Reservation System - Should it exist?
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linkin park
Broken In
those who say reservation should end live in a make believe world of their own ,we live in a democratic society where governments are formed and (deformed ?)by votes; policy of reservation how much irrational it may be will continue to exist because no political party can openly stand against it,no politician can speak against it,if courts come to your rescue these pigheaded politicians will and nullify the order of the court as has been done time and again by them.
it should end we should work for a caste less and ofcourse classless society ,the policy of reservation has thrown up a new class of elite.
it should end we should work for a caste less and ofcourse classless society ,the policy of reservation has thrown up a new class of elite.
linkin park
Broken In
no
karnivore
in your face..
Read post #70 and #79. Everything has been answered. All your points have been countered. Use your aptitude.^Hi, I only wonder when you'll "reason" on your numerous exposed flaws and contradictions, instead of propounding your beliefs!!?? You left your examples incomplete!
Problem is that you don't like debating. You like arguing. My word versus your words, yours versus mine. But I am going to disappoint you this time, because, I will try to stay away from arguments, as much as I can, and I am certainly, not going to argue on peripheral matters.
Don't worry about my examples. They are as good as they can be. Only that, you missed the point, and glossed over irrelevant areas. Exactly the same way that you didn't realise, that in one earlier post, I used IITs to represent institutionalized quality education, you missed what the numbers 19,000 represent.
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mediator
Technomancer
^I have read both of your posts which represent nuthing but the same old repeated flaws and contradictions which obviously you have chosen to neglect, "not to debate and reason on" and counter. Thats actually a nice way of saying that "I have answered your post". Besides, I'm not just debating with you but with the WHOLE squad of reservationists. Everyone can read the posts. But, it seems you have invented a new technique of circumventing the issue and points by repeating the same old ones in a new format and saying, "All your points have been countered" ?? I guess you wasted three posts in repetition, the time wasted, which could have been saved by "reasoning" on the backlog of your flaws.
I hoped you'd bring up more points and reason with the flow that was well established. I dunno how many times I have removed the misunderstandings of cast system and yet you quote sloka from manusmriti. Next, I showered enlightenment in post #61 for you. And once again, you reflected the same ignorance in that post #70 speaking of varnasystem in an ignorant view??
If you are trying to fool anyone, then its only yourself. And again with TN example, you are not "removing the line", but drawing it "darker" and ignoring the "root cause" ALL OVER AGAIN AND AGAIN!
Replying to other in the most appropriate way is called a debate. But "only propounding" your own beliefs and not listening/replying to others is called "trolling"!! So both my posts #61 and #76 remain UNANSWERED. Repeat if you like, post the same flaws and ignore me, if thats a new trick of yours to say "I'm still in the game". So instead of explaining yourself and wasting posts you could have done better. So "prove", if you can, "how everything has been answered" by quoting the posts #61 and #76!! "Reason", instead of repeating the same flaws and your contradictory "beliefs".
I hoped you'd bring up more points and reason with the flow that was well established. I dunno how many times I have removed the misunderstandings of cast system and yet you quote sloka from manusmriti. Next, I showered enlightenment in post #61 for you. And once again, you reflected the same ignorance in that post #70 speaking of varnasystem in an ignorant view??
If you are trying to fool anyone, then its only yourself. And again with TN example, you are not "removing the line", but drawing it "darker" and ignoring the "root cause" ALL OVER AGAIN AND AGAIN!
Replying to other in the most appropriate way is called a debate. But "only propounding" your own beliefs and not listening/replying to others is called "trolling"!! So both my posts #61 and #76 remain UNANSWERED. Repeat if you like, post the same flaws and ignore me, if thats a new trick of yours to say "I'm still in the game". So instead of explaining yourself and wasting posts you could have done better. So "prove", if you can, "how everything has been answered" by quoting the posts #61 and #76!! "Reason", instead of repeating the same flaws and your contradictory "beliefs".
rhitwick
Democracy is a myth
@Mediator...booo hooo hoo
for the last one and half our I was writing reply for u. At least one page would have filled...
and my firefox crashed while opening some links which thought would be useful for u.
Jah, aur kuch nahi bolna hai tujhe......
*s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj44/visio159/Unismilies/107large.png
for the last one and half our I was writing reply for u. At least one page would have filled...
and my firefox crashed while opening some links which thought would be useful for u.
Jah, aur kuch nahi bolna hai tujhe......
*s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj44/visio159/Unismilies/107large.png
mediator
Technomancer
^As a friend I can advise you to use, Linux and gedit and not to waste time specially for me. Frankly, I'm honoured and appreciate it! And since our friend has chosen to betray us, I was expecting some good news ONLY from you. *www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-hug008.gif
chaliye, @linkin park se sahmat hote hain, kyunki in sabhya aur sushil ghar ke mantriyon se ham kabi ni jeet sakte
and not to waste time specially for me. Frankly, I'm honoured and appreciate it! And since our friend has chosen to betray us, I was expecting some good news ONLY from you. *www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-hug008.gifchaliye, @linkin park se sahmat hote hain, kyunki in sabhya aur sushil ghar ke mantriyon se ham kabi ni jeet sakte
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trigger
Journeyman
same case here, i too phailed JEE, but the reason was different in both cases. The Reservation..
karnivore
in your face..
Don’t know why I always get sucked into this. This the reply to your post #61. I will only respond to your reply, if I find there is something worth responding to. So stop begging.
If you claim, that you got to know about casteism only because of reservation issue, then you were living under a rock. That is your problem, not mine.
Reservation, doesn’t seek to punish the perpetrators, because that is a separate issue – issue of law and order, outside the scope of reservation. It is adequately addressed through laws, more precisely Criminal Procedure Code. Like, discriminating against a person on basis of race, caste, creed or religion is a criminal offence under penal code. There is also Atrocities Act.
If you had read post #70, “the purpose of reservation”, your query would have been answered. But as always, you need to be spoon fed.
It is actually a shame, that an educated person call the improvement of a rape victim, as “some theoretical”.
Read post #70, “Blame the incorrect interpretation of the “varna” system”
By brahminism, I meant the rise of the Brahmins, circa 8 century BCE, where, every aspect of life got governed by the dictates of these Brahmins. The reason why historians call that “brahminism” (some call it “vedic brahminism”) is because, it was during that time, that the various texts got interpreted, in the way that the barhmins wanted to, for their benefit ,and got imposed on the society. It was during that time, that all the evils in Hindu society that you see today, got certified by the Brahmins. (It is incidentally the era that saw the demise of Buddhism as well.)
Funny part is, post after post, you have tried to say, that Brahmins, the fake ones, misinterpreted the varna system. But when I used a different terminology to say almost the same thing, you started to question the veracity of my arguments. Not only that, you have gone so far to even reject brahminism, not knowing that you are actually refuting your own argument. You say now, it is a result of “misunderstandings”. Previously, and again later you claimed of misinterpreting the scripts. Now can you tell me who misinterpreted or misunderstood the texts, given the fact that only Brahmins were qualified to interpret the Vedas. And when did this happen ?
A simple change in nomenclature tripped you over. Clearly, you are neither reading things in the right context nor are you debating. You are just arguing for argument’s sake. It also shows the vacuity of your arguments.
Besides, you are probably not aware, that even though the dalits are converting to run away from their cast, they still can’t shake off their caste. They continue to be considered as dalits, by their Hindu neighbours, even though they are no longer Hindus. They are perpetually caught between the devil and the deep sea. You have probably never heard of something like Backward Caste Christians (BCC), or Backward Caste Muslims (BCM), have you ?
Also, you made a naive assertion, that by changing name one can change his caste and I have only pointed out that, had it been the case, there wouldn’t have been any caste around – meaning, it doesn’t. By saying that in spite of existence of scientific education, superstitions can’t be removed from the psyche, you are essentially saying, that by changing name, the caste system can’t be removed, thereby contradicting your own assertion, bolstering mine.
This is another example of how you argue, word vs word. The context becomes irrelevant to you.
Read post#70, “Economic reservation better”
Another example of how blindly you just argue, only for argument’s sake.
As per NSSO 1999-2000 report, the percentage of population living under poverty level are:
ST – 46 in rural, 35 in urban
SC – 36 in rural, 38 in urban
OBC – 27 in rural, 29 in urban
Hindu Upper Class – 12 in rural, 9 in urban.
B. Or, bring down the level of inequality.
c. Law exists, but hardly implemented.
Second, read that example, one more time.
The whole point of the example was that the so called “merit” is a farce. Person scoring 19,000th rank would be considered not so meritorious compared to the ones who are, say within top 100. It is irrelevant, if he is dalit or general class. Now, if this dude is not a dalit, but a general class, he still gets admission to a college. A private, sucky one. However, if this dude is a dalit, he also gets admission to a college. A better college, due to reservation. In the former scenario, no question about merit will be raised. But in the later scenario, question of merit will be raised, just because, he is taking the route of reservation. In both the cases, though, they are of same merit.
Strange, here you find, "past performance" to be adequate to break tie. But when I suggested this very factor to be considered to determine reservation, you went into a severe seizure.
Really, you think its only because of us that the world knows about casteism. Did you know that a form reservation on the basis of caste, existed at least 30 good years before our independence. That makes the existence of this system even older than our country.
If you claim, that you got to know about casteism only because of reservation issue, then you were living under a rock. That is your problem, not mine.
I told you, you are not good with metaphors. I understand, policeman is the metaphor for forward class, and the rape victim is for, backward class. What you do not know, as you have previously claimed bliss in ignorance, is there exists something called Rape Trauma Syndrome. Women need serious attention just to get over it and to bring them into normal life. Rape Trauma is the effect of rape, a criminal offence. The systematic oppression of the backward class, is in a way equivalent to this trauma. This oppression is the effect of caste system, a social crime. Just as a rape victim needs to be treated with much sensitivity and care, the socially oppressed needs a helping hand, with equal sensitivity. That’s what reservation does.
Reservation, doesn’t seek to punish the perpetrators, because that is a separate issue – issue of law and order, outside the scope of reservation. It is adequately addressed through laws, more precisely Criminal Procedure Code. Like, discriminating against a person on basis of race, caste, creed or religion is a criminal offence under penal code. There is also Atrocities Act.
If you had read post #70, “the purpose of reservation”, your query would have been answered. But as always, you need to be spoon fed.
It is actually a shame, that an educated person call the improvement of a rape victim, as “some theoretical”.
That teacher was punished. Laws exist.
Do you expect me to review an entire web page ? This would require separate thread. May be someday I will get around to do that. In any case it is irrelevant.
Read post #70, “Blame the incorrect interpretation of the “varna” system”
Which Parashurama are you talking here? The one that I know of, is a mythical character. Are now basing your arguments on myths. And which era of Kshatriyas are you talking of ? As far as I know, men have been fighting ever since they settled down, first for territory and women and then for money.
By brahminism, I meant the rise of the Brahmins, circa 8 century BCE, where, every aspect of life got governed by the dictates of these Brahmins. The reason why historians call that “brahminism” (some call it “vedic brahminism”) is because, it was during that time, that the various texts got interpreted, in the way that the barhmins wanted to, for their benefit ,and got imposed on the society. It was during that time, that all the evils in Hindu society that you see today, got certified by the Brahmins. (It is incidentally the era that saw the demise of Buddhism as well.)
Funny part is, post after post, you have tried to say, that Brahmins, the fake ones, misinterpreted the varna system. But when I used a different terminology to say almost the same thing, you started to question the veracity of my arguments. Not only that, you have gone so far to even reject brahminism, not knowing that you are actually refuting your own argument. You say now, it is a result of “misunderstandings”. Previously, and again later you claimed of misinterpreting the scripts. Now can you tell me who misinterpreted or misunderstood the texts, given the fact that only Brahmins were qualified to interpret the Vedas. And when did this happen ?
A simple change in nomenclature tripped you over. Clearly, you are neither reading things in the right context nor are you debating. You are just arguing for argument’s sake. It also shows the vacuity of your arguments.
I really don’t know how to answer that. Once you are born into a caste, you will always be considered to belong to that caste, no matter what name you adopt. That’s how the society at large perceives cast system. By changing name, you just change your identity. You don’t change the perception of the society.
Besides, you are probably not aware, that even though the dalits are converting to run away from their cast, they still can’t shake off their caste. They continue to be considered as dalits, by their Hindu neighbours, even though they are no longer Hindus. They are perpetually caught between the devil and the deep sea. You have probably never heard of something like Backward Caste Christians (BCC), or Backward Caste Muslims (BCM), have you ?
You tell me. You are the one who is expecting that “injecting” correct interpretation of varna system, into the education, will make everything fine and dandy. And here you are claiming, rather admitting, that “the presence of science and modern thoughts” do not prevent “the superstitions and all the marriages of children to dogs and frogs”. You are providing counter arguments to your own arguments. Hilarious.
Also, you made a naive assertion, that by changing name one can change his caste and I have only pointed out that, had it been the case, there wouldn’t have been any caste around – meaning, it doesn’t. By saying that in spite of existence of scientific education, superstitions can’t be removed from the psyche, you are essentially saying, that by changing name, the caste system can’t be removed, thereby contradicting your own assertion, bolstering mine.
This is another example of how you argue, word vs word. The context becomes irrelevant to you.
I am not defining ALL sufferings as result of caste. I am defining only those sufferings that result from caste. I have made a clear distinction between discrimination arising from economic backwardness, and the discrimination that arises, specifically due to caste. Don’t project your inability to make such a distinction.
Read post#70, “Economic reservation better”
I thought, “majority” means maximum. It is beyond me, how can more than ONE be in majority. If backward class is in majority, under which law of statistics, would Brahmins and kshatryias, also be a part of majority.
Another example of how blindly you just argue, only for argument’s sake.
As per NSSO 1999-2000 report, the percentage of population living under poverty level are:
ST – 46 in rural, 35 in urban
SC – 36 in rural, 38 in urban
OBC – 27 in rural, 29 in urban
Hindu Upper Class – 12 in rural, 9 in urban.
Exactly how does, non-existence of STs in Delhi, bolsters your point i.e. “to eradicate the root cause of the problem”, unless you are implying the physical removal of backward class from cities. That STs are not there, in Delhi, has historical reasons. But given your bliss, in ignorance, I expect comments like these.
You are kidding me. Over 70% of SC and 80% of ST live in rural areas and you are basing your judgment on your exclusive city experience. If you are “suffering” due to information, then it is your problem, that you prefer living in a cave.
To quote Andre Beteille,
“Today, the Constitution of India provides a blueprint for an egalitarian society. The Constitution is not based on the premise of hierarchy, but on the premise of equality. But of course, you do not just erase or cancel out age-old inequalities simply by adopting new principles in a Constitution. So what else has to be done in order to reduce the inequalities of the past? This is what affirmative action or positive discrimination addresses itself to. The object is to reduce the level of inequality in a society which has had a hierarchical order over a very long period of time. Affirmative action or positive discrimination was not the only major programme adopted when the country became independent and created a Constitution based on the premise of equality. For example, there was a massive programme of agrarian reform which was also designed to give greater thrust to the pursuit of equality. I would say that these were the two main programmes – agrarian reform and affirmative action – designed to improve the conditions of what came to be known as the backward classes in Indian society.”
Mr Andre Beteille, is a vocal anti-quota activist. He, along with Sam Petroda, resigned from the Knowledge Committee in 2006, to protest against, govt’s decision to increase quota.
Ideal definitions? Where ? Which one? Contradictory to its purpose ? Where is the data ? Tamil Nadu experience is just the opposite of what you have argued so far. Success of the American system of affirmative action, is another example.
Yes, I do. But do you ?
So now, SC/ST, OBCs status as backward classes is “myth”. Because of your Delhi experience. Wonderful.
What are you babbling here. No body gives any right to anybody. Some rights are just fundamental, which you get just by being born, e.g. freedom. Indian constitution further guarantees the right to education. You and I are stealing that right, in the name of caste. It is because, that there rights are being denied, the govt. has the reservation policy, to ensure, that they get their rights. The deniers are indeed punished, not substantially though. (Most of the cases of atrocities aren’t registered with the police, most of those which are registered aren’t dealt with)
And city experience exactly corresponds to rural life, where the substantial portion of these people live. Right. Just because you have seen some ray-ban wearing, bike wielding, mall hopping dalits, the majority, living in the rural areas, facing discrimination, automatically gets nullified. So govt. should now on base its policy on what the city dwellers are thinking and doing, and forget, the remaining close to 90% of the people. You would probably not even know, how condescending it sounds.
And I humbly request you to go through the census data of 2001 and NSSO report 2004-2005.
No. Not at all.
A. Reservation ensures that.
B. Or, bring down the level of inequality.
c. Law exists, but hardly implemented.
First, your assumption about my assumption is just that, your assumptions. Not mine.
Second, read that example, one more time.
The whole point of the example was that the so called “merit” is a farce. Person scoring 19,000th rank would be considered not so meritorious compared to the ones who are, say within top 100. It is irrelevant, if he is dalit or general class. Now, if this dude is not a dalit, but a general class, he still gets admission to a college. A private, sucky one. However, if this dude is a dalit, he also gets admission to a college. A better college, due to reservation. In the former scenario, no question about merit will be raised. But in the later scenario, question of merit will be raised, just because, he is taking the route of reservation. In both the cases, though, they are of same merit.
Strange, here you find, "past performance" to be adequate to break tie. But when I suggested this very factor to be considered to determine reservation, you went into a severe seizure.
Who do you think is affecting the dalit ?
You really think, that relaxation of SAT scores impedes completion at Harvard ? Or just arguing for argument’s sake ? You just don’t know how to fit this Harvard syndrome in your convoluted scheme of things.
Do you have any clue how IITs and IIMs recruit. Does anybody know about their recruitment policies ?
Lets assume there is no reservation. Do you still suggest that everyone would get admission to all colleges. Would you still blame that “a middle class or rich guy” faced social injustice, just because he didn’t get admission. Infrastructural limitations can hardly be called social injustice. That was one point that I had raised earlier.
Not sure I got the context of “denying” vs “denial”.
Again, exception.
Don’t know where to begin. Without a “threshold” how does one determine where to stop ? If “income sources of family” is made the criteria, how does one determine, which “income source” requires financial aide. Also, how do you measure “desperation” ?
Elaborate.
I have not. But it is irrelevant to the discussion.
How does reservation create “certified categories” and how are they dangerous.
Eradicating the “root cause” is not the scope of reservation. Its scope is reducing the level of inequality that exists due to a couple of thousand years of oppression, by ensuring certain rights. Its like expecting a sledgehammer to work like a spade.
As of now, you haven’t been able provide single data to back up your accusation. While data, contradicting you, exist. If “equal completion” and “the spirit of merit” were hampered, then Harvard today wouldn’t have been what it is. Then in Tamil Nadu, wouldn’t have registered so many backward class in the merit list.
So ? Whats the point ?
You are neither good at constructing metaphors, nor are you cable enough to understand one. On second thought, it is because you don’t understand metaphors, you can’t construct one.
Where ?
And when are you going to sample the rural India ?
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mediator
Technomancer
I think you forgot that Britishers were there in our country practising "Divide and rule" of all forms. This again shows how much you shy from reading the distortions and misunderstanding I presented. Try to read atleast once.karnivore said:
*www.hinduwisdom.info/articles_hinduism/283.htm
And I told you a 1000 times that you are really bad at logic.karnivore said:
My example of policeman was to SHOWCASE how you are IGNORING the root cause of the problem. It seems you have made a habit to deliberately insert the cast factor. She could have been a dalit or a brahmin. She could have been rich or poor. You have assumed a lot of incorrect factors it seems that clouds your vision of the picture AS A WHOLE. We need to "eradicate" the the very cause, the very perception that becomes the "start" of the crime, so as to bring STRICT discipline so that the "start disappears". And so, ONCE again, you have NEGLECTED the root cause and telling us the definitions and consequences of the actions.
We want to stop the rape in general, and you are talking of the cast. She could have been a foreigner, a chinese, a black, an alien. Read the example again!
I told you to classify and differentiate between "actions and reactions, system and the external factors influencing that system". And hence once again you are flawed in your logic.
And thats what I'm exactly saying. Instead of punishing the perpetrators or removing the "root cause", it is simply defining the line darker and discrminating against the merit i.e it is creating more problems and has become one of the factors of BRAIN DRAIN.karnivore said:
Only when media stepped in? Is the teacher punished everywhere where media is blind? Remember, law can only help when its boundaries are reached. If policeman is not registering the complaint, inspite of steps taken for dalit improvements, then what can one do? Shouldn't we be actively and strictly applying those laws? While a poor dalit or a poor man is "denied" of his right, the rich dalit or rich man can use police as a tool. It again shows how reservation IS NOT ERADICATING THE ROOT CAUSE and instead becomes a flawed system "in concept".karnivore said:
karnivore said:
If your ignorance and the vast amount of repetitions that has a terra firma on something distorted and misunderstood, then I believe it would be really wise "to review the entire web page". If you think it is irrelevant, then I think you are only trolling here. The line in bolds only shows that..karnivore said:
1. You are completely ignorant and the VARNA system
2. You are reluctant to read about the truth.
3. You like to "follow" from the reads of the ignorant critics only. I wonder if you dodged the enlightenment about Max Mueller, Griffith etc also.
Treat him as a mythical character if you like. I have no qualms. But it seems you are a "firm believer" in the distorted cast system, as so obvious from your reluctance to know the truth about it.karnivore said:
And by kshatriyaism, I meant the same.karnivore said:
The funny part is that you don't even understand the meaning of a brahmin. A Brahmin who distorts the scriptures for his own selfish agendas IS NOT A BRAHMIN BY KARMA.karnivore said:
First, No body knows "when" Vedas orginated. The scriptures tell that they were passed orally.
Second, Vedas are known to be compiled in "written form" around 5000 B.C.
Third, manusmriti is estimated to be composed near about 200 AD, Yajnavalkya Dharma Sutra in 350 AD, Mitaksara in 1100 AD, Parasar Smriti in 1300 AD and Dayabhag in 1500 AD.
Fourth, Vedas clearly talk of Varna system by karma. Go read the link. It has distortions clearly busted!!
Fifth, Manusmriti itself yields supremacy to Vedas and vedas overrides everything in it.
Sixth, The era of corrupt brahmins agrees with your statement i.e "the rise of the Brahmins, circa 8 century BCE", i.e the era when manusmriti was compiled.
Once again, you clarified that you know nothing about the distortions, mistranslatons and misundertsandings of the scriptures. Try to read the link, so as to save me and yourself and everyone else who is getting bored of reading the repetitions and the flawed theories ("by birth") which again give rise to "super flawed theories" (reservation).
Funny, instead of improving your posts after admitting of your mistake of not reading the source itself, you are actually accusing me?karnivore said:
I know about the discriminations in other faiths and I understand your point. But it seems you don't realise that "how" these dalits are "availed" everything when their "economic status improves". The "root cause of the problem" and the "sense of perception and habit of looking down upon" remains the same "for other dalits", or I would like to say "other poor people". The scenario in Delhi completely busts your belief of "born into caste, always a caste". If Delhi can succeed, then so can the whole of India. It only shows how pessimistic you are, while I'm showing optimism and even stating the steps to deal with it.karnivore said:
And once again, your post clearly shouts HOW YOU ARE IGNORING THE ROOT CAUSE which become irrespective of cast. A poor is discrminated irrespective of his/her cast, while the rich njoys the facilties and mocks the laws.
Wrong again! All I'm saying is that the "awareness" hasn't reached the point, the point that I have been "championing" all along. Or did you forget that?karnivore said:
The "awareness" of science has not reached the "remote corners" of India where children are married to dogs and frogs and similarly the awareness or the truth of the varna system is invisible to the masses who most of the times "like to follow the corrupt pandits" and exhibit the "herd behaviour". It is this very "awarness" that I was talking to "inject" into NCERT and showcase by media.
And again you proved how bad you are at logic.karnivore said:
A person BCD asks and "only asks", "How can science explain everything?" and CDE says, "You are saying Science can't explain everything". Understand your flaw?
All I said => if cast was a major factor and by birth was a part of "social discrmination", then "what stopped them from changing surnames"??? The next point is again about awareness!
And thats why asked what a about a poor Non-OBC,non-SC/ST person who is "denied" a hospital admission, respect from police etc? Clearly, the "ideals" and "concepts" of economic and social backwardness mixed with reality has blinded and confused you. A socially backward "tagged" person 'may or may not' be "socially discrminated". Whereas an economically backward person is "denied", "discrminated" and "treated inferior" most of the times.karnivore said:
I guess its the banner of "below poverty level" that I was talking of that many brahmins and kshatriyas also do come under and aren't exclusive of it. Is reservation applicable to all of them? If no why such partiality? If yes, then again it shows how reservation is drawing the boundaries further, creating more and more categories, cast defined and then "certificate/tagged" defined IGNORING THEROOT CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM.karnivore said:
If you don't have a valid point, then simply stop.karnivore said:
Firstly, For even a teenager knows how people from "all walks, all regions, all faiths etc" are entering Delhi like atleast 1000 per day for various reasons. They come and get dissolved in the chaos of the city. Those who discrminated, breath the air, get used to it, demolarise and stop discrminating and become part of the captial. Those who do are in turn looked down upon for their "discrminatory" behaviour and hence it becomes the first step in "eradication of the root cause". Here also, "most" of the times, a person is discrminated only when he is poor.
Delh is the crime capital of India too. A maid is not slapped or raped because she is a dalit. Police doesn't checks the complete family history before doing discrmination or taking goose instead of "challans". If you have political backing, police is at your knees. If you are rich, police behaviour is seen. If you are poor, police becomes a wolf. ALL of that => IRRESPECTIVE of cast i.e the factor of "cast" is almost null. But the "finance factor" is BIG and Real!!
Secondly, imagining and confusing "the spread of awareness, application of strict norms and laws in the society for the eradication of the root cause etc", with "physical removal of the backward class" agains states the bad logic arising from bad comprehension in your post. When did I exactly stated the "removal part" that you even imagined of it?
So once again, you add to the backlog of your flaws.
First, my point was => Why should Delhities suffer from this is stupid reservation crap, if other areas face the problem? Why should delhities know about it? To play the games of "you are dalit, I'm brahim"?karnivore said:
Second, if Delhi shows better conditions, then so can other areas. Can we atleast try? "The historical account" that you stated is like a null argument as Delhities have a large portion of people from "UP" too, some from Rajasthan, ah well in general, people from all those areas where "cast system" is visible in full glory.
1. Political exploitation of castkarnivore said:
2. Exploitation of reservation system
3. Merit discrimination. (Should we get reservation "for" merit also" ?)
4. Removing some discrmination, by creating further discrmination and ignoring "root cause of the problem"?
Aren't you already ashamed?
Sourcearticle said:
Firstly, it is not necessary that all the anti-reservationists be speaking the same point. So if you think by quoting an anti-reservationist I'm gonna agree, then dream on. "Reason" and "Reason well"!! Logic and the let equality prevail.
Next, If we go by the "data", then reservation should have been "decreased". It should have been reviewed. Why hasn't been it reviewed? Why has it been increased instead?? If it is increasing does it means that the so called "socially discrminated" ones are rising in numbers? Is it a vicious circle? Are we implementing reservation to create more "socially backward" people?? Do you understand the flawed reality??
So, Some talks of equality? Its a bad joke, nothing else!
Read the post and the data above which shows how the contagious flu is spreading!karnivore said:
Tamil Nadu system has become like an exception. A competition is said to be working when the people fight on "equal terms". Even if "majority of people" fight on equal terms, then also it is competition, but not really in true sense. It becomes flawed. Since majority in the case of T.N is itself the privileged ones i.e greater than 60%, the competition is between the priviledged ones. But again not a real competition. And hence I believe the situation in T.N is reverse, where upper class is "under privileged" and "has to work hard". And hence Tamil Nadu is actually "discrminating" in a far worse manner and IGNORING THE ROOT CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM COMPLETELY.
Again a lapse on ur part! I never said "SC/St/OBC" is a myth. The statement => "ALL SC/ST/OBC are backward classes", is wrong and is a myth!!karnivore said:
What I'm stating is that "why a poor irrespective of cast is denied that right"? And why is it that the same poor, irrespective of cast, "when he becomes financially sound" is availed all his natural right ?karnivore said:
You speak of data, like some analyst disconnected from reality sitting in front of your cooler sipping iced tea, and demanding "data" all the time to judge reality. Rememer an american can never present the problem of an Indian village in the same way that a person from the same village can. American would need "data", while the villager "knows" the reality. And now I feel like you lied about your "little tours" in remote corners of India.
It simply shows the flaw of reservation. But you don't see it. Right? If city experience does not corresponds to rural experience then why such a bullcrap is implemented in city? Further you did not answer my question!! here it is again...karnivore said:
Care to answer?mediator said:
I wonder why behind the mask of "justice", you are talking of injustice all the way amd ignoring the root cause of the problem. I hope you won't ask the meaning of the "Root cause" now.
Have you even wondered how bad a child who get good marks, feels when a reserved ones who got lower marks get through? ONce again the sachar report, mandal commision and the cenus data do not show "IF THE ROOT CAUSE AND THE SENSE OF PERCEPTION AND DISCRIMINATION" has been lowered. Further, They are apathatic to the general class student who is financially unstable. I guess you forgot how I started and you need to read back the entire debate.karnivore said:
A. Agreed!karnivore said:
B. You are joking and discrminating against merit.
C. You finally understand!
Its quite common when a person wants a computer stream which he is getting in DCE but a mechanical stream in IIT, he goes to DCE to pursue his choice. He can do that "irrespective of his cast" and nobody denies him. In ur example, What crime did the "general class" student commit that he "does not get that better college"? And why are you assuming, the general class student gets private college? Have you taken it for granted that the general class student is financially sound? Have to taken it for granted that the dalit for "economically backward" and "socially discrminated"?karnivore said:
In the former, the merit is being practiced "normally" without any external factors affecting it. In latter, the reservation crap "act as an external factor" and affects the "merit" and discriminates against it. Both the cases are NOT THE SAME. First one, is "conceptually the key" for an institution to give the seats. Whereas the second one, is actually a mockery of that concept and affecting it, discrminating against it.
Likewise, the "concept" for filtering the students to admission level is also the number of "criterias" like 60% in boards. Is any institution "denying" the right to "entrance exam"??
Let me ask, did you enjoy reservation all your life that you are so ignorant on merit? Did you EVER face competition in studies to know the value of competition and merit?
Reservation is "acting" on the first layer of admission, whereas the "past performance" in my statement is acting on the second layer, a layer when both "dalit and general class" possess the same score. The second layer, i.e during a tie, can also be based on the "age" i.e who is older. If financial help is given to the dalit, then he can perform better than general class one not only in the tie i.e past performance, or GDs, but even during the admission round.karnivore said:
AP: Village labourer cracks IIT entrance
article said:
Calling my example as exception, you have proved once again how much you lied about your "little tours" and incapability to face the reality.
Now try to call all of these as exceptions too....
Bihar Village Churns Out 100 IIT toppers
Like I said, you are only fooling yourself.
Higher casts? Does that mean all of the higher casts? Does that mean all of the dalits are affected. Does that mean every single higher cast is affecting every single dalit? If some higher casts are affecting some dalits or lets say plenty of dalits, then shouldn't that root cause of the problem be eradicated and action should be taken against that "some higher cast"?karnivore said:
This VIEW remains ABSOLUTELY ABSENT IN ALL OF YOUR POSTS, in terms of laws and awareness.
Once again you have shown that you are ignorant on merit. I would rather find my place in an institute that is built on the grounds of "competition", than "reservation". Even in many institutes the passing marks are diff. and relaxed for "reserved ones". So even the completion factor is non-adherent to the reality. and hence your logic is again flawed.karnivore said:
It again shows how merit has been affected by a perverted external factor like reservation.
Read their brochure, for I bet you haven't even done that. They don't "deny" a dalit from taking an exam.karnivore said:
If you stop talking of the reservation be it on economic backwardess or social backwardness, then other is bound to stop talking of the terminologies "connected" to it.karnivore said:
Do you know anything about the income tax? Why higher income group pays more taxes and why lower salaried pay low accordingly? The same logic is what I am talking of and thats how we "measure desperation".karnivore said:
Do you think population of India is static that no new souls will be born into this world, in village, after the implementation of reservation and after some period of time say in decades all the problem will disappear?karnivore said:
1. Reservation leads to the never ending "cast system".
2. Percentage of reservation has gone up. No revision has been made and hence meritocracy has been discrminated even further.
3. It creates a "certified" category of who is "reservation tagged" and "who really competed".
4. Reservation is not remotely helping them buy internet connection or a computer, books, or anything that is used to do practicals and homework. Read the story of an IITian (A.P) once again.
5. A system that is divorced from competition and denying a "holistic development" of a student, I guess, is really "not giving" him what is needed. Development of personality and speaking manners are a part of education.
6. More souls are born, and the "root cause of the problem" remains the same. Brahmins are pictured as monsters and hence society starts looking down upon them. Look at yourself alone, saying all of it started with "Brahminism". Have you ver wondered it might lead to a reverse situation, where Brahmin might be discrminated in future?
7. Again, what about a poor general category student who got higher marks, but a quota student got the seat?
First, quoting manusmriti, then exploring the "by birth" in it and now this? I think you should really stop for its wise if YOU HAVE NO IDEA. I will enlighten you in my next post about it, if you still show your ignorance and reluctance. A wise decision would be to read it yourself.karnivore said:
If the scope is to reduce inequality then why has reservation been increased?????????????????????? Why are Delhities made to suffer inequality under the banner of equality? The bold clearly tells, how useless is the reservation then. If the SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM is not dealt with, then how we can we really stop the problem???karnivore said:
Do you even understand how "contadicting" and flawed your own statements are becoming? I believe we should continue this for over the next 2 months.
It seems you don't even know what your data speaks of. Your data is not "contradicting" a single point I'm putting forward.karnivore said:
The socially discrminated one gets facilties, and jobs. He gets "financially sound". Is he discriminated? Thus financial improvement removes his social backwardness. While his village "continues" to face the discrmination. More babies are born, who shall face that discrmination. And hence, the "root cause of the problem" i.e discrmination, remains IGNORED.
My idea, is to develop whole village, spread awarness and implement "strict" laws to reduce/eradicate discrmination. Unfortunately, you are not interested in any real justice , but only playing protagonist on the flawed system of reservation which leads to more and more discrimination and even saying that "Reservation is not about removing the root cause"??
Indians thought of a system to provide justice to the people who were discrminated on a "root cause". So our bright sages pointed towards reservation and to facilitate the so called backward people. And now you say, "Reservation is not about eradicating the root cause"?? Hilarious!
I seems you think that the very thought that invoked reservation was not about the "root cause". And hence you are flawed again.
The point is "past performance" that you have been championing all along. I hope you understand, aptitude is different that mugging answers!! Some institutes admit people on the basis of "aptitude", while some "on who scored better in boards".karnivore said:
IITs are the ones, where you are tested on your aptitude and intelligence. And a person who is mugging most of the time in schools may or may not do well in IITs. And hence your point of "past performace" is also flawed. It doesn't mean merit is flawed. Merit is not really past performance. I hope you know that. How one scored in IIT or an exam is merit. How well person did in past, is "past performance". Merit may become a part of past performance, while past performance is not really a subset of merit. It doesn't extrapolate to merit.
A how a student performed in nursery is irrelevant. But what relevant is the percentile he got in IIT/IIM to get admission into IIT/IIM. This is how IIT/IIMs "select students". BIMTECH has its own procedure. AFAIK, 10% weightage on CAT score, 30% on GD, 30% on PI etc.
I think you should take some competetive exams and know more about merit for it seems you are clueless of what merit actually means.
You are the one who is talking of data all the time, not me! You are the one who is oblivious to the stories of 100s of village children who cracked IIT, not me! So I think you should stop making sarcastic statements.karnivore said:
And once again, I can only request you to read the light on varna system, before repeating the same old ignorance. Talking of equality without cutting out the source of inequality? How absurd!
And yes do read, post after a month if it takes time. Its not even a read of 15 minutes though. Your own posts might be longer in comparison.
*www.hinduwisdom.info/articles_hinduism/283.htm
karnivore
in your face..
mediator
Instead of quoting and responding to each para, let me answer the 6 basic points that you have raised. I will respond to some of your rants, in the next post.
1.What is the use of reservation, if can’t solve “the SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM” ?
This expectation of reservation to solve “the SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM” comes from incorrect understanding of affirmative action, or, positive discrimination. Affirmative action attempts to bring down the level of equality that exists due to actions in the past. For example, in the US, the native Indians, were systematically denied access to civil amenities, which resulted in this ethnic component of the population to socially fall behind of the general population. The conditions of the blacks were even worse. Much later, actually, just 40 years ago, the US started this programme of affirmative action, where, these backward ethnic groups, were given concessions in terms of education and job security. But this action is not compulsory on any education institute or enterprise. They are free to choose not to implement. But still they do. For example, when the press in US, after a survey realized, that blacks were severely under represented in their industry, they voluntarily created a reservation of 9% exclusively for blacks. Today blacks have a fair share of representation in press. Universities like, Harvard and MIT, started accepting scores much lower that the general population. (Only a fool will claim that this has resulted in merit discrimination at Harvard). Affirmative actions, in one form or the other, exist in many other countries as well, for example Brazil, Canada, China, Japan etc.
Discrimination, on whatever basis, is the CAUSE and backwardness is one of its EFFECT. Two are entirely different things, and require different solutions. Affirmative action, addresses the EFFECT, while the CAUSE is addressed through a combination of laws and awareness. Every country, even in India, adequate anti-racist (or if you may, anti-casteist for India e.g. Prevention of Atrocities Act or Protection of Civil Rights Act etc.) exist. Lack or inefficiency of enforcement of such law is actually a problem of governance. Improvement on governance will not only allow discrimination to die out, it will actually make civil life for all a lot more smooth. Awareness can be increased through education and partially through affirmative action, itself. What affirmative action does, in addition to lowering the level of inequality, is that, it creates awareness through the process of familiarity. Multi-ethnic campuses go a long way in improving inter community interactions, which in turn increases awareness. Education alone is not enough. It has its limits. A few months back there was survey that revealed that, of 1100 PhD holders, who were surveyed in India, about 49% believed that prayers work, while 38% believed that god can perform miracles. That is a scary result, by any standard. Not sure, if I can trust this education system to completely remove the prejudices. But it is not unique to India. A similar survey in US revealed similar results, confirming the theory of many sociologists, that up-bringing is key to such prejudices. Education, doesn’t always help, at least, it is for now, not helping the majority.
It may be argued that removing the CAUSE, would remove the EFFECT. Although it is true in principle, but is many orders of magnitude difficult to completely remove the CAUSE of casteism within an acceptable time frame. Concentrating solely on removal of the CAUSE and ignoring the cumulative EFFECT of the past, would mean, letting the EFFECT to linger for some more time, at least till the CAUE is completely eradicated. Since we do not know, how long it would take to purge the CAUSE, it runs the risk of further deterioration than alleviation of the EFFECTED.
Therefore, the actions to remove the CAUSE must run parallel to removing the EFFECT. Reservation, does the later. Additionally, it keeps the discrimination, where it exists, in check. And we are debating reservation, which throws the actions to remove the CAUSE, outside the scope of out debate. The sociologists in India, almost unanimously agree that some form of affirmative action is needed for the SC/STs and OBCs. Where they differ, is the method of implementing such action.
2.When in city, the discrimination is not so acute, then “why such a bullcrap is implemented in city” ?
Firstly, GoI can’t discriminate between regions. If it has drawn up a policy for the entire country, then it can’t leave out the cities. That will be anti constitutional.
Secondly, most of the schools, colleges and institutes are located within the city. Even after 62 years of independence, the situation remains almost unchanged. Although, educational infrastructure in rural areas, have indeed improved, it is still not near enough to meet the requirement. Keeping cities outside the scope, will be like keeping majority of the facilities outside the scope of reservation, which will defeat the purpose of reservation only.
Thirdly, keeping the city outside the scope of reservation, is like denying reservation to the backward people, just because they live in cities. Approximately about 10% live in city. Most of them are engaged in menial profession of sweepers, cobblers, etc. They may not be as discriminated against as their counterparts are in the rural areas, but they still belong to the same pool, created due to sever oppression in the past. Excuse of living in the city doesn’t take away their social backwardness.
Fourthly, if the system of reservation is applied only in the rural areas, and urban or semi-urban areas are kept out of the system, it will cause severe migration. People, who would feel that they can’t get into regular institutes or colleges, through open competition, will prolly move to the nearby city. This will cause, immense pressure on these cities’ infrastructure. Similiarly, people who should have been eligible for the reservation, but is denied so simply because they live in city, will move to the areas that enjoy reservation. This will result in severe demographic change and lead to polarization of communities.
3.Reservation is “discrminating against the merit” ?
The question of “discrimination against the merit”, is actually a farcical argument. As long as our education system promotes mediocrity by means of private colleges, that accept admission through capitation fees, as long as there are NRI quotas or ministerial quotas, which are virtually auctioned off to the highest bidder, this argument will fall flat. AIMS has an inhouse quota of 25% for its PG courses, which, in most cases are filled with students with much less marks than those of external students.
4.“What about a poor general category student who got higher marks, but a quota student got the seat?”
This is actually an argument from emotion. There will always a student who will not be admitted into a college, simply because the cut off mark is higher than what he has secured. This is due to infrastructural limitation, reservation has nothing to do with it. Had there been no reservation, a student below the cut-off mark would still have not been admitted. Blaming it on reservation is just being ingenious.
This argument is also an argument from ignorance. All major nationalized banks provide student loans, without any security. The installment payment begins from the year, in which he gets his salary. Income tax, gives a deduction u/s 80I, of IT Act, on such payment, for 8 consecutive year. The poor student can take out a loan and get admitted to a private college.
5.Reservation is promoting inequality ?
Not by a long shot. By saying, that reservation promotes inequality, one simply assumes, that the socio-economic equality exists, and that caste based inequality doesn’t. The fact is that caste based discrimination has pushed these people to the fringe of the society. For generations they have been denied access to civil amenities, just like the native Indians in US, and blacks in SA, particularly in education. Most of them depend upon the upper caste for their livelihood.
Mandal commission used 11 criteria to measure backwardness:
Claiming, that reservation promotes inequality, is akin to dismissing this finding as well.
6.“If we go by the "data", then reservation should have been "decreased". It should have been reviewed. Why hasn't been it reviewed? Why has it been increased instead?? If it is increasing does it means that the so called "socially discrminated" ones are rising in numbers? Is it a vicious circle? Are we implementing reservation to create more "socially backward" people?”
I am not sure, what data you are referring to, cause data shows just the opposite. For example, total number of people who have done graduation or anything above, is 37,670,147. For SCs, the number is 2,316,640 and for STs, the number is 761,179. In other words, of the total graduates, only 6.15% are SCs and 2% are STs. (I don’t have OBC data). If anything, this reservation has to continue.
The reservation system is reviewed on regular basis. It was done in 2006, which later on, resulted in an unrest among the misguided students. The reason it was increased, was purely politics. Even if we discount the political angle to the increase, it still doesn’t mean that the “so called "socially discrminated" ones are rising in numbers” beyond the normal rate of population growth. They are so large in number, SC and ST together consist of close to a fourth of our entire population, and adding OBC, it will be close to three fourth, and the reservation is so disproportionate to the size of their population, that it has created a severe back log, so to say. Census 2001 stands testimony to it.
Instead of quoting and responding to each para, let me answer the 6 basic points that you have raised. I will respond to some of your rants, in the next post.
1.What is the use of reservation, if can’t solve “the SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM” ?
This expectation of reservation to solve “the SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM” comes from incorrect understanding of affirmative action, or, positive discrimination. Affirmative action attempts to bring down the level of equality that exists due to actions in the past. For example, in the US, the native Indians, were systematically denied access to civil amenities, which resulted in this ethnic component of the population to socially fall behind of the general population. The conditions of the blacks were even worse. Much later, actually, just 40 years ago, the US started this programme of affirmative action, where, these backward ethnic groups, were given concessions in terms of education and job security. But this action is not compulsory on any education institute or enterprise. They are free to choose not to implement. But still they do. For example, when the press in US, after a survey realized, that blacks were severely under represented in their industry, they voluntarily created a reservation of 9% exclusively for blacks. Today blacks have a fair share of representation in press. Universities like, Harvard and MIT, started accepting scores much lower that the general population. (Only a fool will claim that this has resulted in merit discrimination at Harvard). Affirmative actions, in one form or the other, exist in many other countries as well, for example Brazil, Canada, China, Japan etc.
Discrimination, on whatever basis, is the CAUSE and backwardness is one of its EFFECT. Two are entirely different things, and require different solutions. Affirmative action, addresses the EFFECT, while the CAUSE is addressed through a combination of laws and awareness. Every country, even in India, adequate anti-racist (or if you may, anti-casteist for India e.g. Prevention of Atrocities Act or Protection of Civil Rights Act etc.) exist. Lack or inefficiency of enforcement of such law is actually a problem of governance. Improvement on governance will not only allow discrimination to die out, it will actually make civil life for all a lot more smooth. Awareness can be increased through education and partially through affirmative action, itself. What affirmative action does, in addition to lowering the level of inequality, is that, it creates awareness through the process of familiarity. Multi-ethnic campuses go a long way in improving inter community interactions, which in turn increases awareness. Education alone is not enough. It has its limits. A few months back there was survey that revealed that, of 1100 PhD holders, who were surveyed in India, about 49% believed that prayers work, while 38% believed that god can perform miracles. That is a scary result, by any standard. Not sure, if I can trust this education system to completely remove the prejudices. But it is not unique to India. A similar survey in US revealed similar results, confirming the theory of many sociologists, that up-bringing is key to such prejudices. Education, doesn’t always help, at least, it is for now, not helping the majority.
It may be argued that removing the CAUSE, would remove the EFFECT. Although it is true in principle, but is many orders of magnitude difficult to completely remove the CAUSE of casteism within an acceptable time frame. Concentrating solely on removal of the CAUSE and ignoring the cumulative EFFECT of the past, would mean, letting the EFFECT to linger for some more time, at least till the CAUE is completely eradicated. Since we do not know, how long it would take to purge the CAUSE, it runs the risk of further deterioration than alleviation of the EFFECTED.
Therefore, the actions to remove the CAUSE must run parallel to removing the EFFECT. Reservation, does the later. Additionally, it keeps the discrimination, where it exists, in check. And we are debating reservation, which throws the actions to remove the CAUSE, outside the scope of out debate. The sociologists in India, almost unanimously agree that some form of affirmative action is needed for the SC/STs and OBCs. Where they differ, is the method of implementing such action.
2.When in city, the discrimination is not so acute, then “why such a bullcrap is implemented in city” ?
Firstly, GoI can’t discriminate between regions. If it has drawn up a policy for the entire country, then it can’t leave out the cities. That will be anti constitutional.
Secondly, most of the schools, colleges and institutes are located within the city. Even after 62 years of independence, the situation remains almost unchanged. Although, educational infrastructure in rural areas, have indeed improved, it is still not near enough to meet the requirement. Keeping cities outside the scope, will be like keeping majority of the facilities outside the scope of reservation, which will defeat the purpose of reservation only.
Thirdly, keeping the city outside the scope of reservation, is like denying reservation to the backward people, just because they live in cities. Approximately about 10% live in city. Most of them are engaged in menial profession of sweepers, cobblers, etc. They may not be as discriminated against as their counterparts are in the rural areas, but they still belong to the same pool, created due to sever oppression in the past. Excuse of living in the city doesn’t take away their social backwardness.
Fourthly, if the system of reservation is applied only in the rural areas, and urban or semi-urban areas are kept out of the system, it will cause severe migration. People, who would feel that they can’t get into regular institutes or colleges, through open competition, will prolly move to the nearby city. This will cause, immense pressure on these cities’ infrastructure. Similiarly, people who should have been eligible for the reservation, but is denied so simply because they live in city, will move to the areas that enjoy reservation. This will result in severe demographic change and lead to polarization of communities.
3.Reservation is “discrminating against the merit” ?
The question of “discrimination against the merit”, is actually a farcical argument. As long as our education system promotes mediocrity by means of private colleges, that accept admission through capitation fees, as long as there are NRI quotas or ministerial quotas, which are virtually auctioned off to the highest bidder, this argument will fall flat. AIMS has an inhouse quota of 25% for its PG courses, which, in most cases are filled with students with much less marks than those of external students.
4.“What about a poor general category student who got higher marks, but a quota student got the seat?”
This is actually an argument from emotion. There will always a student who will not be admitted into a college, simply because the cut off mark is higher than what he has secured. This is due to infrastructural limitation, reservation has nothing to do with it. Had there been no reservation, a student below the cut-off mark would still have not been admitted. Blaming it on reservation is just being ingenious.
This argument is also an argument from ignorance. All major nationalized banks provide student loans, without any security. The installment payment begins from the year, in which he gets his salary. Income tax, gives a deduction u/s 80I, of IT Act, on such payment, for 8 consecutive year. The poor student can take out a loan and get admitted to a private college.
5.Reservation is promoting inequality ?
Not by a long shot. By saying, that reservation promotes inequality, one simply assumes, that the socio-economic equality exists, and that caste based inequality doesn’t. The fact is that caste based discrimination has pushed these people to the fringe of the society. For generations they have been denied access to civil amenities, just like the native Indians in US, and blacks in SA, particularly in education. Most of them depend upon the upper caste for their livelihood.
Mandal commission used 11 criteria to measure backwardness:
Social
1.Castes/classes considered as socially backward by others.
2.Castes/classes which mainly depend on manual labour for their livelihood.
3.Castes/classes where the percentage of married women below 17 is 25% above the state average in rural areas and 10% in urban areas; and that of married men is 10% and 5% above the state average in rural and urban areas respectively.
4.Castes/classes where participation of females in work is at least 25% above the state average.
Educational
5.Castes/classes where the number of children in the age group of 5 to 15 years who never attended school is at least 25% above the state average.
6.Castes/classes where the rate of student drop-out in the age group of 5-15 years is at least 25% above the state average.
7.Castes/classes amongst whom the proportion of matriculates is at least 25% below the state average
Economic
8.Castes/classes where the average value of family assets is at least 25% below the state average.
9.Castes/classes where the number of families living in kachcha houses is at least 25 % above the state average.
10.Castes/classes where the source of drinking water is beyond half a kilometer for more than 50% of the households.
11.Castes/classes where the number of the house-holds having taken a consumption loan is at least 25% above the state average.
What they found was the SC/STs and certain other classes (which they called OBC) failed miserably to pass their criteria. The forward class, i.e. the Hindu Upper Class fared, much much better on these criteria, although they comprised of much less percentage of the total Hindu population. On the basis of this finding they asked for quota for the SC/STs and OBCs. Today, the situation has remained largely unchanged, although positives are slowly trickling in.1.Castes/classes considered as socially backward by others.
2.Castes/classes which mainly depend on manual labour for their livelihood.
3.Castes/classes where the percentage of married women below 17 is 25% above the state average in rural areas and 10% in urban areas; and that of married men is 10% and 5% above the state average in rural and urban areas respectively.
4.Castes/classes where participation of females in work is at least 25% above the state average.
Educational
5.Castes/classes where the number of children in the age group of 5 to 15 years who never attended school is at least 25% above the state average.
6.Castes/classes where the rate of student drop-out in the age group of 5-15 years is at least 25% above the state average.
7.Castes/classes amongst whom the proportion of matriculates is at least 25% below the state average
Economic
8.Castes/classes where the average value of family assets is at least 25% below the state average.
9.Castes/classes where the number of families living in kachcha houses is at least 25 % above the state average.
10.Castes/classes where the source of drinking water is beyond half a kilometer for more than 50% of the households.
11.Castes/classes where the number of the house-holds having taken a consumption loan is at least 25% above the state average.
Claiming, that reservation promotes inequality, is akin to dismissing this finding as well.
6.“If we go by the "data", then reservation should have been "decreased". It should have been reviewed. Why hasn't been it reviewed? Why has it been increased instead?? If it is increasing does it means that the so called "socially discrminated" ones are rising in numbers? Is it a vicious circle? Are we implementing reservation to create more "socially backward" people?”
I am not sure, what data you are referring to, cause data shows just the opposite. For example, total number of people who have done graduation or anything above, is 37,670,147. For SCs, the number is 2,316,640 and for STs, the number is 761,179. In other words, of the total graduates, only 6.15% are SCs and 2% are STs. (I don’t have OBC data). If anything, this reservation has to continue.
The reservation system is reviewed on regular basis. It was done in 2006, which later on, resulted in an unrest among the misguided students. The reason it was increased, was purely politics. Even if we discount the political angle to the increase, it still doesn’t mean that the “so called "socially discrminated" ones are rising in numbers” beyond the normal rate of population growth. They are so large in number, SC and ST together consist of close to a fourth of our entire population, and adding OBC, it will be close to three fourth, and the reservation is so disproportionate to the size of their population, that it has created a severe back log, so to say. Census 2001 stands testimony to it.
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karnivore
in your face..
And you still don’t get the difference between fighting crime – a law and order problem and healing the victim.
One more time. “Discrimination” is your metaphorical rape, while, “reservation” is the metaphorical healing of the victim. “Discrimination”, like the metaphorical rape, must be addressed through law and awareness.
I have not denied that economic discrimination doesn’t exist. I agree, sometimes the line becomes blurred. But, you are completely rejecting that atrocities against backward class happen, just because of their caste, going so far as to say that “the factor of "cast" is almost null”. You are attributing all crimes to economic discrimination. Before filing a FIR, the police needs the name of the victim or the one who is filing. So yes, they get to know what class that victim belongs to. Yes, house maids are sexually molested, because she is a dalit.
If one is poor, there is a whole lot of problem. Add to that the caste factor. And you have got a perfect cocktail there. Here’s some data:
In the year 2004 alone, there were 26,887 reposted cases of crimes against SCs alone. Atrocity incidences accounted for about 33% (4,699) of the total crimes while other crimes accounted for 43%, hurt 14.2%, rape 4% and murder 2.4%. These were all, what we call, hate crimes.
In Maharashtra alone, there were, 4864 cases of crime against SCs, between 2000 and 2006. Only 200 of those faced conviction.
Naïve assessment.
That actually shows rigidity and unwillingness to learn, on your part. I quoted Mr Andre Beteille, to explain the thought process that went into creation of this reservation, i.e. affirmative action or positive discrimination.
Mr Andre Beteille is not anti-reservationist, neither are any social scientists. He, like many others, is against quota method of reservation, not against reservation, per se. He advocates, the American system of open ended reservation, as opposed to our exclusive system of reservation. Since, you haven’t read enough of these sociologists, you don’t get the meaning of affirmative action. You probably don’t even know, how many country operates on the idea of affirmative action. Reservation is not unique to India, quota system is.
Funny assessment. Although the total reservation adds upto 69%, in practice it doesn’t go beyond 49.5%. They have a peculiar method of calculating the absolute numbers. Anything beyond 49.5% would be unconstitutional as per Supreme Court verdict.
Before being an armchair analyst, the least that is expected of you is to have some knowledge of things that you intend to analyze.
This is the million dollar quote. What shall we base our judgment of reality on ?
And the villager gains knowledge, through some divine whisper…
Well boo hoo…
First read the reports, then comment
The argument was of merit. You are now shifting your goal post.
No. Because if they do they will loose license to operate.
Personal question. Anyway, no, I was one of the “fortunates” to be born in a Hindu Upper class. I never needed reservation and reservation never really effected me. Never. And since, we are into personal experience, my personal experience is that only mediocres, who can’t get into better colleges, whine against reservation.
Catch the drift.
Brochure are not made to advertise the soft underbelly of the institutes. They “don’t” deny dalits, because now, they “can’t” deny. Mandal commission found, how these institutes were ingeniously denying dalits, by means of a loophole. These institutes, previously, never used to fulfill the quota. Example, if say, 10 persons were eligible to get admitted through quota, they would admit only say, 3. The remaining seat would be fulfilled from general quota. Some colleges just didn’t fill up any, and admit all general students. This led to the recommendation of freezing the quota, meaning, if quota remains unfulfilled, they shall remain that way.
Guess how IITs recruit ? They themselves don’t know.
Lets see. Of 9 years of professional life, I have been a tax consultant, for 4 years, (3 years as assistant to a senior one), and of 3 years of my apprenticeship, before I got my degree and started my professional life, 1 year has been in the tax department of my firm. Believe me. I know exactly what I am talking about, when I am talking about tax. That tax system is called progressive taxation.
Now does the method of progressive taxation measure “desperation” ?
1. BS
2. Again BS. Learn about Knowledge Commission
3. Unless, you are an employer, how would you know if your dalit neighbor has taken the help of reservation. Or again, as I have asked this to MetalheadGautham, you are just judging by one’s surname. That’s called racism.
4. BS. I would agree, it is not happing thick and fast. But it is happening.
5. Some more BS.
6. Even you called them fake. You can wish as much as you want, history will continue to be same.
I didn’t quote Manu Smriti as part of my argument. Interpretation of verna was never an argument. I quoted to show, the members what their holy texts say. Simple. No need for mental gymnastics.
And what enables him to “get facilties, and jobs” so that he can get "financially sound" ? Some divine intervention I guess.
How do you suppose, you would implement “strict laws” ? How do you suppose to develop whole village, to the extent that economic discrimination is completely eradicated, with the limited resource available to GoI. And how long do you think it will take.
Mental masturbation, only ejaculating confusion of mind. Your score in IIT, or for that matter any exam that you wrote last, becomes a part of your past performance immediately after you finish writing the exam. Just that, it will be your immediate past. A single exam is just a test of your performance on that given day, on those given set of questions. The reason why social scientist ask for result of “nursery”, in your words, in addition of immediate performance, is to judge one’s consitency of performance. This helps those who are genuinely good students, but fared badly due to reasons other than ability.
I didn’t know that it was rocket science.
mediator
Technomancer
Once again putting your "belief" in a new format and starting afresh, you have shown how determined you are to run away from the issue and "reason" with the flow.
1. The discrmination in US isn't exactly analogous to that of India.
2. Do you know anything about "ethnic cleansing of AMerican Indians?" Also, Indian history is much different than American.
3. The cause of the discrmination is the distortion and misunderstanding of "core of Hinduism". Where is such a core in US?
4. If actions in the past are to be considered then, Hindus were "discrminated" and "abused" financially and physcially! Why are we having reservation for muslims then? Where is the Hindu reservation in general?
5. The Indian Institutes are not even free to "decide" about the implementation (from the bold), let alone the increasing percentage of reservation.
6. Where is the reservation in minority institutions? Do Aligarh muslim university and jamia Milia have same kind of resveration for Hindus?
7. We all know how kashmiri Pandits have been killed, discrminated. Do J&k institutes have the same amount of reservation for Hindus?
8. Why are we stressing on EFFECT, when the CAUSE holds much more importance and the primary solution for the problem?
9. Why do most politicians send their children abroad. Why don't they let them suffer in this perverted system? If they like to glorify the system then I believe they should set examples. Why such a hypocrisy?
10. If Affirmative action creates awareness, then why is the reservation increasing? Logically if you think, if that awareness would have been there, then the problem in villages would have been removed far quicker. If people can come in DElhi and forget all the distorted bullcrap in 2 years alone, then a person going back to his village would have educated many people. So is he even getting that "awareness" in the first place. Remember DElhi not practising discrmination doesn't mean it is "aware" of the Varna system.
Remember, Awareness spreads like a wild fire, just like a rumour does!
And so the point of affirmative action creating awarness is a lie to brainwash the mind of innocent and gullible believers.
11. Comparing reservation system with theism is the worst and stupidiest kind of analogy I have seen so far. While theism is not a system, reservation is entirely a system. While the definition of God has many aspects, reservation is a straight concept where nobody is "debating" on the CAUSE which holds a simple key to eradicate the whole "discrmination". Do I even need to talk on Reservation and Theism? It again shows how bad you are at logic.
12. How can you say that "eradicating the CAUSE" is "dificult in an acceptable time frame". Have we even set a time frame? Have we even experimented that we are just opining about its duration?
13. We are debating "reservation" becuse it is a useless tool. It is useless because it is discrminiating against merit and and more and more of people are arising from the "root of cause" who may or may not have been discrminated. Population of India isn't static!!
14. Disassociating the CAUSE FROM EFFECT to deal with a problem, is again the most stupid form of logic I have seen.
If a white shark is trying to kill people in a sea, will you try to save people or simply kill the shark? Remember it will continue to kill people if you don't kill it.
15. Saying reservation deals with the EFFECT you have yourself given the judgement that how useless the whole flawed system is, the system that was developed due to lack of human intelligence to deal with the problem or perhaps to germinate a seed that would tremble the whole foundation of the Indian nation.
Digest this....
*www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1173139
So your point that Reservation deals with the EFFECT only narrows to "facilitation", where he is facilitated to suffer a "much intense" hell.
1. Your point of Delhi not recognising SC/ST becomes null. If many people are coming to delhi, then Delhi which is "not recognising SC/ST" is not "denying" or "discrminating" anything
"on basis of cast". Then why has there been a cast based reservation? You are directly making Delhities suffer for a crime they never commit?
2. Your point that it a probem of village and Delhi is different, becomes flawed automatically. Village remains the same, while the "conceptual distorted crap" and "super crap" based on the former is entering Delhi. Those who might or might not have suffered get the luxury/privilege, while the others i.e meritorous are made to suffer. Further the system is apathetic to those who are poor and come under general class.
3. In your second point, once again you yourself highlight how we are ignoring the CAUSE.
4. Your third point. Since you don't live in Delhi and your point has hopped to "cities being the center of most of the institutes" which I was expecting in this post of yours, have you ever heard of the cases from Delhi where a B.Sc student is pulling a rickshaw? I bet you are oblivious to that also. Such B.Sc students are mostly from "financially" poor families irrespective of cast. These are the ones, who never got any personality development, or money to buy a computer or expensive books.
The reality of the cities and companies is that the company doesn't take anyone who lacks personality i.e manners and way to speak, proper English, proper aptitude and proper understanding of a problem which again is aptitude only. Clearly reservation FAILS to "facilitate" ALL OF THESE. The company hasn't taken the oath to teach you proper English first, taken your aptitude for granted.
5. Your fourth point. The line in the bold contradicts the whole meaning that you tried to expound. How do you define regular institute of colleges? If the city ones are regular ones just because they are out of the system, and rural ones are not because of reservation crap, then does introducing "reservation" in city ones still make them regular? The point of reservation here itself has degraded the repute of the college and hence education.
Further if you think, that "People, who would feel that they can’t get into regular institutes or colleges, through open competition, will prolly move to the nearby city.", then what about the city folks? Where will they move? Outside India? Your point has itself busted/contradicted your own view.
If this is what you call affirmative action, then it is most ridiculous logic I have ever seen.
Further, private college doesn't necearrily means a good college. Students irrespective of cast try to go in good colleges. Who is denying him? If he is denied, the repute of the college goes down. Companies come to reputed colleges and lastly a student is taken by his "worth"!! Where is education system "promoting mediocrity" by means of private college? Care to explain? If it is capitation fees you are talking of, then where is the problem of "discrmination based on cast"???? I think you are only hopping from one absurd point to another which are all flawed.
Obviously, any point which is made in favour of a flawed theory in concept based on flawed assumptions is bound to be flawed.
Neways, Do you even understand the cutoff marks? Had there been no reservation, and lets say the sam cutoff marks for all like 50%. A student who got 45% marks would have been denied. But if that 50% cutoff becomes for general and 40% becomes for reserved, the same student who got 45% marks is "denied", while an Sc/ST who gets even 41% marks is given admission. I don't even understand why I'm discussing this.
Its like you are totally clueless of what reservation is and what its ills are.
Saying that reservation promotes inequality implies => socio-economic equality and cast based inequality may or may not exist. You have taken it for granted that it exists and I'm not saying it exists. I simply "showed" you how it "may or may not" exists.
Saying reservation "facilitates" the "discrminated" implies => You are taking it for granted that Cast based inequality exists "everywhere". You are treating a percentage as a whole, The percentage from which "majority" of students come to cities, as majority of institutes are in cities, which do not practice "cast based discrmination" and hence even that percentage (of discrminated) is reduced.
ALL YOUR POINTS ARE CONTRADICTING EACH OTHER CLEARLY AND CONCEPTUALLY TILL NOW.
2. I believe many of them ride bikes and wear rayban. I bet you would need "data".
3. Does that mean they are discrminated, "denied" entrance by institute?
4. Mechanical Engineering, heavy labour work is usually not for "females". This is from the traditional point of view. Its not about "why many of electricians and mechanics and engineers are mostly men", but "how many females applied" for such a job. Number of girls working late at night in Delhi is lower than men. Do you know anything of rapes in Delhi? So again such a measure is far from reality and thus flawed! And hence it again shows how reality (EFFECT) can vary, if the CAUSE itself is not clear, varies and not controlled!
5. Again you are only discrminating with the student as mentioned in above points. You are mocking him, raising his bar even higher.
6. Dropout can also be because of mental retardation. If a child cannot learn a lesson, and fails in the "primary" cirrculum repeatedly, then what assurance is there that he will "behave" on a cirriculum that is based on the previous?? Do you know anything about calculus and algebra? For that you need to be sound in "elementary mathematics"!!
7. Typical reservation?
8. If its about assets, then why not talk in terms of assets?
9. If its a "kacha house", then lets make it a "pakka house". This again invokes "financial relaxation".
10. I think the souce of drinking water should be moved nearer.
11. Is the loan availed properly and appropriately? Are they afraid to take loan? In general, last time I checked ICICI bank thrashed a man for not fulfilling his loan on time.
Well Mandal commission speaks of "flawed" points to determine backwardness right in front of your eyes. How absurd? And so your argument of stating "mandal commission" for your "belief" goes even higher in the height of illogic.
IF YOU THINK THAT WE ARE DEBATING JUST TO SHOW WHO WINS THE DEBATE, THEN YOU ARE WRONG!!
Imagine a person who couldn't lift 50 Kg of weight in gym, is made to lift 100 KG. You are simply not helping him actively.
Next, if you talk of crime then talk in term of law that is applicable to all. Law is supposed to provide equality and not injustice to the innocent. If its the hate, then eradicate that hate. Bring laws and strictly implement them to punish the discrminator. Once again what about Kasmiri pandits? What about the poor general class Hindu girl who was raped and doesn't come under the banner of "economically backward"??
Flaws, contradictions have teamed up with hypocrisy!!
IF YOU THINK THAT WE ARE DEBATING JUST TO SHOW WHO WINS THE DEBATE, THEN YOU ARE WRONG!!
First you lied about your little tours of Delhi, then you called the story of IITian as an exception and now you are reluctant to believe of the scenario in Delhi. Come to Delhi and seee for yourself. Seeing is believing right??
I have been "forced" to understand the meaning of backward classes in graduation, whether my friend is the tagged ONE or not. It again shows how much awarness you yourself need desperately, let alone the awarness in villages. It is only "facilitating" and "not ending" the whole drama.
2. Learn about reservation status, the increased reservation to 27% that is to be implemented in phases. Again you are oblivious to the reality, now even to the data.
*ibnlive.in.com/news/sc-upholds-obc-quota-keeps-creamy-layer-out/63029-3.html
*www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=132641
3. Thats exactly what happens when you put up a new format and shy from quoting in old fashioned way. You simply "repeat" much that was debated! Go to DU (Delhi University), the biggest university in Delhi and you will yourself come to know of the classes, who is tagged and who is not, who is certified and who is not. These things are not judged by data, but knowing the reality yourself.
4. It is not happening. Did you even understand the story of the IITian?
5. So now you think the system of holistic" development is not a part of education? You think their "discrmintory village" will treat them the manners and the way to speak? Have you forgotten the golden days when the English teacher made us to pronounce the words correctly and told us of our uniform. Almost every teacher speaks of manners and so, the personality development is a major part of school education. Every school child knows this. Every parent knows this. And you are saying "BS".
You think companies will give them the "personality development" course?? Remember personality development doesn't comes in 2 or 3 months, but years!
6. Again a point out of Ignorance. You are not stressing on the CAUSE and without even trying you have given the verdict that history will continue to be the same. How sane is that??
Like I said, Delhi accomodates people from all walks, region,casts etc. And still DElhi doesn't practice "cast based" discrmination in general. History is re-written everyday. You are clearly blinded by your reluctance to accept reality and the confusion from the flawed theory and assumptions!
It seems you are out of words and hence instead of "reasoning" properly" you are putting up two lettered "BS" in many places. Can't face the reality? Or are you saying now new souls are born on earth? You have even invented a new format to dodge the "flow of reasoning" and hence putting us back to square 1.
1. From the start I have "not denied" that he gets financially sound. From being "socially backward" he gets financially stable. Has his problem of social backwardness removed? Like I said, Nobody asks a rich if he is a dalit. And so "economic upliftment" become a cure for his "social backwardness" which you were denying. If he is poor he is simply discrminated, if he is rich then, irrespective of his cast, everyone starts asking him.
2. His problem is removed. What about the problem of his village, which remains intact and is growing more souls? Many will be discrminated, facilitated and cycle repeats!
3. Is it necessary for the village and new souls to "face" discrmination?
4. Can't we remove the whole discrmination in the first place, and help him from childhood for a "better personality development"?? Are we even trying? Are we trying that actively as in reservation?
5. It is clearly discrminating against merit.
6. It is raising bar for the "facilitated one" even higher.
7. We need to eradicate the whole perverted system and bring laws in place in a strict manner!
And so the "divine intervention" was given ages ago, but the reluctant people dodged the enlightenment every single time.
1. For consistency, it is necessary that the "true concept of merit" be followed and hence all the "external factors", like reservation, "money power", "cheating", "forged certificates" that rise because of law not being implemented strictly, should not affect the merit.
2. Thats what I said, that merit can become a part of past performance, but past performance doesn't extrapolates to merit. The score of IIT entrance, i.e merit, will be taken for admission, but not the score of his 8th class performance i.e the whole set of past performance. Like I said, do you even undertsand merit?
BTW, how do you define the present? The very single second you breath of? If you define like that, then scientifically you will never be able "to prove" your existence!
So lets talk logical, instead of stating like "very second, just finish writing the exam".... and hence becomes the past! Remember merit remains as merit till its worth is "valued"! A MAT score is valued for the whole year, while it becomes only an "irrelevant" showcase of performance after the expiry of its date. Ever wondered why boards certificates and scores are asked in college admissions and not 8th class percentage? Do people "cheat" that well in boards as compared to that in their own school? Can a person "cheat" in IIT like he cheats in schools?
Do you see the vast amount of flaws and conradictions in your own written post?karnivore said:
1. The discrmination in US isn't exactly analogous to that of India.
2. Do you know anything about "ethnic cleansing of AMerican Indians?" Also, Indian history is much different than American.
3. The cause of the discrmination is the distortion and misunderstanding of "core of Hinduism". Where is such a core in US?
4. If actions in the past are to be considered then, Hindus were "discrminated" and "abused" financially and physcially! Why are we having reservation for muslims then? Where is the Hindu reservation in general?
5. The Indian Institutes are not even free to "decide" about the implementation (from the bold), let alone the increasing percentage of reservation.
6. Where is the reservation in minority institutions? Do Aligarh muslim university and jamia Milia have same kind of resveration for Hindus?
7. We all know how kashmiri Pandits have been killed, discrminated. Do J&k institutes have the same amount of reservation for Hindus?
8. Why are we stressing on EFFECT, when the CAUSE holds much more importance and the primary solution for the problem?
9. Why do most politicians send their children abroad. Why don't they let them suffer in this perverted system? If they like to glorify the system then I believe they should set examples. Why such a hypocrisy?
10. If Affirmative action creates awareness, then why is the reservation increasing? Logically if you think, if that awareness would have been there, then the problem in villages would have been removed far quicker. If people can come in DElhi and forget all the distorted bullcrap in 2 years alone, then a person going back to his village would have educated many people. So is he even getting that "awareness" in the first place. Remember DElhi not practising discrmination doesn't mean it is "aware" of the Varna system.
Remember, Awareness spreads like a wild fire, just like a rumour does!
And so the point of affirmative action creating awarness is a lie to brainwash the mind of innocent and gullible believers.
11. Comparing reservation system with theism is the worst and stupidiest kind of analogy I have seen so far. While theism is not a system, reservation is entirely a system. While the definition of God has many aspects, reservation is a straight concept where nobody is "debating" on the CAUSE which holds a simple key to eradicate the whole "discrmination". Do I even need to talk on Reservation and Theism? It again shows how bad you are at logic.
12. How can you say that "eradicating the CAUSE" is "dificult in an acceptable time frame". Have we even set a time frame? Have we even experimented that we are just opining about its duration?
13. We are debating "reservation" becuse it is a useless tool. It is useless because it is discrminiating against merit and and more and more of people are arising from the "root of cause" who may or may not have been discrminated. Population of India isn't static!!
14. Disassociating the CAUSE FROM EFFECT to deal with a problem, is again the most stupid form of logic I have seen.
If a white shark is trying to kill people in a sea, will you try to save people or simply kill the shark? Remember it will continue to kill people if you don't kill it.
15. Saying reservation deals with the EFFECT you have yourself given the judgement that how useless the whole flawed system is, the system that was developed due to lack of human intelligence to deal with the problem or perhaps to germinate a seed that would tremble the whole foundation of the Indian nation.
Digest this....
*www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1173139
16. Reservation is a mockery of the reserved student himself where it raises the bar for an "academically underperforming student much higher" in many of the institutes.article said:
So your point that Reservation deals with the EFFECT only narrows to "facilitation", where he is facilitated to suffer a "much intense" hell.
By saying it a problem of entire nation and hence can't leave cities.......karnivore said:
1. Your point of Delhi not recognising SC/ST becomes null. If many people are coming to delhi, then Delhi which is "not recognising SC/ST" is not "denying" or "discrminating" anything
"on basis of cast". Then why has there been a cast based reservation? You are directly making Delhities suffer for a crime they never commit?
2. Your point that it a probem of village and Delhi is different, becomes flawed automatically. Village remains the same, while the "conceptual distorted crap" and "super crap" based on the former is entering Delhi. Those who might or might not have suffered get the luxury/privilege, while the others i.e meritorous are made to suffer. Further the system is apathetic to those who are poor and come under general class.
3. In your second point, once again you yourself highlight how we are ignoring the CAUSE.
4. Your third point. Since you don't live in Delhi and your point has hopped to "cities being the center of most of the institutes" which I was expecting in this post of yours, have you ever heard of the cases from Delhi where a B.Sc student is pulling a rickshaw? I bet you are oblivious to that also. Such B.Sc students are mostly from "financially" poor families irrespective of cast. These are the ones, who never got any personality development, or money to buy a computer or expensive books.
The reality of the cities and companies is that the company doesn't take anyone who lacks personality i.e manners and way to speak, proper English, proper aptitude and proper understanding of a problem which again is aptitude only. Clearly reservation FAILS to "facilitate" ALL OF THESE. The company hasn't taken the oath to teach you proper English first, taken your aptitude for granted.
5. Your fourth point. The line in the bold contradicts the whole meaning that you tried to expound. How do you define regular institute of colleges? If the city ones are regular ones just because they are out of the system, and rural ones are not because of reservation crap, then does introducing "reservation" in city ones still make them regular? The point of reservation here itself has degraded the repute of the college and hence education.
Further if you think, that "People, who would feel that they can’t get into regular institutes or colleges, through open competition, will prolly move to the nearby city.", then what about the city folks? Where will they move? Outside India? Your point has itself busted/contradicted your own view.
If this is what you call affirmative action, then it is most ridiculous logic I have ever seen.
I think you are making it a habit now, that whenever you can't reply to a point, you simply start afresh in a new format!! Why don't you simply stop? Care to elaborate on your view that I exposed as flawed to the core?karnivore said:
Further, private college doesn't necearrily means a good college. Students irrespective of cast try to go in good colleges. Who is denying him? If he is denied, the repute of the college goes down. Companies come to reputed colleges and lastly a student is taken by his "worth"!! Where is education system "promoting mediocrity" by means of private college? Care to explain? If it is capitation fees you are talking of, then where is the problem of "discrmination based on cast"???? I think you are only hopping from one absurd point to another which are all flawed.
Obviously, any point which is made in favour of a flawed theory in concept based on flawed assumptions is bound to be flawed.
Calling a logical argument as emotional, is again a flaw in your logic. Reservation has everything to do with it. Because of reservation a regular college falls sick and "denies" admission (not the test) to the one who got better marks.karnivore said:
Neways, Do you even understand the cutoff marks? Had there been no reservation, and lets say the sam cutoff marks for all like 50%. A student who got 45% marks would have been denied. But if that 50% cutoff becomes for general and 40% becomes for reserved, the same student who got 45% marks is "denied", while an Sc/ST who gets even 41% marks is given admission. I don't even understand why I'm discussing this.
Its like you are totally clueless of what reservation is and what its ills are.
Thats a major flaw once again.karnivore said:
Saying that reservation promotes inequality implies => socio-economic equality and cast based inequality may or may not exist. You have taken it for granted that it exists and I'm not saying it exists. I simply "showed" you how it "may or may not" exists.
Saying reservation "facilitates" the "discrminated" implies => You are taking it for granted that Cast based inequality exists "everywhere". You are treating a percentage as a whole, The percentage from which "majority" of students come to cities, as majority of institutes are in cities, which do not practice "cast based discrmination" and hence even that percentage (of discrminated) is reduced.
ALL YOUR POINTS ARE CONTRADICTING EACH OTHER CLEARLY AND CONCEPTUALLY TILL NOW.
1. Hindus in kashmir?karnivore said:
2. I believe many of them ride bikes and wear rayban. I bet you would need "data".
3. Does that mean they are discrminated, "denied" entrance by institute?
4. Mechanical Engineering, heavy labour work is usually not for "females". This is from the traditional point of view. Its not about "why many of electricians and mechanics and engineers are mostly men", but "how many females applied" for such a job. Number of girls working late at night in Delhi is lower than men. Do you know anything of rapes in Delhi? So again such a measure is far from reality and thus flawed! And hence it again shows how reality (EFFECT) can vary, if the CAUSE itself is not clear, varies and not controlled!
5. Again you are only discrminating with the student as mentioned in above points. You are mocking him, raising his bar even higher.
6. Dropout can also be because of mental retardation. If a child cannot learn a lesson, and fails in the "primary" cirrculum repeatedly, then what assurance is there that he will "behave" on a cirriculum that is based on the previous?? Do you know anything about calculus and algebra? For that you need to be sound in "elementary mathematics"!!
7. Typical reservation?
8. If its about assets, then why not talk in terms of assets?
9. If its a "kacha house", then lets make it a "pakka house". This again invokes "financial relaxation".
10. I think the souce of drinking water should be moved nearer.
11. Is the loan availed properly and appropriately? Are they afraid to take loan? In general, last time I checked ICICI bank thrashed a man for not fulfilling his loan on time.
Well Mandal commission speaks of "flawed" points to determine backwardness right in front of your eyes. How absurd? And so your argument of stating "mandal commission" for your "belief" goes even higher in the height of illogic.
Does all of it has "anything" to do with "discrmination", that is generally not practiced in cities? What does "merit" has to do with the percentage of a class of a people? I think you have started posting arguments that are remotely connected to the concepts of reservation. Confused??karnivore said:
Its funny to see how you are ignoring all the logical, political, realistic factors affecting reservation. You even managed to ignore the root cause. Let me say clear enough......karnivore said:
IF YOU THINK THAT WE ARE DEBATING JUST TO SHOW WHO WINS THE DEBATE, THEN YOU ARE WRONG!!
A victim can never be healed if the "disease" he is suferring from is not eradicated in the first place. Here the "victim" denotes all those who are discrminated. And the human population is not static, that no new souls will be born or face discrmination. For someone who couldn't conquer the bar of merit, introducing a higher bar for him is certainly injustice for him.karnivore said:
Imagine a person who couldn't lift 50 Kg of weight in gym, is made to lift 100 KG. You are simply not helping him actively.
One of the major factors that is blurring your vision is that you assuming that "atrocities occur on all of the backward classes"kanrivore said:
A rich dalit, if added to your cocktail, again makes it tasteless! It again shows how cast can become opposite of "economic backwardness". A rich dalit is economically sound. And a cocktail where poor is added with a cast (say rich dalit) becomes flawed, since poor and rich (dalit) are contradictory!!karnivore said:
Next, if you talk of crime then talk in term of law that is applicable to all. Law is supposed to provide equality and not injustice to the innocent. If its the hate, then eradicate that hate. Bring laws and strictly implement them to punish the discrminator. Once again what about Kasmiri pandits? What about the poor general class Hindu girl who was raped and doesn't come under the banner of "economically backward"??
Flaws, contradictions have teamed up with hypocrisy!!
Once again you "didn't reason why", but only opined? I hoped you would ask for "data". Calling reality as naive assessment once again reflects how a firm "believer" you are that you don't even see the reality and logic. You are simply incapable to understand the plight of a Delhite! Being a Delhite, I enlightened you with the situation in Delhi, told you how village problem doesn't just reflects to village alone but reaches to cities when most of the students come to cities and disappears in them when those students are dissolved in the existing chaos of the city and cities become a hub of people from all walks of life. Once again.....karnivore said:
IF YOU THINK THAT WE ARE DEBATING JUST TO SHOW WHO WINS THE DEBATE, THEN YOU ARE WRONG!!
First you lied about your little tours of Delhi, then you called the story of IITian as an exception and now you are reluctant to believe of the scenario in Delhi. Come to Delhi and seee for yourself. Seeing is believing right??
Like I already exposed, stop treating US scenario with that of India!karnivore said:
I wonder why you brought the discrminatory practise in TN as an argument here itself, to show how many are being facilitated and how many are being discrminated? How absurd!karnivore said:
By first setting the criterias of the data correct. So far all your point are flawed and contradicting.karnivore said:
And that is perhaps the silliest quote. Who else will know reality better of a place than the one who is living in it??karnivore said:
karnivore said:
The report and the protagonists, it seems, are all hypocrites in setting "biased" criterias itself and further apathetic to meritorous candidates and poor general class!!karnivore said:
Is that why IITs and IIMs are against reservation? Your personal experience is also clearly flawed. By seeing 2 brown Indians you cannot say all Indians are brown. You cannot treat a percentage as a whole!!karnivore said:
I am talking of the "logic" behind "progressive taxation" that could be utilized to measure desperation. Read it again!karnivore said:
mediator said:
1. First you state "CAUSE" is independent and now "BS"??karnivore said:
I have been "forced" to understand the meaning of backward classes in graduation, whether my friend is the tagged ONE or not. It again shows how much awarness you yourself need desperately, let alone the awarness in villages. It is only "facilitating" and "not ending" the whole drama.2. Learn about reservation status, the increased reservation to 27% that is to be implemented in phases. Again you are oblivious to the reality, now even to the data.
*ibnlive.in.com/news/sc-upholds-obc-quota-keeps-creamy-layer-out/63029-3.html
*www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=132641
3. Thats exactly what happens when you put up a new format and shy from quoting in old fashioned way. You simply "repeat" much that was debated! Go to DU (Delhi University), the biggest university in Delhi and you will yourself come to know of the classes, who is tagged and who is not, who is certified and who is not. These things are not judged by data, but knowing the reality yourself.
4. It is not happening. Did you even understand the story of the IITian?
5. So now you think the system of holistic" development is not a part of education? You think their "discrmintory village" will treat them the manners and the way to speak? Have you forgotten the golden days when the English teacher made us to pronounce the words correctly and told us of our uniform. Almost every teacher speaks of manners and so, the personality development is a major part of school education. Every school child knows this. Every parent knows this. And you are saying "BS".
You think companies will give them the "personality development" course?? Remember personality development doesn't comes in 2 or 3 months, but years!
6. Again a point out of Ignorance. You are not stressing on the CAUSE and without even trying you have given the verdict that history will continue to be the same. How sane is that??
Like I said, Delhi accomodates people from all walks, region,casts etc. And still DElhi doesn't practice "cast based" discrmination in general. History is re-written everyday. You are clearly blinded by your reluctance to accept reality and the confusion from the flawed theory and assumptions!
It seems you are out of words and hence instead of "reasoning" properly" you are putting up two lettered "BS" in many places. Can't face the reality? Or are you saying now new souls are born on earth? You have even invented a new format to dodge the "flow of reasoning" and hence putting us back to square 1.
I exposed your lies before and on this one too. Denying won't help. I believe we should keep the true definition of varna system in the debate. You yourself were ignorant about the "holy texts" So how could have you "shown" them of their holy texts? Its like a science fan who knows nuthing about science is in pursuit of telling others how science works! How absurd!karnivore said:
Are you even reading properly? Or assumed "BS" as a primary reply to that gets overriden by some vague higher thoughts that are below the threshold of logic anyways?karnivore said:
1. From the start I have "not denied" that he gets financially sound. From being "socially backward" he gets financially stable. Has his problem of social backwardness removed? Like I said, Nobody asks a rich if he is a dalit. And so "economic upliftment" become a cure for his "social backwardness" which you were denying. If he is poor he is simply discrminated, if he is rich then, irrespective of his cast, everyone starts asking him.
2. His problem is removed. What about the problem of his village, which remains intact and is growing more souls? Many will be discrminated, facilitated and cycle repeats!
3. Is it necessary for the village and new souls to "face" discrmination?
4. Can't we remove the whole discrmination in the first place, and help him from childhood for a "better personality development"?? Are we even trying? Are we trying that actively as in reservation?
5. It is clearly discrminating against merit.
6. It is raising bar for the "facilitated one" even higher.
7. We need to eradicate the whole perverted system and bring laws in place in a strict manner!
And so the "divine intervention" was given ages ago, but the reluctant people dodged the enlightenment every single time.
Without experimenting we will never know! Like I said, awareness spreads like a wild fire, just like rumour. But it is important that we sow the seed of awareness first. If people like you and others keep degrading the meaning of scriptures by bringing in manusmriti and all sorts of "ignorant views" in the first place, then even that "seed of awareness" will remain far from being germinated.karnivore said:
Once again, you are in full contradiction of your own views.karnivore said:
1. For consistency, it is necessary that the "true concept of merit" be followed and hence all the "external factors", like reservation, "money power", "cheating", "forged certificates" that rise because of law not being implemented strictly, should not affect the merit.
2. Thats what I said, that merit can become a part of past performance, but past performance doesn't extrapolates to merit. The score of IIT entrance, i.e merit, will be taken for admission, but not the score of his 8th class performance i.e the whole set of past performance. Like I said, do you even undertsand merit?
BTW, how do you define the present? The very single second you breath of? If you define like that, then scientifically you will never be able "to prove" your existence!
So lets talk logical, instead of stating like "very second, just finish writing the exam".... and hence becomes the past! Remember merit remains as merit till its worth is "valued"! A MAT score is valued for the whole year, while it becomes only an "irrelevant" showcase of performance after the expiry of its date. Ever wondered why boards certificates and scores are asked in college admissions and not 8th class percentage? Do people "cheat" that well in boards as compared to that in their own school? Can a person "cheat" in IIT like he cheats in schools?
karnivore
in your face..
I will respond to the quote below, for now that is, because I will be typing from hard copy. That’s lot of typing. If time permits, I will respond to the rest of your harangue, although I am not sure if it will contribute anything to the debate. So eventually I may not respond at all.
Aikara (1980) found that, 5% of the SC students in his sample, had at least 1 college-educated parent, as compared with 32% of non-SC students; 34% of the SC students had 2 illiterate parents, as compared with 11% in the case of non SC students. 88% of SC students had at least partial freeships (scholarships) to support them in their studies, and only 4% of them relied largely or fully on parents or relatives for financial support; the corresponding figs for non-SC students, by contrast, were 14% and 64%. He also noted that the primary reason as to why SC students dropped out of college was failure at exams; but almost as significant was a need to find employment in order to provide financial support for oneself and one's family.
Now about the specific news item, that you wanted me to digest. There was a fact finding mission, lead by Anup Kumar. He published his report, titled, “Caste Discrimination in IIT Delhi”. I have the hard copy with me. So I am transcribing some relevant points.
He notes about the cut-off marks procedure followed by IITs in general
IIT-Madras was similarly found to be casteist.
I know, data is inconvenient for your appetite. After all, bliss lies with ignorance.
Vinay Kripal and Minakshi Gupta (1999) conducted a study on the IITs. They found that the consolidated average graduation rate for all SC and ST students was 84% while for the general category students it was 94%. The Mean Cumulative Performance Index (MCPI) of students who enrolled during 1989-92, were 7.88 for 436 general entry students, 6.23 for 115 SC students and 5.93 for 21 ST students in their performance. Not too bad, is it?
Aikara (1980) found that, 5% of the SC students in his sample, had at least 1 college-educated parent, as compared with 32% of non-SC students; 34% of the SC students had 2 illiterate parents, as compared with 11% in the case of non SC students. 88% of SC students had at least partial freeships (scholarships) to support them in their studies, and only 4% of them relied largely or fully on parents or relatives for financial support; the corresponding figs for non-SC students, by contrast, were 14% and 64%. He also noted that the primary reason as to why SC students dropped out of college was failure at exams; but almost as significant was a need to find employment in order to provide financial support for oneself and one's family.
Now about the specific news item, that you wanted me to digest. There was a fact finding mission, lead by Anup Kumar. He published his report, titled, “Caste Discrimination in IIT Delhi”. I have the hard copy with me. So I am transcribing some relevant points.
He notes about the cut-off marks procedure followed by IITs in general
“The cut-off marks at IIT entrance exam as well as passing marks in particular subjects in IITs are not fixed. The cut-off marks for SC/ST students in IIT entrance exams, in any year, is normally 10 % less than the general category cut-off in that year. The IITs follow relative grading in course work. There is no fixed minimum passing marks. Even if any IIT student has scored 60 % in any particular subject, there are chances that he/she might be declared failed, if the average score of other students is slightly higher. Or he/she might not be failed. Since there is no fixed passing marks, to pass students who have scored less than average becomes the prerogative of individual faculty members. ”
He goes on to note;
“While interacting with IIT Delhi’s terminated Dalit students, three questions came to my mind.
Were these students ‘weak’ in studies and were not able to cope up with the rigorous studies in IIT Delhi ?
Or/and did they just not apply themselves and study hard ?
Or were there other factors involved that might be beyond these students ?
The truth that emerges out is shocking, to say the least. Dalit students who are admitted in IITs are marked as ‘weak’ and ‘non-meritorious’ from the very beginning and their stay in IITs are made as painful as possible. Such behaviour has been institutionalised and has been perfected into a fine art by many faculty members.
According to the IIT administration, all SC/ST students entering into the IITs are ‘weak’, as they come through Reservations. They use each and every opportunity, both inside as well as outside the classes, to make sure that these students are kept aware of this fact that ‘all general category students are meritorious whereas SC/ST students don’t deserve’ to be in IIT’.
However, the truth is that most of the Dalit students entering into the IITs are often toppers of their respective schools. They are, mostly, second generation literate and hail from lower-middle class, rural or semi-urban backgrounds with non-English medium schooling. In comparison, the general category students are invariably from upper-middle class, urban, upper-caste, English medium backgrounds. Not only are there marked differences in the backgrounds of the students from these two categories but also their routes to IIT differ immensely. And I would like to argue that this is where the ‘merit’ is constructed.”
Regarding the Rs 100 billion coaching industry vis-à-vis “merit”, he observesWere these students ‘weak’ in studies and were not able to cope up with the rigorous studies in IIT Delhi ?
Or/and did they just not apply themselves and study hard ?
Or were there other factors involved that might be beyond these students ?
The truth that emerges out is shocking, to say the least. Dalit students who are admitted in IITs are marked as ‘weak’ and ‘non-meritorious’ from the very beginning and their stay in IITs are made as painful as possible. Such behaviour has been institutionalised and has been perfected into a fine art by many faculty members.
According to the IIT administration, all SC/ST students entering into the IITs are ‘weak’, as they come through Reservations. They use each and every opportunity, both inside as well as outside the classes, to make sure that these students are kept aware of this fact that ‘all general category students are meritorious whereas SC/ST students don’t deserve’ to be in IIT’.
However, the truth is that most of the Dalit students entering into the IITs are often toppers of their respective schools. They are, mostly, second generation literate and hail from lower-middle class, rural or semi-urban backgrounds with non-English medium schooling. In comparison, the general category students are invariably from upper-middle class, urban, upper-caste, English medium backgrounds. Not only are there marked differences in the backgrounds of the students from these two categories but also their routes to IIT differ immensely. And I would like to argue that this is where the ‘merit’ is constructed.”
“The majority of Dalit students have cleared the IIT JEE exam through self-study or by taking private tuitions, as they were not in a position to pay huge fees for these centres. In comparison, it is very rare to find a general category student who had not studied in one or the other big coaching centres. Due to this, the general category students are much better equipped for IIT JEE exams and this reflects in the merit list of the general category which has higher cut-off marks. Still, some of the SC/ST candidates are able to score higher than that cut-off and reach to the general category list. The lower cut-off marks for SC/ST students thus becomes the first indicator that points towards the notion that ‘SC/ST students are weak’.
There is not even a single voice that opposes the coaching centres and the undue advantage they provide to the rich, urban, upper-caste students in comparison with those who, without money, are left to do self- preparation.”
He notes some experiences of the SC/ST students as well:
“Professors in IIT are undoubtedly better from rest of the country, but there are some who need to be corrected. They ask the students’ caste and category when they perform poorly. They believe that all SC/ST students are weak and all weak students are SC/ST. In my first semester, the Physics professor was taking my viva and I was not able to answer, on which she became very annoyed and asked me, “Are you from quota?” I said, “No.” Then she explained, “Quota means SC/ST.” I again answered, “No.”
She was asking the same question to the general category students, if they were not able to answer in the viva. What is this mentality of the professor? Is it correct for professors to ask the category if one is not able to answer? Throughout her classes, I had the fear that if she came to know my category, she would do something wrong in my grading. So, I was quite nervous and never went to her for any help or to clarify my doubts. I don’t understand why professors create these kinds of situations.”
There are many such incidents, which he noted. One ex-IITian, who is now a professor at a regional engineering college noted:She was asking the same question to the general category students, if they were not able to answer in the viva. What is this mentality of the professor? Is it correct for professors to ask the category if one is not able to answer? Throughout her classes, I had the fear that if she came to know my category, she would do something wrong in my grading. So, I was quite nervous and never went to her for any help or to clarify my doubts. I don’t understand why professors create these kinds of situations.”
“There is no doubt that casteism prevails in the campus very much. The faculty members strongly believe that all SC/ST students are weak and that is why they treat them as inferior. We keep hearing their comments in the class about how weak we are. If we don’t do well in our exam, they blame it on our being from SC/ST category. They will never encourage you in your studies. Once I asked my professor to allow me to work in certain project under him. He flatly refused saying that this project was beyond my capabilities and I could not manage such a project. It was very heart breaking for me.”
The Telegraph also did a report on this particular incident. What they found, was almost identical to Mr Anup Kumar’s finding – that caste discrimination exists at IIT-Delhi.
About the admission procedure, here’s The ToI report on IIT-Khargpur.
The unsuccessful candidate happened to be one from the backward community.
IIT-Madras was similarly found to be casteist.
I know, data is inconvenient for your appetite. After all, bliss lies with ignorance.
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mediator
Technomancer
I think we should stop as it seems you have taken some kind of oath to dodge all my points and hop from one example to another and repeat and make me repeat everything again and again! This time I'm not asking you to quote my post #95. I guess your precious time is being wasted and then, this topic has seriously started to boooooore me to death.
+ I think the TRP of this thread has gone down.
+ I think the TRP of this thread has gone down.
Do u even know how the grading system of IITs work?It's a relative grading sysytem where someone's grades doesn't only depend on how much he has scored, but it also depends on mean marks scored by the class and deviation of marks.It's a pretty fair system and is being practised in most of the top engg. colleges across the globe.
6.23 isn't too bad??are u kidding?in present day scenerio a person with CGPA 6.23 won't even get a job.. not even a meagre 3.5lpa cosultancy job. 7.5 is the minimum CGPA required by most of the good companies.i think u don't know that who just passes is all subjects with E grade gets 5.0 .
Did u realize that this report is 29 years old?
Resevation on the basis of caste was justified at that time, but today it's not.
The year when I got selected, the cut-off for general category was 210, and for SC, it was less than 140.Do ur maths and see the difference for urself.
If a person is scoring 60% in a subject when the rest of the class is scoring 90%, then the person should definitely fail.
This must also be from one of your 29 years old reports?
Today these guys gets a lot of extra facilities.
First off, there are preperatory classes.The category guys who aren't good enough to make it through JEE(even with the relaxed cut-off for SC) are admitted into IITs and are taught class 12th syllabus for one year.IITs waste their resources on guys who aren't even receiving technical education.Irony isn't it?
All the SC guys are given scholarships just because they are SC.We can take 3 books from the library in a semester, they gets 7.And even after all this, when those guys doesn't perform and gets expelled, teacher is accused of practising casteism.
I have completed 2 years and I've never seen any instance where teacher made any caste related comment.
Most category candidates in my college are from urban areas(many are from metros) and had taken coaching to clear the JEE.How did the routes differ?
4-5 years ago, AIR 1 of JEE was expelled out of one of the IITs because he wasn't able to perform, but it never made the news because he wasn't SC.Expulsion of non-performers fro IIT isn't a new thing.
karnivore
in your face..
My knowledge of the grading system is second hand, I admit. However I do understand what relative grading system means, along with the merits and demerits.
Your sharp eye missed two things. A. The research was in 1999, with data relating to the year 1989-92. The demands of CGPA, (it was probably not in place then and perhaps thats why the researchers had to calculate their own MCPI) would be much less then than today. B. I called it "not bad", on basis of comparison to the general catergory students. 84% graduation rate, against 94% can't be that bad, considering their backwardness, or shall I say "weakness". (Authors were of the same opinion, btw). MCPI of the SC was 6.23 compared to general category which was 7.88. STs, I will admit ,were in a bad position in comparison, with 5.93.
I did notice. If my intention was to score cheap brownie points, then I would have suppressed the date.
Funny thing is, today you are saying, that they needed reservation 29 years ago. But 29 years ago, people like yourself were saying they didn't need it. So 29 years from today, I suppose someone will say that they needed it today, but not during his time. Where does it stop.
Besides, on what basis are you saying that in 29 years the situation has improved so much that they wouldn't need any reservation now. Can you please reflect on that.
Since I do not have any means to verify your claim, I will take it at face value, and leave it at that.
As I was saying before, I do understand the merits and demerits of relative grading system. Many universities are indeed following it. Some are actually moving on to some other method. No system is perfect. The point, however, is that, it leaves scope for subjective marking. It is not a criticism against the system, it is a pointer towards how it can be misused.
No. It was a report related to ouster of about 21 SC/ST students in 2008.
It appears as irony to you, because, you probably do not know that India is constitutionally a welfare state. That is why, you pay a fraction of the cost that IIT incurs on you. We, the taxpayers, pay the rest of the money. Then, you will run abroad, pissing on our money. That, my dear friend is irony.
That is the least that the state can do.
I guess, now you are getting emotional. It is very difficult to disregard evidence.
Am I glad to hear that.
Not sure I got that.
Yes I know. No body is denying that. Prejudices against SC/ST run so deep, that every incident needs to be scritinised.
If i do a study today with the data of 1980,will it start reflecting the current picture?
Just getting the degree isn't impotant.everyone studies to get a job.
I believe that the reservation system was designed to give a chance to those who remained economically backward because of discrimination.This isn't exactly what is happening today.What is the use of a system when it is unable to serve its cause?
Do u really think that just by getting in a college where someone doesn't belong, uplifts him socially?All reservation is meant to do is economic upliftment, and when the people who are getting in through reservation are already economically well off, it's a fail of reservation system.why shouldn't the reservation be on the basis of economic condition?
JEE had released the marksheets of every canidate as well as the cut-off marks that year.U can verify if u want.The competition is so tough that 1 mark in JEE can easily set someone down by 300 ranks.How can someone stand upto those who were 70 marks above them?I feel pity for those who were just below the cut-off and lost the apportunity of their lifetime just because of reservation.
Do u really think that it's only the SC/ST students who gets expelled?Every year students are expelled rom IITs.Expulsion is based on performance and has nothing to do with the caste.When a general category student is expelled, he is a non-performer, and when a SC/ST is expelled, it is discrimination??
I have heard such statements a number of times.I can't understand what people want us to do.If we get into IAS,people have a problem.If we get into IIMs, people have a problem.If we join some MNC,once again people have a problem.I guess, people want us to join the public sector companies where there is no scope for innovation.Higher education as well as the research facilities in india are very poor, so we don't have any choice but to run abroad.
And the fact is, most of the people who goes abroad returns at some point of time.And even if they don't, they are making ur life better in some way or the other.
I guess we are going offtopic here.If u want more discussion on this topic, start a new thread.I m sure other members have something to say as well.
Then keep on giving full scholarships to people who are already driving a mercedes.It's ur money afterall.
I m not getting emotional.I don't even care.I was just giving examples of the extra facilities they get.On the meaner side, i m gaining a lot because of this reservation.These guys brings down the average and helps me i getting better grades.
I was implying that the people who are getting in through reservation are not economically backward and they had every opportunity of getting in just like any other candidate.Then why the hell did they got in when there were thousands of candidates who had scored better than them??
- Status