amjath
Human Spambot
He knew it, his post has a razz smiley
*** Science Or God? ***
snap
Lurker
He knew it, his post has a razz smiley
No i didn't D:
amjath
Human Spambot
Oh my mistake then. Apologies
snap
Lurker
rajatGod512
N00B Troller
how do you guys dont know about Interstellar , I talked to many guys and they were like : What ?
Agree.
Look at probabilities, understand the human psyche, and then tell me what's more likely mathematically:
A. Some super-duper-being had a brain fart and decided "Let there be light" (or whatever phrase or action is suggested in whatever religion you want to apply this argument for) and created the entire universe. (for some, he didn't create it but still runs it, or ... )
Or
B. Early humans with an increased capacity for thinking started using their brains and were mindf**ked by the amount of things they didn't understand...
Where does the sun go? Why are there stars? Why did my mate die young? Why does it get cold for a few months a year?
Thus they started considering the Sun a god, who gave them blessing by warming them and letting them see. Etc.
And once the momentum of treating everything one doesn't understand immediately as a God takes over, it will continue for thousands of years, because only a few people in every generation get the luxury of thinking these things out. Most people have a job, a life, and daily struggles, and thus couldn't be bothered to take a hard, time-consuming mental journey of discovery, when all religions give you an easy out.
It was always rich men who got the luxury of thinking and experimenting, and the poor were easy targets for control by religious leaders.
Power is what humans struggle for, so do animals - to try and head their herd, get mating rights, etc - and all religions bestow power on a few, as leaders, isn't that an indication enough for people as to what's happening here?
If I saw Neil deGrasse Tyson at a cafe, I'm sure I could walk up to him and say hi. It may be rude, but I wouldn't get shot trying to approach him.
Would you be able to do that with any significant religious leaders? How strange that they're as unapproachable as politicians, and yet we hate politicians and love our religious leaders?
abhigeek
I
Good to know [MENTION=1]Raaabo[/MENTION]
Instead to teaching, leaders just forced their opinions on masses.
As masses were gullible and illiterate people, who can't think as smart people.
If scientist in ancient period, told people that earth is round. He was labeled as madman or a crazy person.
Let me give you a truth behind a popular superstition "Fear of Cat crossing path, Something bad will happen"
In the ancient time, there was just jungle and few little town. So if people saw cat running, they assume that it may running seeing a big animal like lion or a tiger.
So is with god, God was created to simplify the complicated things and control masses. And this system became so complicated over centuries (like different religions, beliefs, faction, tradition).
As computer started with binary (1 and 0).
Instead to teaching, leaders just forced their opinions on masses.
As masses were gullible and illiterate people, who can't think as smart people.
If scientist in ancient period, told people that earth is round. He was labeled as madman or a crazy person.
Let me give you a truth behind a popular superstition "Fear of Cat crossing path, Something bad will happen"
In the ancient time, there was just jungle and few little town. So if people saw cat running, they assume that it may running seeing a big animal like lion or a tiger.
So is with god, God was created to simplify the complicated things and control masses. And this system became so complicated over centuries (like different religions, beliefs, faction, tradition).
As computer started with binary (1 and 0).
sentences like this in your otherwise somewhat decent arguments is like those small stones found in daal/pulses dishes served in poor quality restaurants.If you really believe Nikolas Tesla was a telepath then it makes you no different from those who believe in prophets walking on water.
People expect "faith" for religion, and "proof" from science. That's where the problem lies.
Take for example a dead body fished out from the water. Investigations reveal that the person went walking alone on a bridge. His shoes were found near the railing of the bridge. His last call was to his mother to tell her he loved her. Suicide or accident?
Religion will find deeper meanings and call it a divine intervention that caused this man to jump, and find meaning in his death, saying god must have a plan. Some will get creative and outline a plan so great that it will basically involve this guy jumping off a bridge = 20,000 lives saved in Sudan...
The everyday atheist will rubbish the religious dogma and say look at the fu**ing evidence, it's obvious he committed suicide. Nothing more.
A scientist will dig deeper and say it's probably suicide, but we can't be sure unless we have like CCTV footage or something to prove it 100% without doubt. He could have just fallen too. It's more probable that he killed himself, but accident also has a probability of 3.86527 per cent.
Then the religious will quote the scientist to say, see, it's possible be didn't kill himself and it's also possible that god called him to heaven... science can't say for sure... almost 4% margin for error is as good as not knowing!
Apply logic to things, and you will get the correct answer more often than not. Just don't take leaps of faith.
For example Tesla.
Think of a person who's expecting someone to die. His mental state will give him dreams or nightmares about death. It's normal.
What's also normal is humans trying to validate feelings. 1000 times you will feel something, but it only has to be right once for you to remember that and forget the 999 false positives.
Say, you are a cautious chap, and you look 6 times before crossing a road. Every single time you look, and nothing happens, you just look and forget. However, the one time in thousands that you see a speeding car that you wouldn't have noticed if you had looked only 5 times. The car comes pretty close also, and you shake your fist and abuse him, but you take pride in yourself that you knew it, you could "feel" that car approach. Thus you have experienced something unexplained.
In Tesla's case, he only remembered a dream when it was vivid and also happened to coincide with his mother dying. Maybe he had the same or similar dream many times before but went to find her alive and just forgot the dreams as "fears", and not premonitions.
The same feeling is displayed when you suddenly look somewhere and catch someone looking at you. It's as if a sixth sense tells us that someone is watching.
Brilliant, cry the religious, we don't understand things fully, and science is all rubbish, ergo a god must exist.
Though it's also possible that the human brain causes us to look around, and only fixate or jump from subconscious to conscious when we spot another set of human eyes who perhaps want to communicate with us. So although you're looking around subconsciously, only certain images jerk you into reality.
Want to experiment. Look at someone who's walking ahead of you. Stare at him hard, think nasty thoughts, about how he's going to get crushed by a falling piano, and how ironic it will be... etc. Imagine how you will try not to laugh at the irony while his broken body quivers as the life leaves it... morbid, yes. But see how often people turn to look at you as if they "knew" you were watching. How many turn and look at you angrily, as if they know you were thinking nasty thoughts. Don't stare at women, they have to put up with enough nasty thoughts, and thus may be on higher mental alert anyway. Do it to guys.
We just tend to notice when it confirms something we already feel. It's like confirmation bias. Your brain is looking for an answer it wants to fit everything together, and gives preference to noticing only some things. Thus we have optimism and pessimism, and a depressed person actively searches out misery in life, noticing what's bad or finding flaws in everything, while a happy person might ignore everything bad and focus on the good.
In the end, we're just slaves to chemistry.
Take for example a dead body fished out from the water. Investigations reveal that the person went walking alone on a bridge. His shoes were found near the railing of the bridge. His last call was to his mother to tell her he loved her. Suicide or accident?
Religion will find deeper meanings and call it a divine intervention that caused this man to jump, and find meaning in his death, saying god must have a plan. Some will get creative and outline a plan so great that it will basically involve this guy jumping off a bridge = 20,000 lives saved in Sudan...
The everyday atheist will rubbish the religious dogma and say look at the fu**ing evidence, it's obvious he committed suicide. Nothing more.
A scientist will dig deeper and say it's probably suicide, but we can't be sure unless we have like CCTV footage or something to prove it 100% without doubt. He could have just fallen too. It's more probable that he killed himself, but accident also has a probability of 3.86527 per cent.
Then the religious will quote the scientist to say, see, it's possible be didn't kill himself and it's also possible that god called him to heaven... science can't say for sure... almost 4% margin for error is as good as not knowing!
Apply logic to things, and you will get the correct answer more often than not. Just don't take leaps of faith.
For example Tesla.
Think of a person who's expecting someone to die. His mental state will give him dreams or nightmares about death. It's normal.
What's also normal is humans trying to validate feelings. 1000 times you will feel something, but it only has to be right once for you to remember that and forget the 999 false positives.
Say, you are a cautious chap, and you look 6 times before crossing a road. Every single time you look, and nothing happens, you just look and forget. However, the one time in thousands that you see a speeding car that you wouldn't have noticed if you had looked only 5 times. The car comes pretty close also, and you shake your fist and abuse him, but you take pride in yourself that you knew it, you could "feel" that car approach. Thus you have experienced something unexplained.
In Tesla's case, he only remembered a dream when it was vivid and also happened to coincide with his mother dying. Maybe he had the same or similar dream many times before but went to find her alive and just forgot the dreams as "fears", and not premonitions.
The same feeling is displayed when you suddenly look somewhere and catch someone looking at you. It's as if a sixth sense tells us that someone is watching.
Brilliant, cry the religious, we don't understand things fully, and science is all rubbish, ergo a god must exist.
Though it's also possible that the human brain causes us to look around, and only fixate or jump from subconscious to conscious when we spot another set of human eyes who perhaps want to communicate with us. So although you're looking around subconsciously, only certain images jerk you into reality.
Want to experiment. Look at someone who's walking ahead of you. Stare at him hard, think nasty thoughts, about how he's going to get crushed by a falling piano, and how ironic it will be... etc. Imagine how you will try not to laugh at the irony while his broken body quivers as the life leaves it... morbid, yes. But see how often people turn to look at you as if they "knew" you were watching. How many turn and look at you angrily, as if they know you were thinking nasty thoughts. Don't stare at women, they have to put up with enough nasty thoughts, and thus may be on higher mental alert anyway. Do it to guys.
We just tend to notice when it confirms something we already feel. It's like confirmation bias. Your brain is looking for an answer it wants to fit everything together, and gives preference to noticing only some things. Thus we have optimism and pessimism, and a depressed person actively searches out misery in life, noticing what's bad or finding flaws in everything, while a happy person might ignore everything bad and focus on the good.
In the end, we're just slaves to chemistry.
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doomgiver
Warframe
hi buddy you still think this is a fighting debate ?
i said it in a funny way!
you;re confusing god with random feats of humans. why dont you associate Einstein's huge intellect with something spiritual? go ahead, say that Einstein got his brainpower from aliens or "god". just like Einstein was highly intelligent, some people are highly flexible or highly resistant to pain.
singleindian
Journeyman
[MENTION=1]Raaabo[/MENTION] sir brilliantly put up in words ..
i agree that's the case with most cases but extrapolating it to all and every case isn't logical in the case of the growing evidence...
i am assuming you haven't read up any of my previous posts and hence this explanation ...
tesla's case isn't even a case its just a 1 anecdote out of millions of anecdote out there .. like i told you before i just mentioned him passingly..
there have been far more conclusive evidence than that under controlled environment although repeatability is a factor and hence widespread acceptance in mainstream science is still hard until further conclusive repeatable evidence in double blind studies is found .. in next 30 years it might become a mainstream fact as well..
regarding your confirmation bias
confirmation bias can only work when brain and heart is alive it cannot work when brain is dead and flatlined .. read up the research on NDE please and that totally renders that argument invalid
totally wrong and a very dangerous philosophy indeed..
if that was the case then nobody would be able to get rid of addictions without using any drugs or medications..
if that were the case strict materialist atheists believers would still be fearing gods which isn't the case... most of might still do but others dismiss god as a nonsense joke and continue to live happy lives until they die without any need to believe,worship or fear ..
please read up on "placebo effect "
people can insert 10 inches of nails in their arms and not feel any pain or drop even a single drop of blood ..
please don't mix all religions in 1 basket .. practical religions like buddhism,yoga, Chinese martial arts , qigong aren't even theoretical , they are all based on practical exercises , theory is just a guide and an explanation just as we have in science ..
tell me what is the probability of a tradition or a religion that is not based on money/fame/theory /faith/fear / an easy way out to busy people like you said / something for foolish people to believe in for etc...
and is totally based on practical experiments would last .. ? 10 years - 50 years ... 100 years ?
thousands of years ? impossible
i can come up with a religion or a tradition with an experiment like jump in a certain way 100 times and claim you will fly.. people will follow the exercises first and when they don't fly they are at somepoint going to say its bullshit man it doesn't work (no matter how gullible or foolish they are ).. and after getting pissed off for wasting their time they are sure going to kill me .. and this practice or religion would have fallen out of time..
the very fact that it exists today is a great indicative proof in itself that it has worked for people practicing it for thousands of years.. is open for anyone to try it out and see for themselves
most practitioners devote their entire life perfecting these exercises , stay away from societies and live in areas like hills and mountains, hardly talk to general public , give up their families , money , fame etc .. unlike these religious leaders , popes and tv babas who sit and sleep in cash , gold and fame and rule over gullible people ..
we can say ohh these old people were dumb and foolish in believing sun as their gods and thinking rain , thunderstorm as an act of god .. most of it might be but all of them ? mayans had precise calenders that work with marvelous precision and was very scientific community... egyptians had batteries more than 2000 years ago .. while we discovered only 100 years ago..
egyptians had great knowledge of reverse magnetism and other laws and they were able to cut these tons of rocks with great laser like precision with simple tools and build these great pyramids which we don't understand yet
take for example mahabharata
1 ) assuming its Fake
this is so detailed and describes fine scenery in its details that no fiction tale of modern day writers can match or write up a similar story . they explain things like after effects of nuclear wars , multiverse theory , flying airplanes , all are real places , and many other things
if this is all imagination then imagine the intellect of the imaginator who made up that story in that time .. even davinci was only able to imagine airplanes in 1500 ad ..while mahabharata is dated around 3000-5000 bc
and why would he be the only 1 possessing this high intellect ? there should and were many like him as well
so not all of them were fools and dumb ..
2) well if its real then
i can write more stuff on it but i'll be repeating what i have already said in past posts..
hi buddy you still think this is a fighting debate ?
all i can say is then congratulations on winning .. well done
as for me i never even cared..
bye won't be posting for long time now
i am really confused reading ur post,which u side r u in?
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even medical tourism existed in ancient india
*www.mumbaimirror.com/photo/45029715.cms
abhigeek
I
Yeah, I'm also getting confused....
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[MENTION=138559]rish[/MENTION] dude you are mixing God with telepathy and all other thing ...
It seems like you watched "SuperHumans" on discovery.
[MENTION=138559]rish[/MENTION]
I haven't read previous posts no. However I've had years of experience talking about this with many people so I've heard all the usual arguments.
"Millions" is an extrapolation or exaggeration usually. And easily countered with billions who don't experience what people claim.
Stuff like "telepathy" may very well turn out to be something the subconscious mind is capable of. It's still science. However, it's still better to use logic and science to allow testing and confirmation of such things. As you say it yourself, being repeatable in a controlled environment is essential, and it's not happening thus far. As for "mainstream" science, that's kind of a misnomer. It has to be accepted with tests for it to be scientific. You make science sound like some cult.
How does confirmation bias become an invalid argument with near death experiences? The term is "near death" and not after death experiences. The phrase you're using itself is invalid by suggesting the brain is dead during a near death experience. Resuscitations have happened hours after the heart has stopped, but the person was considered still alive, not dead, thus the attempt to resuscitate.
Most near death experiences are probably the brain continuing to receive stimulus when in a subconscious or coma state, thus bringing images together a little randomly to form surreal images.
You actually do this all the time, it's called dreaming. The few times you're awakened during REM sleep and have a vivid recollection of a dream, you will see that it's usually fantastic or improbable or weird. Dreams are almost NEVER in tune with reality. You will dream of your mum, at breakfast, but the house isn't your own. Sometimes it can be weird. You get all the same feelings as you would if it was your mum, but it's your second grade teacher, or your dad in a dress, if you happened to watch Mrs Doubtfire, for example, before sleeping.
This happens DAILY to most people, and yet we marvel at someone saying "I saw a white light" or "I was floating above watching the scene of my dead body"? Surely we should have more respect for the brain than that...
As for slaves to chemistry, every example you've given as a counter is a chemistry example. Your mistake is not looking at the human body and brain as a chemical process. Sadness is a change in chemistry, as is happiness. You get hyper aware when scared, that's chemistry. I quit smoking without medications because my doctor told me I'd die if I didn't, in as little as a year. I went from 40 a day to nothing, and that was a chemical change in my body brought about by fear.
The atheists believing in God bit was weird and didn't make sense to me, please clarify.
The placebo effect is exactly that, the use of brain chemistry to heal minor ailments especially pain and other brain controlled ailments.
The same for the self mutilating people. Chemistry. The same effects as anaesthesia are possible by internal chemistry. This bloodless piercing I have not seen, unless you mean inserting into cavities such as the nose or sword swallowing. Give links to reputed sites for such claims please.
Whether you like it or not, Buddhism, hinduism, Chinese whatever are religions now. I see enough people dancing on the streets and also killing over them to prove that they're religions and not some health manual.
The probability of a person continuing to follow the religion he is brainwashed into from birth is actually very high. Way higher than people converting or becoming atheists.
As for thousands of years, most religions are thousands of years old, and ridiculous. Look at the religions you criticise themselves, they're also thousands of years old and contain talking burning bushes and whatnot, and they survived thousands of years, in fact they're way bigger than Buddhism or other fringe religions and GROWING in popularity. The statement you made is a wrong assumption as you underestimate human stupidity. And please don't start a new stupid religion, there are enough as it is.
Also, please don't be selective, you take yoga, and make that out to be the entire religion. That's just a bunch of exercises, and everyone's known for thousands of years that getting fat and not exercising kills you faster. Yoga is great, so is running, jogging, cycling, swimming, etc.
As for ancient batteries, you're watching too many ancient aliens episodes or reading von daniken or something. Most of these "theories" don't stand the test of scientific scrutiny and have been disproven already.
There are people who are crazy enough to recreate the slabs of stones using tools only available back then in Egypt. What we don't have is their patience or all powerful kings who can behead you for not complying.
"describes fine scenery in its details that no fiction tale of modern day writers can match or write up a similar story"
You're kidding, right? Have you read science fiction from Asimov and Clarke, have you read Dune?
Please quote in original sanskrit where the nuclear wars are described and radiation, etc. Next you'll tell me there are equations in it that help you build your own reactor at home...
Just as you can sit around and find shapes in clouds, people find what they want to see in things they don't truly understand.
"The vedas know all the secrets of the universe." - I have heard this many times.
A religion you may not be able to start, but I guarantee you, if you set your mind to it, and write out passages with a lot of complex teems and a creative license that almost sounds like gibberish, eventually someone will start finding "meaning" in it.
Think about it logically, if you're saying that there were nuclear wars back then, wouldn't there be remnants of it to show? Wouldn't there be ONE warhead lying somewhere, perhaps buried under a city that was destroyed, and thus show up now? Shouldn't there be knowhow of making such warheads passed on from generation to generation. I would assume this talent would be way more prestigious than, say, making sandals. Wouldn't the ancient cities revel in victory and carve out mushroom clouds on their walls?
As for flight imagination. Surely you jest. Every single ancient civilisation "imagined" flight in some fantastic form or the other. Some imagined eagle-men hybrids, some humans with wings, Icarus and whatnot, and some imagined flying "vimana" which are everything from flying palaces, to chariots and even just a bird on whom a god rides.
Ever sat around a village gathering, and seen how word spreads? Take something simple, and tell them that in London, a man was arrested for killing and eating his girlfriend. Come back after a week and you will hear someone tell a story of how the zombie apocalypse has begun in England and everyone is eating everyone. Fantasy and exaggeration is as human as greed and desire.
Is it not possible that what started as one story teller talking about a god that rides a pigeon was retold as riding a hawk, then a chariot that flies, and eventually became a god who's whole army flies about in flying palaces? Knowing human tendency you really argue against that being a very real possibility, and in fact, the most probable and logical explanation?
I seriously hope you will post again and soon, because I am fascinated by why so many people believe in either science or god or both, and are willing to just ignore logic. And yes, there are a lot of science believers who ignore logic too... if it's science, and some smart guy said it, it must be true, and unquestionable, when in fact all that science is, is questioning everything.
I haven't read previous posts no. However I've had years of experience talking about this with many people so I've heard all the usual arguments.
"Millions" is an extrapolation or exaggeration usually. And easily countered with billions who don't experience what people claim.
Stuff like "telepathy" may very well turn out to be something the subconscious mind is capable of. It's still science. However, it's still better to use logic and science to allow testing and confirmation of such things. As you say it yourself, being repeatable in a controlled environment is essential, and it's not happening thus far. As for "mainstream" science, that's kind of a misnomer. It has to be accepted with tests for it to be scientific. You make science sound like some cult.
How does confirmation bias become an invalid argument with near death experiences? The term is "near death" and not after death experiences. The phrase you're using itself is invalid by suggesting the brain is dead during a near death experience. Resuscitations have happened hours after the heart has stopped, but the person was considered still alive, not dead, thus the attempt to resuscitate.
Most near death experiences are probably the brain continuing to receive stimulus when in a subconscious or coma state, thus bringing images together a little randomly to form surreal images.
You actually do this all the time, it's called dreaming. The few times you're awakened during REM sleep and have a vivid recollection of a dream, you will see that it's usually fantastic or improbable or weird. Dreams are almost NEVER in tune with reality. You will dream of your mum, at breakfast, but the house isn't your own. Sometimes it can be weird. You get all the same feelings as you would if it was your mum, but it's your second grade teacher, or your dad in a dress, if you happened to watch Mrs Doubtfire, for example, before sleeping.
This happens DAILY to most people, and yet we marvel at someone saying "I saw a white light" or "I was floating above watching the scene of my dead body"? Surely we should have more respect for the brain than that...
As for slaves to chemistry, every example you've given as a counter is a chemistry example. Your mistake is not looking at the human body and brain as a chemical process. Sadness is a change in chemistry, as is happiness. You get hyper aware when scared, that's chemistry. I quit smoking without medications because my doctor told me I'd die if I didn't, in as little as a year. I went from 40 a day to nothing, and that was a chemical change in my body brought about by fear.
The atheists believing in God bit was weird and didn't make sense to me, please clarify.
The placebo effect is exactly that, the use of brain chemistry to heal minor ailments especially pain and other brain controlled ailments.
The same for the self mutilating people. Chemistry. The same effects as anaesthesia are possible by internal chemistry. This bloodless piercing I have not seen, unless you mean inserting into cavities such as the nose or sword swallowing. Give links to reputed sites for such claims please.
Whether you like it or not, Buddhism, hinduism, Chinese whatever are religions now. I see enough people dancing on the streets and also killing over them to prove that they're religions and not some health manual.
The probability of a person continuing to follow the religion he is brainwashed into from birth is actually very high. Way higher than people converting or becoming atheists.
As for thousands of years, most religions are thousands of years old, and ridiculous. Look at the religions you criticise themselves, they're also thousands of years old and contain talking burning bushes and whatnot, and they survived thousands of years, in fact they're way bigger than Buddhism or other fringe religions and GROWING in popularity. The statement you made is a wrong assumption as you underestimate human stupidity. And please don't start a new stupid religion, there are enough as it is.
Also, please don't be selective, you take yoga, and make that out to be the entire religion. That's just a bunch of exercises, and everyone's known for thousands of years that getting fat and not exercising kills you faster. Yoga is great, so is running, jogging, cycling, swimming, etc.
As for ancient batteries, you're watching too many ancient aliens episodes or reading von daniken or something. Most of these "theories" don't stand the test of scientific scrutiny and have been disproven already.
There are people who are crazy enough to recreate the slabs of stones using tools only available back then in Egypt. What we don't have is their patience or all powerful kings who can behead you for not complying.
"describes fine scenery in its details that no fiction tale of modern day writers can match or write up a similar story"
You're kidding, right? Have you read science fiction from Asimov and Clarke, have you read Dune?
Please quote in original sanskrit where the nuclear wars are described and radiation, etc. Next you'll tell me there are equations in it that help you build your own reactor at home...
Just as you can sit around and find shapes in clouds, people find what they want to see in things they don't truly understand.
"The vedas know all the secrets of the universe." - I have heard this many times.
A religion you may not be able to start, but I guarantee you, if you set your mind to it, and write out passages with a lot of complex teems and a creative license that almost sounds like gibberish, eventually someone will start finding "meaning" in it.
Think about it logically, if you're saying that there were nuclear wars back then, wouldn't there be remnants of it to show? Wouldn't there be ONE warhead lying somewhere, perhaps buried under a city that was destroyed, and thus show up now? Shouldn't there be knowhow of making such warheads passed on from generation to generation. I would assume this talent would be way more prestigious than, say, making sandals. Wouldn't the ancient cities revel in victory and carve out mushroom clouds on their walls?
As for flight imagination. Surely you jest. Every single ancient civilisation "imagined" flight in some fantastic form or the other. Some imagined eagle-men hybrids, some humans with wings, Icarus and whatnot, and some imagined flying "vimana" which are everything from flying palaces, to chariots and even just a bird on whom a god rides.
Ever sat around a village gathering, and seen how word spreads? Take something simple, and tell them that in London, a man was arrested for killing and eating his girlfriend. Come back after a week and you will hear someone tell a story of how the zombie apocalypse has begun in England and everyone is eating everyone. Fantasy and exaggeration is as human as greed and desire.
Is it not possible that what started as one story teller talking about a god that rides a pigeon was retold as riding a hawk, then a chariot that flies, and eventually became a god who's whole army flies about in flying palaces? Knowing human tendency you really argue against that being a very real possibility, and in fact, the most probable and logical explanation?
I seriously hope you will post again and soon, because I am fascinated by why so many people believe in either science or god or both, and are willing to just ignore logic. And yes, there are a lot of science believers who ignore logic too... if it's science, and some smart guy said it, it must be true, and unquestionable, when in fact all that science is, is questioning everything.
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