*** Science Or God? ***

Science or God?


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mediator

Technomancer
Re: ***science Or God?***

karnivore said:
How exactly, may i dare to ask ????

It is still unclear HOW HOMEOPATHY WORKS. All i, again, get to know is that it works.

OK fine, it works and frankly i don't care how it does. I just need to know one answer. WHAT HAPPENS TO AVOGADRO'S RULE DURING SUCCUSSION ?? I know for sure, that it doesn't go on a vacation.

For a medicine to work, first it must be capable enough to work. How in the hell, with that much of succussion, does a compound, or shall i say a virtually non-existent molecule of the compound, retain its remedial power, is all that i am asking. (Its almost like asking how exactly the positions/locations of planets effect our future lives)

So far, not a single member of the homeopathy-brigade could come up with a reasonable answer. (But make no mistake, they do have an answer, which is equally, if not more, bizarre than homeopathy itself. I am surprised, that the wise one has not yet locked horns on that issue.)
Now how can I make a rigid soul understand who has already been told and has read that "modern science" straight away rejects the concept of "vital force". And yes, the answer u r looking for, or shud I say u might have read is equally bizaaaaaarrre.

How does homeopathy work

Many of the homeopathic remedies are so diluted that according to the known laws of physics and chemistry, they couldn't possibly have any effect. Once you get beyond a certain point-24x or 12c -there is probably not even one single molecule of the original active substance remaining. This fact is often pointed to by critics of homeopathy as they dismiss the effect of homeopathy as merely due to placebo effect.

And yet, according to homeopathic doctrine and experience, the more diluted the solution, the more potent it is. Homeopaths contend that the remedies work and they see no reason to stop using them simply because we do not understand how they work. They often argue that pharmacologists cannot explain exactly how most conventional drugs work. For example, even aspirin is not fully understood in terms of how it works, but physicians have no difficulty in recommending its use. Over the years several theories have been proposed to explain the action on homeopathic potentization.

Hormesis

The effects of micro-doses have been known for a long time, and there are a number of examples that support the idea that very diluted concentrations of a substance will have a measurable and sometimes profound effect. Scientists call this phenomenon: hormesis. Scientists from Michigan State University have shown how hormesis work in nature. They used micro-doses of a fertilizer to stimulate crop production. In a dose equivalent to a 9x dilution, the fertilizer increased tomato yield by 30 percent, carrots were 21 percent bigger, and corn yield increased by 25 percent.

Our own bodies secrete minute amounts of hormones that have powerful effects. Thyroid hormone is present in our blood at only 1 part per 10 billion-yet this is enough to regulate the rate of our entire metabolism. Many animal studies show that low doses of some substances elicit a beneficial response while high doses are harmful. This phenomenon has been documented to occur with radiation, antibiotics, and heavy metals.

Pheromones

Pheromones are powerful aromatic hormone-like substances that creatures secrete to attract one another. One molecule of moth pheromone is so potent, it will attract another moth from miles away and trigger a cascade of physical reactions. Though well documented, the exact mechanism for pheromones remains unknown.



Homeopathic Remedies Work in Spiritual/Energy Plane and Not in Physical Plane

Homeopathic remedies are believed to work in the spiritual plane as opposed to the physical plane as we are used to think and measure. Hahnemann believed that dilution and succussion released a spirit- like power that worked on the spiritual level of the vital force in humans. We are familiar with the formerly invisible, immeasurable, unknowable energy forms, such as electromagnetic radiation and subatomic particles. Magnets exerted their force long before science could explain the mechanism. Physicists are still trying to explain gravity and the nature of matter, still discovering phenomena such as the "strong force" and the "weak force." Homeopathy is an energy medicine, as are acupuncture and therapeutic touch. Homeopaths believe that although the physical molecules of the original substance may be gone, dilution and succussion leaves something behind-an imprint of its essence, or its energy pattern-that gives it a kind of healing charge. Potentization does not occur if you simply dilute the substance, even if you dilute it repeatedly. Nor does it occur if you only shake the substance vigorously. There is something about each process that builds sequentially upon the other, causing the power to be retained and progressively intensified.

But how does the information in such a minute amount of substance get transferred to the body? Some theorists suggest the repeated succussion creates an electrochemical pattern that is stored in the water carrier and then spreads like liquid crystallization through the body's own water; others say the dilution process triggers an electromagnetic imprinting that directly affects the electro- magnetic field of the body. This concept is used in other therapies also. For example, Ayurveda suggests taking water that has been potentizated by precious metals such as gold. The water is believed to possess curative power as a result of coming in contact with gold and other gemstones although no molecular transfer takes place. The healing power of crystals and magnets are believed to come from their effect on the energy pattern or vibration frequency. So, the suggestion of the homeopathic remedies as working on the energy plane may not be as far fetched as we may think at the first glance.

Homeopathic Remedies Activate the Vital Force

Homeopaths believe that it is the energy or "vibrational pattern" of the remedy, rather than the chemical content, that stimulates the healing by activating what Hahnemann called the Vital force. Vital force is the healing power or energy that exists within us all. It is called by the name Chi by Chinese and Prana by Indian Ayurveda. The vital force fuels the mind, body, emotions and mind. It keeps us healthy and balanced. When the balance of the vital force is disturbed by factors such as stress, pollution, improper diet and lack of exercise, it becomes weakened resulting in the person getting sick.

Scientists who accept the potential benefits of homeopathic theory suggest several theories to explain how highly diluted homeopathic medicines may act. Using recent developments in quantum physics, they have proposed that electromagnetic energy in the medicines may interact with the body on some level. Researchers in physical chemistry have proposed the "memory of water" theory, whereby the structure of the water-alcohol solution is altered by the medicine during the process of dilution and retains this structure even after none of the actual substance remains.

But I'm quite convinced that someone like @scientific-unbeliever wont be able to give any heed to such a topic. I wonder if u have done even any of the 'asanas' or even simple meditation in life yet. Next, I won't be surprised if u ask "How spiritual healing" works!! So ur case is just like the blind theists.

srivirus said:
When did I say mathematics was the answer to everything? I do know that maths has a lot of limitations. Even division by zero is not defined. But there have been workarounds to that limitation. By directing me to a site dealing with vedic mathematics, what do you want to prove? Maybe they did find an answer to some problems? And your point is?
I have already told my point.

It is unscientific to mix philosophy/mythology/metaphysics with pure mathematics. Maybe vedic mathematics did solve some problems (I have read about solutions to quadratic and differential equations, using vedic numerical techniques), but the above post is a little too much pseudoscientific.
Thats why I asked to u read the complete site.

srivirus said:
And I presume you also believe in mythical monkeys who could fly. Did you really go back 2000 years into the past to witness it? What other “proof” do you have other than some “testimony” in some ancient book? This hardly even stands out as an argument. Of course science needs logic. Saying that you should believe in any claim made by any odd guy out there without an iota of reason or logic is what I would say, Is ignorance.
I really don't like to comment upon things of which I haven't acknowledged the effect of. But ur advocation of something that has it flaws too and is based on something which u urself affirm to be erroneous is no better than the thing u quoted here. ANd I'm not interested in in what u think. I can similary think and say that u too r too narrow minded to be walking the path set by modern science alone that u know as well and not observing what other fields have to offer. Don't tell me that a major percent of this world is "ignorant" to be following something spiritual and still getting exhilarated and cured!! No sir, if u have read my links then u wud have found that many knowledgeable souls on this planet who have quest to learn more about science still don't part their ways with stuff like homeopathy,ayurveda, accupunture etc. They practise it, spreading it and are happily living!!

srivirus said:
There have been many a person who have have had prestigious degrees and have committed frauds. Not that I’m directly putting a question mark on your Dr. Mona Lisa Schulz, but as a skeptic, I do have my reservations. And oh, you don’t need to feel sorry for me, thank you very much. The term reality is relative I would say. It can vary from people to people with varying perspectives and points of views.
Sure thats a personal opinion. I have no objection to that!! :)
But there had been plenty of times when I had witnessed such intuition as well. I know u'll reject it. So obviously I wont explain my cases to u. U can term such cases as lucky, but so many lucky guesses?

If u have not practiced upon ur unconcious self then how can u even say a word against it?? IS it really another "sense" that we have not cultivated since childhood and neglected it completely in our quest for "scientific approaches"??

srivirus said:
Modern scientific medicine is passed after various tests. There are different subjects just dealing with it (toxicology, for example). Of course, you could argue that ethics are broken here and there (I would never justify the tests on innocent people that turned fatal). But they are known to deliver in most cases. But is there a surety when it comes to alternative medicine? You are expected to believe whatever is told to you, and the cure, if it does happen, is uncertain.
U talk of belief, then u must have heard about the cases as well where the patient's condition improves just by telling him that he is going to live whereas scientifically he had very minor chances!! U can urself infer what that means.

About ethics, I don't understand why they need to kill animals like rabits to develop medicines for humans when again among humans also we have diff. immune levels. Then leave aside the poor animals.

And the Apollo hoax is just what you can say is a phenomenon you can observe in people (I for one, took it with a pinch of salt). Just put up something which might be remotely true, and people can lap it up easily. There are so many other hoaxes doing rounds. Some people believe in aliens landing on earth. Some don’t believe in the Holocaust.
And how exactly does that relate to spirituality or even science?? A hoax that became a part of course books? R u sure u took it with a "pinch of salt"??

srivirus said:
Goes back to what I said: Reality can be highly relative. It all depends on your perspectives, ideas, beliefs, and what you want to believe.
Exactly!!

Yes, modern science. Find it hard to believe?
Nope just a reflection of what we r dicussin!

ANd Einstein also said this..
"The desire for guidance, love, and support prompts men to form the social or moral conception of God. This is the God of Providence, who protects, disposes, rewards, and punishes; the God who, according to the limits of the believer's outlook, loves and cherishes the life of the tribe or of the human race, or even or life itself; the comforter in sorrow and unsatisfied longing; he who preserves the souls of the dead. This is the social or moral conception of God."
:D

I dunno why we r quoting Einstein like an undisputed God now. Abt the name thats k, I like Sri rather than doing it as "Sree". I hope u wont mind. :)

vyasram said:
Now, ur onto ayurveda/siddha medicine. A lot of people I know have taken them and got good results. Those medicines are prepared by careful research in SCIENCE and then administered. But the researches are so paranoid that they wont let out their formulae to the outside world. That's why it looks like a miracle to you, though it isnt. Allopathy isn't the only medicine out there.
U need more insight of Ayurveda then. How does a simple mix of Tulsi,Badam with milk translates to a "Formula". Wud u like to explain??

And about ur comments part, I really wont like to degrade myself to that level where a person speculates what the opponent did in his skool days and characterizes like @Srivirusaaya Namah said. I guess u need a first hand experience of spiritual stuff. Start with simple meditation!! :)
 

Vyasram

The pWnster
Re: ***science Or God?***

^^^ It might sound weird to you, but I do meditate daily(for peace of mind). Now dont connect meditation with spirituality . Meditation and Yoga are proven techniques( by science ofcourse).

Ayurveda. Well its proven by experiments on people and its definitely science. You call it a simple mix of tulsi, neem, badam; but imagine how much experimental research would the guy who discovered it have done. There are thousands of raw food materials and for a 3 mix, you will get billions of combos. The guy who invented such potions must have researched a lot and is a scientist. But as i said, those guys are paranoid in letting out their secret medicine techniques to the outside world and that makes us feel that ayurveda is magic.

And speculation is an important part of science,
1) u see the sun(observation)
2) u photograph/draw it ( data collection)
3) u think WTF is that ( questioning)
4) u think that it might be a star ( speculation)
5) some guy proves that it is a star ( proof and verification)

Speculation is just jumping to a temporary answer based on logic/patterns without having a concrete proof it. Speculations become theories when someone gives a mathematical proof to it. No one is degraded by speculating.
 

Vyasram

The pWnster
Re: ***science Or God?***

^^^ Meditation is just concentrating by focusing on something and increasing ur attention for the longest spell possible and increasing your discipline. That has got nothing to do with spirituality (atleast the meditation I do). Spiritual meditation is just one type of meditation.


Maybe the only meditation you know is chanting 'Om $hivaya Nama' endlessly till you pass out.

Who's talking about salads? Read those 40 pages out here and you are the one giving 'salads' all the time by just commenting on what others say just to get one over them.
 
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mediator

Technomancer
Re: ***science Or God?***

@Vyasram : I really don't feel like debating with u as ur ignorance on even the simplest subjects is getting annoying. Wth :oops:

Spirituality, Breathing and Meditation for Relaxation
By Rachel Leslie - May 19, 2006

Spirituality, Breathing and Meditation for Relaxation

It has finally reached the medical forefront that overstressing our bodies and minds is not good for us. Stress, which most of us experience daily, causes our bodies to release the hormone cortisol which is toxic on the areas of the brain that deal with memories and emotions and also causes fat to collect around your stomach which is then difficult to remove. We rarely think of our bodies and all that they do for us while we are entrenched in the daily grind. We don't feed ourselves well enough and don't get enough sleep for our bodies to work at peak performance. We need to reclaim a little time and space in our lives to help us relax, de-stress and gain balance in the juggling act of life. Through simple breathing and a little meditation anyone can improve their ability to handle stress and become a little more spiritual.

Being spiritual means different things to different people, from religion and order to nature and the super natural anything pertaining to the human spirit can be seen as a type of spirituality. To look up the definition of spirituality, one is confronted with a series of ideas rather than a clear answer. For the purposes of this article, we can define spirituality as any practice or activity that helps us enjoy ourselves and improve ourselves while we nurture our inner spirit. Based on this definition, one can become more spiritual through activities we enjoy and through things that help us learn more about ourselves and become better people. Basically, all you really need is some time with yourself. Practicing a type of spirituality can help us to identify goals and ambitions we have, allow us to reflect on our lives and actions, and provide us with relaxation and unwinding that we so desperately need.

One simple way to find time for ourselves throughout our busy days is to simply take notice of our breath. Breathing in and out a few times, while paying attention to the flow of our breath, can provide a moment of calm in a busy day. Every one of us can spare a minute to close our eyes and breathe in deeply three to five times as a way of calming ourselves and focusing our intention for our next action. In his book Healthy Aging, Dr. Andrew Weil presents a breathing exercise which achieves the desired effect.

1. Place the tip of your tongue against the ridge behind and above your front teeth and keep it there through the whole exercise.
2. Exhale completely through your mouth, making a "whoosh" sound.
3. Inhale deeply and quietly through your nose to a count of 4 (with your mouth closed).
4. Hold your breath for a count of 7.
5. Exhale audibly through your mouth to a count of 8.
6. Repeat steps 3, 4 and 5 for a total of four breaths.

By completing this exercise you have succeeded in taking the time you need to relieve stress in your life. By doing this exercise you have aided your body by providing much needed oxygen to your cells. You can do the exercise above and then begin to work your way up in repetitions or length of breath. The more time you take in your day to breathe consciously, the better you will feel. Breathing has been proven to reduce stress and increase oxygen flow to the cells which contributes greatly to your overall health and well being.

Another great way to balance stress in your life is to take some time for meditation. This does not necessarily mean that you have to sit in a cross legged position and chant "Ohm" (although you can if you want to). Meditation, like breathing is another way to simply create a space for you to relax. Wikipedia offers a definition of meditation as one of the following:

* a state that is experienced when the mind dissolves and is free of all thoughts
* focusing the mind on a single object (such as a religious statue, or one's breath, or a mantra)
* a mental "opening up" to the divine, invoking the guidance of a higher power
* reasoned analysis of religious teachings (such as impermanence, for Buddhists).

Spirituality, Breathing and Meditation for Relaxation


There are many different kinds of meditation that one can practice. However, anyone can meditate because all it takes is a few minutes of concentration. By concentrating on our breathing, we are partaking in a simple meditation on breath. The goal of meditation, long-term, is to clear your mind and not to think about anything. Although it may sound easy, thinking about nothing is not that easy. It takes practice and concentration to notice your thoughts and it is even harder to simply allow them to be there without it making you think. To be able to meditate there are a few things you need to set up before starting.

1. Don't have expectations about what meditation is. There is no wrong way to meditate. As long as you take the time and try to concentrate you are succeeding.
2. You will need a place to meditate where you feel comfortable. To create an inviting space you can place pillows on the floor for you to sit on, play soft music, or create an altar with things that bring you peaceful feelings such as pictures, candles or incense.
3. Create solitude for yourself. This means finding a space where no one will bother you and turn off the phone.
4. Allow time for your meditation, at least five minutes. As you practice, increase the amount of time you spend in meditation.

In order to meditate there are a few different paths you can choose.

1. Sit and breathe and try to concentrate on your breath for 5-10 minutes
2. Identify a mantra (saying) or object you would like to meditate on
3. Listen to a meditation led by another person. These can be found online as well as in most bookstores on CD
4. Follow a specific type of meditation, such as Transcendental Meditation or Zen meditation
5. A meditation class or group setting

Meditation is giving oneself personal attention. It helps the body and mind rest, relax and rejuvenate and has many benefits to your heath. Studies have shown that daily meditation can help people overcome anxiety and depression, deepen their concentration, stimulate their creativity and lower blood pressure. It has also been shown that a meditation practice can lead to lowering of bad cholesterol, increase lung capacity, and actually slow the aging process.

For the five to ten minutes a day you can spend breathing and/or meditating, you are doing a great deal of service to your body. Not only are you promoting your own health and wellness, but you are also taking time for yourself, developing your spiritual practice and reducing the daily stress in your life. It's not hard and it doesn't take a long time, so why not evolve your spiritual practice and add breathing and meditation into your life?

Rachel Leslie is a certified holistic health counselor and founder of A Cup of Life, Holistic Health Counseling. She is also a partner in Green Parties CT, an organic catering company located in Fairfield County, Connecticut. Rachel lives in Stamford, Connecticut with her husband and son. For more information: www.acupoflife.com.
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The Types Of Spiritual Meditation by Daily Health Tips. Spiritual meditation aims to help a person dig deep into the inner self in order to discover the wisdom and tranquility that lie within. It can be done by developing awareness, harmony and natural order into life through meditation. Different techniques can be employed in order to achieve this.

Different meditation techniques have been developed since ancient times in the effort to help people experience a higher state of consciousness. This usually makes use of the ability to clear the mind of distractions and focusing mainly on the self. Here are some of the techniques that most people use to get in touch with their spiritual consciousness through meditation.

One of the ancient techniques in meditation used is one that Buddhists practice. This technique is called mindfulness meditation and involves learning how to be aware about the things that one does and the things that is happening around at the very moment. This type of meditation technique can take time to master and involves four steps.

The first step is the abstinence from the five moral rules which is killing, stealing, lying, sexual misconduct, and the use of toxic substances. The second step is the practice of Anapana Meditation for three and a half days where a person is taught how to meditate while focusing on one's breathing. The third step involves purifying the mind which involves self observation for six and half days. The fourth step involves speaking and living an extroverted life. This meditation technique closes with the practice of metta bhavana which involves sharing the purity developed with others.

Another type of meditation technique is Transcendental Meditation, the most debated and researched one among the many meditation types. This type of meditation aims to help one attain enlightenment if practiced on the long term. This meditation technique also can help increase intelligence and creativity. This technique does not require the mastery of difficult breathing techniques or the use of some special postures. A person needs only to learn how to concentrate by sitting in a relaxed and comfortable posture and position.

Another meditation technique is the vibrational meditation which involves the repetition of a mantra, a particular word or a sound that becomes the focal point of the meditation process. The vibrations that are produced by making the word or sound is experienced passing through the body. During meditation, the individual is to concentrate on nothing else but the sound as it is uttered again and again.

The Walking Meditation is one of the many other types of meditation techniques that may help one get in touch with one's inner self. It involves learning to focus the mind while walking. Although this meditation technique can be difficult to practice it can prove to be very beneficial. This type of meditation involves focusing on the feet while meditating and trying not to let the mind wander away from every step taken.

These different types of spiritual meditation techniques take time to master. It may be hard for some people to get used to focusing on one thing, due most of the time to the influence of the world in general and how it has clouded and cluttered the mind with thoughts of problems, worries and stress. But with regular practice and eventually making a certain type of meditation technique a regular habit, people may be able to look into their inner selves more effectively and then achieve a higher sense of consciousness that may help one attain inner peace.
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1. What exactly is meditation?

Meditation has been described as a kind of concentrated thinking, but this does not mean just any kind of concentrated thinking. Concentrating on a pet rock or an ice cream is not meditation. Meditation is the process of concentrating the mind on the source of consciousness within us. Gradually this leads us to discover that our own consciousness is infinite. This is why the goal of meditation is sometimes described as "self-realization."


2. What is self-realization?

The goal of meditation is to realize who we really are at the core of our being. The philosophy of yoga says there are two different levels to our inner self: our mental or emotional self and our spiritual self.

The mental self is sometimes called the individual mind. It is limited because it is strongly associated with our limited physical body and is the cause of the feeling "I am this individual person" – our ego. But our real sense of self-awareness comes from our connection to a wider, subtler form of consciousness. Yogic philosophy says there is a reflection of an infinite, all knowing form of consciousness within our minds. This Infinite Consciousness is unchanging and eternal, and is at the core of our true spiritual "Self".

When we identify with the small ego-centred self this is called relative reality, because that small self is prone to change and death. But when we realize that there is a subtler, permanent reality behind the relative one and we see that our true nature is pure unlimited Consciousness, this is known as self-realization.


3. What is the difference between meditation and yoga?

To many the word yoga means a series of physical exercises stretching and tying our bodies into impossible knots. But these physical postures are only one aspect of yoga, known as "asanas". The physical postures of yoga are practiced for their health benefits, and because they help to prepare the body for meditation. Yoga is both a philosophy of life and a system of spiritual practice. The word "yoga" actually means union between the individual self and Infinite Consciousness. Meditation is the most important practice in the yoga system and is the means by which this merger or union is achieved. So yoga is a system or science that enables an individual to develop themselves physically, mentally and spiritually, and meditation is the practice that makes the mental and spiritual development possible.


4. What is the difference between prayer and meditation?

Evidence of the existence of religion dates back more than 40,000 years. Early religions were animistic, believing that the forces of nature were beings or Gods, and later pantheistic, worshiping many deities, and assigning divinity to the invisible but powerful forces of nature that held sway over people's lives. These gods were feared and were appeased through prayer or sacrifice. As society evolved, people gradually realised that there must be a single guiding power behind all these forces of nature, and theistic religions emerged – the belief in only one God. But the relationship was still based on fear, flattery, appeasement and attempts to persuade God to grant favours to individuals. Some religious prayer still reflects this today.

Philosophically, praying to God requesting something or asking God to do something, even for someone else, is illogical. According to all the theistic scriptures of the world, God is an all-knowing (omniscient) and infinitely benevolent being ("God is love"), who already knows if somebody's mother is sick, or someone is unhappy, and surely cares enough to do whatever is necessary to help them. Any concerns, or ideas we have originate with God anyway, so telling God how to run the universe seems inappropriate, to say the least.

In yoga philosophy it is said that since Infinite Consciousness has given us everything, we should not ask that Entity for anything. But if we have to ask for something, we should ask only for more love for God, which is known as devotion.

Prayer can take various forms. What I've described above is known as intercessory prayer – asking for God's intervention in our affairs. More developed forms of prayer include prayers of gratitude, worshipful prayer, contemplative prayer and meditative prayer. These can help to bring the worshipper closer to God through cultivating devotion, the feeling of attraction towards the Infinite Consciousness. But as long as it is based on a dualistic conception of God, meaning that human beings and God are kept inherently separate, prayer cannot be considered meditation. Spiritual meditation places no limit on our realization. It is a non-dualistic practice, and its goal is to merge our inner "I" feeling with the Infinite Consciousness.

I think it very likely that all of the great spiritual teachers practised some kind of spiritual meditation and initiated their closest disciples into this practice. This was their treasured "inner teaching". Often however, with the passing of time, this esoteric part of their teachings was lost or watered down, their later followers were left with only their outer teachings about morality and philosophy. But the key to realising what these enlightened individuals realized has always been, and will always remain, spiritual meditation.


5. Is meditation a science?

Science (from Latin scientia – knowledge) is most commonly defined as the investigation or study of nature through observation and reasoning, aimed at finding out the truth. The term science also refers to the organized body of knowledge humans have gained by such research.

Since the yogic approach to spirituality uses both observation and reasoning to get at the inner truth, it must therefore be a science.

Meditation has been described as "Intuitional Science." Extensive laboratory tests have demonstrated the physiological effects of meditation, but this only shows us its external effects. Even a recording of a person's brainwave patterns is just a measurement of physical electrical waves. It does not tell us exactly what they are thinking or feeling. The only real laboratory for testing meditation is the mind itself, and the results need to be experienced personally. Another name for this science is "Tantra" – the science of spiritual meditation, which enables the practitioner to merge his or her unit mind into Infinite Consciousness.


6. What is spirituality?

Spirituality is that which concerns Infinite Consciousness.

First let me make it clear that "spirituality" should not be confused with "spiritualism", which is concerned with mediums, communicating with the dead etc. Spirituality concerns Infinite consciousness – the same ultimate Truth that was realised by the great spiritual teachers throughout history such as Buddha, Jesus, and Krsna. According to spirituality, the goal of life is to merge the individual mind into Infinite Consciousness, and the way to attain this is by practising spiritual meditation.


7. Is spirituality scientific?

The central idea of spirituality – that Infinite Consciousness is the ultimate reality – is common to most oriental and some occidental forms of mysticism. It is not so remarkable that this idea is widely accepted by mystics and philosophers, but in the last century many scientists have pointed out parallels between quantum theory and the mystical view of reality described in the ancient texts of Taoism, Buddhism and yoga.

Not only Albert Einstein but virtually all his contemporaries including Werner Heisenberg, Niels Bohr, Erwin Schrodinger and Max Planck, in fact most of the pioneers of modern physics testified to a belief in mysticism. When Heisenberg (discoverer of the "Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle") went to India and met with Rabindranath Tagore, the Nobel prize winning poet and a great yogi, he was enormously relieved to find someone who didn't think his ideas were crazy. The ancient yoga philosophy seemed to be saying much the same thing about reality as the emerging Quantum Theory. This has been the subject of much discussion and many publications, particularly since the 1960s. This topic, though fascinating, is beyond the scope of this book. I will refer you to some of those publications for a detailed explanation.


8. What is mysticism?

"The unending endeavour to bridge the gap between the finite and the infinite is mysticism."

Shrii Shrii Anandamurti

"The most beautiful and most profound emotion we can experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is at the root of all true science. Someone to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, is my idea of God."

Albert Einstein



9. What is the difference between spirituality and religion?

The founders of all the great religions taught spirituality, yet religion and spirituality are not the same. When my own spiritual master was asked if he was trying to start a new religion he replied:

"I am not interested in religion. I am interested in human beings and the goal of human beings, and how to bridge the gap between the two."

Many religions may make the same claim, but the reality is that all too often the spirituality taught by the founder of those religions has been lost, or obscured by dogma and ritual. There are profound differences between the teachings of Christ and the practices of mainstream Christianity, between what Krsna taught and Hinduism, between the teachings of the Buddha and Buddhism. Over time, divisions have developed within religions, which have sometimes led to persecution and even war. When you look at the darkest periods of religious history, it is hard to believe that people could depart so far from the exalted teachings of their great preceptors. The original message was spiritual, but to varying degrees that spirit has been diluted or lost through mistranslation and misinterpretation, through the loss of spiritual meditation practices, through the attempts of less evolved individuals to cloak spiritual concepts in dogma, and through religions becoming religious and political institutions.

Within all the major religions there are mystical traditions that include many of the features of spirituality, but these are the exception rather than the rule. They do not represent mainstream religion, and in many cases have even been branded as heresy, and the propagation of such teachings has all too often been rewarded with persecution.

What we are left with in our various religions is a somewhat confusing blend of truth and dogma. If we wish to sift out the spiritual elements it is important to understand the real differences between spirituality and religious dogma. With the passing of time, these differences within mainstream religion have become increasingly distinct:

a. Spirituality is theistic, and has a highly developed and rational concept of God or Infinite Consciousness. Religious dogma can be theistic, as in Judaism, Christianity and Islam, or atheistic, such as Buddhism, Shintoism, and perhaps even communism. Dogmatic Religions generally have either a poorly developed and irrational concept of God, or no concept of God at all.

b. Spirituality is non-dualistic, and states that the purpose of human life is to merge one's self (or sense of "I") into Infinite Consciousness. Theistic religions tend to be dualistic, propounding a fundamental separation between God and the world and the belief that the purpose of human life is to enter into a relationship with God and go to heaven after one dies.

c. Spirituality is practical, and can be experienced and realized by practising spiritual meditation. The focus is inward, taking the practitioner towards a personal realization. Religions on the other hand, emphasise faith and belief, and though they teach people different types of prayer, most of the actual practice is externally focused, involving rituals, festivals and ceremonies.

d. Spirituality is a lifestyle choice, and is integrated into every aspect of a person's existence. Much Religion is ritualistic, and is generally a compartmentalized part of a person's life, practised primarily in temples and churches.

Religion can only serve it's proper purpose of liberating the faithful from ignorance and spiritual darkness, to the degree that it remains true to its original spirituality.


10. What is spiritual meditation?

In Spiritual meditation our mind is directed towards a spiritual idea. The simplest way to conceive of this is to think of infinite love, peace and happiness, or an entity embodying that. We may call it God, but the name is not important. What is important is to remember that this infinite love is within us and surrounding us.

If we pause to consider, it becomes apparent that every experience we have ever had took place within our minds. If we want lasting happiness or love, what better place to look than at the source of these feelings?

Spiritual meditation is concentration on a spiritual idea, an idea associated with Infinite Consciousness, an idea that is greater than our selves. As we contemplate this vast and beautiful idea, our mind is transformed into pure consciousness that has no boundary.

So spiritual meditation is the effort to merge our sense of "I" into Infinite Consciousness.


11. Do you have to be a monk to be successful in meditation?

Clearly not. Buddha was a monk, but Shiva – regarded by many as the father of yoga, had three wives. (This was not unusual 7000 years ago). Swami Vivekananda was a monk, but my own Guru, Shrii Shrii Anandamurti, was married. And many great spiritualists were women, such as St Theresa of Avila (a nun) and Anandamayi Ma (who was married).

I chose to be a monk for both personal and practical reasons, but I certainly do not see it as any kind of pre-requisite for spiritual practice or success on the spiritual path.


12. Isn't it self-centered to sit around meditating all the time when there is so much suffering in the world?

It could be. It rather depends what you would be doing if you weren't meditating. If the answer is "watching television", by all means, meditate. But if it means you are neglecting your family, or using it as an excuse to avoid doing something for others, that is another matter.


13. Is meditation a form of brainwashing?

While it is no doubt true that the minds of some people could do with a good wash, I have to say that meditation is not a form of brainwashing. Usually when people express concern about brainwashing, they are afraid of losing control of their minds and being manipulated.

Meditation actually helps to protect us against having our minds manipulated by strengthening our willpower and making us more self-aware.

If you're seriously concerned about other people manipulating your mind for their own purposes, I suggest that the first thing you do is switch off your television, a device which is used to great effect by advertising companies, amongst others, to influence people's behaviour.


14. Where did the science of meditation first develop?

Tantric meditation was first developed by the tribes of South India 10-15,000 years ago, as an expression of their natural desire to understand their own consciousness. About 7000 years ago it was further developed by Shiva, the great yogi of ancient India. This practice has since spread and been absorbed into different mystical traditions, including yoga, Taoism, Sufism, Zen Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism. Similar practices have also emerged in indigenous cultures.


15. When did meditation come to the West?

Meditation practices were introduced into Europe at the time of the ancient Greeks, some of whom travelled to the East and learned from Indian yogis and philosophers. Alexander the Great, a student of Aristotle, brought a yogi back with him from India to be his spiritual advisor. The great Greek mystic and social reformer, Apollonius, found wisdom in the East and was greatly revered for his spiritual power. He was an advocate of universal religion and propagated the idea of internal rather than external worship. Refusing to champion one popular cult against another, he declared that he "was concerned with the spirit rather than the form of religion."

The early Judaic and ancient Egyptian religions were heavily influenced by oriental mysticism, and many people believe that Jesus may have practised and taught a form of yogic meditation that he learned in India during the 18 years of his life that are unaccounted for in the Bible.

After the collapse of the western half of the Roman Empire in the fourth century, when most of the libraries of Europe were burned, yogic meditation practices died out in the West. Later both indigenous and Christian mysticism were actively suppressed, particularly during the dark period of the Inquisition. Europe became something of a spiritual desert, focusing its attention on intellectual and technological development, militarism, trade, exploration and conquest. Religious institutions started to take a greater interest in politics than in spirituality.

But in the 1890s a spiritual renaissance began in Western civilization with the reintroduction of oriental practices by Swami Vivekananda, the dearest disciple of the great Indian saint, Sri Ramakrsna. Vivekananda was the first modern yogic master to come to the West at the beginning of the twentieth Century. This period saw the emergence of the Theosophists and Rudolf Steiner's school of Anthroposophy as well as a growing interest in Eastern mysticism amongst European intellectuals like Carl Jung, Aldous Huxley, and Herman Hesse. After Swami Vivekananda others followed, and in the 1960s, interest in eastern spirituality exploded in Europe and America, quickly spreading across the globe, even as far as New Zealand. The most refined expression of this merging of cultures may be found in the writings of the great Indian mystic and philosopher Shrii Shrii Anandamurti, who was the first spiritual preceptor to create a harmonious blending of occidental rationality and oriental mysticism. He was the founder of the modern spiritual movement, Ananda Marga, meaning The Path of Bliss.

Although spiritual meditation originated in southern India in ancient times, its influence can be found in many spiritual traditions. Today it continues to address a universal human need.


16. What kind of meditation do you teach?

The nature of the object or idea you choose to concentrate on in meditation will dictate the outcome. Meditation can be done for spiritual growth, or for relaxation and stress reduction, or even for some other reason, such as success in a sport or a career. The distinguishing feature of all spiritual meditation techniques, as taught in the great spiritual traditions, is that the technique has at its heart the idea of Infinite Consciousness – it is the contemplation of the infinite.

In Tantric meditation the practitioner learns a personal technique through a process of initiation and is taught a mantra which is repeated mentally. He or she is taught how to withdraw the mind from the external world and how to concentrate internally. The primary goal of Tantric meditation is to merge the individual consciousness into Infinite Consciousness. This is the type of meditation taught in the modern Tantric school of Ananda Marga.


17. Aren't you biased? You only practice one type of meditation – how can you be objective about other methods?

I may be biased – none but an enlightened soul is perfectly objective. I think the technique I am practising is the best, at least for me – otherwise I'd be doing something else. At the same time, it seems obvious that there are many paths to enlightenment – otherwise how could people from different traditions have attained self-realization? I try to keep an open mind, and from my study of a wide variety of teachings I have understood that there are common psychological and spiritual principles that can be used in spiritual practice. The extent to which these principles are understood and applied will determine the effectiveness of a technique in taking us forward on the path of spiritual progress.

For example, it is a widely accepted tenet of psychology that "as you think, so you become." If this principle is applied in spiritual meditation, it means we should concentrate on the idea of infinite consciousness. But if we have been taught since childhood to feel guilty, or afraid of God, this will make it more difficult to practice. If, on the other hand, we are taught that we are children of the Divine, and that our true nature is perfect and loving, then the feeling of bliss in meditation comes far more naturally.

It is not necessary to learn all techniques in order to grasp how they work. In any event it would not be possible in one lifetime – it is hard enough to master even one.


18. How do you know if this is the right meditation technique for me?

This is something you have to decide for yourself. If you come across a practice that makes sense to you, and feels right, I suggest you try it. If you then experience that it is bringing the kind of changes you feel you need, keep doing it. If you experience difficulties, be patient. Don't be too hasty to switch to another technique. You may face the same problem again, and be forced to realise that the problem was with you, not with the technique. If, after giving it your best shot, it still doesn't seem to be working, try something else. But don't keep shopping around forever – you should try to find a technique you're happy with and stick with it. Remember those holes we were digging for water? If you keep starting new holes you're going to get pretty thirsty.


19. Do I need to have a guru to learn meditation?

The word "Guru" means "dispeller of darkness", and really refers to the Infinite Consciousness acting as teacher and guide to individual souls. So since Infinite Consciousness is omnipresent, the real Guru is within us already.

When an individual has attained self-realization, they are often referred to as a Guru, because the Infinite Consciousness within them is able to act and speak without the distortions of ego. So they are able to play the role of a perfect teacher and guide to others.

In the Bhagavad Giita, Arjuna asked his Guru, Krsna, whether it was possible to attain enlightenment through the guidance of the Divine, inner Guru, without the assistance of a Guru in physical form. Krsna told him that it is not essential to have a physical Guru, but if you do not, it will probably take you about 10,000 times as long to attain enlightenment.

Thirty years ago, I wanted to learn meditation but I didn't know how to begin. I read some books on the subject, and with what wisdom I could glean from their pages I began to practice. Which means I wasn't teaching myself – I was learning from those authors. Indirectly, they were my first teachers, even though they were no longer alive. Soon I realised that I needed clearer guidance and I began searching for a living teacher.

The fact that you're reading this book indicates that you want information about meditation. All of the knowledge in this book comes, directly or indirectly, from a Guru. Practically all of the spiritual books of the world derive their ideas from great spiritual teachers – Gurus. If they don't, they should. They are the pioneers on the spiritual path who go before us and light the way to guide we who follow. And those who, for whatever reason, do not follow, miss out on a golden opportunity.

Some people are afraid that having a Guru means you have to follow someone blindly. This is a misconception. My Guru often quoted an old scripture that says that if a child says something rational we should accept it, and if God himself says something irrational we should discard it like a straw. Genuine spirituality does not deny rationality.

And what is the rational course when seeking self-knowledge? When we are entering the mysterious realm of consciousness, the most rational course is to take the advice of a guide who knows the territory well.

If you do not have the chance to meet personally with a real Guru (and they are few and far between) do not despair. It is possible to learn from a Guru through their writings, through learning of their inspiring example, and directly from people they have appointed to pass on their teachings and techniques. And through meditation it is possible to establish a personal relationship with the inner Guru, who is ultimately the only Guru anyway.


20. What does meditation cost?

Traditionally spiritual meditation has been taught free of charge and it is available to all, regardless of a person's economic status. Meditation is a subtle spiritual practice and no monetary value should be attached to it. To attach monetary value to meditation taints and degrades it.

Nevertheless, there is a price. To get results from meditation you have to put something into it – your own valuable time and effort.


21. How much time does it take?

I recommend that beginners spend at least 15 minutes twice a day in meditation. Later this can be increased to two half hour sessions. This will give a good result, though some people choose to meditate for longer periods and experience even greater benefit as a result. How much you get out of your meditation is directly related to what you put into it.
Source
And what were u sayin bt meditation?? :)

Either u don't really do meditation or ur practice is too weak that u can't even relate things or form ur very own independent outlook. :)

vyasram said:
Maybe the only meditation you know is chanting 'Om $hivaya Nama' endlessly till you pass out.
Mocking the ones who do such stuff doesn't look good form a mouth that himself doesn't know that very basic definition of meditation. It only makes u look idiotic!! :)
 
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karnivore

in your face..
Re: ***science Or God?***

Convenient, isn't it. And contradictory, too, as i will prove here.

But first the quotes. On one hand quacks admit, that..
..there is probably not even one single molecule of the original active substance remaining
and then go on to claim, it still works AND its not PLACEBO. Then cite examples of less/little known phenomenon to justify it all, that since there are things unexplained, don't expect an explanation here.

The fact that since "not even one single molecule of the original active substance" remains in the solution, the solution remains pure distilled water, and nothing less, is conveniently overlooked. Administering such a "medicine", if you can call it "medicine", is akin to administering, pure distilled water, with or without flovour.

This naturally, rules out with convincing scientific evidence, that the homeopathy, can't work on a chemical level. But homeopathy "works". Hence the quacks conjured up a mumbo-jumbo called "vitality".

Lets for a second assume, there is this thing called "vitality". Immediately, the first contradiction comes to view. Why, if "vitality" is the core tenet of homeopathy, is there a need to mix a "substance" with water in the first place, when, admittedly, non of its molecule remains in the ultimate solution ??

So to justify, the process of making solution, these quacks conjured up another crap, called Memory of Water. (Pathetic to say the least) The theory has been blown to smithereens by the scientific world but who is listening. Here comes the second contradiction. If water has memory (sic) and can remember the chemical content of the substance, then homeopathy definitely works on chemical level. Then what is "vitality" doing here ??

In a nutshell, hemeopathy is as effective, as astrology is or for that matter, voo-doo is.

Tell u the truth. I too believe in "vitality". But definitely not in the sense that it is portrayed here. If by "vitality" we mean the brain's ability to heal the body, then it is nothing but PLACEBO, which BTW is a scientifically proven fact.

I am, however, not sure how my doing, or not doing, of "asanas" is relevant for understanding of HOMEOPATHY. As with "spiritual healing", well, if those are true, then, pigs can fly and i am the second son of the GOD.

I will be obliged if u please reference this quote of Einstein
"The desire for guidance, love, and support prompts men to form the social or moral conception of God. This is the God of Providence, who protects, disposes, rewards, and punishes; the God who, according to the limits of the believer's outlook, loves and cherishes the life of the tribe or of the human race, or even or life itself; the comforter in sorrow and unsatisfied longing; he who preserves the souls of the dead. This is the social or moral conception of God."
When, where, under what circumstances, did he say this. Because tell u the truth, i am not convinced that he said something like this. As far as i know, thanks to, Richard Dawkins and Max Jammer, Einstein's god was "pantheistic" and certainly not "theistic". It was he who commented:
It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
I am a deeply religious nonbeliever. This is a somewhat new kind of religion.
I have never imputed to Nature a purpose or a goal, or anything that could be understood as anthropomorphic. What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill
a thinking person with a feeling of humility. This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism.
The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naive.

As with the "hoax" of lunar landing, there is a thread here, where, it has been discussed/debated at length. Go take a look.
 

mediator

Technomancer
Re: ***science Or God?***

Convenient, isn't it. And contradictory, too, as i will prove here.

But first the quotes. On one hand quacks admit, that..

and then go on to claim, it still works AND its not PLACEBO. Then cite examples of less/little known phenomenon to justify it all, that since there are things unexplained, don't expect an explanation here.

The fact that since "not even one single molecule of the original active substance" remains in the solution, the solution remains pure distilled water, and nothing less, is conveniently overlooked. Administering such a "medicine", if you can call it "medicine", is akin to administering, pure distilled water, with or without flovour.

This naturally, rules out with convincing scientific evidence, that the homeopathy, can't work on a chemical level. But homeopathy "works". Hence the quacks conjured up a mumbo-jumbo called "vitality".

Lets for a second assume, there is this thing called "vitality". Immediately, the first contradiction comes to view. Why, if "vitality" is the core tenet of homeopathy, is there a need to mix a "substance" with water in the first place, when, admittedly, non of its molecule remains in the ultimate solution ??

So to justify, the process of making solution, these quacks conjured up another crap, called Memory of Water. (Pathetic to say the least) The theory has been blown to smithereens by the scientific world but who is listening. Here comes the second contradiction. If water has memory (sic) and can remember the chemical content of the substance, then homeopathy definitely works on chemical level. Then what is "vitality" doing here ??

In a nutshell, hemeopathy is as effective, as astrology is or for that matter, voo-doo is.

Tell u the truth. I too believe in "vitality". But definitely not in the sense that it is portrayed here. If by "vitality" we mean the brain's ability to heal the body, then it is nothing but PLACEBO, which BTW is a scientifically proven fact.

I am, however, not sure how my doing, or not doing, of "asanas" is relevant for understanding of HOMEOPATHY. As with "spiritual healing", well, if those are true, then, pigs can fly and i am the second son of the GOD.

I will be obliged if u please reference this quote of Einstein

When, where, under what circumstances, did he say this. Because tell u the truth, i am not convinced that he said something like this. As far as i know, thanks to, Richard Dawkins and Max Jammer, Einstein's god was "pantheistic" and certainly not "theistic". It was he who commented:





As with the "hoax" of lunar landing, there is a thread here, where, it has been discussed/debated at length. Go take a look.
What a waste! It seems u didn't read my previous post. Sorry for not having posted the source of it.
I don't see how memory of water is "pathetic to say the least"? After all it is also a theory put forward!! So if u can 'believe' in big bang theory, all the weird 'scientific theories' in the world n whine endlessly that theories are integral, then why not this one??

I am, however, not sure how my doing, or not doing, of "asanas" is relevant for understanding of HOMEOPATHY. As with "spiritual healing", well, if those are true, then, pigs can fly and i am the second son of the GOD.
U can't even comprehend what I said and relating spiritual healing with ...<wateva> was really childish!


Neways nice one, u have proved a lot!! :)
 

Vyasram

The pWnster
Re: ***science Or God?***

You think that anyone would read all that ?

From Wikipedia:

Meditation is a discipline in which the mind is focused on an object of thought or awareness. It usually involves turning attention to a single point of reference. The practice may engender a higher state of consciousness.

Like I said, ur posts too tell that spiritual meditation thinking abt God/souls is just one form of meditation. A lot of athiest meditate without believing in the spiritual aspects. U need a lecture from some expert on this subject coz meditation is synonymous for you with spirituality and u cant' learn over it.

As for your thoughts on science:

An old saying in Tamil goes

" dont waste your f'in time trying to straighten a dog's tail"

I learnt it the hard way here.

"I'd love to stay and chat but "........................
 

karnivore

in your face..
Re: ***science Or God?***

Yes O Wise one. You are so right and i am so wrong. Once again, i bow down to your infinite wisdom.
 

mediator

Technomancer
Re: ***science Or God?***

vyasram said:
You think that anyone would read all that ?
vyasram said:
Like I said, ur posts too tell that spiritual meditation thinking abt God/souls is just one form of meditation. A lot of athiest meditate without believing in the spiritual aspects. U need a lecture from some expert on this subject coz meditation is synonymous for you with spirituality and u cant' learn over it.
vyasram said:
Now dont connect meditation with spirituality .
vyasram said:
Like I said, ur posts too tell that spiritual meditation thinking abt God/souls is just one form of meditation. A lot of athiest meditate without believing in the spiritual aspects. U need a lecture from some expert on this subject coz meditation is synonymous for you with spirituality and u cant' learn over it.
Amazing!!
..
..
The rest of ur post expresses sarcasm at its best from a parched throat/lips that cannot find anything better to say!! May be u and a few more scientific-blind-believers wud like to open another thread and spit ur mindless rhetorics and personal comments in there and make a favourable accomodation there. Post only if u have something useful to post!!

I'm too uninterested now to even find any 'interesting' arguments in ur post. I tried to grep too much but the answer was >> /dev/null !! :)

karnivore said:
Yes O Wise one. You are so right and i am so wrong. Once again, i bow down to your infinite wisdom.
Disappointment! :oops:
 

Vyasram

The pWnster
Re: ***science Or God?***

May be u and a few more scientific-blind-believers wud like to open another thread

Yup, now I totally believe in that Tamil saying. I should've learnt that a lot earlier really. Atleast a day ago.

OMF, I stayed and chatted. Just couldn't resist boldening that :D

So here we go again

"I'd love to stay and chat but ... ... . ..... ....."
 
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legolas

Padawan
Re: ***science Or God?***

@Mediator,
The problem is, the concept of God itself, I think, is created by mankind to put blame on a "supernatural" force and resent him for our "sins" and put all our burdens on him "supposedly" without having the courage to face them.

We might as well pray towards a sheep or a polar bear.

Look at the forms of God. Every literature combines all the forms of animals or humans to give a structure of God, starting from Elephants to rats to lion to tiger to man... Why not a bacteria? because at that time of imagination, we dint know about it. Now, you can always say, its just a way of getting related and being closer with a human form.. but its just what man can reach... and its plain bull ****.

Those who claim God exists, either should have seen, or heard, or felt Him. I am pretty sure no body has seen God. Many have hypothesis about lots of things by hearing crap from others. But, a genuine argument is that they have felt him.

Now, here comes the problem. Those who have really felt God... would not be materialistic!!! The feeling you claim to have felt God is just a feeling of guilt or maturity over your actions and proclaiming that you are better than before. Its not Godliness. To tell that you have understood God and felt him just like that is to demean God even by your standards.

As far as those who claim to believe in God from religion, Christianity says "Sun goes round the Earth". Everybody knows it and its crap. This is why Galileo was punished!! :)

God created the world in 7 days. For such a supreme power, why would it take 7 days to create a mere human world?? Doesn't it underestimate the potential of the SUPREME power??

My argument is (not conclusion) as I told before, God is just a concept, a perception just like superman and spiderman (which again are manifestation of animals and insects with human, a fictionary character)
 

mediator

Technomancer
Re: ***science Or God?***

^^I really appreciate ur post. But it seems that u have neither gone thru the debate nor thru even the recent recent posts of mine. Let me show it simply by quoting u...

Now, here comes the problem. Those who have really felt God... would not be materialistic!!! The feeling you claim to have felt God is just a feeling of guilt or maturity over your actions and proclaiming that you are better than before. Its not Godliness. To tell that you have understood God and felt him just like that is to demean God even by your standards.
I have lost the count of times when I have told that I am atheist myself!! And that means I DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD. But if u have experienced or even read properly then u must have understood pretty clearly that even an atheist too can very well be spiritual.

U have explained the 'God' scenario. But what the blind science believers lack is the ability to question in depth or an "independent thinking". I am not arguing that God is true, coz its the synonymously used to represent infinite consciousness too many times. U can see my vote and I don't believe in GOD 'for the meaning I know'. Then comes science. If u have read the topic even partially then u must have realized that hardcore science supporters themselves say science hold truth and answer to everything. Yes I don't not doubt it, coz the meaning of the science itself is to know the nature and world around!! Thats why even the researchers on 'intuition' term it as "intuitional science". U can see very knowledgable people like doctors and scientists themselves writing articles on intuition and how the intensity of it is high with their cases or in them. But on the other hand u have "modern medicine and science" which doesn't hold importance to factors like state of mind, patient's living conditions and environment and other factors. It is the approach that is faulty and thats what I have posted. Read the debate it if u wud like to go thru. U need more insight of the spiritual world to know more about it and until and unless u have "experienced" it urself, how can u even question it or deny it?? This is what even 'science' asks isn't it.....'observation and experience"?? And if hardcore science believers laugh at it absurdly just becoz science can't explain it, then I might laugh equally coz of the errors/flaws/limitations in the "modern science and its approaches" which is based upon "faulty modern mathematics". Again I wud like u to ponder upon the basic definition of the science. "To Believe blindy" is what all I object.

Science is still researching on subjects like "homeopathy", "intuition" etc. And here we have cases that outwardly and blatantly 'reject' it!! Now what do u call that??

Here we had a perfect one:

Person M : Science rejects the conept of "vital force" in homeopathy which is essential for it.

Person K : But where's the science in it?? Please prove it. I find "memory of water" a pathetic concept.

M : I have already said, science rejects the idea behind homepathy. But if u can believe in all the wierd modern science theories, then why not the theory behind "memory of water"??

K : I wud still need the proof of it.
M : Sire, science is not relevant in anyway here like they say about the subject like "intuition" as well.

K : Then how can u take homepthatic medicines?? The science has not resolved it.
M : But it has been thoroughly practised, observed for hundred of years. They know how to make it with appropriate procedure and for decades is found to be working wonders.

K : But without the logic behind it, it can be injurious to someone.
M : It is known to be more "user-friendly". On the other hand there have been cases where people have deteriorated and died from the intake of "prescribed modern medicines". Shud I say 'modern science' doesn't work?? But I know something that works although not scientifically explained!!

U see there is no limit to the twisted logic. If u wud still like to say 'only' modern science holds all the answer now which is itself based on limitations/errors/flaws, then I have nuthing else to say save that u are only limiting urself to the world of "limited modern science"!!

I wud like u too to read this site peacefully=> Vedicganita.org and all my recent replies. But it wud be nice if u go thru the debate!! :)
 

Faun

Wahahaha~!
Staff member
Re: ***science Or God?***

The only thing that can answer everything is our own brain, we are still on 10% of our brain revelation.

There is probably much more to explore, even the possibilities of psychic powers is plausible.

Just read thru this article:
*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_brain

Probably the truth lies within us, but neither science nor a figment of supreme personality will divulge it.

May sound stupid but still I found is reasonable enuf.

As far as science is concerned, it is severely limited by the ability of instruments and human itself. We are on asymptotes but never at any time will be at the zenith of truth.
 

karnivore

in your face..
Re: ***science Or God?***

Here's another version of the story:

M : Science rejects the conept of "vital force" in homeopathy which is essential for it.
K : I guess this absolutely removes the necessity to explain why something, which is, un-provable, un-reachable, and essentially a "sky-fairy", is essential for it. Why does homeopathy, whose elements are all "material", need something "non-material" to work upon ??

M : I have already said, science rejects the idea behind homeopathy. But if u can believe in all the wierd modern science theories, then why not the theory behind "memory of water"??

K : Science never rejects the idea behind homeopathy. I merely says that it is nothing but "PLACEBO". Thats all that there is to it. All these procedures and everything are nothing but elaborate "illusions" to draw the patients into believing that they are indeed being treated methodically.

Jacques Benveniste, learnt it the hard way, that gimmick is not "science". Till date, his theory has been tested in ways that he described and so far no concrete evidence has been found in favour of "memory of water". We can safely say, that "memory of water" is no longer a theory waiting to be proved, but a tried, tested and failed theory at best, or at worst, a pathetic attempt to explain homeopathy.

Scientific theories are all based on either, hardcore evidence or on "logic". Theory of "memory of water" can't trace its origin either to any evidence or to any logic. It simply is a product of the fertile brain of Benveniste.

(Actually, i always felt the theory of "vitatility" was a far clever way of explaining homeopathy, simply because it took it into the realms of "un-provability", just like "god theory.)

M : Sire, science is not relevant in anyway here like they say about the subject like "intuition" as well.
K : Sir, if science is not relevant in anyway, then why is it acceptable to believe in "memory of water", which is nothing but a "scientific" attempt to prove homeopathy. Shouldn't we say, who cares about "memory of water".

Also, sir, may i ask - if someday it is "somehow proved" that homeopathy has indeed a "scientific" basis, would you still say, "science is not relevant in anyway", or would you be the first one to embrace it as "science" and rub it in the face of all its critics.

M : But it has been thoroughly practised, observed for hundred of years. They know how to make it with appropriate procedure and for decades is found to be working wonders.
K : But so is astrology, numerology, voo-doo and, if you ask a believer or someone who has "personally experienced" it, they all work. As with the procedure, isn't it the most dubious part of homeopathy. And yes, it "is found to be working wonders" because it is works not on the body, but on the psychology of the patient.

M : It is known to be more "user-friendly". On the other hand there have been cases where people have deteriorated and died from the intake of "prescribed modern medicines". Shud I say 'modern science' doesn't work?? But I know something that works although not scientifically explained!!
K : Of course it is user-Findlay. Something which does not have any effect on the body, is bound to be user-friendly. Wrong administering of drugs can hardly be termed as failure of "Modern Medicine". Although the side-effects of modern medicine is a serious matter of concern, it no way negates the principles of modern medicine.

K : How about those contradictions, sir. If "vital force" exists and works, why do we need to have "memory of water".

M : What a waste.

...even an atheist too can very well be spiritual.

SPIRITUAL ATHEIST ????? Priceless. Kids, if u r having a hard time understanding what a "oxyMORON" is, you have a priceless example here. I can almost hear Bertrand Russell, Darwin, David Hume, among several others, turning in their graves. (Sorry, couldn't resist)
 

mediator

Technomancer
Re: ***science Or God?***

fatal science flaws
Q: What is gravity?
A: The answer cannot be found in today's theories.
Newton only claimed that gravity was an attracting force
between all objects because that's the way things appear --
objects fall to the Earth or approach each other when floating
in outer space. So Newton understandably claimed that it
must be some type of attracting force emanating from objects,
but he gave no scientific explanation for this force. Why does
it attract and not repel? How does it cause falling objects and
orbiting planets without drawing on any known power source?

Einstein was so dissatisfied with our lack of understanding
about gravity even two centuries after Newton that he invented
an entirely new theory of gravity, known as General Relativity.
Yet this theory doesn’t solve these problems either, adding
that since everything in 3-dimensional space takes time to
occur we must include our time measurement as a literal 4th
physical dimension of our universe’s structure -- hence
"4-D space-time", which somehow warps 4-dimensionally in
the presence of matter for still-unexplained reasons,
presumably explaining gravity.

In addition to the increase in unanswered questions with
General Relativity, it has been found to completely fail even to
explain the motion of stars in galaxies. This has led to the
further invention of exotic "Dark Matter", said to invisibly fill
galaxies, rather than questioning Einstein’s theory and the
often-repeated claim that it has been tested to extreme
accuracy. Add to this the fact that there are still a half-dozen
theories of gravity officially under consideration at the
moment, all with different physical description of gravity,
and it is no wonder many are still asking: "What is gravity?"

From "Nailing Down Gravity", Discover Magazine, Oct 2003:

For Michael Martin Nieto, a theoretical physicist at Los
Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico, the mystery
involves much more than a few hunks of spacefaring
hardware; it reveals that there might be something wrong
with our understanding of gravity, the most pervasive
force in the universe. "We don't know anything," he says.
"Everything about gravity is mysterious"

==> To learn what gravity truly is, see Chapter 2
where a new and totally overlooked atomic
principle is revealed!


Q: But don't we know all about the gravity of Black
Holes and how even light can't escape?

A: No. This often-repeated error is based on a clear oversight.
Black Holes are said to form when a star expends its nuclear
energy and physically collapses. But starlight only shines from
intact, functioning stars, of course. There is no more reason to
expect light to shine from Black Holes than from a burnt-out,
smashed light bulb. This is a commonly repeated error in
plain view that is intended to showcase and dramatize our
scientists' deep understanding of Black Holes and gravity, but
which actually exposes how little is truly understood about
either.



Q: How can scientists be so mystified by gravity
yet also claim to explain it?
A: This is a basic conflict in our science. It is the function
of our educational institutions to teach the beliefs of the day
and to stand by them no matter what. This often means
justifying or defending theories that are actually indefensible
upon any serious close inspection. Take a good look at these
examples of fatally flawed explanations related to gravity in
plain view, which are commonly taught as correct in physics
classes around the world today:

1) Gravitational Perpetual Motion:

As we all know, perpetual motion machines are impossible,
and claims of such devices are a clear sign of bad science.
No device (or natural phenomenon) can expend energy
without draining a power source, and certainly cannot operate
with no power source at all. Yet our science states that an
object dropped into a tunnel cut through the Earth would be
accelerated to the center by gravity, then decelerated as it
approached the other end, only to be accelerated down again,
over and over – endlessly. Even our most elementary physics
states that it takes energy expenditure from a known power
source to accelerate and decelerate objects, yet there is no
power source in site here, let alone a draining one. Despite
detailed atomic theories and even having split the atom,
science has never identified a gravitational power source.
This describes an actively operating mechanism that never
ends and never drains a power source – an impossible
perpetual motion scenario, according to today’s physics.

2) The Work formula:

When all else fails, we are told not to worry about the
gravitational power source because gravity never does any
work throughout the universe. According to today’s science,
all of the gravity-driven dynamics in our universe occur without
any work being done, therefore there is no reason to expect
energy expenditure from any power source – no power is
required for any of it. We are told that objects are pinned
forcefully and continually to the planet by gravity, but since
they just sit there, even though forcefully pinned down, no
energy source is required to explain this. How can such a claim
be justified? Simple – ignore the physical gravitational energy
expenditure and recast it as a formal Work scenario. Why does
this suddenly seem to solve such a deep physical problem?
Because the formal definition of Work in physics is: (force
applied) x (distance moved). Note: this is not the form of
work that we all relate to, where expending energy is doing
work. Instead, Work, by definition, ignores all energy expended
unless it happens to move something. While this formal Work
definition does calculate the energy expended to move objects
it will also obviously give a zero result whenever an applied
force cannot move an object, such as when we push on a wall
or when gravity pulls on an object that is already on the ground.
Of course this does not mean no energy was expended, but
simply that the Work equation was only designed to deal with
a very limited energy scenario where the applied force happens
to move something. It is an extremely grievous elementary
abuse of physics to borrow the formal Work formula and
misapply it to a scenario where no motion exists just to claim
that the "zero work" result means no energy source is required
to forcefully pin objects to the ground. Part of the reason this
explanation has been allowed to slide for so long is because
this very limited Work definition has the same name as the
actual concept of energy-driven work that we are familiar with.
So when an authority figure presents a formal "Work" equation
from a physics textbook and does a calculation that gives a
"zero work" result, apparently resolving enormous questions
about gravity in our science, it is difficult to resist the "no work,
no energy" assurance from a teacher, which everyone else
seems ok with, never to seriously question it again. And so it
goes, generation after generation, leading to the current mess
we have over common gravity in our science today.

Even the forceful constraining of the moon in its orbit is said to
require no energy, since the Work equation is also defined to
give zero when an object moves perpendicular to the applied
force. So the fact that gravity pulls downward on the passing
moon is said to free science from acknowledging the enormous
energy that must be required to constrain the moon in orbit.
Not only is this just as grievous and elementary an error as
shown above for all the same reasons, but it further mistakes
the motion of the passing moon as pertinent to the calculation.
In actuality, the moon already had a pre-existing coasting
motion past the planet that has nothing to do with gravity’s
pull. It is the continual motion of the moon downward due to
the downward pull of gravity that keeps its coasting constrained
to circle the planet rather than proceeding off into deep space.
Once the thinly veiled "zero work" excuses are removed, it is
clear to see that none of today’s gravity theories can answer
even the simplest physical questions about gravity, which is
why the Work equation diversion technique is used over and
over in classrooms around the world when such questions
arise, since the only alternative is to admit "I don’t know".

==> All of these issues are resolved in Chapter 2


Q: How can a fridge magnet cling against gravity
endlessly without draining a power source?
A: It can't ... fridge magnets are impossible according to
today's science. It certainly takes tremendous energy to
cling to the side of a cliff, supporting our own weight against
gravity, and before long we would tire and fall. Yet a fridge
magnet clings endlessly to the fridge by magnetic energy.
And, as both our science and our experience tell us, such
an expenditure of energy requires that a power source be
drawn upon to support such effort. Yet a permanent magnet
not only maintains its strength indefinitely (no theory or text-
book shows the power drain characteristics of a permanent
magnet as it clings against the pull of gravity), but there isn’t
even a power source in sight! Endless magnetic energy
apparently emanates from permanent magnets without
any explanation in our science. The only explanation that any
physicist will give for this mystery is that there is no mystery
since the magnet isn't moving, which gives a zero result if
you plug this into the Work equation – a severely flawed
diversionary tactic that was exposed above. No physicist will
acknowledge the error of applying the Work equation to deny
the ongoing magnetic energy expenditure, nor agree that a
power source is required to cling energetically against gravity.

This excerpt from an article on magnetism in Discover
Magazine, Dec. 2002, further makes this point:

Moreover, asking that question [why some non-metallic
objects are magnetic] inevitably lets you in on a surprising
secret: Physicists are also a little fuzzy about those bits of
iron alloy attached to your refrigerator. "Only a few people
understand -- or think they understand -- how a permanent
magnet works," says Makarova [a Russian physicist
working at Umea University in Sweden]. "The magnet of
everyday life is not a simple thing. It's a quantum-
mechanics thing ... I'm just working as an engineer, trying
to find out where the magnetism comes from."
==> These mysteries and law violations are
resolved in Chapter 4, where a totally
overlooked and misunderstood subatomic
principle is revealed!



Q: How can freezing water expand, even bursting
metal pipes, with no energy input to explain it?

A: According to today's science, this is impossible. Every
output of energy requires a balancing energy input in order
to remain within our laws of physics. A balloon left in the sun
will expand and burst, in the process doing work against the
surrounding atmosphere and its elastic skin, which is balanced
by the energy input from the sun, so it is no mystery. However,
freezing water has no energy input -- in fact, just the opposite.
Energy continually drains from the water as it cools toward
freezing. So, how does the water suddenly expand with such
force from within that it easily bursts metal pipes? No solid
answers to this mystery can be found from today's scientists --
only confused hand-waving diversionary responses that still
do not answer this clear energy balance violation.
==> This mystery is solved in Chapter 4 via the
new atomic and subatomic principles.



Q: How do heavy objects rest on a table without
its molecules giving way, collapsing the table?

A: Science has no viable explanation for this today. This
mystery is similar to the mystery of the fridge magnet. Atomic
bonds are said to result from electromagnetic energy attracting
and holding atoms together. Yet, there is no denying that
tremendous ongoing energy expenditure is required to hold the
structure of a table together under the weight of a heavy
object. Where does this energy come from? How quickly does
this subatomic power source drain as it expends all this
energy? Today's science has no explanation for this everyday
occurrence, so such questions are never discussed.

==> This mystery and clear violation of the laws
of physics is explained in Chapter 4.



Q: Light slows as it passes through water or
glass, causing it to bend, but how can it
return to light-speed on its own once it exits?

A: This is impossible in today's science. No object in nature
can speed up of its own accord after being slowed. A bullet
doesn't spontaneously speed up after it is slowed by passing
through a wooden block, so how does a photon of light
mysteriously return to its original speed once it exits a glass
block? Also, continuously shining a light beam through a glass
block will heat it, creating the further mystery that the beam
actually loses energy as it passes through the glass, yet still
manages to accelerate to its original speed upon exit. Today's
science cannot explain this mysterious everyday occurrence.

Here is another related mystery: Bounce a light-beam between
two parallel mirrors at a slight angle so that the beam bounces
along the mirrors in a zig-zag pattern. How many bounces
will it take before the light beam loses energy and slows down
appreciably? 1000 bounces? 10,000? Of course, we know that
the light beam will never slow down no matter how many times
it bounces back and forth, despite the well-established fact that
light imparts a small momentum punch when it bounces off
objects (the principle behind solar sails). So, how does a single
beam of light impart countless momentum punches as it zig-
zags between the mirrors, yet still manage to emerge afterward
at the same unchanging speed of light? According to today's
science this is an impossible energy-for-free event.

==> These mysteries are solved in Chapter 5
via the new subatomic principle.



Q: Why is Einstein's Special Relativity Theory so
bizarre? Is our universe really that strange?

A: Einstein's Special Relativity Theory is all a mistake. Not
only can clear errors be found in all supporting experiments and
thought experiments, but even Einstein's own mathematical
support for his theory has clear fatal errors. One of the flaws is
so striking that two key lines were omitted from Einstein's
published Special Relativity derivation found in his own book,
Relativity: The Special and General Theory, published in 1961.
A closer look at this derivation shows a large leap of logic that
cannot be properly followed unless several missing lines are
filled in. There is only one mathematically viable way to fill in
these missing lines, which is shown below in simplified form:

Line 1: x = a + b -- note: speed-of-light term, c, has
dropped out entirely by this point

Line 2: x = a + b * (c2/ c2) -- the undefined symbol, c, is
artificially re-introduced

Now, let the symbol y stand for the expression (b * c2)

Line 3: x = a + y / c2 -- the symbol, c, is kept from cancelling
by hiding it within y in the numerator

The two missing lines, now added above as lines 1 &2, show
that the speed-of-light term drops out of the derivation entirely
and should never have appeared in the final equations. The
above improper mathematical operations are the only way to
add it back in, yet do not actually add the speed of light back
at all, but only the meaningless letter C from the alphabet. Any
letter from A to Z could have been chosen, showing how
meaningless and arbitrary it was to choose the letter C, which
was used to represent the speed of light earlier in the derivation
before it dropped out completely. See if you can spot this
yourself around lines 6 and 7 in Einstein’s own derivation.

Further, this is not the only fatal flaw in Einstein's derivation, but
one of many. Variables are arbitrarily assigned and reassigned
different values, then expressions from earlier in the derivation,
which were only valid prior to these arbitrary value changes, are
re-used as if they were still valid. In actuality, there is no viable
mathematical support for Einstein's Special Relativity Theory
at all. Don’t believe it? Again, look for yourself at the link above.
Einstein's reputation has grown to such heights and his
theories have become so deeply ingrained in our science today
that few scientists, if any, are willing to seriously investigate
this matter and see the errors that are in plain view.

==> The numerous flaws in Einstein's Derivation
are detailed in Chapter 5.



Q: If our universe isn't the bizarre place Einstein
claimed it is, why is there apparently so much
experimental support?
A: Examine the support for yourself and you will see it
vanish. Einstein was a creative thinker who made great
contributions to our science, but it is very dangerous to allow
his reputation to blind us to the clear logical flaws and highly
questionable claims in the apparent support for his theories.
Below is a famous thought experiment frequently used to
support Einstein’s Special Relativity theory, yet a little critical
analysis shows that it not only fails to support this theory, but
it actually disproves many of the core claims of both Special
Relativity and General Relativity theories. Don’t believe it?
Who could blame you, given the supposed mountain of
support for Einstein and his theories, so read on and judge
for yourself!

The Twin Paradox Thought Experiment

This famous thought experiment claims than an astronaut who
speeds off close to light speed would return to find his twin far
older than him, due to the mysteries of ‘time dilation’ in Special
Relativity theory, where time slows down the faster you go. Yet
this same theory shows this claim is impossible. Since all speed
is relative in Special Relativity, it is just as valid to consider the
twin on Earth to be speeding along while the astronaut sits in
space, making the astronaut the elder twin in the end. Two
completely different unresolvable outcomes occur simply based
on how we think about the situation, which is clearly impossible.

Many physicists will either volunteer this famous thought
experiment to demonstrate Special Relativity or will sit quietly
while others do so, but point out the obvious fatal flaw above
and they will immediately retract it, denying the flaw by pointing
out that the astronaut was the only one physically accelerating,
so there is only one way to look at the situation. Then they will
claim that this accelerated scenario actually puts it in the realm
of General Relativity, which verifies this time dilation claim
beautifully. At this point everyone usually agrees that it was
silly to question Einstein anyway, and the discussion ends.

But wait! Have you spotted the numerous problems already?
Problem #1: This thought experiment famously appears in
nearly all introductions to Special Relativity ever presented,
as evidence for the bizarre truths of this theory, yet it is always
retracted when challenged (and usually only when challenged).
Problem #2: The basis for the retraction is that a clear logical
flaw was demonstrated in the very concept of ‘time dilation’ in
Special Relativity – a core feature of the theory and an effect
often claimed to have been experimentally verified in support of
this theory. It is frequently claimed that satellite GPS systems
rely on corrections for ‘time dilation’ according to Special
Relativity, or that atomic clocks flown on airplanes have verified
’time dilation’ according to Special Relativity. So the retraction
of this famous Special Relativity thought experiment in favor of
General Relativity, is no small detail, wiping out enormous
theoretical and experimental pillars of support for Special
Relativity, in one fell swoop. Yet this fact just sails right past as
the focus is nonchalantly switched to General Relativity.
Problem #3: As the discussion usually ends once the expert
claims that General Relativity solves the problem, there is often
no burden of proof on the expert to back up even this claim. It is
usually sufficient to reference this even less understood theory
by our greatest known scientist in order to save face even if the
’expert’ actually knows little or nothing about General Relativity.
Problem #4: General Relativity doesn’t solve this problem
either! A core concept of General Relativity is that it is
fundamentally impossible to distinguish the effect of gravity on
Earth from that of accelerating through space at the rate of 1g.
This is known as the Principle of Equivalence. So, even
according to General Relativity, the astronaut could accelerate
to even 99% of light speed and travel for as long as he wished,
and upon return to Earth there would be no mysterious ‘time
dilation’ effects whatsoever; his twin would be the same age as
him. That is according to both Special Relativity and General
Relativity – no ‘relativistic time dilation’, no ‘relativistic mass
increase’, and no ‘relativistic length contraction’. Further, as
stated earlier above, General Relativity fails so completely to
explain the motion of stars in galaxies that concepts as wild as
mysterious ‘Dark Matter’ filling the universe must be invented to
try to retain the theory. So, what exactly is going on with all the
claims about Einstein’s Relativity Theories by our scientists?

==> This apparent paradox and "proof" of Special
Relativity is clearly debunked in Chapter 5.




Q: Are there really such elementary problems
even with General Relativity?

A: Yes, those mentioned above and more. Consider the
central concept of General Relativity itself -- 'warped
space-time'. We have all seen the graphic of a rubber sheet
("space-time") deformed by a heavy sphere (the sun), with
the planets "following the warp". There are, of course, many
serious problems with this notion (neither actual empty space
nor proposed "space-time" are physically even remotely like
a 2-D rubber sheet, gravity must mysteriously pre-exist to
pull the sphere down to cause the warping that is said to
cause gravity, what does it even mean to pull the sphere
"down" into the "sheet" once this simplified analogy is
extended by another dimension to actual 3-D space or
4-D "space-time", etc.) But even allowing this to be a mere
visual aid just to capture the imagination, there remains a
further glaring problem. Such a "space-time grid" permeating
the universe is an absolute universal reference grid no
different than the flawed ether theory it replaced over this
very issue. This leaves it as yet another theory of absolutes
and not one of relativity at all -- according to "General
Relativity", all motion is in reference to a fixed, absolute
'space-time' grid permeating the universe.

So General Relativity's basic definition completely undoes its
very reason for existence, just as shown earlier with Special
Relativity. Yet, despite the many serious conceptual flaws
at the very core of both relativity theories, such discussions
are not even open for sincere consideration in our educational
system or science media. Einstein's reputation has been
elevated to such god-like heights over the years that to
sincerely point out even such clear flaws in plain view is
considered unthinkable heresy by many who see themselves
as members of the scientific community.

Perhaps now, more than ever, we need to heed this quote:
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy
of truth" -- Albert Einstein



Q: Since particles never exceed light-speed in
accelerators, doesn't this prove Einstein right?

A: No, this simply reveals the true nature of electric and
magnetic fields. These experiments claim that tiny subatomic
particles gain so much mass near light speed that they are
impossible to accelerate any further, even if the entire power
output of a city were put to the task. Sound far-fetched? Yes,
of course it is! The only reason particles can't be accelerated
past light speed is because that is the limit of the method used
to accelerate the particles. If the electric or magnetic fields
used for accelerating particles have an inherent speed-of-light
acceleration limit themselves then more energy will only
make each push more solid, but will never accelerate particles
beyond this built-in speed limit of the machine itself. But
today's scientists don't truly understand the nature of electricity
or magnetism -- if they did they would be able to explain how
magnets cling endlessly to refrigerators.
==> The true nature of electricity & magnetism
is explained in Ch. 5, showing good reason
why particle accelerators have a built-in
light-speed limit, debunking this apparent
evidence for Special Relativity Theory.



Q: What about atomic clocks flown on jets, which
seem to show Einstein's Time Dilation Effect?

A: Even Einstein’s own theory shows this is impossible!
As shown above in the Twin Paradox explanation, Einstein's
Special Relativity Theory has a logical flaw, initially appearing
to predict such effects, but a closer examination shows that
they should not occur. We could consider either the airplane
or the Earth below to be in motion since everything is relative,
giving totally opposite results. So, even according to Einstein's
own theory there should be no absolute time difference when
an atomic clock is flown on a jet. This is a theory that clearly
displays its own futility, which should be expected from any
theory whose basic mathematical support is propped up by
clear errors and improper hidden mathematical operations.

So why do we hear reports of success in these atomic clock
experiments? Since we have no rational or scientific reason to
expect such effects, it stands to reason that these reports are
either erroneous or they reflect other effects such as turbulence
or acceleration effects on the plane and instruments. Note that
although it is commonly stated that atomic clocks operate by
reading the inner oscillations of individual atoms, in actuality
they are very cumbersome, delicate instruments that operate
on the external properties of clouds of atoms as they are
accelerated and irradiated by various fields. One could imagine
many ways in which the delicate machinery of an atomic clock
might be affected by a variety of environmental influences that
might occur on an airplane flight. Again, Einstein's own relativity
theory states that we could look at the situation from either
perspective -- a moving atomic clock on a jet or a stationary
clock and jet as the Earth moves instead -- invalidating any
claims that one absolute result was experimentally observed.



Q: Isn't there still further evidence that appears
to support Special Relativity Theory though?

A: Yes there are still further lab experiments and thought
experiments that are commonly touted as proof, each of which
can be readily shown to either have clear logical flaws or
simple commonsense explanations other than "time dilation",
"relativistic mass increase", or "space-time contraction".
==> Try your own hand at this or turn to
Chapter 5 for the answers.



Q: Did it really all begin with a "Big Bang" where
all the matter in the universe was compressed
to a space smaller than an atom?

A: Of course not. Today’s belief in the Big Bang / Expanding
Universe theories has even led today’s astronomers to claim
that some type of mysterious antigravity force is pushing the
galaxies apart -- faster and faster the more distant they are.
Such a force has never been observed in any experiment or
explained by any scientific theory, and it even violates our most
cherished laws of physics. Where does this mysterious force
come from and how is its ever-accelerating effect powered?
Even the term "Big Bang" first arose as a disparaging reference
to this theory from the noted astronomer Fred Hoyle.

The only reason this concept ever arose is because light from
distant galaxies is Red-Shifted -- i.e. it arrives with its colors
shifted toward the low end of the visible spectrum where red
light resides. It was assumed that this was the same as the
Doppler Effect for sound, which describes the shift to lower
frequencies in sound waves from objects that are speeding
away. However, sound waves are completely different from
light. Sound is not pure "sound energy" but compression waves
within an atmosphere of air molecules, while light is considered
to be a very strange form of pure energy, full of "quantum-
mechanical" mysteries and paradoxes. Not only is there no
clear scientific reason to link the Doppler Effect of sound with
the Red Shift of light, but it is well known that light is easily red
shifted by simply passing it through gases or plastics. The
Compton Effect is a very well known cause for shifts in light
frequency, and has nothing to do with motion of the light source.
And as any astronomer knows, distant starlight passes through
billions of light-years of various gases, plasmas, and fields
before arriving at our telescopes. Is it any surprise that the
further away a galaxy is, the more Red-Shifted its light?

==> The Big Bang Theory myth is debunked
further in Chapter 6.



Q: OK, so scientists are still struggling to even
explain gravity, but isn’t this just academic?
Doesn't today's science still function fine?

A: Absolutely not! As just mentioned, we have no explanation
for the power source for gravity, we have numerous theories
of gravity in our science right now (Newton’s, Einstein’s,
Quantum Gravity, MOND, TeVeS, etc.), and all these theories
have impossible physical implications that overturn everything
we know about matter and energy, violate our laws of physics
or simply fall apart upon serious critical inspection. The recent
"Dark Matter" and "Dark Energy" inventions are prime
examples. This is no small failure of our current science!

==> The new description of gravity in Ch. 2
shows that our galaxy doesn't contain billions
of "gravity-generating stars", but billions of
stars and solar systems that exhibit a very
different gravitational phenomenon, likely
resolving this great mystery in our science.



Q: It is often stated that Quantum Mechanics
is one of the most accurate and elegant
theories in science. Is this correct?

A: Given our lack of understanding of so much in nature today,
we have no choice but to invent theories and refine -- or even
hammer -- them into experimental agreement. There is no doubt
that something very different occurs within the atom (and in the
phenomenon known as energy today), and it shouldn't be
surprising that we are resourceful enough to invent some sort
of explanation, but we have mistaken models for reality.
Quantum Mechanics is merely a very bizarre, mysterious
mathematical model that has undergone tremendous work by
generations of scientists straining for experimental agreement.
As a result, it makes all manner of counterintuitive, bizarre
claims about our world, when in actuality ours is a very simple,
commonsense world when seen from the right perspective.

To quote from the article "Was Einstein Right?" by staff writer
and editor George Musser, Scientific American, Sept 2004:

"As Einstein was among the first to realize, quantum
mechanics, too, is incomplete. It offers no reason for why
individual physical events happen, provides no way to get
at objects' intrinsic properties and has no compelling
conceptual foundations."

And from "The Master's Mistakes" by Karen Wright,
Discover magazine, Sept 2004:

"In the 1920s quantum mechanics became the rage, and
it advanced by leaps and bounds, thanks in large part to
Einstein's persistent efforts to discredit it."

==> Quantum Mechanics is debunked, and the
subatomic realm properly explained in Ch. 5



Q: Is light really sometimes a wave and
sometimes a particle (the photon)?

A: The true nature of light has been hotly debated for centuries.
Today's science states light is mysteriously both a wave and a
particle, depending on the detection method. This bizarre
belief even leads to the conclusion that detecting starlight as
either a wave or a particle then instantly reaches back billions
of years in space and time to determine the corresponding form
in which the light was originally transmitted. Such impossible
time travel beliefs show just how lost today's science is due to
its blind belief in quantum-mechanical theory as the true
physical description of nature.

In fact, it is very easy to debunk even our simplest beliefs about
light today. For example, it is currently believed light-waves
somehow "cancel" in "destructive interference" when they meet
out of phase so that the peaks of one wave coincide with the
valleys of another. Yet, a simple experiment crossing 2 light-
beams from common laser pointers shows that it is impossible
for light to vanish into thin air simply because 2 beams are mis-
aligned (out of phase). In fact, it is a violation of the Law Of
Conservation Of Energy to even expect this to occur. Light is
not a mysterious quantum-mechanical wave-particle entity, but
something much simpler to understand.

==> The true nature of light is finally exposed in
Ch. 5 since the new subatomic principle from
from Ch. 4 also relates to energy of all types.



Q: But don't the famous Double-Slit experiments
verify both the wave theory of light and its
bizarre quantum-mechanical particle nature?

A: No. In fact, quite the opposite. For generations this
erroneous belief has simply been repeated without thinking
it through. The wavelike interference pattern in this experiment
is always equated to water waves interfering. But water waves
are not "waves of pure water energy" in the same manner that
we think of waves of light energy; they are a wavelike group
behavior of countless particles (water molecules). Interference
patterns between water waves are the result of interaction
between groups of particles, not "waves of pure water energy".

So, why is this analogy used as proof that a similar interference
pattern between light-beams is an interaction between "waves
of pure light energy"? Simply because our instructors merely
accept and repeat what they’ve been told, mentally locking
themselves and us into the flawed science legacy that we have
inherited. In actuality though, the Double Slit experiment is
clear evidence for an interaction between groups of countless
particles of light, just as the water-wave analogy would imply.

But what is meant by "particles of light"? This is not a reference
to today's even more mysterious quantum-mechanical photons,
but something much simpler that arises from the same sub-
atomic principle that runs throughout The Final Theory. Also,
this new perspective solves the mystery of why an interference
pattern appears even when individual light photons are shot one
by one through the slits. The answer is really quite simple and
straightforward, removing all the mysterious and bizarre
"quantum-mechanical" myths we are taught today.

Further, with the new understanding that this experiment shows
group particle interaction and not individual energy wave
interference, it is now easy to see why experiments with beams
of electrons also show a similar interference pattern. Far from
proof that even matter (electrons) has a bizarre wave-particle
dual nature (as Quantum Mechanics states today), this merely
shows straightforward particle interaction, just as we would
expect from electrons. But what does this all mean?

==> This is all clearly explained in Ch. 5. Not only
is the true nature of light finally explained,
but a definitive end is finally brought to the
bizarre theory of Quantum Mechanics.



Q: Where does Einstein's famous E = mc2
equation come from, why does this simple
equation apply to the atom bomb, and how is
it that matter converts into pure energy?

A: This equation has been largely misunderstood and
misrepresented. It is often shown in complex mathematical
derivations and is said to literally describe matter mysteriously
converting into energy in an atom-bomb explosion -- a process
that is completely unexplained even today. But, in actuality,
this equation is extremely easy to derive in only a few lines of
simple math, and does not truly describe a process as
mysterious as a transformation of "matter into energy".

For starters, consider that the classic kinetic energy equation,
K.E. = ½mv2, is almost identical to Einstein's equation. In fact,
it only differs by the factor-of-two term. That is, if we write
the kinetic energy of an object traveling at light speed, the
classic kinetic energy equation would be E = ½mc2. This is
precisely Einstein's equation, only divided by two. So, why are
these two equations so similar, and what does this really tell us
about the nature of light, energy, and the atomic bomb? Here's
a further hint in a simple four-line derivation that can easily be
arrived at for Einstein's equation, based on well-known
equations for the momentum of light:

p = E/c -- momentum of light, p, equals its energy
content divided by its speed

p = mc -- momentum of light, stated in terms of its
classical momentum, mass x speed

E/c = mc -- equating the two momentum terms in
the two lines above

E = mc2 -- rearranging the above line gives
Einstein’s famous equation

==> For the full truth about this equation and
what it really says about light, energy, and
the atomic bomb see Chapter 6.



Q: Science says protons are positively charged
and tightly clustered in the nucleus, but like-
charges would strongly repel in such close
proximity. Why doesn’t the nucleus fly apart?

A: This mystery has no true answer in today's science.
Scientists used to scratch their heads over this issue decades
ago -- until they simply decided the answer must be that some
type of mysterious attracting force must appear for some
unexplained reason between protons when they are very close,
counteracting their mutual repulsion. This mysterious new
attracting force is called the Strong Nuclear Force, and is now
taught as one of the four fundamental forces of nature in today’s
science. Yet, this is clearly just bad science -- a closer look
shows many serious flaws with this entire picture.

First, consider the endless repelling electric charge force that
tirelessly pushes the positively charged protons apart. Where is
the power source behind this endless repulsion, and how can it
be that this mysterious power source is never drained or even
diminished in the slightest? Benjamin Franklin invented this
Electric Charge Theory to explain why charged objects repel or
cling to each other, but his theory overlooked the fact that this
concept violates our most basic laws of physics. Objects or
particles should not be able to endlessly attract or repel each
other, and without even a power source in sight. This is the
first problem with positively charged protons in the nucleus, and
also with the concept of negatively charged electrons held in
orbit about the nucleus by an endless unknown power source.

Secondly, this clearly flawed concept in our science legacy was
merely glossed over and patched with yet another scientifically
unexplained force -- the Strong Nuclear Force. Now we have
two scientifically unexplained forces behind the stability of the
atom (the Electromagnetic Force between charged particles
and the Strong Nuclear Force), both acting endlessly and with
no known power source.

==> Electric Charge is re-explained in Ch. 4
according to the new subatomic principle,
explaining atomic structure and showing
the Strong Nuclear Force to be a completely
unnecessary invention.



Q: So does this mean our entire atomic theory is
wrong -- both the old "solar system" atomic
model and today’s quantum-mechanical one?

A: Yes, of course it does. Scientifically impossible theories
that violate our common sense and our fundamental laws of
physics are the hallmark of bad science and do not belong in
our scientific beliefs. There is nothing wrong with creating
useful working models to help us to think about our world while
we continue searching, but our legacy of working models has
been mistaken for true knowledge and understanding.

Many of today’s scientists now take Newton’s working model of
gravity literally, as if there were truly an endless gravitational
force emanating from the atom. Others literally believe in
Einstein's even more mysterious gravitational model of the atom
somehow warping a 4-dimensional realm around it. We are also
taught to literally accept models of the inner atom in which
endless, completely unexplained electromagnetic and strong
nuclear forces are at work, now said to act according to bizarre
"quantum-mechanical" laws. Further, magnetic materials such
as iron are said to have atoms that possess inherent
magnetism -- magnetic energy that operates endlessly and
with no known power source, giving us permanent magnets.

Taken together, the atom is said to expend endless internal
strong nuclear force energy, endless internal electromagnetic
energy, endless external electromagnetic energy (in the bonds
between atoms), endless external gravitational energy and
endless external magnetic energy -- all with no known power
source driving these varied forces. This state of affairs is
merely accepted as proper science today.

==> The atom is completely re-explained in
Ch. 4, removing all of today's scientifically
impossible beliefs about the atom.



Q: A major feature of the anticipated Theory Of
Everything is that it finally shows where our
natural constants originate vs. just measuring
them today. Does The Final Theory do this?

A: Yes indeed! At the end of Chapter 3 the new gravity theory
is compared with Newton’s at the most fundamental level -- the
simplest atom in nature: the Hydrogen atom. The theoretical
gravitational force of this single atom according to Newton
is calculated, with all values filled in except Newton’s
gravitational constant, G . Then this is mathematically equated
with the gravity of this atom using the new equation of gravity
according to the new theory, leaving only Newton’s gravitational
constant as an unknown. Solving the equation gives precisely
the known measured value for Newton’s gravitational constant --
including even the correct units.

==> This is the first time a natural constant has
ever been arrived at by pure calculation
according to any theory.



Q: If this is truly the final theory, shouldn’t
it say something about time as well?

A: Yes it should, and it does. The concept of time in today's
science is more science-fiction than science. Our scientific
beliefs about time, based on Einstein’s Special Relativity
Theory, state that time varies with relative speed, meaning that
the laws of chemistry and physics would have to vary between
all moons and planets, which all differ in relative speed. A
growing number of scientists even believe time travel is
possible via some sort of cosmic-sized, wormhole-based time
machines powered by unfathomable amounts of "negative
energy". All manner of fanciful beliefs surround the concept of
time in today’s science.

But time is actually very easily understood, with none of the
bizarre features of today’s science. For example, although
we commonly think of time as driving events in our world, it is
purely energy that drives everything. Take the batteries out of a
clock and it stops, regardless of any notion of time. But what is
energy and how does it relate to time? According to our laws of
physics energy can change form but can never be destroyed,
which means it always remains active and available without
ever tiring. But what drives the tireless availability and endless
activity of energy? Today’s understanding of energy differs little
from stories of magic -- a mysterious, ethereal, active entity
that we have learned to control via various devices. We really
know little more about the true nature of energy when we stop
to think about it. But, all forms of energy are easily understood
in clear physical terms from the new perspective in The Final
Theory, giving a powerful new understanding of the concepts
of both energy and time that hold such mystery for us today.


Q: Lots of good points but if even our most basic
science is so full of holes why do scientists
simply ignore this and forge ahead inventing
more bizarre new theories to add to the fray?

A: What else can they do? No doubt they would gladly fix all
these glaring problems if they had the proper understanding,
but they don’t. They are our science authority today and so are
unwilling to admit that all they really know is what they've
been told -- a centuries-old legacy of scientifically impossible
beliefs from a much simpler time (electrons and galaxies have
been known for barely a century). Since our scientists still
lack a true understanding of our universe they have little choice
but to staunchly defend the science legacy they have inherited,
continuing to work within this flawed framework. These working
models have served us well during the past few centuries of our
scientific infancy, but we are now sophisticated enough that
we cannot pretend they literally describe our world anymore.



Q: So, what can be done about this situation?

A: Read The Final Theory and spread the word! Until now it
has been pointless to challenge the accepted science paradigm
(although some have tried) since no one had arrived at the
understanding that truly explains our world. The Final Theory
finally gives this knowledge and understanding to the public,
which, as history has shown time and time again, is where all
revolutions must begin. Don’t wait for today’s science
authorities to admit how little they truly know and embrace a
theory that shows everything they profess is wrong -- it may
be a very long wait! Read The Final Theory, reclaim your
birthright to truly understand your universe in your lifetime, and
be part of the coming scientific revolution!


Q: If The Final Theory is the revolutionary Theory
Of Everything, why isn't it headline news? Why
haven't I heard of it? Why isn't it in stores?

A: You have heard of it -- this is your notification. The book
is newly published, promotion is just starting and you are one of
the first to discover it. As such, it hasn't become headline
news .. yet. Everything needs a beginning, even the Theory Of
Everything. Unfortunately, many misguided attempts at this
theory have already been made. This shows that many people
know something is wrong with our science -- so much so that
they are trying desperately to fix it themselves -- but many of
these enthusiasts have ultimately done more harm than good
by forcefully pushing their pet theories in the face of clear flaws.
For better or worse, The Final Theory has arrived in the midst
of this rather tarnished environment, making it difficult for the
scientific community or the press to give it due consideration.

The Final Theory isn't in bookstores at the moment because it
is published by a Print-On-Demand publisher, which only prints
and ships copies as they are ordered. P.O.D publishers do
not print thousands of copies up front and distribute them to
bookstores. Although P.O.D. is fast becoming a popular
publication method, and the quality and appearance of the
books are identical to those on the shelves, most book
reviewers and columnists are not accustomed to this method
and will not consider P.O.D. titles for review.

Due to these realities, The Final Theory won't appear widely in
the media, the scientific press, or the corner bookstore for the
moment. It is up to individual seekers to order it and read it for
themselves. As such, this FAQ was created to give as much
information as possible to potential readers, considering that it
is not possible to flip through the book before purchasing.



Q: If this really is the Theory Of Everything and
the answers are so simple, why not just state
what this new theory says here?

A: Although the answers are indeed solid and simple, very
rational and commonsense, and completely developed in the
book, they do still represent a completely different perspective
on all of our science and experience; you will never view even
falling objects the same way again after reading this book!
Such a radical new perspective on our universe requires a
proper context and solid foundation. Otherwise many questions
come to mind .. if that is so, then what about this? And how
does it explain that? Etc. Rest assured that all questions are
fully addressed and all points clearly explained in the book, but
justice couldn't be done to this new theory in any less than
the 400+ pages it contains -- there would be too many doubts
and questions otherwise. The theory itself is not complicated,
but it must be solidly applied to every aspect of our science
and our personal experience, from Newtonian gravity to
quantum mechanics and everything in between. This FAQ
clearly shows many major flaws in our current science -- many
of which are not even currently recognized today -- and goes as
far as possible and reasonable to show that the author knows
what he is talking about and that The Final Theory has the
answers. The rest is up to you!

Now do check out how many of these concepts or shud I say "unexplained phenomena" and "flawed concepts" we use as a base to "rationlize" ourselves further pretending to be self-righteous logic seekers!! pathetic!!




Next......
Spiritual atheism.
n the end, I guess I'm grateful to Richard Dawkins for the Out Campaign, primarily because it has made me think about the whole issue of atheism, god, and religion much more carefully—and I wouldn't have thought that was possible.

Today, in particular, as I contemplate putting his Scarlett A on my site, I find myself thinking about what atheism actually means, and what it doesn't mean. It's much more complicated than I had realized.

Take the simplest, bare-bones, definition:

An atheist is a person who does not believe in God.

It seems simple enough, but then one has to ask what the word "God" actually means.

The standard concept of God in our culture was forged over the last two thousand years or so, primarily in the fires of ancient Greek philosophy, medieval culture, and the theology of the Roman Catholic Church. Few protestants, and fewer very conservative protestants realize just how much of what they believe was invented by Roman Catholics, long after Jesus, Paul, and the Early Church Fathers were dead.

The result is an authoritarian creature, based on the model of a king, quasi-human, quasi-superman, invisible, in charge of the whole universe but intimately concerned with the tiniest detail of everyone's daily life, who requires not only absolute obedience but also obeisance, is absolutely good, but thinks that eternal punishment is appropriate for temporal misdemeanors—the chief of which is, in most cases, not believing in his existence when he refuses to give us any solid evidence: in fact, punishment for behaving rationally.

No. I don't believe in that God. In fact, I would argue that that God is a contradiction in terms—that the concept disproves itself.

Many Christians will read that last sentence as a rejection of God—that is, as a rejection of a person. It is not. It's the rejection of an idea. I am not standing before the creator of the universe, and screaming "I don't believe in you." I am standing before a bunch of theologians, and saying "I think you got it wrong."

To paraphrase the advocates of Intelligent Design: God is just a theory. It's a theory that I think is mistaken. The reason I think it's mistaken is that (unlike, say, radio theory or the theory of evolution, or quantum electro-dynamics) there is no real evidence for it.

I do, however, with Douglas Adams, tend to believe that there are artificial gods. To put it another way, there are many religious people who see the god-idea, not as a description of the physical world, but as a cultural and personal tool, an abstraction about their community which enables them to practice their faith. You will be unlikely to find such people bombing either trade centers or abortion clinics. And you will be unlikely to find them trying to force their beliefs on others.

Many atheists would claim that all religion is bad. I doubt this, in both senses. That is, I doubt that there are no good religions—I've named a few I like on this blog—and I doubt that there is any religion that has no good in it. This seems absurd. Why would it last?

We are at a point in history when part of the world is coming to understand that certain traditional ideas—like the traditional theory of god—were mistaken. We are also coming to understand that certain institutions—like traditional religion—are flawed. But it would be a grave mistake to throw the baby out with the bathwater. We are nowhere near understanding the big picture—how humans form communities, how those communities can go wrong, how to even know what it means for a community to go wrong for sure. There's room for a little humility.

Many atheist are also materialists. They claim that the material world is all that exists. I can only go so far down that road.

First, some distinctions. One can reject the god-theory without rejecting the supernatural. I happen to reject both, but they are not the same. It is possible to not believe in a god, and still believe in ghosts, fairies, or Santa. there's no necessary connection.

Likewise, one can reject god-theory and the supernatural without rejecting the spiritual. This is where I part company with many other atheists. And I do it on the same basis that I part company with traditional religion—evidence.

The traditional Christian view is that our conscious experience is evidence of a soul—a "me" that lives inside my body, peers through my eyes, tastes with my tongue, but in the end is separate from my physical body, can go to heaven when I die while that body stays here on earth, can have experiences which don't involve the body, such as direct experience of God, and can be put into a new body when Jesus returns.

Most atheists reject this idea—obviously the parts about heaven, God, and the return of Jesus, but more fundamentally the idea that there is a soul, separate from the physical body. They're probably right about this. All the evidence of brain research seems to point to thought, emotion, and sensation as intimately connected to the structures and functions of the body: particularly of the brain. This seems on the face of it to call the idea of an independent soul into question. When an electrode stimulation in this part of the brain can predictable cause a person to feel a certain emotion or think a certain thought, there seems to be little need for some supernatural entity to do the feeling and thinking.

But many atheists go beyond this point, and either deny the existence of conscious experience altogether, claim it is merely an illusion, or simply ignore the issue as trivial and not worthy of examination. I think they are mistaken.

The reason I think they are mistaken is the evidence of conscious experience itself. It is my only connection to the "outside" world. I would know nothing of science, of physical reality, of atheists, if it weren't for my conscious experience. Yet, the physical descriptions of brain activity—however well they correlate—don't come remotely close to describing those experiences, let alone explaining them.

My own current theory—held lightly, and open to change—is that the universe-as-described-by-science-so-far has another, internal side, which is the universe-as-experienced-from-within. There is a profound difference between everything you could learn about me—or I, about you—from exterior, physical, examination, and the experience of being me. And it is a difference of kind. I don't think there's an immaterial soul haunting my body, but I do think there's a spiritual side to the material world. Pain is a reality, even though you will never find one when dissecting a brain. I'm only staking the position out, at the moment, not defending it, because I am well aware just how strong the full-going materialists' defenses are on this point.

But I will say where I think my atheist friends are making their mistake.

This inner life, the realm of consciousness as experienced, the spiritual realm if you will, is part of the territory that had been staked out by Christianity, and by religion in general. In the current political climate, there is a political war on—a struggle for control of the culture that was initiated by extremist religion. Atheists have, quite rightly, joined the political fray—fighting to stop religion from dictating that lies be taught in science classes, or that teachers be allowed to force children to pray in schools.

But it is a mistake to allow a political battle to define ones position on an issue of science or philosophy. I strongly suspect that my extreme materialist friends find it difficult to acknowledge the spiritual side of the world because it feels like a capitulation to religion, or to a religious world-view. It was a materialist approach, focused on externals, that helped them to forge an alternative functional worldview, so naturally they would like that approach to cover everything.

I think they are mistaken. I think that they are denying the one part of reality we can be most certain exists, and, moreover, I think that an unwillingness to examine it will always make them sound a little foolish to the common person.

So, if pressed, I would call myself a spiritual atheist. I don't think the god-theory stands up. I don't believe in a separate, supernatural or non-physical realm. But on the other hand, I'm quite sure there is more to the world than can be viewed through a microscope. The physical world has an inside as well as an outside, and it's worthwhile trying to map it, and correlate it with what we know of the exterior.

When I put the A up on my site, that is what it will mean.
Kids, if u r having a hard time understanding how classifications can be, you have a priceless example here n more if u research well!! A hardcore science believer trying to logic on the basis of "unexplained/flawed stuff"?? Science is not for chumps sir but for broadminded souls who can atleast "believe in what they see/observe/experience" and found to be holding true!! Your unfathomable trust in flawed modern science is really admirable!! :)
 

legolas

Padawan
Re: ***science Or God?***

But on the other hand u have "modern medicine and science" which doesn't hold importance to factors like state of mind, patient's living conditions and environment and other factors.
I am pretty sure no one is interested in reading tons of paragraphs you have provided from various sites and would like to stay ground on their understanding so far and not just change for the sake of this conversation. However, as I understand, the argument with you is not "Science Vs God", instead, it is "morality of Science Vs Peace in Spiritualism" or of the kind.
Science is still researching on subjects like "homeopathy", "intuition" etc. And here we have cases that outwardly and blatantly 'reject' it!! Now what do u call that?
Ok, let me tell my views on Homeopathy. Its not different from what others might have mentioned here, or for that matter what you yourself have mentioned that science doesn't accept it as Science. How difficult is it to accept that it is not Science as it seeks evidence??
1) Homeopathy is stupid. Yes. Because the principle is that the more you dilute a substance, the more it becomes stronger is the principle of homeopathy. Now, even if you think without science brain, you can not accept this.
2) A Science-related-medicine or allopathy takes 20 years of research minimum before the drug formula is formulated, researched, tested with real and placebos for side effects for potential cure or phantom effects of the drugs before it comes to the market. Considering the amount of funding it has to undergo for 20+ years for the drug to reach the market with safe (including the monitored side effects) measures, I am happy to pay whatever is the rate for science based medicine which claims and proves how the drug acts.
3) Regarding the claim on intuition, I am sorry to tell you, you are wrong. Science does not disregard it. Researches are still going on to identify the part of brain which tells us how we got our intuition and how primates still have the ability to over perform us in a simple memory test. A BBC study showed primates have better memory than us. The terms you are using are superficial. Intuition means "pure or untaught", "a keen insight". What do you want to explain or conceptualize about this here?? Science tries to identify the part of brain associated for a person's keen acumen, people with great observational powers... And at a later stage may be to "Measure" one's intuition. I am in the neuroscience department myself.
4) Homeopathy if it is as you claim, why do you think couldn't get an appreciation in convincing people that even it doesnt have proof, its able to cure say measles or rabies or whatever better than allopathy and start advertising?? There are big centres in the UK, the US and in India and in many other places and they definitely have funds.
Why is it that the homeopathist himself is not interested in finding a proof for its working. Wouldn't it be a natural thinking of a curious human to know the reason for its "claimed excellence"?? I saw a documentary by "Richard Dawkins" in which an homeopathist (famous one) gives NaCl as medicine (of course a million times diluted) for knee-pain to a patient. When Dawkins asked how do you think common salt could cure this, the doctor replies "I dont know". How dumb can you be to rely on such a person?? If homeopathy is really a science and science is a villain to reject it, then tell me this, Why is there no ground-breaking research or proofs in homeopathy which is awarded a Nobel Prize??? What is it they claim then?
U need more insight of the spiritual world to know more about it and until and unless u have "experienced" it urself, how can u even question it or deny it??
People who claim to have schizophrenia speak with people, think of characters which doesn't exist in reality and are even sometimes threat to society and are put in mental asylums when they are found harmful. Now why wouldn't I argue saying that I have not experienced it and so I don't know if its true or God is communicating with him or he is in his own spiritual world, he has attained a stage where he can see things?? There is a limit to using the term "because you can experience it, you can not deny it".
U see there is no limit to the twisted logic
There is no term as Twisted Logic. Its an oxymoron which you have used. When there is logic to something, it doesnt matter if its twisted or not. coz, there is LOGIC to it!!
I don't argue Science only holds answers. But certainly,
Homeopathy, astrology (motion of planets and 2 non-planets control your damn life without free-will which again denies God's free-will concept, but that is entirely different topic), religion, and the ton's of issues it brings along with war, superstitions, meditation involving exploring your 7 chakras or seeing God or path towards God are pure crap.

However, meditation as a means of relieving one's tension or alleviating pain or destressing oneself is a better art. Exploiting it and believing in the exploitation is a magic trick where you just don't know its magic.

In toto, your arguments are similar to Osho who is an atheist and believes in meditation, but his arguments were only to attain peace with yourself and get rid of the masks put by society on the basis of religion. You have confused a lot with his principles if you were indeed motivated by him. If not, I urge you to listen to Osho's lectures.

I am sorry I did not read the 5 page notes you have posted occasionally as your replies. I am least interested in reading it and arguing due to lack of time. However, I would encourage and appreciate it if you could gist the discrepancy you find and post it here instead of pasting the whole content of a site.
However, I just read through the first question regarding gravity and I understand what you are trying to say here. But my point is,
Its very well known that Science is unable to answer "why?" and answers "what?". For example, as you noted out gravity, its measured for earth or moon or whatever and what is gravity can be explained as some sort of force (see wikipedia definition). But why gravity is there?? there are only theories and no proofs or evidences to back those theories completely. But, there is a great respect to what Science does in accepting its inability to answer it, however, continue to ask the question and get better answers than to acknowledge the question with blunt replies such as,
"there is no why in a God-designed world"
"ask not why, ask who you are"
"God designed it that way"
"God is playing games with us"
"We are all pawns in the game"
or such CRAP.
 
Last edited:

karnivore

in your face..
Re: ***science Or God?***

One danger of "googling" and blindly copy/ pasting the content without actually going through it and doing a proper research, is that, one runs the risk of being ridiculed. But i will stay away from that, although, i would have expected one to at least, look around, just a little bit.

The first quote is from "The Final Theory: Rethinking Our Scientific Legacy" by Mark McCutcheon. The author is a certifiable lunatic of his only kind. And the book is equally, a work of fiction. Each and every of his "infantile" proposition has been quite convincingly rebutted, by several, science students (forget the pros). I will leave the job of finding these rebuttals to the poster himself. There are hundreds of science forums where one will find how this book has been ridiculed.

But generally speaking, if our science was so flawed, how come we can predict, lunar cycles, meteorite orbits and other cosmological phenomenon with the accuracy of milliseconds. How come we can, to the accuracy of millimeter, place a satellite in orbit, thousands of miles away from earth. Oh i guess, we just get lucky every time. That must be it. Isn't it.

As with the second quote, i don't even feel bothered to reply. Referencing a blog, where any Tom, Dick and Harry can say anything, is a sign of infantile reasoning. Russell, Darwin, Dawkins, Hume etc. can go to hell. Why ?? Because some Tom or Dick or Harry says so. Got to kidding me.

What baffles me the most is that the poster "urges" all of us to be "independent". But, everytime, he has to prove a point, he doesn't hesitate to reference any site that suits his taste. Hmmmm...... May be its time for him to start reading what he types.

BTW, K is still waiting for some answers raised in the alternative version of the story.
 

sreevirus

Certified Nutz
Re: ***science Or God?***

@ mediator... sorry I couldn't reply here earlier (I have been busy for the last two days, and I have to prepare for an exam too), but I guess, some of the stuff that I would've replied, have been posted here by others... so moving on...

I went through that site, did some research on Mark McCutcheon, and here are some things for you to read (since you incite us to read those sites that your provide, I request you to go through some of these yourself, also saving you the effort as asked by karnivore):

*www.dpedtech.com/FTreview.pdf

And you could go through some of these forums too...
*www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=2972
*www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=37245.html
*forums.hypography.com/books-movies-games/797-final-theory.html
*www.bautforum.com/against-mainstream/23343-book-final-theory.html

You should note that the beauty of science lies in the fact that it never pretends or make pretentious statements if it does not have an answer. If it is not known today, then science actually encourages you to look for answers, it never says that you should be satisfied by half-baked assumptions or statements or lies and be pleased with it.


And just for you to know, in science, the burden of proof lies on the one making a statement or theory, not on the observers. So for all sorts of alternative medicines and similar things, for them to be accepted by science, their practitioners should take concrete efforts to prove their validity and existence scientifically, instead of urging their followers to believe them unconditionally.
 

mediator

Technomancer
Re: ***science Or God?***

@legolas I think I can have nice discussion with u.
legolas said:
I am pretty sure no one is interested in reading tons of paragraphs you have provided from various sites and would like to stay ground on their understanding so far and not just change for the sake of this conversation. However, as I understand, the argument with you is not "Science Vs God", instead, it is "morality of Science Vs Peace in Spiritualism" or of the kind.
Nope the argument is not that either and I'm certinaly not forcing anyone to read the "tons of paragraph", but wud have been nice if u did!!


1) Homeopathy is stupid. Yes. Because the principle is that the more you dilute a substance, the more it becomes stronger is the principle of homeopathy. Now, even if you think without science brain, you can not accept this.
2) A Science-related-medicine or allopathy takes 20 years of research minimum before the drug formula is formulated, researched, tested with real and placebos for side effects for potential cure or phantom effects of the drugs before it comes to the market. Considering the amount of funding it has to undergo for 20+ years for the drug to reach the market with safe (including the monitored side effects) measures, I am happy to pay whatever is the rate for science based medicine which claims and proves how the drug acts.
3) Regarding the claim on intuition, I am sorry to tell you, you are wrong. Science does not disregard it. Researches are still going on to identify the part of brain which tells us how we got our intuition and how primates still have the ability to over perform us in a simple memory test. A BBC study showed primates have better memory than us. The terms you are using are superficial. Intuition means "pure or untaught", "a keen insight". What do you want to explain or conceptualize about this here?? Science tries to identify the part of brain associated for a person's keen acumen, people with great observational powers... And at a later stage may be to "Measure" one's intuition. I am in the neuroscience department myself.
4) Homeopathy if it is as you claim, why do you think couldn't get an appreciation in convincing people that even it doesnt have proof, its able to cure say measles or rabies or whatever better than allopathy and start advertising?? There are big centres in the UK, the US and in India and in many other places and they definitely have funds.
Why is it that the homeopathist himself is not interested in finding a proof for its working. Wouldn't it be a natural thinking of a curious human to know the reason for its "claimed excellence"?? I saw a documentary by "Richard Dawkins" in which an homeopathist (famous one) gives NaCl as medicine (of course a million times diluted) for knee-pain to a patient. When Dawkins asked how do you think common salt could cure this, the doctor replies "I dont know". How dumb can you be to rely on such a person?? If homeopathy is really a science and science is a villain to reject it, then tell me this, Why is there no ground-breaking research or proofs in homeopathy which is awarded a Nobel Prize??? What is it they claim then?
1) After giving that "tons of para" and then u talking of principle I'm only left wit ha feeling of despair and sympathy!! I don't request anyone to read my posts thoroughly for no reason!! So I'm certainly no going to repeat/post those whole "tons of para" I posted for another "tons" if time!!
2) Anothe raddition to the tons of para
How Scientific Is Modern Medicine?

Mahatma Gandhi was once asked by a reporter what he thought about Western civilization, and in light of the uncivilized treatment by the British government of his nonviolent actions, he immediately replied, "Western civilization? Yes, it is a good idea." Likewise, if he were asked what he thought about "scientific medicine," he would probably have replied in a similar manner.

The idea of scientific medicine is a great one, but is modern medicine truly, or even adequately, "scientific"?

Modern medicine uses the double-blind and placebo-controlled trial as the gold standard by which effectiveness of a treatment is determined. On the surface, this scientific method is very reasonable. However, serious problems in these studies are widely acknowledged by academics but remain unknown to the general public. Fundamental questions about the meaning of the word "efficacy" are rarely, if ever, raised.

For instance, just because a drug treatment seems to eliminate a specific symptom doesn't necessarily mean that it is "effective." In fact, getting rid of a specific symptom can be the bad news. Aspirin may lower your fever, but physiologists recognize that fever is an important defense of the body in its efforts to fight infection. Painkilling drugs may eliminate the acute pain in the short term, but because these drugs do not influence the underlying cause of the discomfort, they do not really heal the person, and worse, they can lead to physical and psychological dependency, addiction, tolerance, and increased heart disease. Sleep-inducing drugs may lead you to fall asleep, but they do not lead to refreshed sleep, and these drugs ultimately tend to aggravate the cycle of insomnia and fatigue. Uncertainty remains for the long-term safety and efficacy of many modern drugs for common ailments, despite the high hopes and sincere expectations from the medical community and the rest of us for greater certainty.

The bottom line to scientific research is that a scientist can set up a study that shows the guise of efficacy. In other words, a drug may be effective for a very limited period of time and afterwards cause various serious symptoms. For example, a very popular anti-anxiety drug called Xanax was shown to reduce panic attacks during a two-month experiment, but once the person tries to reduce or stop the medication, panic attacks can increase 300-400 percent ( Consumer Reports , 1993).Would as many patients take this drug if they knew this fact, and based on what standard can anyone honestly say that this drug is "effective"?

To get FDA approval to market a drug, most of the studies for psychiatric conditions last only six weeks (Angell, 2004, 112). In view of the fact that most people take anti-depressant or anti-anxiety medicines for many years, how can anyone consider these short-term studies scientifically valid? What is so little known and so sobering is that research to date has found that placebos were 80 percent as effective as the drugs-with fewer side effects (Angell, 2004, 113).

Marcia Angell,MD, author of the powerful book The Truth about Drug Companies , said it plainly and directly: "Trials can be rigged in a dozen ways, and it happens all the time" (Angell, 2004, 95). Conventional drugs used today are so new that there is very little longterm research on them. There are good reasons why the vast majority of modern drugs that were used just a couple of decades ago are not prescribed any more: They don't work as well as previously assumed, and/or they cause more harm than good.

Sadly and strangely, physicians do not see that there is something fundamentally wrong with the present medical model. Instead, once an old drug is found to be ineffective or dangerous, doctors and drug companies simply assert the "scientifically proven" efficacy of a new drug. Despite this recurrent pattern, doctors are prescribing drugs at record-breaking rates:


In 2005 the volume of prescription drugs sold in the U.S. was equal to 12.3 drugs for every man, woman, and child in that year alone (compared to 1994, when 7.9 prescription drugs per year were on average purchased by every American). (Kaiser Family Foundation, 2006)


According to a 2005 study, 44 percent of all Americans take at least one prescription drug and 17 percent take three or more prescription drugs (This number increased 40 percent between 1994 and 2000). ( Medscape , 2005)

The extremely high numbers listed above are considerably higher if one adds in the over-the-counter drugs that doctors recommend or that patients take on their own.When a patient takes more than one drug at a time, the research conducted on each of the drugs individually becomes virtually meaningless. Considering how many people take two or more drugs together raises serious doubts about the scientific ground on which physicians stand (except in those few instances when a multiple-drug protocol has been tested, as has occurred with some drugs in the treatment of people with AIDS).

One might hope that the American public would greatly benefit from receiving the "best" and certainly most expensive care that modern medicine has to offer. However, this simply isn't true. In fact, the following statistics powerfully state the real limitations of what the "best"medical care provides:


According to 2006 data, the infant mortality rate in the United States was ranked twenty-first in the world, worse than South Korea and Greece and only slightly better than Poland.


Data from 2006 also showed that the life expectancy rate in the United States was ranked seventeenth in the world, tied with Cyprus and only slightly ahead of Albania. (InfoPlease, 2007)

One of the largest drug companies in the world is GlaxoSmithKline. It was therefore a bit shocking, but not surprising, when Allen Roses, worldwide vice-president of genetics, acknowledged that "The vast majority of drugs -- more than 90 percent -- only work in 30 percent or 50 percent of the people" (Connor, 2003). The public is not frequently given this degree of honesty.

Understanding and Rewriting History

Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past. -- George Orwell, author of 1984

History provides us with a tremendously diverse body of evidence about our past, but ultimately, only a small portion of history is told in our history books. The interpretation of our past and the select use of certain historical facts and figures taint our understanding of what really happened.

Historians commonly remark that whichever country wins a war or whichever worldview dominates another, the history is told through that country's perspective or that dominant point of view. This is certainly true in the history of medicine. For instance, medical historians commonly have portrayed conventional medical practice of the past as barbaric, dangerous, and old-fashioned, and yet they have asserted that today's medical care is at the apex of "scientific medicine." The assertion that today's medical care is "proven" is a consistently repeated mantra.

History also tends to portray those who lose a war and who represent a minority point of view as having less than positive attributes. For instance, those physicians practicing medicine differently than the orthodox medical practice might be called cranks, crackpots, and quacks. Such name-calling is a wonderfully clever way to trivialize potentially valuable contributions, whether or not one understands what these contributions really are.

Besides name-calling, practitioners of the conventional and dominating paradigm often spin facts to make the strong and solid features of a minority practice into something strange and weird. The fact that homeopaths use smaller doses than used in orthodox medicine has been portrayed as homeopathy using "wimpy" doses that theoretically could not have any physiological effect. Accusations that homeopathic medicines could not possibly have any effect are made without knowledge, experience, or humility, and such accusations simply become evidence of the accuser's unscientific attitude and his or her ignorance of the diverse body of basic scientific work on the effects of nanodoses of certain substances in specific situations.

The fact that homeopaths have used their medicines for more than 200 years is spun as evidence that this system of medicine has not "progressed." Another interpretation here is that the same homeopathic medicines used 200 years ago are still used today, along with hundreds of new ones, primarily because the old ones still work. The art of using homeopathic medicines is that they are not prescribed for a localized disease but for a syndrome or pattern of symptoms of which the localized disease is a part.

The fact that homeopaths interview a patient to discover his or her unique symptoms has been spun to make homeopathy seem like a quirky system that revels in inane facts about a patient. However, the detailed symptoms and characteristics of the patient that homeopaths collect may seem inane only to people who are not familiar with the unique and critical nature of these individualizing features of each person. Homeopathy provides a sophisticated method by which a patient's characteristics are applied to selecting and prescribing the most effective homeopathic medicine.
So u may be happy to pay whatever is the rate for science based medicine which claims and proves how the drug acts. I really do not doubt it! :)

3) And did I say anything different? Thats what I said that reasearch is still being done on intuiton and christened as "intuitional science"!! Those who say intution is illogical and outwardly reject it are the ones whome I terming as totally "blind"!! Intuition also means "knowledge gained of something without the use of reasoning or the five basic senses" or via instinct!!


4) Sorry for repeating a small excerpt from those "tons of para"
Q: How can scientists be so mystified by gravity
yet also claim to explain it?
A: This is a basic conflict in our science. It is the function
of our educational institutions to teach the beliefs of the day
and to stand by them no matter what. This often means
justifying or defending theories that are actually indefensible
upon any serious close inspection. Take a good look at these
examples of fatally flawed explanations related to gravity in
plain view, which are commonly taught as correct in physics
classes around the world today:

1) Gravitational Perpetual Motion:

As we all know, perpetual motion machines are impossible,
and claims of such devices are a clear sign of bad science.
No device (or natural phenomenon) can expend energy
without draining a power source, and certainly cannot operate
with no power source at all. Yet our science states that an
object dropped into a tunnel cut through the Earth would be
accelerated to the center by gravity, then decelerated as it
approached the other end, only to be accelerated down again,
over and over – endlessly. Even our most elementary physics
states that it takes energy expenditure from a known power
source to accelerate and decelerate objects, yet there is no
power source in site here, let alone a draining one. Despite
detailed atomic theories and even having split the atom,
science has never identified a gravitational power source.
This describes an actively operating mechanism that never
ends and never drains a power source – an impossible
perpetual motion scenario, according to today’s physics.

2) The Work formula:

When all else fails, we are told not to worry about the
gravitational power source because gravity never does any
work throughout the universe. According to today’s science,
all of the gravity-driven dynamics in our universe occur without
any work being done, therefore there is no reason to expect
energy expenditure from any power source – no power is
required for any of it. We are told that objects are pinned
forcefully and continually to the planet by gravity, but since
they just sit there, even though forcefully pinned down, no
energy source is required to explain this. How can such a claim
be justified? Simple – ignore the physical gravitational energy
expenditure and recast it as a formal Work scenario. Why does
this suddenly seem to solve such a deep physical problem?
Because the formal definition of Work in physics is: (force
applied) x (distance moved). Note: this is not the form of
work that we all relate to, where expending energy is doing
work. Instead, Work, by definition, ignores all energy expended
unless it happens to move something. While this formal Work
definition does calculate the energy expended to move objects
it will also obviously give a zero result whenever an applied
force cannot move an object, such as when we push on a wall
or when gravity pulls on an object that is already on the ground.
Of course this does not mean no energy was expended, but
simply that the Work equation was only designed to deal with
a very limited energy scenario where the applied force happens
to move something. It is an extremely grievous elementary
abuse of physics to borrow the formal Work formula and
misapply it to a scenario where no motion exists just to claim
that the "zero work" result means no energy source is required
to forcefully pin objects to the ground. Part of the reason this
explanation has been allowed to slide for so long is because
this very limited Work definition has the same name as the
actual concept of energy-driven work that we are familiar with.
So when an authority figure presents a formal "Work" equation
from a physics textbook and does a calculation that gives a
"zero work" result, apparently resolving enormous questions
about gravity in our science, it is difficult to resist the "no work,
no energy" assurance from a teacher, which everyone else
seems ok with, never to seriously question it again. And so it
goes, generation after generation, leading to the current mess
we have over common gravity in our science today.

Even the forceful constraining of the moon in its orbit is said to
require no energy, since the Work equation is also defined to
give zero when an object moves perpendicular to the applied
force. So the fact that gravity pulls downward on the passing
moon is said to free science from acknowledging the enormous
energy that must be required to constrain the moon in orbit.
Not only is this just as grievous and elementary an error as
shown above for all the same reasons, but it further mistakes
the motion of the passing moon as pertinent to the calculation.
In actuality, the moon already had a pre-existing coasting
motion past the planet that has nothing to do with gravity’s
pull. It is the continual motion of the moon downward due to
the downward pull of gravity that keeps its coasting constrained
to circle the planet rather than proceeding off into deep space.
Once the thinly veiled "zero work" excuses are removed, it is
clear to see that none of today’s gravity theories can answer
even the simplest physical questions about gravity, which is
why the Work equation diversion technique is used over and
over in classrooms around the world when such questions
arise, since the only alternative is to admit "I don’t know".
I hope u can read atleast this small para! And then upon this and those "tons of para" I reflect the bold part back to u!!

legolas said:
People who claim to have schizophrenia speak with people, think of characters which doesn't exist in reality and are even sometimes threat to society and are put in mental asylums when they are found harmful. Now why wouldn't I argue saying that I have not experienced it and so I don't know if its true or God is communicating with him or he is in his own spiritual world, he has attained a stage where he can see things?? There is a limit to using the term "because you can experience it, you can not deny it".
Do u mean the "Apollo Moon Landing" where the big ones "claimed" to have landed moon?? :D I wonder why they r still roaming out there, not put in mental asylums and degrading the meaning of science.
So right now I'm talking about intuition and not anything like "speaking to gosts" which I haven't experienced/seen or found to be correct frequently. But let me remind science really is working on even the wierdest topics like "Life after death", "reincarnation" where a few of cases of previous life have been found to be correct.
Survival of bodily death conference]

And yes I agree "There is a limit to using the term "because you can experience it, you can not deny it"". But the case we r dicsussing in general is well within under limit and quite frequent!!

There is no term as Twisted Logic. Its an oxymoron which you have used. When there is logic to something, it doesnt matter if its twisted or not. coz, there is LOGIC to it!!
:oops: Pallease! I know english is wierd!!

Homeopathy, astrology (motion of planets and 2 non-planets control your damn life without free-will which again denies God's free-will concept, but that is entirely different topic), religion, and the ton's of issues it brings along with war, superstitions, meditation involving exploring your 7 chakras or seeing God or path towards God are pure crap.
May be to u, Or May be u wud like to read those "tons of para" so as to stop repeating what others have already said!!! I'm not justifying any of em and not even saying that our fancy modern science "hold all the answer"!! I'm simply telling homeopathy etc have been used for 100s of yrs and found to be working nicely. And even though modern science is just speculating on it, our dear friends here have taken a step further from their more knowledgable scientific colleagues in big reseach centers and already given there "A BIG NO" on it!! :oops:
Whereas they trying to justify "modern science" and their own "theories" which are based on flaws/errors/unexplained phenomena (for which I have taken the time to put forward) syaing so affirmly. that "Yes, this is all true"!!


However, meditation as a means of relieving one's tension or alleviating pain or destressing oneself is a better art. Exploiting it and believing in the exploitation is a magic trick where you just don't know its magic.

In toto, your arguments are similar to Osho who is an atheist and believes in meditation, but his arguments were only to attain peace with yourself and get rid of the masks put by society on the basis of religion. You have confused a lot with his principles if you were indeed motivated by him. If not, I urge you to listen to Osho's lectures.

b]I am sorry I did not read the 5 page notes you have posted occasionally as your replies[/b]. I am least interested in reading it and arguing due to lack of time. However, I would encourage and appreciate it if you could gist the discrepancy you find and post it here instead of pasting the whole content of a site.
And I thought that the scientific minds read the history first before progressing further. I'm really not interested in ur same old typical opinions and on what u think. But u cud have saved my from repeating much by ethically reading the whole thing!! :)
 
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