout the world in the spirit of Vishva Bandhutva, which is Vedic terminology for universal brotherhood.

Some of the Vedic hymns tend to show that in the ancient societies there would have been a general atmosphere of superstition, mysticism, sorcery, animism and other negativities, which was perhaps creating an evil effect on the members of certain closed societies. It is perhaps for this reason some of the then metaphysicists, social reformers and preceptors did their long years of transcendental research with the help of their divine instruments of their inner worlds. Their sincere dedication and urge to fight the social evils savagely and effectively led to certain discoveries of permanent scientific truths. For a common man it would appear that God directly revealed these truths to those pathfinders. Hindus largely consider these Vedas containing these revelations as Shruti - directly heard from God. Guru Nanak- the founder of Sikh religion based on Vedic Dharma had observed, “Om kar Veda Nirmayi”. God (Om kar) revealed the Vedas, so that one could distinguish between right and wrong, sin and virtue.

The ancient lovers of wisdom and pathfinders through their intuitive and speculative research found that material instruments like senses, sense organs, etani-out ward looking mind in any human body, give distortion to our sense perception. Under their influence we can mistake rope for a snake and vice versa, see big stars and planets as too small, conch shells in water look like silver etc. Sankracharya observed, “He and His spirit can not be accounted for any logical reasoning or material sciences as our minds are limited by the finite world of phenomenon and illusory senses.” Vedic rsis and munnies went into deep meditation, concentration and contemplation and discovered a large number of permanent laws pertaining to physical sciences.

For a common man to understand and apply these laws they devised a perfect model of education system to get dedicated scientists and manufacturers. Till the age of 5 years of a child, mother is the teacher. Between the ages of 5 to 8 years father is the teacher. From the age of 8 years to 48 years learned rsis and savants who were mostly the preceptors or gurus. Guru word is from Gu - darkness and Ru - to dispel. Thus Vedic gurus were dispellers of both inner and outer darkness of the students who are mentioned in the Vedas as Brahmachari - seeker of Brahma’s knowledge. A number of qualifying examinations is mentioned at various ages of the students, but the first-degree examination is at the age of 24 years. Those who qualify this examination are fit to become rulers, officers in the Army and Navy, bureaucrats, scientists, etc. In the Vedas, there is no mention of Air Force any where as aero planes did not exist at that time. The next major examination is at the age of 36 years. Those who qualify are awarded the degree of Rudrais who are highly learned persons in various subjects including physical sciences and metaphysics. The last examination is at the age of 48 years and those who qualify are Adityas and they are akin to Prakrti devas (shining ones) of the Vedas.

At each stage of education the aim is to create scientific outlook amongst the students so that all superstitions, blind faith and conviction could disappear in society. The followers of non-divine professions like economic and social exploiters, tricksters and other evil minded persons only studied material sciences from false gurus and these students are described as the students of ne-science. These students belong to the categories of Yatudhani, Kimidin, Vritras, Avarnas, etc., and their education under the guidance of false gurus is the cause of lack of scientific outlook in society. To save society from the spread of evils of blind faith, unscientific outlook and physical sciences bereft of spiritual science and metaphysics, the rulers have been advised to segregate such people from others who are followers of divine and noble professions.

In the Vedas scientists are described as men and women of absolute self-control, truthful with scientific outlook and destroyers of miseries (R.V., 1-3-4). With the help of these scientists one could travel far on the earth and also in the sky through conveyances, which run and touch the middle region (R.V., 1-3-1, 6-22-2 and 1-22-2). Such scientists from both the sexes go across to distance places quickly like the mind and electricity (R.V., 1-71-9). In this hymn aircrafts and even space ships are hinted. These ashvinaus should be well versed in Physics, Agricultural sciences (R.V. 4-57-5), Medical sciences (R.V. 5-74-3), Astronomy (S.V. 121) and other sciences. Ashvinaus have been advised to learn thoroughly about Prakrti (Nature), characteristics and various qualities of water, air, fire, electricity and heat and sound energy. Other sciences mentioned are Toxicology and use of various kinds of medicines and drugs (R.V 1-191-14), science of Time (Kala vidya) that starts with dawn (Usha). R.V. 1-95-2, and 10, refers to use of time for mathematics. There is a mention of infrared rays, study of Algebra (Rekha di ganit vidya), sound as a medium of knowledge for various sciences, diseases like bile, cough, jaundice and others and their treatment etc. The relevant hymns in this regard are in Rig-Veda 1-185-2, 1-12-1, 2, 1-22-1 to 4, 1-2-3, 1-95-1, 1-101-1 and many others.

The Vedas combine science with metaphysics and clearly mention that it is God who is the giver of knowledge of all sciences as “Sahstra sam “ (R.V. 1-10-11). The scientists are advised to study cause and effect of all material elements and also how the objects are produced and there after utilize these properly (R.V. 5-47-3). By following these guidelines they can alleviate much sufferings of the people (R.V. 5-77-4). Without the knowledge and practical application of physical sciences, it is not possible to eradicate poverty and attain prosperity (R.V. 1-34-1 to 5).

The philosophy of Advait Vedanta or absolute monism is more like modern science. The universe is made of one substance i.e., matter whose form is perpetually changing. While the sum total of the entire energy in the Nature remains always the same, explanation of things in the entire substance are to be found within their own nature. No external beings or existence are required to explain what is going on in the universe with its corollary of a self-existence universe. Modern physical scientists now concede that the sensory and intellectual outfit of the scientists inviolably limits science. There is some thing beyond gross atoms but human senses and material instruments have not succeeded in finding these out. Thus there is indirect confirmation of the scientific version of the concept of Vedic Maya (phantasmagoria). Amongst the Indian metaphysicists, Advait Vedantist Sankracharya explained this concept of cosmic illusion in great details in his various commentaries and Brahma Sutras. In the West, Plato and later Immanuel Kant also observed this world of phenomenon perceived as real by human senses. Sankracharya had thus anticipated the modern scientific notion that we get only glimpses of the world and the universe owing to our inherent limitations.

Mind only interprets whatever is fed by the senses and owing to inherent limitations of knowledge, gives a distorted picture of the categories of the subject, time and space. Bhagavad Gita distinguishes two kinds of mind, i.e., Etani and Manas. Etani is outwards looking mind influenced by the senses and external phenomenal world and as such has inherent limitations. Manas is inwards looking mind and gets a priori and a posteriori knowledge both from the outer and inner world. Since the modern scientists do their research based on the data obtained from the external and phenomenal world without the help of their inner divine instruments, their findings very often get modified. Particle physics is vastly different from the classical physics. Newton’s laws of motion stand greatly modified with Einstein’s theory of relativity. The matter of Tyndall and Huxley was inert and indestructible, but now it is no longer inert and has a mind and spirit in itself as per the metaphysicists and “energy” as found by particle physics scientists.

Vedas bring out that every thing material/immaterial, every form contains the spirit of God, and all else is illusion while Sankracharya prefers to use the word delusion. This Vedic knowledge is the basis of Vedanta school of Indian philosophy and particularly Advait Vedanta of pure idealists like Sankracharya and Badrayana. It is only such scientists who can do their research based on self-control, scientific out look, truthfulness and can be destroyers of human miseries as mentioned in Rig Veda (1-3-4). Thus according to Vedas the physical and natural sciences are part of the over all design of God. This metaphysically explains that in spite of the Vedic findings in regard to physical sciences being ignored, questioned, challenged and criticised without actually knowing these, but till date these have not been proved wrong. The truths contained there in are being proved in stages.

Gautma Rsi and other seers and sages of Nyaya School of Indian philosophy who based their metaphysics on Vedic knowledge consider the Sristi (Creation) as Leela (cosmic play) of God, who has fashioned the universe by His “Will” out of ever existing atoms. God being divine Will, divine Desire, omniscient, immanent and formless, produces motions in atoms by His Will and the entire process of Creation and Dissolution (One Cosmic Cycle of Sristi and Pralaya) of the universe starts. Laboratory tests of the scientists of the ancient, medieval and modern periods are steadily moving towards the above spiritual truth of the Vedas. If we consider Newton and Tyndall’s atom as inert, we may call it only as material truth of that age or in the Vedic metaphysical concept as impure and imperfect truth. It was not a spiritual truth as those scientists overlooked Vedic “spirit” of God in the void of all gross atoms. Vedas even mention the presence of this spirit as energy principle in “tan matras”, which are subtle particles. This energy principle first entered the primordial subtle matter in the form of three gunas of purity, activity and passivity and spread thereafter in different five maha tatvas and 720 tatvas (five main elements and 720 elements). Thus the Supreme Being spread Himself in all directions upwards, down wards, here and beyond. Incidentally out of 720 elements in the entire gross universe mentioned in Vedas, scientists have so far found about 150 elements on this earth.

Rsi Kanad of Vaisheshika School of Indian philosophy entirely based on Vedic metaphysics, had already observed the phenomenon of Flux. Einstein has, now confirmed in the laboratory, the Flux observed both by rsi Kanad and later by Buddha. According to Einstein most of the particles in the sub atomic world live for short period of a small fraction of a nano of a second and change to other particles, while some of those behaving like waves and wavicles. This flux in atoms is a continuous process. Einstein also made certain metaphysical observations in regard to this flux in atoms, like God does not play dice and in all probabilities God has kept some “hidden variable” responsible for this activity. Einstein could not find out this hidden variable during his lifetime and left a major scientific question for future particle physicists and advised them to continue doing research to find this variable.

This research has led to electron clouds, waves, quarks and even inter connected events “Quaritian Foam” in the atoms and universe. James Jean has gone to the extent of saying that objective reality of atoms and sub atomic particles is only events. When these events inter-connect gross atoms get formed. This scientific truth now found out, tends to show that there is some thing subtle like events on which the gross universe is formed and the subtle invisible power is more real than gross atom and universe. It is this subtle power which gives properties and characteristics to atoms of various elements. The hidden reality always remains real and atom is only illusory and part of the great flux in this phenomenal world. The laboratory test are moving towards that direction which Nyaya School said that the spirit of God or His divine Will living in void (shuniya) produced motion in all atoms. It is a separate matter that the physical scientists are still hesitant to describe the atom as an illusion/delusion of Vedic Maya.

As brought out earlier the physical sciences in the Vedas are part of the Design of the God, who is described also as “Vishwa Karma” - the supreme designer and architect of the universe. All these designs are based on Rta that are permanent truths and are His laws of social, moral and physical order. Through these Rta the physical sciences and the ideal human conduct are inter-connected since the focal point in the Vedas is the individual and his/her welfare. The Vedic Rta tells us that all human activities relating to love, hatred, affection, anger, desires, selfish and selfless actions have a circular motion. According to Vedic metaphysics these actions contain non-material subtle particles and their movements are in circular motions and come back to the individual with a bigger force. Thus all movements of the material and non-material (love, hatred, etc.) matter are in a circular motion. While gross atoms are the cause of Flux, the accumulation of subtle particles on the manifested soul (Jivatma) of the individual is the cause of one’s rebirth. This movement of births and rebirths of the manifested soul of an individual continues till one reaches the outer biggest Divine Circle. Thus the subtle particles of love, selfless service, truthfulness and other positive karma take a person towards Mukti, which is the final liberation, or salvation towards bliss.

Those individual who move towards the outer and bigger circles are normally more straight forward, as even the straight line is part of a bigger circle. It is the subtle primordial matter of inactivity, untruthfulness, hatred, hypocrisy and anger, which make the individuals move towards smaller and smaller circles. It is not possible to get any straight line there and hence such individuals are crooked, hypocrites, ungrateful, deceitful and avaricious. They even acquire many other negative qualities. This circular motion is also in the case of gross particles, atoms, earth, moon, planets, etc. Only those individuals with positive virtues and having complete knowledge of Vedic metaphysics and apply the same in their day-to-day conduct reach the outer most divine circle and attain bliss and even avoid rebirth in this phenomenal world. Material and intellectual knowledge bereft of spiritual and divine knowledge leads to mundane desires, blind pursuit of money, power, status, etc., which make the persons move towards smaller and smaller circles necessitating innumerable births and deaths, misery and sufferings. Both the Vedas and Bhagavad Gita say that spread of the knowledge contained in these scriptures i.e. Vedic metaphysics and Sciences, which help in bringing scientific outlook amongst the individuals, is the greatest service to God. In the absence of this knowledge and outlook, individuals continue to move towards smaller and self-centered circles. These persons have vague concept of society, spiritual brotherhood and their love, service and even worship of God is more a ritual and ostentation than their yearning of the soul. In the phenomenal world of matter, the material concept of three sets of circular wheels for the airplanes (Viman), 4 wheels for Ratha, i.e. vehicles moving on the ground and circular movements of the moon and planets is mentioned in many Vedic hymns.

For better appreciation of the Vedic science and various scientific truths mentioned there in and discovered by the ancient pathfinders and metaphysicists through their intuitive knowledge and transcendental research, can be mentioned in brief. Since number of hymns relating to Vedic science is in hundreds, this would only give the feel of Vedic physical sciences, including mathematics. Rig-Veda contains a number of hymns relating to sun, explaining both its physical and metaphysical characteristics. As regards the physical science, it is stated that the Sun never sets nor rises and it is the earth that rotates (Sama Veda 121). Rig Veda describes that the earth moves round in space and revolves around her pitram - the Sun. Pitram in the Vedas means father. Metaphysically Usha (dawn) and Prithvi (earth) have been mentioned as the daughters of Sun god (Suriya deva). [size=+1]In the Vedas the word deva relates to formless beings of light or the shining ones. The word god is not the exact translation of deva though it is the closest English word for deva.[/size]

Owing to the absence of Vedic knowledge in the Western part of the world, the scientists and astronomers of the ancient and medieval periods considered the Sun as moving and the earth as static. They modified their findings only during the 15th and 16th century when Copernicus put forward a novel theory that planets including the earth revolved around the Sun. The great astronomer Gallileo was even kept under house arrest for supporting Copernicus‘s theory. Even much before Copernicus, the Indian astronomer Aryabhatta independently with the help of material instruments in his laboratory confirmed like a true Vedic ashvinau (scientist) that earth revolves around the Sun and confirmed scientific truth mentioned in Rig and Sama Vedas. Incidentally astronomy is a major science in Vedas and astrology independently is nowhere mentioned as part of physical sciences.

Through the scientific methods of decoding certain astronomical code hidden in Rig Veda, Dr. Subhash Kak- a computer scientist at the Louisiana State University has found the mention of distance between Sun and the earth as well as moon and the earth. According to this finding Rig Veda mentions as a part of its cosmic science this distance as 108 times Sun Diameter in respect of Sun and the earth and 108 times moon diameter between moon and the earth. Modern astronomical studies have found the actual distance as 107.6 and 110.5 times respectively against 108 times mentioned in the Vedas. A news item published in the Indian Express dated 31-3-1993 (Ambala edition) about this remarkable accurate value can be referred to. Owing to this Vedic rsis and munnies have observed some divinity in this number 108. The ancient sages have compiled the Vedic metaphysics into 108 Upanishads. Some of the more important Upanishads are Katha, Keno, Mundakaya, Iso, Chhandogya, Brihadarnayaka, Isvarya and Aiterya. mongst the Vedic Hindus, the term Shri 108 is used for those spiritualists, preceptors and other highly learned and divine persons who have read and understood 108 Upanishads. Later certain Rsis (sages) devised a Vyjanti mala (rosary) with 108 beads/stones for keeping count of mantras (hymns) during the worship of God. Litany or Jap Yagna - a set form of prayer mentioned in the Vedas are OM Khamma Brahama (OM Thy name is Brahama), Ayam Atma Brahama (my soul is a part of God), Ekam Tat (God is One), Tat Tvam Asi (Thou art That) and many others including the mother hymn i.e., Gayatri mantra - prayer to God to provide us His divine, spiritual and material knowledge.

In the astronomical code hidden in Rig-Veda, solar year was calculated as 364.24675 days. This figure is very close to 365 days with adjustment of one day in a leap year. Considering that time was not calculated in hours, minutes and seconds as at present, the accuracy of calculation by Vedic rsis assumes greater importance. The hidden code in the Vedas leading to above calculations has been worked out by two computer experts Dr. Subhash Kak of Lousiana State University and Mr. David Frawley of the American Institute of Vedic studies (Times of India dated 8-5-1993). Rig Veda mentions that all calculations in mathematics are made i.e. duration of the year; month, day and four cosmic periods based on Sun. Mathematicians and astronomers are advised in the Veda that all calculations of time should start from the divine and brilliant Usha (dawn). Formless being of light Usha devi is described as the brilliant daughter of the glorious Surya deva (Sun). She represents dawn and time in Prakrti. Even the calculation of Pralaya and Sristi (dissolution and creation) of the universe are based on Dawn and also the Sun, after taking into consideration the gravitational effect of the entire solar system (R.V. 1-115-4). Rig-Veda 1-95-2 refers to ten directions based on the rays of Sun, with four main directions i.e. East, West, North and South. Obviously Vedic seers divided directions into an angle of 36 degrees, each which led to the discovery of the Sun watch used in ancient India.

It is the sun which upholds the earth, which rotates very fast all the time owing to Sun’s gravitational force and it makes the earth stable (R.V., 1-103-2). Savitar is the alter Ego of the Sun (Surya) that controls and provides energy to the earth by itself remaining stationary. It makes the earth move, provides light and even its rays are the cause of lightening in the clouds apart from providing gravitational force to the earth (R.V. 5-81-2). The earth revolving and going round the Sun like a calf following the mother is mentioned in R.V 1-169-9 and 1-190-7. Earth surrounded by air on all sides, revolved on its axle and measures the set path. Lightening and energy are its main manifestation; its axle does not get rusted. R.V 1-164-29. Ether is the ocean of sound waves. Sun, stars, earth, other planets and the entire Nature exist on the basis of indestructible syllable “OM” which is the cosmic Word described as shabad Brahma in the Vedas. There is a mention that human beings should spread this Word OM in the sky/ether which helps in making the earth stable and free from environmental hazards, pollution and other evil effects. Reading and reciting the Word OM as well as litany (Jap Yagna) i.e. OM Khamma Brahma (OM thy name is God ) has been advised by the Vedic rsis.

In many hymns the Sun as a source of energy is mentioned. Rig Veda 1-62-2 advises the scientists to use solar heat energy for conveyance. Solar radiations are invoked to kill the disease producing germs (A.V., 2-32-1 and 2-31-1). Sun is mainly referred in he Vedas as the source of light, knowledge, fire, heat energy, seven colours of light, killer of harmful diseases affecting plants, human beings, animals etc., Sun is a source of knowledge both for the physical scientists and metaphysicists. Sama Veda 121 says that the earth which revolves round itself with a great speed and also around the solar system does all this peacefully without giving any jerks to all animate and inanimate life and thus links physical sciences with metaphysics. It also says that this is not the property of matter bereft of spirit. It is due to the spirit of God pervading both in the Sun and the Earth and also due to gigantic Design of Brahma the only supreme Reality. The human beings should protect the earth revolving very fast like a deer by observing and following the permanent laws of social, moral and physical order ordained by God and described as Rta in the Vedas and other scriptures of the Hindus. Such brave people who observe and follow these Rta help in the preservation of land (earth) (R.V 5-75-11). The science of Time is also linked with the Sun and his daughter Usha devi (R.V 1-92-12). Each dawn reduces life span of the matter in all animate and inanimate life and it reminds the human beings to set a proper timetable from morning to night. Owing to its subtle nature Time should never be wasted. All mundane, material and spiritual duties should be discharged punctually as per the timetable fixed with reference to the dawn (R.V 1-95-8).

In Rig-Veda 1-139-10, various physical sciences are compared to rain water. The progress of mankind is only possible through various physical sciences which are like rain water and extremely useful for the prosperity of entire mankind. Human beings should accept only truth and give up untruth (R.V 1-139-2). Scientists like other learned people should be twice born (Dwi jati). The second birth is by wearing the sacred thread in the presence of Agni deva (holy fire) by taking a pledge to serve the society (R.V 1-140-2). Agni deva is the epithet for holy fire and he is described as “ lord of vows ” in the Vedas. Since these devas and devis are formless beings of light their description as male or female is only symbolic as some hymns did give the impression that holy fire is both Agni deva and devi. Thus it is futile exercise to examine the epithets given to devas/devis by Vedic rsis in regard to sex as he or she. These 33 devas may be accepted as only “ that ”formless beings.

There are a large number of hymns through which the scientists have been advised to do further research and discover various kinds of conveyances, which could move in firmament, earth and the sea (R.V 1-34-1). Scientists in the Vedas are learned persons. They should be provided with house, bright and splendid conveyance and other facilities (R.V 1-140-1). Aeoroplanes, machines, cars, vehicles, ships etc., are very useful for rapid movement and for the development of trade across the globe and for enjoyment of mankind. For discovering such vehicles, the scientists should study the properties of water, fire, and air (R.V 1-3-1, 2). Those who understand the characteristics and various properties of air can discover vehicles for quick movement like airplanes (R.V 1-5-3). For the manufacture of vehicles moving in he air, need for nails, 12 fellies (ores), wheels, three axles, fire and water are mentioned in R.V 1-164-18. For achieving higher speed three sets of wheels are advised (R.V 1-34-1, 9). The term used is “Viman deye neshu” for such fast moving vehicles and for airplanes or any other kind of air craft moving in the middle region, the word “viman“ has been used in a number of hymns. Go in the air and come back with ease like a bird.

[size=+1]Scientific knowledge is needed for enlightened life and good enjoyment (R.V 1-85-7). In Vedic metaphysics the word “ good “ is both material and spiritual and is part of social ethics and morality. Good does not apply to just enjoyment by senses as part of transitory pleasure. Rig -Veda (5-48-2) advises all human beings should make efforts to be in the company of the enlightened savants and obtain the knowledge of all kinds of physical sciences. A scientist should be master of true virtues, noble actions, good temper and both spiritually and materially wealthy. He should be able to go across the path leading to distant places quickly like the mind and electricity with the help of aircraft, space ships etc. He should be self-reliant R.V (1-71-9).[/size]

Ribhus (industrialists and manufacturers) as well as ashvinaus should jointly manufacture aircraft and other vehicles for movement in firmament, earth and sea. They should perform this noble job of manufacture without any pride based on the philosophy of Idd Nan Mmam- nothing for self all for society, which is Vedic concept of enlightened liberalism akin to Aristotle’s enlightened selfishness and mutual harmony (R.V 1-87-2). When wind, water and pieces of earth (steel, iron and other elements and alloys) are used methodically in the vehicles and driven by truthful artisans of righteous conduct and nature, wonderful results are achieved, like mother arranging every thing for a child who is source of a great joy (R.V 1-116-1). In all the hymns relating to physical sciences, inner and outer worlds of the scientists and industrialists are harmonised. Building of ships and aeroplanes are a source of national wealth, comfort and for going across the world (R.V 1-116-3). These vehicles bring prosperity for the people of the country of manufacture and also for the people in other parts of the world. The fast movement to distance places is described in Rig-Veda 1-71-9. Thus by harmonising materialism with spiritualsim, the physical sciences in the Vedas continue to remain part of metaphysics described in Bhagavad Gita as the divine and supreme science.

Though it may look rather strange and unbelievable in the first reading of certain hymns that Vedas mention about the aircraft, ships and space ships but also their achievable speeds. This is in spite of the fact that Vedas no where mention that such fast moving “Rathas” moving in the firmament, surface of the earth and all kinds of water, sea, oceans, rivers etc; ever existed there. Through the transcendental and intuitive research the ancient seers and pathfinders found certain likely maximum speed of ships, aircraft etc. Rig-Veda 1-116-4 mentions a speed, which can enable a ship to cross one main ocean to the other in 3 days and 3 nights. For going around the entire globe by sea and crossing all the oceans, the duration of 11 days and 11 nights is mentioned (R.V 1-34-11). Four boats should be tied to the ships for safety (R.V 1-82-6). Aero planes could fly in the firmament and acquire a speed to go across the world in four hours i.e. thrice a day (R.V 1-43-2). In this hymn if day is translated to 24 hours, then the duration of going across the world by aeroplane is 8 hours. From these hymns it is apparent that ships and aircrafts can acquire still higher speeds if the scientists continue their research in this regard. In R.V 1-116-6 there is a mention of spaceship going in the firmament and other planets. R.V 1-118-12 even suggests that aircrafts should be tri-columned and with three sets of mechanical wheels. Ribhus should manufacture these aircrafts and other vehicles in such a way that sweet waters, food and other requisite articles are kept in these vehicles (R.V 1-118-1).

A few guide lines have been given to Ribhus and Ashvinaus to have a peaceful disposition, humility, self control, truthfulness and be devotees of God, obedient and disciplined (R.V 1-116-7). They should learn about such vehicles from savants who are either Adityas or Rurais. After learning they should aim at making the entire mankind happy and prosperous (R.V. 1-132-5). Those businessmen and traders who use these Rathas and Vaj-gatau (very high-speed vehicles and aircrafts) for spiritual and material profits bring material prosperity to the country.

Science of agriculture is mentioned in Rig-Veda 4-57-5. Canals full of water should have fresh and flowing water useful for he crops and for prosperity (R.V. 1-112-2). Concept of good seeds, regular weeding of the plants, scientific worship and performance of Yajnas with fragrant herbal material for the formation of clouds and consequent rains and other concepts are mentioned as part of Vedic metaphysics and also in the hymns relating to Rta and Brahamanas. A large number of Brahamanas based on Vedic scientific rituals and ceremonies have been separately compiled like Shatapatha, Aiterya, Kausikta and other Brahamanas. Medical science and research is briefly indicated in R.V 1-141-5 and science of sound in R.V 1-144-7. Truthful medical researchers develop spiritual power. In the military science use of lead in the manufacture of weapons and missiles is mentioned (A.V. 1-162-3). The king and other rulers should encourage medical sciences and assist those ashvinaus who help in making the gross bodies of people without physical diseases. The individuals should keep away from those scientists who are ignorant of the properties and characteristics of water, fire, electricity and other subjects relating to physical sciences. Individuals are advised in Rig-Veda 5-74-3 and 3-35-5 to avoid the company of those who do not encourage the scientists and also scientific outlook in society. Rig Veda 1-2-7 refers to the property of rusting the base metals due to the presence of oxygen in water and the pure energy in water is Kinetic energy.

Atharva Veda 2-5-12 refers to two kinds of electricity i.e. positive and negative along with its friendly and destructive use. The electricity is hidden in water and when it comes out, it spreads light and provides energy(R.V 1-16-5). Its use in weapons and telegraphy are also mentioned (R.V. 1-85-5 and 188-1). Because of heat energy in the electricity, there is need to have various precautions against electricity. For electricity the words used in Vedic bhasha (language) are “Viduat Raksha .” Viduat in Sanskrit is electricity and Raksha is protection. Agni (holy fire) also contains energy and electricity (R.V 1-45-5). Electricity protects people and should be used as destructive energy against wicked persons and enemies with the help of weapons, which work on electricity (R.V 1-86-9). A scientist who knows the nature of Time and all the properties and characteristics of electricity can accomplish his/her work very fast (R.V 1-95-8). Seven flames of fire are mentiond in Mundaka Upanishad (1-2-4). Without fire and air no substance in the material world can be sustained ( R.V 1-26-1). Ashvinaus are advised to study all the proprties of water, air and fire.

The ashvinaus who know veterinary science comprehensively should be honoured (R.V 6-53-9). Owing to their research and knowledge, the animals can be well fed and they grow well. The cattle wealth thus increases (R.V 6-5-10). In the science of Toxicology the use of drugs which convert poison into ambrasia and removes the effect of poison in the human body, is also described with some details in Mandala 1 and Suktam 191 of Rig-Veda.

A few hymns in Atharva Veda (1-11-1 to 7) are devoted to childbirth like, foetus is surrounded by natural elements that move the child in the womb and prepare the woman for giving birth. A few more scientific guidelines are given in this connection. Rig Veda 1-85-2, 1-12-1, 2, 1-22-1 to 4 and many other hymns both in Atharva and Rig Vedas are devoted to description of various kinds of physical diseases in the gross body and their cure particularly bile, phlegm, cough, jaundice, head ache etc., The Vedic system of treatment of physical diseases popularly known in India as “Ayur Veda ” has its origin in these scriptures.

The study of six schools of Indian philosophy based on Vedic metaphysics, reveals that atoms and their immense hidden power was known to ancient rsis and munnies and atomis theory in some details is mentioned in Nyaya Vaisheshika darshana. There are countless and infinite number of atoms each with their own “visesa,“ or particular qualities. Due to these visesa characteristics of the atoms even the movement of needle towards magnet occurs. It is due to combination of atoms with their particular qualities that phenomenon like mass, weight, fluidity, viscosity etc., occur in various bhutas and maha bhutas containing 750 elements and five main elements i.e. air, fire, earth, water and ether. Physical scientists have found so far more than 130 elements both natural and man made. If research continues on the philosophy of enlightened liberalism and with the sole aim of human welfare, more and more elements will be discovered. There is every likely hood that some more elements are there in the earth, below the oceans and also in other planets. In the Vedic metaphysics atoms are described as “energy balls” as the spirit of God providing these atoms specific properties, prevails in them in their inner most part “shuniya” or void which is not gross. Only those scientists who firmly believe in the harmony of spirit and matter will finally prove in the laboratory more of the Vedic truths.

Rig -Veda lays great emphasis on the study of mathematics and particularly Algebra “Rekha-di ganit vidya vigyaya” (R.V. 1-95-1). Ten formed the basis of enumeration. Visnu Purana partly based on Vedas refer to the concept of time up to 3.1104 X 10 raised to the power 12. By decoding astronomical concepts like zero sign, decimal place, various values of digits, use of minus sign and letters to denote unknown quantities in algebra, various distances between earth and Sun, earth and moon, duration of each Kalpa (one cosmic cycle of four Yugas or celestial periods) of about 4.3 million years have been mentioned. Bhagavad Gita even refers to 2000 maha yugas i.e. equal to 4.3 X 2000 million years (B.G. 8- 17 to 19). Buddha in his early education reported to have named 10 raised to the power 50 (Discovery of India-p.97, 98). Division of time was up to … of a second and smallest linear measures approximately 1.37 X 10 raised to the power (-) 7 inches. Yajur Veda numbers up to trillion, which Bhagavad Gita also mentions. Arya Bhatta (b. 476 AD) who was an eminent astronomer, metaphysicist and scientist worked “ pi “ value up to 3.1416 against 3.1415926.

But more than science Vedas give greater emphasis to the development of scientific temper, which all members of society should acquire. In the Vedic metaphysics there is no love for magic, miracles, curses of the agitated and angry rsis, saints and sages, inauspicious or auspicious day, month, year or time for laying foundation stone of a project, its inauguration, or specific auspicious time for taking any oath required under the Constitution of any state by the President, Prime Minister or other public servant and any other social or family functions like marriage etc. The drift from Vedic metaphysics can be seen in the two major mythological epics (Itahasa) Ramayana and Mahabharta, in the religious fairy tales in Puranas, Tantras and even Kalidasa’s most famous mythological literary drama “Shakuntala”. The whole drama cum story has been built on the curse of an angry and highly agitated rsi for no major reason. Vedas are also against sorcery and use of tantrik knowledge in the cure of diseases by yatudhani, kimidins and other sorcerers and magicians. While tantriks philosophy relating to awakening of kunadalini power (the welfare of mankind is mentioned, its misuse is part of non divine activity and hence sinful. Rig Veda 10-87-3 and 2-14-3 and many other hymns describe the professions and activities of sorcerers, magicians, all those who spread mythology for vested interests and other non scientific blind faith as the followers of non divine Varna and they are described as avarnas and vritras. Unfortunately owing to distortion of spiritual knowledge contained in Vedas for certain vested interests of gurus, babas, tantriks, godmen and priests etc., many of the non divine activities mentioned there in are no longer considered as evil and sinful by many Hindus.

The study of Artha Shastra of Kautilya - the philosopher Prime Minister of the first Indian emperor Chandra Gupta Maurya, would reveal that to protect the emperor from any likely revolution from the masses, he deliberately devised a very large number superstitions and also spread the same to keep the people occupied. Thus Kautilya saved the emperor from any revolt from the hostile section of the people. The emperor was once an ordinary village boy from a poor family who was trained by Kautilya in administrative, military, political and other matters so that he would take over as the future king of Patliputra (Bihar). Kautilya was keen from a very young age to replace the corrupt Nanda dynasty rulers. Most of the superstitions then created about 2300 years ago, along with many others are still continuing in one or the other sections of Hindus leading to perpetuation of blind faith and unscientific outlook. The various effects of these superstitions and unscientific outlook are now commonly found amongst many Hindus. Amongst the rich and materially prosperous Hindus, proxy and ostentatious worship is very common to gain social recognition.

Through out India the daughters-in-law are blamed if a number of female children are born amongst many Hindu families and sometimes even the husbands also blame their wives for begetting number of female children. This is in spite of the fact that Vedas say differently. [size=+1]There is a clear mention that the sex of the child is dependent on the seed, which is a male aspect and not dependent on mother which is Prakrti aspect, like the mother earth.[/size] The scientists have now proved this Vedic truth in the laboratory. In spite of the Vedic truth and its scientific proof in the laboratory, many Hindus are not convinced and have not accepted the truth gracefully. The social evil of dowry and wide spread dowry deaths in many parts of India is hanging like a Sword of Damocles over their heads and not allowing them to accept the scientific truths. At present over 20 millions girls are missing in India mostly in Tamil Nadu, Haryana, Panjab, Rajasthan and other states. This unscientific outlook is perpetuating girl infanticide, dowry deaths, devdasi system but also obnoxious Sati evil. It is a socially forced suicide by many harassed widows of young age to avoid their remarriage and payment of higher amount of dowry. Hindu godmen, gurus, priests, swamis and babas have done nothing for ages to arrest this and other social evils not supported by Vedas and modern science. It is apparent for their vested interests they are not keen to spread scientific outlook and Vedic knowledge amongst Hindus. However, the Vedic science helps in distinguishing between truth and falsehood and dispels the darkness of ignorance.

Vedas advise the scientists to acquire complete knowledge of ten pranas (vital breaths), soul and spirit along with ten physical sciences. Prana and Apana - inhalation and exhalation process is a complete science in Vedas for attaining physical and spiritual strength and also for destroying and eradicating various diseases of the mind and body. Patanjali’s Yog Shastra to a certain extent is based on the science of vital breaths of ten kinds of pranas in the human body. Many individuals are now trying to use this science as a lucrative profession bereft of its spiritual aspect of the welfare of mankind and also the metaphysics contained in the Vedas and Upanishads.

Rig Veda 6-75-2, refers to Dhanav Vidya pertaining to bow and arrows, which are symbols of all weapons and missiles. Many savants refer to this part of Rig-Veda as Dhanur Veda. The term dhanvana is used for bow, weapon and missiles. All these weapons are to be used if absolutely necessary and not for gaining unjust victory over the enemy with the idea of gaining territory. These weapons should be used when all other peaceful and righteous methods have failed and non-divine persons create obstructions in the spread of Vedic knowledge and for protecting those persons who follow ChatvarVarna Ashram system of four divine professions in the society

For human beings physical strength and vigour, a kind of herbal Soma juice has been prescribed. It is a herbal sweet juice extracted from Soma plant and is red in colour. For vigour it should be taken with milk or curd. Being slightly intoxicant, its use during mental depression is mentioned in many hymns. With the passage of time and decline of Vedic knowledge, particularly its metaphysics contained in the Upanishads, Soma drink got a distorted meaning as a highly concentrated alcoholic drink. Now hardly any swami, guru, priest or any other person amongst Hindus knows from which herb or plant this juice was extracted. However, Vedas clearly make a distinction between Soma drink and Asura. While Soma ras is meant to be used by the followers of four divine varnas both men and women, Asura being a hard and concentrated alcoholic drink is meant for the vritras, avarnas, yatudhani and other followers of non divine activities like bribe takers, speculators, smugglers and evil minded persons.

For a better appreciation of Vedic science, a few terms used in he original Vedic bhasha (language) as contained in the mantras/riks are mentioned. Viman diye neshu for vehicles like aircrafts (RV 1-34-1, 9 and 1-85-7). Vaj gatau- very high-speed vehicles in the air (R.V 6-60-12). Rekha di ganit vidys vigyaya- the science of Algebra (R.V 1-19-1). Surya Vidyau tau- knowledge of the Sun and electricity. Indr-agani- power, energy and electricity (R.V 6-60-12, 13 ), krishna garbha- knower of Algebra (R.V 6-75-2 ). Vidyamadi bha vidyut vidyante yashate- in which electric telegraph wires have been arranged (R.V 1-88-1). Many other terms and words relating to physical sciences can be found in these hymns like kanu, anu, bhutas, maha bhutas, tatva, maha tatva etc., The other terms have been used like Ratha for vehicles moving in the firmament and middle region, on the surface of the earth and over the water, ashvinau for scientists, anu and kanu for gross and subtle atoms, tan matras for sub atomic particles sponda for sound etc. Few other words are amritasya nidhi - ambrosia (R.V. 1-186-3), Brahamand pinda i.e macrocasm and microcasm. In Yajur Veda 18-24 and 25 many terms relating to addition, subtraction, division, square, cube, square root, and cube root have been used. Yajur Veda 18-22 and R.V. 6-22-2 also refer to certain other terms of the physical sciences.

The Vedic seers and sages have made it clear through their metaphysics that physical sciences are not about the “ real ” world but pertain to the phenomenal world of Maya- the cosmic illusion as phantasmagoria. Once a person understands this distinction between the real and phenomenal worlds, the physical sciences merge with the supreme science described in Bhagavad Gita as the science of soul and by Vedic metaphysicists as Parmartha. Incidentally the phenomenal world is not an unreal world as mentioned by Sankracharya and for this reason he has preferred to use the word delusion and not illusion. It is certainly not a mirage. This delusion stay during the stage of ignorance that includes only material and intellectual knowledge bereft of spiritual and divine knowledge. The Vedic knowledge is the harmony of these three kinds of knowledge i.e. jnan, vijnan and ajnan of Bhagavad Gita and Brahma vidya, Adhyatmic vidya and Bhautic vidya of Vedas. In the absence of these three kinds of knowledge, the physical scientists in the phenomenal world are hemmed in their assumptions and cannot survey an intellectual world of all and diverse possibilities. Only a spiritual cum material scientist or a Vedic ashvinau can move from temporal to an eternal perspective. It is for this reason that the ancient path finders and lovers of parmartha who discovered through their transcendental knowledge the laws of physical sciences and also military science did not develop any destructive weapons and had complete faith in the power of divine knowledge and considered the entire mankind as part of a global family (Vishva kutumbkam or Vasudhaiva kutumbkam ) and all human beings as spiritual brothers and sisters.

Vedas also recognise that our outward looking mind (etani), has its inherent limitations and can not conceive how the gross matter, elements, atoms, particles, waves etc., get their different kinds of properties and characteristics. No such limitations would exist to the inwards looking mind (manas) in the study and understanding of physical sciences as part of metaphysics. For every thing there is a cause in this phenomenal world and this cause is before any effect. Every change precedes the previous change and this phenomenon is common in all kinds of flux in Prakrti --the divine Nature. Both Bhagavad Gita and Vedas clearly bring out that to conceive the cause of first change is not easy for the uncontrolled human senses and turbulent outwards looking mind. To know the cause of first change, the Vedic seers used their divine instruments of the vast inner world within their gross bodies. They communicated with these divine instruments like Buddhi (Intellect), spirit (Kundalini as the coiled energy and part of Jiva), human manifested soul (Jivatma), through metaphysical inquiries in the form of dialectics and also perhaps exchanged their findings with each other.

Patanjali in his Yoga Shastra has described in some details the methods and techniques to communicate with your divine instruments. There is a mention in Yoga Shastra that by contemplating continuously on the Sun, one comes to know about the entire universe, its functions and even those secrets that human senses cannot conceive. According to Vedic metaphysics if we go on contemplating “Why these laws of God, laws of gravity of the earth and Sun, laws of electricity, water, fire, Time and Space; some answers will start emerging through your divine instruments. For this contemplation with dedication and sincerity, mediation, concentration and other siddhis have been explained in the six Indian schools of philosophy. By this dialectical method, one can arrive at the cause of first change and other permanent truths. Buddha applied some such technique and found independently the cause of Flux in Prakrti and did not feel the need to know more about God and soul. Prakrti is an adequate cause for all further knowledge needed by the human beings. Kapila Rsi of Sankhya darshana found this first cause in Adrista - the unseen cosmic power and based his metaphysics without invoking God. Advait Vedantists had found the first cause in the Supreme Reality and named the nameless as Brahma who is manifested in Brahamand - the ever-expanding universe. Vedic rsis also named Him Vishnu - the one who pervades everywhere in this Viswa (Universe).

While in the various cults, organised sub-religions and panths, having roots in Vedas, constituting the present Hindu Dharma, these epithets like Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, Adrista, Prakrti, etc., may have different meanings but in Upanishads and metaphysics these tend to move towards Unity and are one and the same spiritual and divine concepts. This Unity in diversity is the main Vedic metaphysical science. Once a person comes to know the first cause with the help of his divine instruments, all other phenomena in this world of Vedic Maya like Flux, atoms of different kinds, their properties, knowledge of birth and death, Sristi and Paralaya - Creation and Dissolution of the universe etc., become clear to such individuals. Vedic physical sciences thus cannot be isolated from metaphysics and as soon as these are isolated, the destructive properties of matter over take by suppressing the nobler qualities meant for the welfare of the entire mankind and other animate and inanimate life. In the Vedas, it is in this background that discovery and manufacture of air crafts, ships, vehicles moving on the surface of the earth are mentioned for material and spiritual prosperity of all human beings. In the modern physical sciences there is growing tendency to isolate the inventions and discoveries from metaphysics. The excessive use of air conditioners by rich individuals, production of Basmati rice for commercial purposes during summer by using much needed drinking water (it requires drinking water during summer period equivalent to the need of about 200 persons to get one kilogram of Basmati quality rice in Panjab and Haryana and many other scientific discoveries have created miseries for the poor, apart from pollution of all kind in the atmosphere as well as environmental hazards. The modern scientists are doing research without getting them selves fully integrated with Nature and grossly ignore the Vedic noble philosophy of Idd Nan Mmam- nothing for themselves all for society. Many individuals now feel insecure as the scientists with the help of manufacturers have produced atom bombs, hydrogen bombs and other destructive weapons which could destroy the human life on this globe and modern economics and commerce which are more like Vedic anartha have created gross imbalance of all kinds of excesses in richness, poverty, life style, distortion in spiritual knowledge, human exploitation, etc.

Shakespeare in his famous drama Julius Ceaser had written, “… the fault of dear Brutus lies not in our stars, but in our selves.” Due to lack of divine knowledge, blind faith and unscientific outlook, pursuit of material knowledge based on sense perception, many persons go on accumulating material objects to satisfy their uncontrolled senses, false ego and also as a part of their vulgar consumerism. When they do not find satisfaction in this aimless negativity of blind pursuit of matter, money and status, they run after astrologers, palmists, tantriks and finally go to the clutches of professional godmen, babas, gurus and swamis, who are very often ignorant of Vedic knowledge. Some of them run to temples at odd places to seek blessings of mythological gods and goddesses for getting peace of mind, cure of their physical and mental diseases and for getting children particularly sons. Failing to get their desires and wishes fulfilled they even go to fake dealers of hope dwelling in magic, miracles, sorcery and many other non-divine activities. Thus there is no link between the material and intellectual knowledge bereft of spirit and scientific outlook. Many scientists amongst Hindus do not have any scientific outlook. In India there are hundreds of physical scientists, biologists, engineers, medical practitioners and others who will be found running after babas, swamis and godmen. None of them can convincingly say against girl infanticide, production of Basmati rice by depriving the scarce drinking water to the poor, misuse of electricity by the rich, bride burning, bribe taking and other corrupt activities, various other social evils including exploitation of Nature and the earth. Hardly any Hindu scientist runs after the acquisition of supreme knowledge contained in he Vedas to which they owe allegiance as their supreme scriptures. They prefer non-Vedic knowledge through most of the fake gurus and godmen and get bigoted, self-virtuous, fanatical and some times even cruel.

Vedas advise the scientists to continue doing their research with scientific outlook and find out all possible laws of physical sciences, properties of all gross and even subtle atoms like ether. They should keep in mind that these properties and characteristics to all elements and their atoms are given by the spirit living in the substratum Shuniya - the inner most vacuum not visible to material instruments. Scientists cannot give any property to these atoms but can find out those properties for future discoveries and inventions for the welfare of entire mankind. According to Vedic metaphysics and also Patanjali’s Yog Shastra, these properties of atoms are highly predictable for the dedicated yogis, seers and scientists who are keen to bring prosperity for the mankind. For ages the utility of stars was limited to children’s fairy tales mostly in poems like “twinkle, twinkle, little star.....” and now scientists have found that all elements that the earth has and which also form our gross bodies, were manufactured deep in the cores of the stars through the process of trans nuclear fusion and ejected through stellar explosions. Even this scientific fact should make us careful not to overuse the various elements on this earth. The supreme Mother Prakrti goes on making elements and other food articles for us which are enough for human needs and certainly not enough for our greed.

This law of Nature was discovered by Gandhi ji as part of his philosophy. Based on this law of Nature, Gandhi ji propounded his ethical theory of need-based living and also to go on reducing your needs so that enough is available to others for their living. Thus in any society where individuals do not have enough for their minimum need based living, that society is largely a sinful society as some individual would be excessively using the Nature’s bounties based on greed based living. Only a person of scientific outlook and vision can think and propagate such noble concepts. In case of Gandhi ji, he not only made this concept as part of his philosophy but also followed the same during his life time. This metaphysical theory was earlier promulgated in the Vedas as part of their concept of moderation, by Greek philosophers as Golden Mean, by Buddha as Middle Path and in Bhagavad Gita as avoidance of all excesses. Even the ancient Chinese lover of wisdom Lao Tse had said, “He who possesses moderation is lasting and enduring. Too much always is a curse most of all in wealth.”

The renowned English scientist of 17th century, Sir Isaac Newton in spite of his so many discoveries relating to light, gravitation, laws of motion, certain mathematical laws etc., and also finding matter as inert, was still having a feeling that some thing was missing in his discoveries. He wrote in the Optick p.344, “ … does it not appear that there is a supreme Being, incorporeal, living, intelligent, omnipresent who in infinite space sees the things themselves intimately and thoroughly, perceives them and comprehends them wholly by their immediate presence to Himself.” Newton’s writings would thus appear more like Vedic metaphysics. Einstein found what Newton was having a feeling of some thing missing, in the 20th century. The findings of matter being inert by the 17th and 18th centuries scientists in their classical mechanics was modified by the 20th century celestial mechanics of Einstein and other particle physicists. Even these scientists have a feeling that there is some thing beyond sub-atomic particles in the atoms that make these tiny invisible balls to move at a great speed and that too without any rest. Thus scientists with scientific outlook and attitude produce highly constructive and positive results. Unfortunately many Hindu scientists who consider Vedas as their supreme scriptures, are found loaded with amulets given by tantriks, swamis and also by temple priests either directly or through their parents and do not have a scientific courage to take them out for fear of some unknown calamity and misery. The most unscientific attitude amongst many Hindus including some scientists is that relating to non-vegetarian food particularly beefs, pork, etc. If poor persons take this kind of food, they are looked down upon and even ostracised but if rich persons of the developed nations like United States of America, European countries etc., they are sought after and eating and living in their company is great achievement and matter of pride. Hundreds of Hindus can be seen taking beefs, pork and other kind of non-vegetarian food in U.S.A. and other countries and also in India in the company of foreigners and their social and official parties, luncheons etc. Many of them would not like to admit this owing to their unscientific outlook and attitude towards food.

Spreading blind faith and hypocrisy is now becoming a major money earning profession through television, cinema and commercial exploitation of religious beliefs. The more miracles, magic, mythology and blind faith are shown in the Indian movies or television about Hindu gods / goddesses and their cosmic powers, the more popular these serials, soap operas and movies become and fetch enormous money to their producers and financiers. Thus message is being conveyed that God’s main role is to create magic and miracles beyond any scientific explanation. Thus a large section of Hindus are being brain washed by gurus, godmen, swamis and even economic exploiters of the Indian movies, producers of television serials and many others. Taking advantage of this highly confused religious atmosphere at present, many cults, tantriks and even priests periodically predict for the last about five decades the total destruction and dissolution of the entire universe. During 1962, many swamis and cults predicted the dissolution - Pralaya and very large number of Hindus including highly learned individuals did not sleep inside their houses and many remained awake through out the night. A number of special prayers, Pooja and Yajnas were performed to protect the mankind. Even in India, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs and followers of other religions excluding Hindus did not take this prediction seriously. This blind faith not covered by the Vedic metaphysics made even many swamis, priests and others still bolder to claim that the entire mankind was saved owing to their special Pooja, dedicated prayers and number of Yajnas performed. Many cults even openly propagate that individuals who are their followers will escape this cosmic Destruction Pralaya and will be the originators of next celestial Cycle of mankind and also their pathfinders.

It is because of this blind faith and extremely unscientific attitude that in 1995 thousands of Hindus including scientists, medical practitioners, engineers and other learned persons in India and abroad, ran to temples where idols of lord Ganesa were installed. The purpose was to feed milk to the idols, icons, statues and even pictures of lord Ganesa. All kinds of claims were made that the idols accepted milk from certain individuals and refused from others. This all started when some individuals with vested interest to make a lot of quick money spread the rumour after experimenting the effect of surface tension and sucking of small quantity of milk with a spoon by any idol. Lord Ganesa name was used to exploit commercially the love for miracles and blind faith of Hindus. Later some Hindus tried the same with the idols of other gods and goddesses. Their idols also accepted small or large quantities of milk. Many temples and their custodians made a lot of money and made some economic exploiters and bribe takers believe that they are the true and loving children of God as idols accepted milk from them. In Delhi alone owing to this man made phenomenon a large number of infants, children of the poor people and some physically sick person could not get milk as the price of even adulterated milk sky rocketed. On the other side the milk flowed like a small stream originating from the idols and going finally to the drains. Majority of the Hindus called it a divine miracle, a few attributed it to the principle of surface tension in Physics and very limited number of Hindus described it as a joking deception.

[v]Rig-Veda 1-3-4 clearly says that people with scientific outlook do not resort to such practices and they are the real destroyers of diseases and sufferings of others. Many Hindus who ran to temples to feed precious milk to the idols of mythological gods / goddesses were not aware that their most sacred scriptures Rig-Veda 1-2-4 aims at bringing out scientific temper in them. The stones, bronze and clay statues and idols of mythological gods have no role in Creation, Preservation and Dissolution of the earth. This hymn of Rig-Veda tells us that it is the Sun which supports the earth and its gravitational force makes it firm. Again Rig-Veda 1-2-5 further makes it clear that it is the formless and ineffable Brahma who Himself is the upholder of Sun. Thus any prediction by the cults and their leaders or other members, swamis and tantriks about the dissolution or Pralaya is more to create fear psychosis amongst Hindus which would make them run to temples, gurus and other religious leaders of hope. To a great extent owing to blind faith, unscientific outlook and ostentatious worship of God, the present organised Hindu religion has considerably deviated from the Vedic metaphysics.[/v]

If the Vedas mention that stars are the bounties of God for the human beings and other animate life, it was for the scientists to prove in laboratory about their utility for our existence. It has now been proved by physical sciences that almost all the planets (Greek word meaning wanderers) are moving with high speed but always at safe distance from the Sun to avoid being burnt or frozen to death. While physical sciences can only find out actual distances between them and the Sun, their speed, maximum and minimum temperature or whether these planets are suitable or not for the human beings to live there, but only metaphysicists can explain why this safe distances from the Sun? Metaphysics can even tell why these planet like the earth moving all the time with a very high speed round itself and also the Sun and still not giving jerks to animate and inanimate life. Science of astrology (if at all it is a science), astronomy, Time and Space, Physics etc., may be able to predict accurately collision of Comet Shoe maker “Levy” with Jupiter or a particular day, time accurate to the last second and place for lunar and solar eclipses, but metaphysics can only explain the noble Design of God in maintaining balance and equilibrium in the entire cosmos. According to Vedas even the earth quakes, hurricanes, avalanches, storms, floods etc.; are the grace of God, necessary for the maintenance of equilibrium. Vedas ordain “O, man assist your supreme Father Brahma and supreme mother Prakrti in this wondrous and grand Design.” It is rather unfortunate that instead of assisting God, many individuals tend to disturb His grand Design by using the earth as quarry, atmosphere as a huge porous bin for absorbing all types of poisonous, lethal and toxic gases created due to extremely selfish activities of theirs. Even the activities of theirs relating to sound waves are now effecting the ether. All this is happening as science is fast divorcing itself from metaphysics and is getting more associated with economics and commercial activities by losing its higher status. Commerce to day boasts of engaging thousands of scientists and engineers and working for it rather than for science itself.

By isolating from metaphysics and association with commerce in the subordinate position, the discoveries of science are leading to more and more social tension, economic disparities, environmental hazards and distortion in the spiritual and divine knowledge. Though eminent scientists like Einstein and Hoffman believed that the wondrous Creation could not be explained to “chance” and that there was some spirit behind it, yet economics and commercial outlook of man is forcing many modern scientists to ignore their findings that were akin to Vedic metaphysics. Einstein even said that every matter in the universe is conglomeration of sound waves or wavicles in the mass sea of waves i.e., the entire universe. This primal energy is bottled up in the form of velocity of light - Bubble in the calm and homogeneous state in the procreation stage. That bubble was caused by some cosmic energy that caused movement and whirling leading to “sound.” This scientific statement of Einstein appears more like Vedic metaphysics that refers to cosmic energy as the sacred syllable O.M or A.U.M. This cosmic word is mentioned as shabad Brahma in the Vedas and the Word in the Bible. It is shabad Brahma, which led to primordial waves in the form of sound (sponda) and these waves expanded and the gross cosmos along with this universe and other worlds where six more communities of men live, also emerged. These six communities of men consist of devas, angels, gandharvas, pitries, karma devas etc. Thus it is due to shabad Brahma that subtle Prakrti and gross Universe were created. All the worlds below Brahma lok, which is the abode of God, are subject to appearance and disappearance. Bhagavad Gita explains these concepts in chapter 8 verses 16 and 17 and also in chapter 9 verses 10.

The Vedic metaphysics and also some Upanishads refer to the relative existence of the universe and the continuous cosmic dance at the sub atomic level. The quantum physics and celestial mechanics in the modern science have proved the same in the laboratory. The vacuum in the innermost part of the atom, sub-atomic particles, quarks etc., is the reservoir of energy and is the cause of Flux in the Nature. If Upanishads refer to the never ending cycle of creation and dissolution of the universe, as a manifestation of the ultimate reality, quantum physics refer to single unified field which existed within nano second of the Big Bang as a glimpse of the ultimate reality.

Vedas and also some of the Upanishads, particularly Taittriya Upanishad explain emotional, psychological, physical and other scientific phenomenon pertaining to human sense perception like hot, cold, pain and pleasure, colour, touch and other to five coverings or sheaths in the human body. Vedic term for sheath is Kosha. In the inner most covering lives the immortal self or the manifested soul described as Jivatma. This innermost sheath is the subtlest of the subtle Kosha. The other four sheaths are moving towards subtle to finer and the grosser sheaths. The outer most sheath is Annomaye Kosha and it is the food covering and consists of only gross elements. It is our outer body, which is dependent on our intake of food and perishes due to old age, sickness or fatal accident. The other three sheaths are pertaining to mind, vital breath and intellect. These three Koshas consist of partly gross to finer and subtle atoms and particles. Only human beings have five Kosha and animals have four Kosha as they do not have the immortal soul like human beings. The numbers of sheaths become still less in the case of ants, plants, trees etc. An aerobic bacterium has only one sheath i.e. food covering only. The modern science of psychology has almost come to the conclusion that consciousness is only in the human beings without naming it as soul. However, Vedas clearly mention the manifested soul is the cause of consciousness in the human being and dwells in the body in the 5th inner most Kosha.

To develop scientific outlook, Vedic rsis, munnies and metaphysicists developed certain scientific techniques. Through the word Swaha at the end of many riks, mantras and hymns and some times in between also, they ensured that students and common men having belief in the Vedic metaphysics understood and appreciated the correct meaning, significance and spirit of the those hymns. They also applied these meanings in their day to day conduct and behaviour towards other individuals, animals, plants etc;. and even inanimate life. The word Swaha is a confirmation and promise to “deva of vows “ in the Vedas i.e. Agni deva. Many hymns also end with the words Idd Nan Mmam, which literally means nothing for self. Metaphysically it is the Vedic enlightened liberalism i.e. nothing for self all for society. Through the philosophy of Idd Nan Mmam the individuals are advised to refrain from selfish activities and make all dedicated efforts to form an ideal society. Each individual has to act and even pray to God for the welfare of others and thus his / her own welfare is also achieved. This concept is also akin to Greek philosophers’ enlightened selfishness.

While Vedic God is formless and ineffable, Prakrti has a large number of attributes. For easy understanding of these attributes of divine Nature who is our supreme Mother, Vedic metaphysicists divided these attributes into 33 sets. For each set of attributes of Prakrti, they symbolically made each deva / devi - formless beings of light as in-charge. This scientific division helps even a common man to know all the attributes of Prakrti. Some of these “shining ones” are Prithvi devi - the mother earth with attribute of selfless service, Usha devi - dawn, representing discipline, beginning of the day and knowledge pertaining to science of time, Agni deva - holy fire which represents the attribute of purity, heat energy, electricity in Prakrti. Surya deva - the Sun incharge of providing light, food, energy of various kinds etc. In Rig -Veda Indra deva is an important being of light who represents power, destroys followers of non divine professions, bribe takers, adulterators of food, medicines and other evil minded persons. He represents power and strength of Prakrti. Even his name is derived scientifically from two words “Indha and Ra.” Indha is fuel and Ra is transforming energy, a kind of cosmic fire. Indhra or Indra is thus power, energy and strength which provides constant fuel in the Nature and destroys those who creates obstructions in his noble activities. Since Atharva Rsis were worshippers of holy fire, in Athava Veda, Agni deva incharge of holy fire and its attributes became the most important deva. He was also made lord of vows. Thus all promises of good conduct, behaviour, protection and care of wife and children, following the path of enlightened liberalism, maintaining the air, water and atmosphere free from pollution, etc., are made before the holy fire. In this manner the Vedic metaphysicists provided divinity to Prakrti and described her as the supreme Mother so that human beings refrain from exploiting her bounties beyond their actual needs. This scientific method also helped in the understanding of all the attributes of Prakrti.

Now majority of Hindus have forgotten that divine Nature is their supreme mother and also the significance of these 33 formless beings of light. Most of them need the blessings of gurus, priests and swamis to continue their activities of excessive exploitation of the mother earth, pollution of the atmosphere, air, water and even the society and are extremely pleased with those individuals who can distort the Vedic spiritual and divine knowledge to suit their blind pursuit of money and vulgar consumerism. In the Vedas the veneration and even worship of these 33 devas was more to develop the scientific outlook in the society and was not meant for any ritualistic or blind worship for ostentation or social recognition. Even Vedic cosmic laws of social moral and physical order described there in as RTA, which can be known and understood from the functioning of Nature, are meant to develop scientific and healthy social outlook amongst the entire mankind, so that all human beings on this earth could live in harmony with Nature, society, other animate and inanimate life and start moving towards perfection. However, one clear message emerges from the study of Vedic metaphysics that that any scientific discovery or invention which contradicts the laws of Nature or Vedic Rta and social and moral righteousness or Vedic Dharma, should be re-examined for the material and spiritual welfare of mankind.
/Source

If u understand this, then u wont have any problem acknowledging that even our ancients had both scientific approach and spirituality.

karnivore said:
Sorry, took me a while to post. Sunday turned out to be unusually hectic and so did Monday. Anyway, here goes.
U dont need to say any of this. :)
 

legolas

Padawan
If homeopathy works n is found to be effective, then why is the only option left is to start doubting them, simply becoz they violate the laws of chemistry?? Why can't we be skeptical towards the prevailing "theories and 'limited' laws" since science is known to be changing, modifying itself to attain perfection??
@mediator, 1) if cyanide is diluted a million times, will it get stronger??
Also, spirituality and science are different topics, each having its own place. So don't tell if science cannot explain spirituality and vice versa.
2) if homeopathy is based on spiritual claims and vital energy which you and I understand to be hypothetical enough for science to not validate the claims, then why call "homeopathy" as "science"?. call it a spiritual mojo or whatever.. when it doesn't fall into the premises and bounded rules necessary for the "even not idealistic or perfect" science, when why claim so?
Here, you have to understand that there are many theories that exist in science which are only concepts. But, they are not put into practice or for ex: say, published on text books. Its research and without imagination, and thinking and understanding the limitations, you and I wouldn't be communicating in the way we do. Science doesn't claim it to be ultimate. But, it doesn't put into practice while its just a concept.
Like I said before, I had a tough cough for 4 months and ,had it in winter season a few yrs ago too, that was literally cracking me apart.
why did homeopathy treat a cough for 4 months (tough cough i understand the term, still even if its penumonia, it doesnt take 4 months).
what makes you sure that the tough cough you had for 4 months is not a result of taking medicine from homeopathy an year back or so?
(assuming you did take homeopathy that time, just for the sake of argument).
I really didn't know what medicine the doctor gave me. But since it was highly effective from the day 1, it made me eager to know more about it. I don't think there exists any exploitation or if I was being "fleeced for money"!!
the problem is, the doctor himself doesn't know why he gave you that particular medicine! :D
On one hand we have cases of thoroughly tested modern medicines and yet failing. On the other hand successful homeopathy, but not scientifically explained.
Now this is being so wanting to prove homeopathy is the best. while they claim to cure only certain diseases.
We can't even compare the number of patients going for "modern medicine" and getting cured (small pox vaccination, measles vaccination, and tons and tons of modern medicine vaccination has eradicated those diseases.. they alone are enough for outwitting the number of cases you claim to have cured from homeopathy). so, don't even compare these two. its just being desperate.

There is a very big distinction between Scientific theories expressed out of imagination (even call if fiction) and with a ray of hope in the truth in it, studies are performed. But, till it is verified to pin point accuracy, its not declared as a proven theory, its just another concept which is subjected to criticism, ridiculing and all sorts of scientific gobbledygook. Homeopathy if it claims to be science, is just another unproven concept. full stop.
 

kalpik

In Pursuit of "Happyness"
^^ And you sir, most definitely win the prize for the longest post on this forum, EVER! :D

Ah.. bad timing.. it was meant for Mediator :p
 

mediator

Technomancer
legolas said:
2) if homeopathy is based on spiritual claims and vital energy which you and I understand to be hypothetical enough for science to not validate the claims, then why call "homeopathy" as "science"?. call it a spiritual mojo or whatever.. when it doesn't fall into the premises and bounded rules necessary for the "even not idealistic or perfect" science, when why claim so?
Here, you have to understand that there are many theories that exist in science which are only concepts. But, they are not put into practice or for ex: say, published on text books. Its research and without imagination, and thinking and understanding the limitations, you and I wouldn't be communicating in the way we do. Science doesn't claim it to be ultimate. But, it doesn't put into practice while its just a concept.
Ah I don't think I read bt Big Bang theory on the net, magazine or any newspaper. Textbook? Ah yes!! I think u r not sure of what u just said!!

legolas said:
why did homeopathy treat a cough for 4 months (tough cough i understand the term, still even if its penumonia, it doesnt take 4 months).
what makes you sure that the tough cough you had for 4 months is not a result of taking medicine from homeopathy an year back or so?
(assuming you did take homeopathy that time, just for the sake of argument).
Seems u don't understand plain English! Where did I say that it took 4 months to cure? :D You really are something!!

legolas said:
the problem is, the doctor himself doesn't know why he gave you that particular medicine!
And now I think u never ever read any of the links!! Is English really that hard??

legolas said:
Now this is being so wanting to prove homeopathy is the best. while they claim to cure only certain diseases.
We can't even compare the number of patients going for "modern medicine" and getting cured (small pox vaccination, measles vaccination, and tons and tons of modern medicine vaccination has eradicated those diseases.. they alone are enough for outwitting the number of cases you claim to have cured from homeopathy). so, don't even compare these two. its just being desperate.
YEs, everyone can see who's being desperate. It seems u have done nuthing in this discussion save criticising hemoepathy in a typical manner n makin me repeat again n again!

legolas said:
^ ^ ha ha ha
ha ha ha
ha ha ha
@mediator, no offense, but how old are you?
Judging by ur chldish posts, and the quality of terms like "fart" u were bringing again n again in between randomly, I think I shud have been asking that question. But sorry for being that polite!!:)
 

karnivore

in your face..
Homeopathy is PLACEBO, PLACEBO, PLACEBO, PLACEBO, PLACEBO.
Thats how science explains HOMEOPATHY. What more do you want. But tell me, why is it not acceptable to the quacks.

And how come, having side effects is equal to failure of modern medicine. Where the side-effects far out weigh the cure, then it is the failure of the specific drug, in the sense, that it is not acceptable. It is certainly not the failure of the entire "modern medicine".

The question is, are the laws of chemistry being followed or are the laws of biology being followed and are the chain of events occurring as they are supposed to. As long as the answer is yes, modern medicine is right. If, however, such chain of events are doing more bad than good, it is best avoided.
 

sreevirus

Certified Nutz
@ mediator, sorry for being late again, but I’m really stealing time these days to come here because of all the work that I have pending (I’m notorious for procrastinating). :p I got some time today and I’ve gone through the threads very briefly, so I hope you will excuse me for anything overlooked. But anyway, I’ll try to answer as much as I can.

I haven’t read The Final Theory, but from whatever I could gather (from reviews and articles), author seems to have used situations where phenomena do not appeal to common sense to debunk modern physics. That is plain puerile. It seems like he’s using argument from personal incredulity to debunk modern physics. Common sense would tell you wrong things many times. Some centuries ago, common sense would've told people that the earth was flat. Then, common sense would've also told people that the earth was at the centre of the Universe. Some time back, common sense would’ve told me (and I’m sure many others) that when you invert a glass filled with water covered by a paper, the water will fall to the ground, or that when you lie on a bed of nails, you’d be pierced through. But science tells otherwise, with reasons. Common sense told many people some years ago that it was a miracle that Ganesha statues drank milk, but science gave them a rational explanation as to why it happens. If you put an argument from common sense, I can prove 1=2 using flawed algebra or calculus, but people can find that it fits with common sense (heck, i've befuddled my engineering classmates).

A flaw that I found with McCrutcheon’s expansion theory is that if the theory were true, and if gravity is indeed because of acceleration due to increase in mass (because of input of extra energy), then the earth and moon would’ve surely collided. Their masses are increasing right? And if the theory of relativity is wrong according to him, then the orbits of the earth and moon won’t change, would they? That would mean an imminent collision. Maybe I’m wrong, maybe my concepts are weak, but at least that’s what my little knowledge of physics and some things that I read in on the net tell me.

Coming to dark matter, well, from whatever I know of the concept of dark matter and dark energy from watching some programmes on NatGeo and the Discovery Channel, I’ll try to explain it vaguely here. The concepts of dark matter and dark energy were propounded to explain deficiencies in mass and energy because of various equations and observed facts, differences in calculated and observed values (if I’m not wrong). And from what I’ve read, these “hypothetical” concepts do indeed fit and explain things scientifically (and mathematically).

If you feel that something hypothetical like dark matter is being forced into the picture and is a flaw, I’ll give you an instance where a flaw in calculation and observation actually explained a process (of course, I would not be able to explain dark energy here, because I’m no theoretical physicist and I have not studied it, nor can I associate myself with its studies, hehe, its being done by some of the brightest minds on this planet, I have only read articles and seen TV shows on it). But, a defect (as you would put it) on these lines was used to explain radioactive processes like nuclear fission. The formation of energy from nuclear fission is explained as conversion of mass into energy. Something that was explained in my Standard 12 physics I’ll put here:

In the textbook, the explanation was something like: there was a difference in the observed and calculated mass of the heavy atom and the byproducts of fission. I’ll try to explain it here (please bear)

If A is the mass number (sum of neutrons and protons) of a radioactive isotope, and if Z is it’s atomic number (number of electrons or protons), then the total mass of the atom would be:
M = Z(mp + me) + (A - Z)mn
here, mp, me and mn represent mass of proton, electron and neutron respectively.

The mass should’ve been the same before and after fission. But after the process of fission, a deficiency in mass, termed mass defect (Δm), was observed, i.e., the mass of the original atom and the byproducts were not equal. But Einstein’s theory came to the rescue here. When the mass-energy equation E = mc² was applied here, it explained the conversion of the mass defect into energy (I think gamma rays). This was actually observed and proved through experiments. The mass defect here was used to explain binding energy in the atom (basically, its explaining the nuclear force which binds the electrons, protons and neutrons together in the atom). And it accounts for the large amounts of energy released during fission. At least that’s what my tiny brain can explain.

But you see, the point here is that something that was thought as a defect actually was found to be true scientifically. Its something similar that is being done when they use “hypothetical” terms like dark matter. They are mathematical deficiency or observed deficiency that can actually explain various phenomena. Its like solving mysteries of science, putting together pieces in a giant jigsaw puzzle that will ultimately give us a clearer view of the universe. There are fallacies everywhere. Some explanations raise questions. The concept of graviton was introduced to explain gravity. Read the Wikipedia article on graviton and you’ll see that while it fails at a level with standard model, it is consistent with string theory. Here is an example where, as karnivore and legolas said, you see that science continuously tries to find answers to everything, with assumptions based on strong scientific fundamentals.

Now before you apply the same analogy to homeopathy or astrology, let me say that the concepts used to explain anything in these fields are merely speculations that have no scientific support. Ok, homeopathy works, but to explain how it works, they never explained anything scientifically, but put forth a term like “vital force” that has no scientific explanations or theoretical proofs. You just have to believe the homeopaths here, its all a matter of faith. Do you see the difference? Unlike homeopathy, astrology, feng shui, etc., science does not pull theories like the Big Bang or dark matter out of thin air. Theories in science are made out of available evidence, and there have to be conclusive proof to those (atleast mathematically). (And as to how homeopathy works with a scientific explanation, I think placebo has been elaborated here by legolas and karnivore).

And people can believe in totally lame things with sincere conviction. Take the case of Ganesha statues drinking milk. Some people were truly amazed by it and were convinced that it was a divine miracle that clay statues were drinking milk. But science explained why it happened. But some people just refused to accept those explanations, because they were convinced it was a miracle. It doesn’t take much effort to spread superstition and irrational beliefs among people. And it only takes a little rationalism and scientific temper to debunk a lot of misconceptions. But those who are steeped in superstition will never see things through, and will continue to believe what they want to believe (a case of warped reality?).




PS: It might be a while before I make a post on this thread again, because I’ll be damn busy for the next couple of weeks. I got a project to complete and I got about a little over two weeks to do it (procrastination again, you see), and the reason I’ll be using the net will mostly be for literature for my project. So until next time, take care. :)
 
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K

kenwatts

Guest
@Karnivore

The status of any blogger on any given day, is always that of a "Tom, Dick and a Harry". Academic or professional achievements only beg for a more close reading and thats all that there is.
I couldn't agree more--and you've put it better than I did.

Reading your blog, i did not stumble upon anything ground-breakingly new or radical.
I don't claim to say anything ground-breaking or radical. And I didn't mean to imply a "home-grown theory" by saying it it was "my own current theory" -- merely that it was only the theory I currently subscribe to, and that that I'm not claiming to have any final answer.

I doubt very much that substance dualism, in the Cartesian sense, will turn out to be the case, if we ever figure out what is the case.

My own position, at the moment (and I'm not claiming it's a novel one) is that there will likely turn out to be more to matter than we now understand, and that spiritual phenomena (by which I mean things like pain, as opposed to things like ghosts) will turn out to be completely natural, and part of an extended materialism.

Of course, I may well be wrong.

So, your first argument doesn't exactly capture my position, but it's close enough. The second, "mischievous" argument, is one that I see no problem with at all.

I came out of a very religious background -- I was raised a fundamentalist, and have gone through various religious positions before abandoning religion altogether. Many people I knew in that context looked with suspicion on spirituality in general, and would not want to be called "spiritual".

So I see nothing absurd in a person claiming to be a non-spiritual theist.

Of course it all depends on what one means by the word "spiritual". I take it that you mean something by that word which is automatically connected to God or religion, and I agree that many people use the word that way.

You are right that I haven't been too clear on the blog about my own definition of the word "spiritual". I have touched on it here, and here, and here--recognizing some of the different uses. And I am actually in the middle of writing the first of a series that addresses that question at the moment.

My definition--which I'm still formulating--comes out of doing a great deal of work on spirituality in various religious contexts while I was still religious, and how those experiences fit into my current worldview.

Obviously, different people mean different things by the term, so I don't really see myself as disagreeing with what you said, so much as just using the word in a different way than you do.

Nice chatting with you.

Ken Watts,
The Daily Mull
 

legolas

Padawan
Ah I don't think I read bt Big Bang theory on the net, magazine or any newspaper. Textbook? Ah yes!! I think u r not sure of what u just said!!
I would really appreciate if you could answer to this question. This is the 3rd time I am asking the same question and you have nixed aside.
From the theory of homeopathy,
If I dilute say a 32N (normality) of HCN (hydrogen cyanide) by a million times, say, a ppm (parts per million), then will become so strong that if I drink it, I will die??

As regarding the big bang theory, you must also have read about "pulsating theory" in the same context, and you must have also read about, "corpuscular theory of light", "huygen's wave theory", "Quantum theory's dual nature of light". These are theories which suggest how the concept came into existence and which is the most satisfying explanation for the current concept. For the nth time, I am repeating this. Please understand.

I am not questioning the concept of homeopathy regarding the guy's imagination of how the drugs become stronger when diluted, as much as stupid it appears to me, science would have welcomed if it contains proper argument. Please please please make a note of this!!!
The only strong point of homeopathy you have is that, for certain ailments, homeopathy has better statistics than allopathy. Would this be a convincing argument if you advertise this to people with all the other mentioned facts about homeopathy too. Do you think people will believe this??? honestly?
So, please stop comparing scientific concepts which still claim only as the best understanding to science so far and which always welcomes better theories in those regards as a counter-argument for homeopathy. That is not my argument at all. I hoped you understood about this. But I am sorry, I don't think you did. Did you understand now??

Science does not claim Big bang theory as THE theory and no other theories exist. It says its the best explanation Science could come up with so far. You see the difference???

As far as homeopathy is concerned, I can't put more strongly than karnivore. But even if the concept is strikingly imaginative which science always encourages... "how it came into existence while the underlying principles in the first place (where some people who din't even know what this thing is about would have been made guinea pigs, without any documentation what so ever) is not well understood is questionable. For that matter, you can not question any other medicinal views which come under the same pretense and pretext, because homeopathy is not questioned.

That is why I said, just as if alcohol was invented today it would be declared illegal just as ecstasy is NOW (in spite of the fact that the number of deaths produced by alcohol consumption is 100s of thousands in the UK itself, based on a BBC documentary, where as in the UK, ecstasy based deaths are only 18). Alcohol is placed on the 4th most harmful drug with cigarettes at 9th and ecstasy at 18 (with 20 being the least harmful and 1 being most harmful).

Similarly, if a similar concept (as homeopathy) was to be introduced today, with these claims of "internal or vital energy" and claims based on "statistics" ( even though they wouldn't have any coz they would be just introducing), the people are gotten in awareness by the media that much now-a-days that they will start questioning its claim. Homeopathy's only strong point and its sustainence comes from the fact that it was introduced long time back when people did not question its validity.

I hope what I am arguing against is made clear enough so that you dont start comparing that homeopathy was better with the deaths in cholera being 19% during a calamity bla bla... because the vaccination by which most harmful diseases are cured as in, small pox, measles, polio and many other (which I am not aware of) and the lives the so called "modern science" has saved is innumerable. This is what is called the outcome of understanding. So, stop quoting numbers and start claiming its validity.

And now I think u never ever read any of the links!! Is English really that hard??
the problem is, the doctor himself doesn't know why he gave you that particular medicine!
My comment was based on the documentary "The Enemies of Reason Part 2" year 2007 by Richard Dawkins where he monitors a Chief doctor of Homeopathy in the UK where he questions a patient and then prescribes NaCl for her Knee pain and when Richard Dawkins asks him "how can NaCl cure her knee pain, and even if it does, why can't she herself have the common salt? on what basis do you prescribe this?", the chief doctor replied "The truth is no one knows, I don't know it." I don't have to refer any site after hearing this!! Would you?

Judging by ur chldish posts, and the quality of terms like "fart" u were bringing again n again in between randomly, I think I shud have been asking that question. But sorry for being that polite!!:)
Ok. I dint know your senses aren't tuned enough to distinguish and appreciate a little sense of humor or subtle criticism. I am sorry for that.
 
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Kiran.dks

Technomancer
Big thread as big as the big bang theory.
Some simple questions if science is able to answer, I would or rather many will believe that "Science is everything".

1. What triggered "Big Bang"?
2. What existed before " Big Bang" ?

Till now science has no answers! Our space technology is still nothing to explain the formation of Universe.
 

legolas

Padawan
@ kiran_tech_mania,
Science doesn't claim it as the only possible theory. Its just the best explanation science is able to offer so far.
I don't know about you, but, rather than saying, God created the world in 7 days, which is flawed in 2 ways,
1) Ridiculing God's power by saying he needs 7 days to create it
2) Asking the question, who created God?
Philosophy or better put religion explains, God just created it. Again, I don't know about you, but, it just doesn't convince me.
I find a better explanation from science offers, if not, a hope that a better explanation will be offered.

1. What triggered "Big Bang"?
2. What existed before " Big Bang" ?

As far as your questions go, I can only give a rhetorical answer as to how Science tries to explain those. But, it wouldn't be convincing or arguably argumentative. But, what you must understand about the beauty of science is that, there are equal amount of scientists who don't believe in the Big Bang Theory (which is again welcomed by Science because it is not a stable theory) and claim their validations and supposedly better suggestions to it.
Without imagination, we would be lost. Without questioning we would be no different from animals. Blind faith demands it. you do the math.
 

karnivore

in your face..
@ kenwatts.

Best of luck with your new articles and since we have agreed to disagree, there seems to be no point in carrying on with this argument. We will end up repeating all that has already been said, both in favour and against of "Duality" and "Spirituality".

Take care.

@ kiran-tech-mania


Your first question is the age old "First Cause" argument in favour of god (of course you don't mention that, but the sarcastic flavour of your question does point in that direction only). @legolas has already answered it and needs no further clarification.

As with your 2nd question, the answer is given by Stephen Hawkins himself. Since all evidence of what existed before "Big Bang" is automatically lost with the "Big Bang", "We will never know".
 
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