Read post #70 and #79. Everything has been answered. All your points have been countered. Use your aptitude.^Hi, I only wonder when you'll "reason" on your numerous exposed flaws and contradictions, instead of propounding your beliefs!!?? You left your examples incomplete!
Don't you see ? Only the best are given preference. Even a slightest difference in performance is considered when talking about merit. I just phailed IIT-JEE and AIEEE but I am not complaining. Why ? Because somebody was better than me and they got the ranks.
Really, you think its only because of us that the world knows about casteism. Did you know that a form reservation on the basis of caste, existed at least 30 good years before our independence. That makes the existence of this system even older than our country.I'm simply saying that you are keeping the "evils of casteism" alive by telling the world again and again of "what" the casteism is…
I told you, you are not good with metaphors. I understand, policeman is the metaphor for forward class, and the rape victim is for, backward class. What you do not know, as you have previously claimed bliss in ignorance, is there exists something called Rape Trauma Syndrome. Women need serious attention just to get over it and to bring them into normal life. Rape Trauma is the effect of rape, a criminal offence. The systematic oppression of the backward class, is in a way equivalent to this trauma. This oppression is the effect of caste system, a social crime. Just as a rape victim needs to be treated with much sensitivity and care, the socially oppressed needs a helping hand, with equal sensitivity. That’s what reservation does.So what you are saying that in modern society if a policeman rapes a girl, then policeman should be ignored and even the steps to "eradicate" such sin also should be ignored BUT steps should be taken for "some theoretical" improvement of girl? How bizarre??
That teacher was punished. Laws exist.Don't you think that some laws should be present and implemented actively to "punish" that teacher (in ur example) or to prevent such crimes from happening in the first place? We don't want to "just wish these away", but "to actively work for the eradication of it".
Do you expect me to review an entire web page ? This would require separate thread. May be someday I will get around to do that. In any case it is irrelevant.*www.hinduwisdom.info/articles_hinduism/283.htm
Which Parashurama are you talking here? The one that I know of, is a mythical character. Are now basing your arguments on myths. And which era of Kshatriyas are you talking of ? As far as I know, men have been fighting ever since they settled down, first for territory and women and then for money.Stating as "Brahminism", again tells about your ignorance on the "varna system". I don't know how much you really know about Hinduism, but do you know Parshuram's story? The era when Kshatriyas tried to establish their total control? What will you call it, "kshatriyism"? And so today I guess, lower casts are njoying all the luxuries and merit takes a backseat. What is this? Shudraism?
… Cast is not a direct result of "brahminism", but how misunderstandings have happened.
I really don’t know how to answer that. Once you are born into a caste, you will always be considered to belong to that caste, no matter what name you adopt. That’s how the society at large perceives cast system. By changing name, you just change your identity. You don’t change the perception of the society.If dalits can convert to christianity by showing the ills of cast system by the missionaries, then why can't they changed their cast?
You tell me. You are the one who is expecting that “injecting” correct interpretation of varna system, into the education, will make everything fine and dandy. And here you are claiming, rather admitting, that “the presence of science and modern thoughts” do not prevent “the superstitions and all the marriages of children to dogs and frogs”. You are providing counter arguments to your own arguments. Hilarious.The third bold is like, in the presence of science and modern thoughts, the superstitions and all the marriages of children to dogs and frogs should have been ended. Do you care to elaborate why haven't they ended???me said:If it were so easy to change caste just by changing names, there wouldn’t have been any dalit today, and they wouldn’t prefer to convert en mass.
I am not defining ALL sufferings as result of caste. I am defining only those sufferings that result from caste. I have made a clear distinction between discrimination arising from economic backwardness, and the discrimination that arises, specifically due to caste. Don’t project your inability to make such a distinction.The problem is that you are defining the sufferings on the basis of cast which is itself flawed.
I thought, “majority” means maximum. It is beyond me, how can more than ONE be in majority. If backward class is in majority, under which law of statistics, would Brahmins and kshatryias, also be a part of majority.The "majority" that you stated also comprises of brahmins, kshatriyas etc, which I guess that you agree on that they suffer. I hope u understand that majority that lives under the poverty line isn't exclusive of brahmins and kshatriyas.
Exactly how does, non-existence of STs in Delhi, bolsters your point i.e. “to eradicate the root cause of the problem”, unless you are implying the physical removal of backward class from cities. That STs are not there, in Delhi, has historical reasons. But given your bliss, in ignorance, I expect comments like these.Now, the second bold again strengthens my point, i.e to eradicate the root cause of the problem and hence I stated Delhi.me said:Delhi officially doesn’t even have the Schedule Tribes (ST), or Other Backward Class (OBC), and you expect to understand their plight. Give us a break.
You are kidding me. Over 70% of SC and 80% of ST live in rural areas and you are basing your judgment on your exclusive city experience. If you are “suffering” due to information, then it is your problem, that you prefer living in a cave.But you know, our suffering is that we are "made to understand" as to what the "OBC, SC/ST" is by the crappy reservation system and to generate a mental picture of human stupidity.
To quote Andre Beteille,What worse is that we get to witness the "reactions" (i.e reservation) on that stupidity which isn't concentrated on the root causes, but just to blast meritocracy from the face of earth. And so we see one stupidity is being encountered by another ignoring the root problem as to "who" started the discrimination, let alone the punishments!!
Ideal definitions? Where ? Which one? Contradictory to its purpose ? Where is the data ? Tamil Nadu experience is just the opposite of what you have argued so far. Success of the American system of affirmative action, is another example.I think I'm seeing what I expected to see that you are again going after the "ideal" definitions and scenarios that in reality are contridictory to its purpose!!
Yes, I do. But do you ?You know recently supreme court ordered to list and define "who all are OBCs". Do you know why it stated that??
So now, SC/ST, OBCs status as backward classes is “myth”. Because of your Delhi experience. Wonderful.Just by repeatedly stating that "SC/St, OBC" etc are backward classes, you are actually drawing yourself away from the reality and picturing the reality as a kind of myth.
What are you babbling here. No body gives any right to anybody. Some rights are just fundamental, which you get just by being born, e.g. freedom. Indian constitution further guarantees the right to education. You and I are stealing that right, in the name of caste. It is because, that there rights are being denied, the govt. has the reservation policy, to ensure, that they get their rights. The deniers are indeed punished, not substantially though. (Most of the cases of atrocities aren’t registered with the police, most of those which are registered aren’t dealt with)The last bold again shouts that you are ignoring the root cause. Who is supposed to give them the right? Who is stealing their right? If someone is denying them their right, then who is supposed to get them their right back? If a police man refuses to log complaint then who is guilty and what action should be taken and against whome?me said:Not having purchasing power, is economical backwardness. Not having the right to purchase*, is social backwardness. What use is of purchasing power, when you don’t have power to purchase.
And city experience exactly corresponds to rural life, where the substantial portion of these people live. Right. Just because you have seen some ray-ban wearing, bike wielding, mall hopping dalits, the majority, living in the rural areas, facing discrimination, automatically gets nullified. So govt. should now on base its policy on what the city dwellers are thinking and doing, and forget, the remaining close to 90% of the people. You would probably not even know, how condescending it sounds.And then, going by your "ideal" definition, I guess, all those OBCs and SC/STs who ride bike in colleges with fancy and faded jeans, "should have 'ideally' been denied the right to purchase* by the higher class"?? How did they purchase the bikes and all the fancies then?
And I humbly request you to go through the census data of 2001 and NSSO report 2004-2005.Personally, ( yes in Delhi ) I know many. To show you an example, I guess, again an exception, Mayawati is enough, let alone her dalit "relatives" and "friends"!! You think her blood relations won't be rich? Open the TV and watch her live making her own idols. Its not a golden rule that I'm presenting what seems like an exception to you.
And I humbly request you to goto all the colleges in your constituency and get a list of the so called "socially backward classes" yourself and match if your idealistic words match the reality. I bet you'll be shocked!!
No. Not at all.Forget the reality, even if a "percentage of rich dalits" is less w.r.t to total no. of dalits, then also don't you think the merit is being discriminated and "equal competition" being reduced??
A. Reservation ensures that.And law should be used to make sure that ..
A. they are not denied their right, and
B. Everyone gets "equal" rights
C. The discriminator be punished appropriately!!
First, your assumption about my assumption is just that, your assumptions. Not mine.Your example has already assumed that
1. the guy is a dalit.
2. He ranked beyong 19000
Now,
1. How many dalits exist below 19000 ranks?
2. If there exist dalits below 19000 rank, then why are you only presenting the 19000+ dalit? And why are you defining him a dalit instead of just calling him a student? Were the lower cast students really denied a right like admission to the college, or does your example "still" has another assumption to make that "all the socially backward casts below 19000 were denied admission"????
In case of a tie of marks between two students, ofcourse, there, the "past performance" might play some judgement or perhaps a GD?
Who do you think is affecting the dalit ?That remains your own "belief" and yet again you are not talking of "who is affecting the dalit", but simply saying "dalit is affected"!
You really think, that relaxation of SAT scores impedes completion at Harvard ? Or just arguing for argument’s sake ? You just don’t know how to fit this Harvard syndrome in your convoluted scheme of things.Talking about Harvard, all I would say is that I would favour "equal competition" anyday instead of feeling high by going through some illogical and corrupt form of admission that I won't even call a competition.
Do you have any clue how IITs and IIMs recruit. Does anybody know about their recruitment policies ?You know why IITs and IIMs and corporates are against reservation? Its all about quality and by that it doesn't mean OBC/SC/St etc lack quality and it surely doesn't mean that these institutions are against the poor or the so called "socially backward class" that you point to.
Lets assume there is no reservation. Do you still suggest that everyone would get admission to all colleges. Would you still blame that “a middle class or rich guy” faced social injustice, just because he didn’t get admission. Infrastructural limitations can hardly be called social injustice. That was one point that I had raised earlier.And what exactly happens to a middle class or rich guy who gets beyond 19,000 rank? A social injustice for him too? So, Who denied them the right? The IITs and IIMs treated everyone "equally" and "gave" them "equal chance".
Not sure I got the context of “denying” vs “denial”."Denying" is certainly not the word I would use. It would be most appropriate to call it a "denial" if they were denied of taking the exam itself. Don't mind but I guess the number of contradictions and flaws in your posts have gone weigh too much now.
Again, exception.My post was clear enough. But neways, read the story of the IIt again
*www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv...WEN20080052137
Don’t know where to begin. Without a “threshold” how does one determine where to stop ? If “income sources of family” is made the criteria, how does one determine, which “income source” requires financial aide. Also, how do you measure “desperation” ?Like I said, the concept of "threshold" is itself flawed and misused. Financial relaxation should be given after verifying the income sources of the family be in cash or in assets. Desperate measures can be taken for the desperate ones, lighter measures for those who need a few facilties etc. And its not something that cannot be accomplished!!
Elaborate.Again you are "not removing the plight", but simply creating "more plight".
I have not. But it is irrelevant to the discussion.A. You have a distorted idea of the varna system.
How does reservation create “certified categories” and how are they dangerous.B. The reservation you favour creates "certified" categories which are far more dangerous than the human imagined ones which were a byproduct of misunderstandings.
Eradicating the “root cause” is not the scope of reservation. Its scope is reducing the level of inequality that exists due to a couple of thousand years of oppression, by ensuring certain rights. Its like expecting a sledgehammer to work like a spade.C. You are "ignoring" the root cause of the problem which needs to be eradicated and ignoring the discriminator in ALL YOUR EXAMPLES.
As of now, you haven’t been able provide single data to back up your accusation. While data, contradicting you, exist. If “equal completion” and “the spirit of merit” were hampered, then Harvard today wouldn’t have been what it is. Then in Tamil Nadu, wouldn’t have registered so many backward class in the merit list.D. The fundamentally flawed and self-contradicting reservation itself discriminates against "equal competition" and the spirit of merit, which generates a spirit of competition and a thirst among ALL THE STUDENTS to STUDY and do well.
So ? Whats the point ?E. CBSE course which consists of 70% questions repeated, is a part of "past performance" and not even anywhere near to the IITs paper which consists of "surprises" in terms of nature of questions and number of questions.
You are neither good at constructing metaphors, nor are you cable enough to understand one. On second thought, it is because you don’t understand metaphors, you can’t construct one.F. You have taken "biased" assumptions like, the 19000+ rank might be a dalit while totally ignoring the number of dalits within 19000 rank. Like I said, inappropriate assumptions lead to a false theory.
Where ?G. You are confusing non-selection (during admission round) with denial.
And when are you going to sample the rural India ?H. You think Mayawati and others are the only rich dalits which reflects as to how much you need to sample the colleges and gather your own "real" data instead of "ideal definitions".
I think you forgot that Britishers were there in our country practising "Divide and rule" of all forms. This again shows how much you shy from reading the distortions and misunderstanding I presented. Try to read atleast once.karnivore said:Really, you think its only because of us that the world knows about casteism. Did you know that a form reservation on the basis of caste, existed at least 30 good years before our independence. That makes the existence of this system even older than our country.
If you claim, that you got to know about casteism only because of reservation issue, then you were living under a rock. That is your problem, not mine.
And I told you a 1000 times that you are really bad at logic.karnivore said:I told you, you are not good with metaphors. I understand, policeman is the metaphor for forward class, and the rape victim is for, backward class. What you do not know, as you have previously claimed bliss in ignorance, is there exists something called Rape Trauma Syndrome. Women need serious attention just to get over it and to bring them into normal life. Rape Trauma is the effect of rape, a criminal offence. The systematic oppression of the backward class, is in a way equivalent to this trauma. This oppression is the effect of caste system, a social crime. Just as a rape victim needs to be treated with much sensitivity and care, the socially oppressed needs a helping hand, with equal sensitivity. That’s what reservation does.
If you had read post #70, “the purpose of reservation”, your query would have been answered. But as always, you need to be spoon fed.
It is actually a shame, that an educated person call the improvement of a rape victim, as “some theoretical”.
And thats what I'm exactly saying. Instead of punishing the perpetrators or removing the "root cause", it is simply defining the line darker and discrminating against the merit i.e it is creating more problems and has become one of the factors of BRAIN DRAIN.karnivore said:Reservation, doesn’t seek to punish the perpetrators, because that is a separate issue – issue of law and order, outside the scope of reservation. It is adequately addressed through laws, more precisely Criminal Procedure Code. Like, discriminating against a person on basis of race, caste, creed or religion is a criminal offence under penal code. There is also Atrocities Act.
Only when media stepped in? Is the teacher punished everywhere where media is blind? Remember, law can only help when its boundaries are reached. If policeman is not registering the complaint, inspite of steps taken for dalit improvements, then what can one do? Shouldn't we be actively and strictly applying those laws? While a poor dalit or a poor man is "denied" of his right, the rich dalit or rich man can use police as a tool. It again shows how reservation IS NOT ERADICATING THE ROOT CAUSE and instead becomes a flawed system "in concept".karnivore said:That teacher was punished. Laws exist.
karnivore said:Do you expect me to review an entire web page ? This would require separate thread. May be someday I will get around to do that. In any case it is irrelevant.
Read post #70, “Blame the incorrect interpretation of the “varna” system”
If your ignorance and the vast amount of repetitions that has a terra firma on something distorted and misunderstood, then I believe it would be really wise "to review the entire web page". If you think it is irrelevant, then I think you are only trolling here. The line in bolds only shows that..karnivore said:Blame the incorrect interpretation of the “varna” system ?
May be. May be not. What is the correct interpretation of the “verna” system, is open for never ending debates. There are enough evidences in the vedas, Upanishads, smiritis etc. that support the idea of “verna” from birth. Even Gita contradicts itself on this “verna” system. In any case, it is, at the moment irrelevant, what the “correct” interpretation is. What is relevant, is how it is being perceived by the mass.
Shall “injecting” the “correct” interpretation, if at all there is any such interpretation, of “verna” system into curriculum, eventually remedy the system ? There is data, to prove, that education does little to change one’s perception of religion. People, subject to rigors of scientific studies find it difficult to let go of their personal prejudices. Not exactly, too encouraging. Besides, what shall one do to the system of injustice, that is currently in place, while we wait, for the “correct” interpretation of “verna” to take its effect.
Treat him as a mythical character if you like. I have no qualms. But it seems you are a "firm believer" in the distorted cast system, as so obvious from your reluctance to know the truth about it.karnivore said:Which Parashurama are you talking here? The one that I know of, is a mythical character. Are now basing your arguments on myths. And which era of Kshatriyas are you talking of ? As far as I know, men have been fighting ever since they settled down, first for territory and women and then for money.
And by kshatriyaism, I meant the same.karnivore said:By brahminism, I meant the rise of the Brahmins, circa 8 century BCE, where, every aspect of life got governed by the dictates of these Brahmins. The reason why historians call that “brahminism” (some call it “vedic brahminism”) is because, it was during that time, that the various texts got interpreted, in the way that the barhmins wanted to, for their benefit ,and got imposed on the society. It was during that time, that all the evils in Hindu society that you see today, got certified by the Brahmins. (It is incidentally the era that saw the demise of Buddhism as well.)
The funny part is that you don't even understand the meaning of a brahmin. A Brahmin who distorts the scriptures for his own selfish agendas IS NOT A BRAHMIN BY KARMA.karnivore said:Funny part is, post after post, you have tried to say, that Brahmins, the fake ones, misinterpreted the varna system. But when I used a different terminology to say almost the same thing, you started to question the veracity of my arguments. Not only that, you have gone so far to even reject brahminism, not knowing that you are actually refuting your own argument. You say now, it is a result of “misunderstandings”. Previously, and again later you claimed of misinterpreting the scripts. Now can you tell me who misinterpreted or misunderstood the texts, given the fact that only Brahmins were qualified to interpret the Vedas. And when did this happen ?
Funny, instead of improving your posts after admitting of your mistake of not reading the source itself, you are actually accusing me?karnivore said:A simple change in nomenclature tripped you over. Clearly, you are neither reading things in the right context nor are you debating. You are just arguing for argument’s sake. It also shows the vacuity of your arguments.
I know about the discriminations in other faiths and I understand your point. But it seems you don't realise that "how" these dalits are "availed" everything when their "economic status improves". The "root cause of the problem" and the "sense of perception and habit of looking down upon" remains the same "for other dalits", or I would like to say "other poor people". The scenario in Delhi completely busts your belief of "born into caste, always a caste". If Delhi can succeed, then so can the whole of India. It only shows how pessimistic you are, while I'm showing optimism and even stating the steps to deal with it.karnivore said:I really don’t know how to answer that. Once you are born into a caste, you will always be considered to belong to that caste, no matter what name you adopt. That’s how the society at large perceives cast system. By changing name, you just change your identity. You don’t change the perception of the society.
Besides, you are probably not aware, that even though the dalits are converting to run away from their cast, they still can’t shake off their caste. They continue to be considered as dalits, by their Hindu neighbours, even though they are no longer Hindus. They are perpetually caught between the devil and the deep sea. You have probably never heard of something like Backward Caste Christians (BCC), or Backward Caste Muslims (BCM), have you ?
Wrong again! All I'm saying is that the "awareness" hasn't reached the point, the point that I have been "championing" all along. Or did you forget that?karnivore said:You tell me. You are the one who is expecting that “injecting” correct interpretation of varna system, into the education, will make everything fine and dandy. And here you are claiming, rather admitting, that “the presence of science and modern thoughts” do not prevent “the superstitions and all the marriages of children to dogs and frogs”. You are providing counter arguments to your own arguments. Hilarious.
And again you proved how bad you are at logic.karnivore said:Also, you made a naive assertion, that by changing name one can change his caste and I have only pointed out that, had it been the case, there wouldn’t have been any caste around – meaning, it doesn’t. By saying that in spite of existence of scientific education, superstitions can’t be removed from the psyche, you are essentially saying, that by changing name, the caste system can’t be removed, thereby contradicting your own assertion, bolstering mine.
And thats why asked what a about a poor Non-OBC,non-SC/ST person who is "denied" a hospital admission, respect from police etc? Clearly, the "ideals" and "concepts" of economic and social backwardness mixed with reality has blinded and confused you. A socially backward "tagged" person 'may or may not' be "socially discrminated". Whereas an economically backward person is "denied", "discrminated" and "treated inferior" most of the times.karnivore said:I am not defining ALL sufferings as result of caste. I am defining only those sufferings that result from caste. I have made a clear distinction between discrimination arising from economic backwardness, and the discrimination that arises, specifically due to caste. Don’t project your inability to make such a distinction.
I guess its the banner of "below poverty level" that I was talking of that many brahmins and kshatriyas also do come under and aren't exclusive of it. Is reservation applicable to all of them? If no why such partiality? If yes, then again it shows how reservation is drawing the boundaries further, creating more and more categories, cast defined and then "certificate/tagged" defined IGNORING THEROOT CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM.karnivore said:I thought, “majority” means maximum. It is beyond me, how can more than ONE be in majority. If backward class is in majority, under which law of statistics, would Brahmins and kshatryias, also be a part of majority.
Another example of how blindly you just argue, only for argument’s sake.
As per NSSO 1999-2000 report, the percentage of population living under poverty level are:
ST – 46 in rural, 35 in urban
SC – 36 in rural, 38 in urban
OBC – 27 in rural, 29 in urban
Hindu Upper Class – 12 in rural, 9 in urban.
If you don't have a valid point, then simply stop.karnivore said:Exactly how does, non-existence of STs in Delhi, bolsters your point i.e. “to eradicate the root cause of the problem”, unless you are implying the physical removal of backward class from cities. That STs are not there, in Delhi, has historical reasons. But given your bliss, in ignorance, I expect comments like these.
First, my point was => Why should Delhities suffer from this is stupid reservation crap, if other areas face the problem? Why should delhities know about it? To play the games of "you are dalit, I'm brahim"?karnivore said:You are kidding me. Over 70% of SC and 80% of ST live in rural areas and you are basing your judgment on your exclusive city experience. If you are “suffering” due to information, then it is your problem, that you prefer living in a cave.
1. Political exploitation of castkarnivore said:To quote Andre Beteille,
“Today, the Constitution of India provides a blueprint for an egalitarian society. The Constitution is not based on the premise of hierarchy, but on the premise of equality. But of course, you do not just erase or cancel out age-old inequalities simply by adopting new principles in a Constitution. So what else has to be done in order to reduce the inequalities of the past? This is what affirmative action or positive discrimination addresses itself to. The object is to reduce the level of inequality in a society which has had a hierarchical order over a very long period of time. Affirmative action or positive discrimination was not the only major programme adopted when the country became independent and created a Constitution based on the premise of equality. For example, there was a massive programme of agrarian reform which was also designed to give greater thrust to the pursuit of equality. I would say that these were the two main programmes – agrarian reform and affirmative action – designed to improve the conditions of what came to be known as the backward classes in Indian society.”
Mr Andre Beteille, is a vocal anti-quota activist. He, along with Sam Petroda, resigned from the Knowledge Committee in 2006, to protest against, govt’s decision to increase quota.
Sourcearticle said:The underlying theory is that the under-representation of the identifiable groups is a legacy of the Indian caste system. After India gained independence, the Constitution of India listed some erstwhile groups as Scheduled Castes (SC) and Scheduled Tribes (ST). The framers of the Constitution believed that, due to the caste system, SCs and the STs were historically oppressed and denied respect and equal opportunity in Indian society and were thus under-represented in nation-building activities. The Constitution laid down 15% and 7.5% of vacancies to government aided educational institutes and for jobs in the government/public sector, as reserved quota for the SC and ST candidates respectively for a period of five years, after which the situation was to be reviewed. This period was routinely extended by the following governments and the Indian Parliament, and no revisions were undertaken.
Later, reservations were introduced for other sections as well. The Supreme Court ruling that reservations cannot exceed 50% (which it judged would violate equal access guaranteed by the Constitution) has put a cap on reservations. However, there are state laws that exceed this 50% limit and these are under litigation in the Supreme Court. For example, the caste-based reservation fraction stands at 69% and is applicable to about 87% of the population in the state of Tamil Nadu (see section on Tamil Nadu below).
Read the post and the data above which shows how the contagious flu is spreading!karnivore said:Ideal definitions? Where ? Which one? Contradictory to its purpose ? Where is the data ? Tamil Nadu experience is just the opposite of what you have argued so far. Success of the American system of affirmative action, is another example.
Again a lapse on ur part! I never said "SC/St/OBC" is a myth. The statement => "ALL SC/ST/OBC are backward classes", is wrong and is a myth!!karnivore said:So now, SC/ST, OBCs status as backward classes is “myth”. Because of your Delhi experience. Wonderful.
What I'm stating is that "why a poor irrespective of cast is denied that right"? And why is it that the same poor, irrespective of cast, "when he becomes financially sound" is availed all his natural right ?karnivore said:What are you babbling here. No body gives any right to anybody. Some rights are just fundamental, which you get just by being born, e.g. freedom. Indian constitution further guarantees the right to education. You and I are stealing that right, in the name of caste. It is because, that there rights are being denied, the govt. has the reservation policy, to ensure, that they get their rights. The deniers are indeed punished, not substantially though. (Most of the cases of atrocities aren’t registered with the police, most of those which are registered aren’t dealt with)
It simply shows the flaw of reservation. But you don't see it. Right? If city experience does not corresponds to rural experience then why such a bullcrap is implemented in city? Further you did not answer my question!! here it is again...karnivore said:And city experience exactly corresponds to rural life, where the substantial portion of these people live. Right. Just because you have seen some ray-ban wearing, bike wielding, mall hopping dalits, the majority, living in the rural areas, facing discrimination, automatically gets nullified. So govt. should now on base its policy on what the city dwellers are thinking and doing, and forget, the remaining close to 90% of the people. You would probably not even know, how condescending it sounds.
Care to answer?mediator said:And then, going by your "ideal" definition, I guess, all those OBCs and SC/STs who ride bike in colleges with fancy and faded jeans, "should have 'ideally' been denied the right to purchase* by the higher class"?? How did they purchase the bikes and all the fancies then?
Have you even wondered how bad a child who get good marks, feels when a reserved ones who got lower marks get through? ONce again the sachar report, mandal commision and the cenus data do not show "IF THE ROOT CAUSE AND THE SENSE OF PERCEPTION AND DISCRIMINATION" has been lowered. Further, They are apathatic to the general class student who is financially unstable. I guess you forgot how I started and you need to read back the entire debate.karnivore said:And I humbly request you to go through the census data of 2001 and NSSO report 2004-2005.
A. Agreed!karnivore said:A. Reservation ensures that.
B. Or, bring down the level of inequality.
c. Law exists, but hardly implemented.
Its quite common when a person wants a computer stream which he is getting in DCE but a mechanical stream in IIT, he goes to DCE to pursue his choice. He can do that "irrespective of his cast" and nobody denies him. In ur example, What crime did the "general class" student commit that he "does not get that better college"? And why are you assuming, the general class student gets private college? Have you taken it for granted that the general class student is financially sound? Have to taken it for granted that the dalit for "economically backward" and "socially discrminated"?karnivore said:The whole point of the example was that the so called “merit” is a farce. Person scoring 19,000th rank would be considered not so meritorious compared to the ones who are, say within top 100. It is irrelevant, if he is dalit or general class. Now, if this dude is not a dalit, but a general class, he still gets admission to a college. A private, sucky one. However, if this dude is a dalit, he also gets admission to a college. A better college, due to reservation. In the former scenario, no question about merit will be raised. But in the later scenario, question of merit will be raised, just because, he is taking the route of reservation. In both the cases, though, they are of same merit.
Reservation is "acting" on the first layer of admission, whereas the "past performance" in my statement is acting on the second layer, a layer when both "dalit and general class" possess the same score. The second layer, i.e during a tie, can also be based on the "age" i.e who is older. If financial help is given to the dalit, then he can perform better than general class one not only in the tie i.e past performance, or GDs, but even during the admission round.karnivore said:Strange, here you find, "past performance" to be adequate to break tie. But when I suggested this very factor to be considered to determine reservation, you went into a severe seizure.
article said:With hard effort and single-minded devotion, you can make possible what seems impossible.
That is what an 18-year-old has shown in Khammam district of Andhra Pradesh. With not enough to eat, and no money even to burn the midnight oil, in a village with hardly nine hours daily power supply, the boy managed to secure 453rd rank in the IIT entrance exam. However, he has won only half the battle yet.
At Garikapadu village in Khammam district, the IIT entrance rank holder, Narasimha Rao, is a labour under the National Rural Employment Guarantee scheme.
With the daily wage of Rs 80, Narasimha wants to repay dues for borrowing books from a reference library. Even at work, his thoughts revolve around science.
"When I am working in the field also, I think of questions in physics. I just can't understand how these mobiles work? How the waves travel?" says Narasimha.
Narsimha's mother Lakshmi can't tell what exam her son has passed but the labourer parents say their son has made them proud.
"My boy said he would buy me a gas stove to cook after he gets a job. I know he is grown up now. My eyes burn when we burn wood," says Lakshmi.
Narsimha managed to get coaching in an IIT institute in nearby Vijaywada with the financial support by some elders in this village. Now the 18-year-old has to attend counselling at IIT Madras on June 18, for which he does not even have travel expenses.
"After I am settled in life, I promise to pay back the money. I will be so thankful," says Narasimha.
Higher casts? Does that mean all of the higher casts? Does that mean all of the dalits are affected. Does that mean every single higher cast is affecting every single dalit? If some higher casts are affecting some dalits or lets say plenty of dalits, then shouldn't that root cause of the problem be eradicated and action should be taken against that "some higher cast"?karnivore said:Who do you think is affecting the dalit ?
Once again you have shown that you are ignorant on merit. I would rather find my place in an institute that is built on the grounds of "competition", than "reservation". Even in many institutes the passing marks are diff. and relaxed for "reserved ones". So even the completion factor is non-adherent to the reality. and hence your logic is again flawed.karnivore said:You really think, that relaxation of SAT scores impedes completion at Harvard ? Or just arguing for argument’s sake ? You just don’t know how to fit this Harvard syndrome in your convoluted scheme of things.
Read their brochure, for I bet you haven't even done that. They don't "deny" a dalit from taking an exam.karnivore said:Do you have any clue how IITs and IIMs recruit. Does anybody know about their recruitment policies ?
If you stop talking of the reservation be it on economic backwardess or social backwardness, then other is bound to stop talking of the terminologies "connected" to it.karnivore said:Lets assume there is no reservation. Do you still suggest that everyone would get admission to all colleges. Would you still blame that “a middle class or rich guy” faced social injustice, just because he didn’t get admission. Infrastructural limitations can hardly be called social injustice. That was one point that I had raised earlier.
Do you know anything about the income tax? Why higher income group pays more taxes and why lower salaried pay low accordingly? The same logic is what I am talking of and thats how we "measure desperation".karnivore said:Don’t know where to begin. Without a “threshold” how does one determine where to stop ? If “income sources of family” is made the criteria, how does one determine, which “income source” requires financial aide. Also, how do you measure “desperation” ?
Do you think population of India is static that no new souls will be born into this world, in village, after the implementation of reservation and after some period of time say in decades all the problem will disappear?karnivore said:Elaborate.
First, quoting manusmriti, then exploring the "by birth" in it and now this? I think you should really stop for its wise if YOU HAVE NO IDEA. I will enlighten you in my next post about it, if you still show your ignorance and reluctance. A wise decision would be to read it yourself.karnivore said:I have not. But it is irrelevant to the discussion.
If the scope is to reduce inequality then why has reservation been increased?????????????????????? Why are Delhities made to suffer inequality under the banner of equality? The bold clearly tells, how useless is the reservation then. If the SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM is not dealt with, then how we can we really stop the problem???karnivore said:Eradicating the “root cause” is not the scope of reservation. Its scope is reducing the level of inequality that exists due to a couple of thousand years of oppression, by ensuring certain rights. Its like expecting a sledgehammer to work like a spade
It seems you don't even know what your data speaks of. Your data is not "contradicting" a single point I'm putting forward.karnivore said:As of now, you haven’t been able provide single data to back up your accusation. While data, contradicting you, exist. If “equal completion” and “the spirit of merit” were hampered, then Harvard today wouldn’t have been what it is. Then in Tamil Nadu, wouldn’t have registered so many backward class in the merit list.
The point is "past performance" that you have been championing all along. I hope you understand, aptitude is different that mugging answers!! Some institutes admit people on the basis of "aptitude", while some "on who scored better in boards".karnivore said:So ? Whats the point ?
You are the one who is talking of data all the time, not me! You are the one who is oblivious to the stories of 100s of village children who cracked IIT, not me! So I think you should stop making sarcastic statements.karnivore said:And when are you going to sample the rural India ?
And you still don’t get the difference between fighting crime – a law and order problem and healing the victim.My example of policeman was to SHOWCASE how you are IGNORING the root cause of the problem. It seems you have made a habit to deliberately insert the cast factor. She could have been a dalit or a brahmin. She could have been rich or poor. You have assumed a lot of incorrect factors it seems that clouds your vision of the picture AS A WHOLE. We need to "eradicate" the the very cause, the very perception that becomes the "start" of the crime, so as to bring STRICT discipline so that the "start disappears". And so, ONCE again, you have NEGLECTED the root cause and telling us the definitions and consequences of the actions.
We want to stop the rape in general, and you are talking of the cast. She could have been a foreigner, a chinese, a black, an alien. Read the example again
I have not denied that economic discrimination doesn’t exist. I agree, sometimes the line becomes blurred. But, you are completely rejecting that atrocities against backward class happen, just because of their caste, going so far as to say that “the factor of "cast" is almost null”. You are attributing all crimes to economic discrimination. Before filing a FIR, the police needs the name of the victim or the one who is filing. So yes, they get to know what class that victim belongs to. Yes, house maids are sexually molested, because she is a dalit.…your post clearly shouts HOW YOU ARE IGNORING THE ROOT CAUSE which become irrespective of cast. A poor is discrminated irrespective of his/her cast, while the rich njoys the facilties and mocks the laws.
…
A maid is not slapped or raped because she is a dalit. Police doesn't checks the complete family history before doing discrmination or taking goose instead of "challans". If you have political backing, police is at your knees. If you are rich, police behaviour is seen. If you are poor, police becomes a wolf. ALL of that => IRRESPECTIVE of cast i.e the factor of "cast" is almost null. But the "finance factor" is BIG and Real!!
Naïve assessment.Firstly, For even a teenager knows how people from "all walks, all regions, all faiths etc" are entering Delhi like atleast 1000 per day for various reasons. They come and get dissolved in the chaos of the city. Those who discrminated, breath the air, get used to it, demolarise and stop discrminating and become part of the captial. Those who do are in turn looked down upon for their "discrminatory" behaviour and hence it becomes the first step in "eradication of the root cause". Here also, "most" of the times, a person is discrminated only when he is poor.
That actually shows rigidity and unwillingness to learn, on your part. I quoted Mr Andre Beteille, to explain the thought process that went into creation of this reservation, i.e. affirmative action or positive discrimination.…if you think by quoting an anti-reservationist I'm gonna agree, then dream on.
Funny assessment. Although the total reservation adds upto 69%, in practice it doesn’t go beyond 49.5%. They have a peculiar method of calculating the absolute numbers. Anything beyond 49.5% would be unconstitutional as per Supreme Court verdict.Tamil Nadu system has become like an exception. A competition is said to be working when the people fight on "equal terms". Even if "majority of people" fight on equal terms, then also it is competition, but not really in true sense. It becomes flawed. Since majority in the case of T.N is itself the privileged ones i.e greater than 60%, the competition is between the priviledged ones. But again not a real competition. And hence I believe the situation in T.N is reverse, where upper class is "under privileged" and "has to work hard". And hence Tamil Nadu is actually "discrminating" in a far worse manner and IGNORING THE ROOT CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM COMPLETELY.
This is the million dollar quote. What shall we base our judgment of reality on ?…demanding "data" all the time to judge reality.
And the villager gains knowledge, through some divine whisper…Rememer an american can never present the problem of an Indian village in the same way that a person from the same village can. American would need "data", while the villager "knows" the reality.
Well boo hoo…Have you even wondered how bad a child who get good marks, feels when a reserved ones who got lower marks get through?
First read the reports, then commentONce again the sachar report, mandal commision and the cenus data do not show "IF THE ROOT CAUSE AND THE SENSE OF PERCEPTION AND DISCRIMINATION" has been lowered. Further, They are apathatic to the general class student who is financially unstable.
The argument was of merit. You are now shifting your goal post.In ur example, What crime did the "general class" student commit that he "does not get that better college"?
No. Because if they do they will loose license to operate.Is any institution "denying" the right to "entrance exam"??
Personal question. Anyway, no, I was one of the “fortunates” to be born in a Hindu Upper class. I never needed reservation and reservation never really effected me. Never. And since, we are into personal experience, my personal experience is that only mediocres, who can’t get into better colleges, whine against reservation.Let me ask, did you enjoy reservation all your life that you are so ignorant on merit? Did you EVER face competition in studies to know the value of competition and merit?
Brochure are not made to advertise the soft underbelly of the institutes. They “don’t” deny dalits, because now, they “can’t” deny. Mandal commission found, how these institutes were ingeniously denying dalits, by means of a loophole. These institutes, previously, never used to fulfill the quota. Example, if say, 10 persons were eligible to get admitted through quota, they would admit only say, 3. The remaining seat would be fulfilled from general quota. Some colleges just didn’t fill up any, and admit all general students. This led to the recommendation of freezing the quota, meaning, if quota remains unfulfilled, they shall remain that way.Read their brochure, for I bet you haven't even done that. They don't "deny" a dalit from taking an exam.
Lets see. Of 9 years of professional life, I have been a tax consultant, for 4 years, (3 years as assistant to a senior one), and of 3 years of my apprenticeship, before I got my degree and started my professional life, 1 year has been in the tax department of my firm. Believe me. I know exactly what I am talking about, when I am talking about tax. That tax system is called progressive taxation.Do you know anything about the income tax? Why higher income group pays more taxes and why lower salaried pay low accordingly? The same logic is what I am talking of and thats how we "measure desperation".
1. BS1. Reservation leads to the never ending "cast system".
2. Percentage of reservation has gone up. No revision has been made and hence meritocracy has been discrminated even further.
3. It creates a "certified" category of who is "reservation tagged" and "who really competed".
4. Reservation is not remotely helping them buy internet connection or a computer, books, or anything that is used to do practicals and homework. Read the story of an IITian (A.P) once again.
5. A system that is divorced from competition and denying a "holistic development" of a student, I guess, is really "not giving" him what is needed. Development of personality and speaking manners are a part of education.
6. More souls are born, and the "root cause of the problem" remains the same. Brahmins are pictured as monsters and hence society starts looking down upon them. Look at yourself alone, saying all of it started with "Brahminism". Have you ver wondered it might lead to a reverse situation, where Brahmin might be discrminated in future?
7. Again, what about a poor general category student who got higher marks, but a quota student got the seat?
I didn’t quote Manu Smriti as part of my argument. Interpretation of verna was never an argument. I quoted to show, the members what their holy texts say. Simple. No need for mental gymnastics.First, quoting manusmriti, then exploring the "by birth" in it and now this? I think you should really stop for its wise if YOU HAVE NO IDEA. I will enlighten you in my next post about it, if you still show your ignorance and reluctance. A wise decision would be to read it yourself.
And what enables him to “get facilties, and jobs” so that he can get "financially sound" ? Some divine intervention I guess.It seems you don't even know what your data speaks of. Your data is not "contradicting" a single point I'm putting forward.
The socially discrminated one gets facilties, and jobs. He gets "financially sound". Is he discriminated? Thus financial improvement removes his social backwardness. While his village "continues" to face the discrmination. More babies are born, who shall face that discrmination. And hence, the "root cause of the problem" i.e discrmination, remains IGNORED.
How do you suppose, you would implement “strict laws” ? How do you suppose to develop whole village, to the extent that economic discrimination is completely eradicated, with the limited resource available to GoI. And how long do you think it will take.My idea, is to develop whole village, spread awarness and implement "strict" laws to reduce/eradicate discrmination.
Mental masturbation, only ejaculating confusion of mind. Your score in IIT, or for that matter any exam that you wrote last, becomes a part of your past performance immediately after you finish writing the exam. Just that, it will be your immediate past. A single exam is just a test of your performance on that given day, on those given set of questions. The reason why social scientist ask for result of “nursery”, in your words, in addition of immediate performance, is to judge one’s consitency of performance. This helps those who are genuinely good students, but fared badly due to reasons other than ability.It doesn't mean merit is flawed. Merit is not really past performance. I hope you know that. How one scored in IIT or an exam is merit. How well person did in past, is "past performance". Merit may become a part of past performance, while past performance is not really a subset of merit. It doesn't extrapolate to merit.
A how a student performed in nursery is irrelevant. But what relevant is the percentile he got in IIT/IIM to get admission into IIT/IIM. This is how IIT/IIMs "select students". BIMTECH has its own procedure. AFAIK, 10% weightage on CAT score, 30% on GD, 30% on PI etc.
Do you see the vast amount of flaws and conradictions in your own written post?karnivore said:1.What is the use of reservation, if can’t solve “the SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM” ?
This expectation of reservation to solve “the SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM” comes from incorrect understanding of affirmative action, or, positive discrimination. Affirmative action attempts to bring down the level of equality that exists due to actions in the past. For example, in the US, the native Indians, were systematically denied access to civil amenities, which resulted in this ethnic component of the population to socially fall behind of the general population. The conditions of the blacks were even worse. Much later, actually, just 40 years ago, the US started this programme of affirmative action, where, these backward ethnic groups, were given concessions in terms of education and job security. But this action is not compulsory on any education institute or enterprise. They are free to choose not to implement. But still they do. For example, when the press in US, after a survey realized, that blacks were severely under represented in their industry, they voluntarily created a reservation of 9% exclusively for blacks. Today blacks have a fair share of representation in press. Universities like, Harvard and MIT, started accepting scores much lower that the general population. (Only a fool will claim that this has resulted in merit discrimination at Harvard). Affirmative actions, in one form or the other, exist in many other countries as well, for example Brazil, Canada, China, Japan etc.
Discrimination, on whatever basis, is the CAUSE and backwardness is one of its EFFECT. Two are entirely different things, and require different solutions. Affirmative action, addresses the EFFECT, while the CAUSE is addressed through a combination of laws and awareness. Every country, even in India, adequate anti-racist (or if you may, anti-casteist for India e.g. Prevention of Atrocities Act or Protection of Civil Rights Act etc.) exist. Lack or inefficiency of enforcement of such law is actually a problem of governance. Improvement on governance will not only allow discrimination to die out, it will actually make civil life for all a lot more smooth. Awareness can be increased through education and partially through affirmative action, itself. What affirmative action does, in addition to lowering the level of inequality, is that, it creates awareness through the process of familiarity. Multi-ethnic campuses go a long way in improving inter community interactions, which in turn increases awareness. Education alone is not enough. It has its limits. A few months back there was survey that revealed that, of 1100 PhD holders, who were surveyed in India, about 49% believed that prayers work, while 38% believed that god can perform miracles. That is a scary result, by any standard. Not sure, if I can trust this education system to completely remove the prejudices. But it is not unique to India. A similar survey in US revealed similar results, confirming the theory of many sociologists, that up-bringing is key to such prejudices. Education, doesn’t always help, at least, it is for now, not helping the majority.
It may be argued that removing the CAUSE, would remove the EFFECT. Although it is true in principle, but is many orders of magnitude difficult to completely remove the CAUSE of casteism within an acceptable time frame. Concentrating solely on removal of the CAUSE and ignoring the cumulative EFFECT of the past, would mean, letting the EFFECT to linger for some more time, at least till the CAUE is completely eradicated. Since we do not know, how long it would take to purge the CAUSE, it runs the risk of further deterioration than alleviation of the EFFECTED.
Therefore, the actions to remove the CAUSE must run parallel to removing the EFFECT. Reservation, does the later. Additionally, it keeps the discrimination, where it exists, in check. And we are debating reservation, which throws the actions to remove the CAUSE, outside the scope of out debate. The sociologists in India, almost unanimously agree that some form of affirmative action is needed for the SC/STs and OBCs. Where they differ, is the method of implementing such action.
16. Reservation is a mockery of the reserved student himself where it raises the bar for an "academically underperforming student much higher" in many of the institutes.article said:NEW DELHI: The recent decision of the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT), Delhi, to terminate 25 students, many of them from the scheduled caste category, for poor performance has raised hackles all around.
While the National Commission for Scheduled Castes is pressuring the institute to take them back, the issue that cannot be wished away is their actual performance after gaining entry into these hallowed institutions.
Have quotas really worked? How do students from the scheduled castes and scheduled tribes (SC/ST), inducted on the basis of lower qualifying marks, fare in terms of performance and salaries at the IITs and the Indian Institutes of Management (IIMs)? Are they able to cope with high academic pressures?
DNA, which used the Right to Information Act (RTI) to extract numbers on SC/ST performance from reluctant institutions, has some answers. We found that quotas don't work as well in the IITs, where [size=+1]the demands for academic excellence are higher[/size], but the results are reasonable when it comes to the IIMs.
By saying it a problem of entire nation and hence can't leave cities.......karnivore said:Firstly, GoI can’t discriminate between regions. If it has drawn up a policy for the entire country, then it can’t leave out the cities. That will be anti constitutional.
Secondly, most of the schools, colleges and institutes are located within the city. Even after 62 years of independence, the situation remains almost unchanged. Although, educational infrastructure in rural areas, have indeed improved, it is still not near enough to meet the requirement. Keeping cities outside the scope, will be like keeping majority of the facilities outside the scope of reservation, which will defeat the purpose of reservation only.
Thirdly, keeping the city outside the scope of reservation, is like denying reservation to the backward people, just because they live in cities. Approximately about 10% live in city. Most of them are engaged in menial profession of sweepers, cobblers, etc. They may not be as discriminated against as their counterparts are in the rural areas, but they still belong to the same pool, created due to sever oppression in the past. Excuse of living in the city doesn’t take away their social backwardness.
Fourthly, if the system of reservation is applied only in the rural areas, and urban or semi-urban areas are kept out of the system, it will cause severe migration. People, who would feel that they can’t get into regular institutes or colleges, through open competition, will prolly move to the nearby city. This will cause, immense pressure on these cities’ infrastructure. Similiarly, people who should have been eligible for the reservation, but is denied so simply because they live in city, will move to the areas that enjoy reservation. This will result in severe demographic change and lead to polarization of communities.
I think you are making it a habit now, that whenever you can't reply to a point, you simply start afresh in a new format!! Why don't you simply stop? Care to elaborate on your view that I exposed as flawed to the core?karnivore said:3.Reservation is “discrminating against the merit” ?
The question of “discrimination against the merit”, is actually a farcical argument. As long as our education system promotes mediocrity by means of private colleges, that accept admission through capitation fees, as long as there are NRI quotas or ministerial quotas, which are virtually auctioned off to the highest bidder, this argument will fall flat. AIMS has an inhouse quota of 25% for its PG courses, which, in most cases are filled with students with much less marks than those of external students.
Calling a logical argument as emotional, is again a flaw in your logic. Reservation has everything to do with it. Because of reservation a regular college falls sick and "denies" admission (not the test) to the one who got better marks.karnivore said:4.“What about a poor general category student who got higher marks, but a quota student got the seat?”
This is actually an argument from emotion. There will always a student who will not be admitted into a college, simply because the cut off mark is higher than what he has secured. This is due to infrastructural limitation, reservation has nothing to do with it. Had there been no reservation, a student below the cut-off mark would still have not been admitted. Blaming it on reservation is just being ingenious.
This argument is also an argument from ignorance. All major nationalized banks provide student loans, without any security. The installment payment begins from the year, in which he gets his salary. Income tax, gives a deduction u/s 80I, of IT Act, on such payment, for 8 consecutive year. The poor student can take out a loan and get admitted to a private college.
Thats a major flaw once again.karnivore said:Not by a long shot. By saying, that reservation promotes inequality, one simply assumes, that the socio-economic equality exists, and that caste based inequality doesn’t. The fact is that caste based discrimination has pushed these people to the fringe of the society. For generations they have been denied access to civil amenities, just like the native Indians in US, and blacks in SA, particularly in education. Most of them depend upon the upper caste for their livelihood.
1. Hindus in kashmir?karnivore said:Mandal commission used 11 criteria to measure backwardness:
Social
1.Castes/classes considered as socially backward by others.
2.Castes/classes which mainly depend on manual labour for their livelihood.
3.Castes/classes where the percentage of married women below 17 is 25% above the state average in rural areas and 10% in urban areas; and that of married men is 10% and 5% above the state average in rural and urban areas respectively.
4.Castes/classes where participation of females in work is at least 25% above the state average.
Educational
5.Castes/classes where the number of children in the age group of 5 to 15 years who never attended school is at least 25% above the state average.
6.Castes/classes where the rate of student drop-out in the age group of 5-15 years is at least 25% above the state average.
7.Castes/classes amongst whom the proportion of matriculates is at least 25% below the state average
Economic
8.Castes/classes where the average value of family assets is at least 25% below the state average.
9.Castes/classes where the number of families living in kachcha houses is at least 25 % above the state average.
10.Castes/classes where the source of drinking water is beyond half a kilometer for more than 50% of the households.
11.Castes/classes where the number of the house-holds having taken a consumption loan is at least 25% above the state average.
What they found was the SC/STs and certain other classes (which they called OBC) failed miserably to pass their criteria. The forward class, i.e. the Hindu Upper Class fared, much much better on these criteria, although they comprised of much less percentage of the total Hindu population. On the basis of this finding they asked for quota for the SC/STs and OBCs. Today, the situation has remained largely unchanged, although positives are slowly trickling in.
Claiming, that reservation promotes inequality, is akin to dismissing this finding as well.
Does all of it has "anything" to do with "discrmination", that is generally not practiced in cities? What does "merit" has to do with the percentage of a class of a people? I think you have started posting arguments that are remotely connected to the concepts of reservation. Confused??karnivore said:What they found was the SC/STs and certain other classes (which they called OBC) failed miserably to pass their criteria. The forward class, i.e. the Hindu Upper Class fared, much much better on these criteria, although they comprised of much less percentage of the total Hindu population. On the basis of this finding they asked for quota for the SC/STs and OBCs. Today, the situation has remained largely unchanged, although positives are slowly trickling in.
Its funny to see how you are ignoring all the logical, political, realistic factors affecting reservation. You even managed to ignore the root cause. Let me say clear enough......karnivore said:I am not sure, what data you are referring to, cause data shows just the opposite. For example, total number of people who have done graduation or anything above, is 37,670,147. For SCs, the number is 2,316,640 and for STs, the number is 761,179. In other words, of the total graduates, only 6.15% are SCs and 2% are STs. (I don’t have OBC data). If anything, this reservation has to continue.
The reservation system is reviewed on regular basis. It was done in 2006, which later on, resulted in an unrest among the misguided students. The reason it was increased, was purely politics. Even if we discount the political angle to the increase, it still doesn’t mean that the “so called "socially discrminated" ones are rising in numbers” beyond the normal rate of increase. They are so large in number, SC and ST together consist of close to a fourth of our entire population, and adding OBC, it will be close to three fourth, and the reservation is so disproportionate to the size of their population, that it has created a severe back log, so to say. Census 2001 stands testimony to it.
A victim can never be healed if the "disease" he is suferring from is not eradicated in the first place. Here the "victim" denotes all those who are discrminated. And the human population is not static, that no new souls will be born or face discrmination. For someone who couldn't conquer the bar of merit, introducing a higher bar for him is certainly injustice for him.karnivore said:One more time. “Discrimination” is your metaphorical rape, while, “reservation” is the metaphorical healing of the victim. “Discrimination”, like the metaphorical rape, must be addressed through law and awareness.
One of the major factors that is blurring your vision is that you assuming that "atrocities occur on all of the backward classes"kanrivore said:I have not denied that economic discrimination doesn’t exist. I agree, sometimes the line becomes blurred. But, you are completely rejecting that atrocities against backward class happen, just because of their caste, going so far as to say that “the factor of "cast" is almost null”. You are attributing all crimes to economic discrimination. Before filing a FIR, the police needs the name of the victim or the one who is filing. So yes, they get to know what class that victim belongs to. Yes, house maids are sexually molested, because she is a dalit.
A rich dalit, if added to your cocktail, again makes it tasteless! It again shows how cast can become opposite of "economic backwardness". A rich dalit is economically sound. And a cocktail where poor is added with a cast (say rich dalit) becomes flawed, since poor and rich (dalit) are contradictory!!karnivore said:If one is poor, there is a whole lot of problem. Add to that the caste factor. And you have got a perfect cocktail there. Here’s some data:
In the year 2004 alone, there were 26,887 reposted cases of crimes against SCs alone. Atrocity incidences accounted for about 33% (4,699) of the total crimes while other crimes accounted for 43%, hurt 14.2%, rape 4% and murder 2.4%. These were all, what we call, hate crimes.
In Maharashtra alone, there were, 4864 cases of crime against SCs, between 2000 and 2006. Only 200 of those faced conviction.
Once again you "didn't reason why", but only opined? I hoped you would ask for "data". Calling reality as naive assessment once again reflects how a firm "believer" you are that you don't even see the reality and logic. You are simply incapable to understand the plight of a Delhite! Being a Delhite, I enlightened you with the situation in Delhi, told you how village problem doesn't just reflects to village alone but reaches to cities when most of the students come to cities and disappears in them when those students are dissolved in the existing chaos of the city and cities become a hub of people from all walks of life. Once again.....karnivore said:Naïve assessment.
Like I already exposed, stop treating US scenario with that of India!karnivore said:That actually shows rigidity and unwillingness to learn, on your part. I quoted Mr Andre Beteille, to explain the thought process that went into creation of this reservation, i.e. affirmative action or positive discrimination.
Mr Andre Beteille is not anti-reservationist, neither are any social scientists. He, like many others, is against quota method of reservation, not against reservation, per se. He advocates, the American system of open ended reservation, as opposed to our exclusive system of reservation. Since, you haven’t read enough of these sociologists, you don’t get the meaning of affirmative action. You probably don’t even know, how many country operates on the idea of affirmative action. Reservation is not unique to India, quota system is.
I wonder why you brought the discrminatory practise in TN as an argument here itself, to show how many are being facilitated and how many are being discrminated? How absurd!karnivore said:Funny assessment. Although the total reservation adds upto 69%, in practice it doesn’t go beyond 49.5%. They have a peculiar method of calculating the absolute numbers. Anything beyond 49.5% would be unconstitutional as per Supreme Court verdict.
Before being an armchair analyst, the least that is expected of you is to have some knowledge of things that you intend to analyze.
By first setting the criterias of the data correct. So far all your point are flawed and contradicting.karnivore said:This is the million dollar quote. What shall we base our judgment of reality on ?
And that is perhaps the silliest quote. Who else will know reality better of a place than the one who is living in it??karnivore said:And the villager gains knowledge, through some divine whisper
karnivore said:ONce again the sachar report, mandal commision and the cenus data do not show "IF THE ROOT CAUSE AND THE SENSE OF PERCEPTION AND DISCRIMINATION" has been lowered. Further, They are apathatic to the general class student who is financially unstable.
The report and the protagonists, it seems, are all hypocrites in setting "biased" criterias itself and further apathetic to meritorous candidates and poor general class!!karnivore said:Well boo hoo…
Is that why IITs and IIMs are against reservation? Your personal experience is also clearly flawed. By seeing 2 brown Indians you cannot say all Indians are brown. You cannot treat a percentage as a whole!!karnivore said:Personal question. Anyway, no, I was one of the “fortunates” to be born in a Hindu Upper class. I never needed reservation and reservation never really effected me. Never. And since, we are into personal experience, my personal experience is that only mediocres, who can’t get into better colleges, whine against reservation.
I am talking of the "logic" behind "progressive taxation" that could be utilized to measure desperation. Read it again!karnivore said:Lets see. Of 9 years of professional life, I have been a tax consultant, for 4 years, (3 years as assistant to a senior one), and of 3 years of my apprenticeship, before I got my degree and started my professional life, 1 year has been in the tax department of my firm. Believe me. I know exactly what I am talking about, when I am talking about tax. That tax system is called progressive taxation.
Now does the method of progressive taxation measure “desperation” ?
mediator said:1. Reservation leads to the never ending "cast system".
2. Percentage of reservation has gone up. No revision has been made and hence meritocracy has been discrminated even further.
3. It creates a "certified" category of who is "reservation tagged" and "who really competed".
4. Reservation is not remotely helping them buy internet connection or a computer, books, or anything that is used to do practicals and homework. Read the story of an IITian (A.P) once again.
5. A system that is divorced from competition and denying a "holistic development" of a student, I guess, is really "not giving" him what is needed. Development of personality and speaking manners are a part of education.
6. More souls are born, and the "root cause of the problem" remains the same. Brahmins are pictured as monsters and hence society starts looking down upon them. Look at yourself alone, saying all of it started with "Brahminism". Have you ver wondered it might lead to a reverse situation, where Brahmin might be discrminated in future?
7. Again, what about a poor general category student who got higher marks, but a quota student got the seat?
1. First you state "CAUSE" is independent and now "BS"?? I have been "forced" to understand the meaning of backward classes in graduation, whether my friend is the tagged ONE or not. It again shows how much awarness you yourself need desperately, let alone the awarness in villages. It is only "facilitating" and "not ending" the whole drama.karnivore said:1. BS
2. Again BS. Learn about Knowledge Commission
3. Unless, you are an employer, how would you know if your dalit neighbor has taken the help of reservation. Or again, as I have asked this to MetalheadGautham, you are just judging by one’s surname. That’s called racism.
4. BS. I would agree, it is not happing thick and fast. But it is happening.
5. Some more BS.
6. Even you called them fake. You can wish as much as you want, history will continue to be same.
I exposed your lies before and on this one too. Denying won't help. I believe we should keep the true definition of varna system in the debate. You yourself were ignorant about the "holy texts" So how could have you "shown" them of their holy texts? Its like a science fan who knows nuthing about science is in pursuit of telling others how science works! How absurd!karnivore said:I didn’t quote Manu Smriti as part of my argument. Interpretation of verna was never an argument. I quoted to show, the members what their holy texts say. Simple. No need for mental gymnastics.
Are you even reading properly? Or assumed "BS" as a primary reply to that gets overriden by some vague higher thoughts that are below the threshold of logic anyways?karnivore said:And what enables him to “get facilties, and jobs” so that he can get "financially sound" ? Some divine intervention I guess.
Without experimenting we will never know! Like I said, awareness spreads like a wild fire, just like rumour. But it is important that we sow the seed of awareness first. If people like you and others keep degrading the meaning of scriptures by bringing in manusmriti and all sorts of "ignorant views" in the first place, then even that "seed of awareness" will remain far from being germinated.karnivore said:How do you suppose, you would implement “strict laws” ? How do you suppose to develop whole village, to the extent that economic discrimination is completely eradicated, with the limited resource available to GoI. And how long do you think it will take.
Once again, you are in full contradiction of your own views.karnivore said:Mental masturbation, only ejaculating confusion of mind. Your score in IIT, or for that matter any exam that you wrote last, becomes a part of your past performance immediately after you finish writing the exam. Just that, it will be your immediate past. A single exam is just a test of your performance on that given day, on those given set of questions. The reason why social scientist ask for result of “nursery”, in your words, in addition of immediate performance, is to judge one’s consitency of performance. This helps those who are genuinely good students, but fared badly due to reasons other than ability.
I didn’t know that it was rocket science.
Vinay Kripal and Minakshi Gupta (1999) conducted a study on the IITs. They found that the consolidated average graduation rate for all SC and ST students was 84% while for the general category students it was 94%. The Mean Cumulative Performance Index (MCPI) of students who enrolled during 1989-92, were 7.88 for 436 general entry students, 6.23 for 115 SC students and 5.93 for 21 ST students in their performance. Not too bad, is it?Digest this....
*www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1173139
About the admission procedure, here’s The ToI report on IIT-Khargpur.Ravinder Kumar Ravi, the chief complainant in the case, said the students had ample “evidence” to “prove” the IIT had discriminated against them.
“Some of us have been referred to as sarkari jamai (in harsh terms, someone who has an exaggerated sense of entitlement from the government),” Ravi said.
Another of the students, Deepak Kumar — in second year civil engineering — said his marks had dipped the moment his course coordinator came to know he was an SC.
“At the end of the first term, the course coordinator came to know my caste name. My scores have taken a sharp dip from that point, and I fear my caste may be responsible,” Kumar said.
The unsuccessful candidate happened to be one from the backward community.-In October 2006, the parent of an unsuccessful candidate filed RTI applications asking for cut-off marks, procedure for arriving at them and marks of the students above the cut-off marks in the IIT-JEE held that year.
-In December '06, IIT Kharagpur gave an evasive reply saying there was "no fixed procedure or technique" for deciding the cut-off marks. It said the decision is made each year "depending on the overall performance of the candidates".
-In May 2007, after hearing an appeal filed by the aggrieved parent, CIC directed IIT Kharagpur to disclose all the information sought under RTI and issued notice on why penalty should not be imposed for its failure to do so till then.
-The same month, IIT Kharagpur, besides disclosing the cut-off marks and marks of the students above those levels in each of the subjects in the 2006 JEE, came up with the first version of the procedure for arriving at the cut-offs.
-In June 2007, CIC issued a non-compliance notice as the stated procedure did not tally with the cut-off marks.
-In July 2007, IIT Kharagpur said the information provided by it was correct.
-In August 2007, CIC issued a second non-compliance notice.
-The same month, IIT Kharagpur came up with a second version of the procedure for determining the cutoff marks.
-In September 2007, CIC closed the case on the basis of the second version.
-In October 2007, the appellant asked CIC to reopen the case saying that even the second version did not tally with the cut-off marks.
-On December 7, CIC, reopening the case, directed IIT Kharagpur to comply with its directions "in full" by January 15.
Vinay Kripal and Minakshi Gupta (1999) conducted a study on the IITs. They found that the consolidated average graduation rate for all SC and ST students was 84% while for the general category students it was 94%. The Mean Cumulative Performance Index (MCPI) of students who enrolled during 1989-92, were 7.88 for 436 general entry students, 6.23 for 115 SC students and 5.93 for 21 ST students in their performance. Not too bad, is it?
Did u realize that this report is 29 years old?Aikara (1980) found that, 5% of the SC students in his sample, had at least 1 college-educated parent, as compared with 32% of non-SC students; 34% of the SC students had 2 illiterate parents, as compared with 11% in the case of non SC students. 88% of SC students had at least partial freeships (scholarships) to support them in their studies, and only 4% of them relied largely or fully on parents or relatives for financial support; the corresponding figs for non-SC students, by contrast, were 14% and 64%. He also noted that the primary reason as to why SC students dropped out of college was failure at exams; but almost as significant was a need to find employment in order to provide financial support for oneself and one's family.
The year when I got selected, the cut-off for general category was 210, and for SC, it was less than 140.Do ur maths and see the difference for urself.“The cut-off marks at IIT entrance exam as well as passing marks in particular subjects in IITs are not fixed. The cut-off marks for SC/ST students in IIT entrance exams, in any year, is normally 10 % less than the general category cut-off in that year. The IITs follow relative grading in course work. There is no fixed minimum passing marks. Even if any IIT student has scored 60 % in any particular subject, there are chances that he/she might be declared failed, if the average score of other students is slightly higher. Or he/she might not be failed. Since there is no fixed passing marks, to pass students who have scored less than average becomes the prerogative of individual faculty members. ”
This must also be from one of your 29 years old reports?he truth that emerges out is shocking, to say the least. Dalit students who are admitted in IITs are marked as ‘weak’ and ‘non-meritorious’ from the very beginning and their stay in IITs are made as painful as possible. Such behaviour has been institutionalised and has been perfected into a fine art by many faculty members.
According to the IIT administration, all SC/ST students entering into the IITs are ‘weak’, as they come through Reservations. They use each and every opportunity, both inside as well as outside the classes, to make sure that these students are kept aware of this fact that ‘all general category students are meritorious whereas SC/ST students don’t deserve’ to be in IIT’.
However, the truth is that most of the Dalit students entering into the IITs are often toppers of their respective schools. They are, mostly, second generation literate and hail from lower-middle class, rural or semi-urban backgrounds with non-English medium schooling. In comparison, the general category students are invariably from upper-middle class, urban, upper-caste, English medium backgrounds. Not only are there marked differences in the backgrounds of the students from these two categories but also their routes to IIT differ immensely. And I would like to argue that this is where the ‘merit’ is constructed.”
4-5 years ago, AIR 1 of JEE was expelled out of one of the IITs because he wasn't able to perform, but it never made the news because he wasn't SC.Expulsion of non-performers fro IIT isn't a new thing.The Telegraph also did a report on this particular incident. What they found, was almost identical to Mr Anup Kumar’s finding – that caste discrimination exists at IIT-Delhi.
My knowledge of the grading system is second hand, I admit. However I do understand what relative grading system means, along with the merits and demerits.Do u even know how the grading system of IITs work?It's a relative grading sysytem where someone's grades doesn't only depend on how much he has scored, but it also depends on mean marks scored by the class and deviation of marks.It's a pretty fair system and is being practised in most of the top engg. colleges across the globe.
Your sharp eye missed two things. A. The research was in 1999, with data relating to the year 1989-92. The demands of CGPA, (it was probably not in place then and perhaps thats why the researchers had to calculate their own MCPI) would be much less then than today. B. I called it "not bad", on basis of comparison to the general catergory students. 84% graduation rate, against 94% can't be that bad, considering their backwardness, or shall I say "weakness". (Authors were of the same opinion, btw). MCPI of the SC was 6.23 compared to general category which was 7.88. STs, I will admit ,were in a bad position in comparison, with 5.93.6.23 isn't too bad??are u kidding?in present day scenerio a person with CGPA 6.23 won't even get a job.. not even a meagre 3.5lpa cosultancy job. 7.5 is the minimum CGPA required by most of the good companies.i think u don't know that who just passes is all subjects with E grade gets 5.0 .
I did notice. If my intention was to score cheap brownie points, then I would have suppressed the date.Did u realize that this report is 29 years old?
Resevation on the basis of caste was justified at that time, but today it's not.
Since I do not have any means to verify your claim, I will take it at face value, and leave it at that.The year when I got selected, the cut-off for general category was 210, and for SC, it was less than 140.Do ur maths and see the difference for urself.
If a person is scoring 60% in a subject when the rest of the class is scoring 90%, then the person should definitely fail.
No. It was a report related to ouster of about 21 SC/ST students in 2008.This must also be from one of your 29 years old reports?
It appears as irony to you, because, you probably do not know that India is constitutionally a welfare state. That is why, you pay a fraction of the cost that IIT incurs on you. We, the taxpayers, pay the rest of the money. Then, you will run abroad, pissing on our money. That, my dear friend is irony.Today these guys gets a lot of extra facilities.
First off, there are preperatory classes.The category guys who aren't good enough to make it through JEE(even with the relaxed cut-off for SC) are admitted into IITs and are taught class 12th syllabus for one year.IITs waste their resources on guys who aren't even receiving technical education.Irony isn't it?
That is the least that the state can do.All the SC guys are given scholarships just because they are SC.
I guess, now you are getting emotional. It is very difficult to disregard evidence.We can take 3 books from the library in a semester, they gets 7.And even after all this, when those guys doesn't perform and gets expelled, teacher is accused of practising casteism.
Am I glad to hear that.I have completed 2 years and I've never seen any instance where teacher made any caste related comment.
Not sure I got that.Most category candidates in my college are from urban areas(many are from metros) and had taken coaching to clear the JEE.How did the routes differ?
Yes I know. No body is denying that. Prejudices against SC/ST run so deep, that every incident needs to be scritinised.4-5 years ago, AIR 1 of JEE was expelled out of one of the IITs because he wasn't able to perform, but it never made the news because he wasn't SC.Expulsion of non-performers fro IIT isn't a new thing.
The research was in 1999, with data relating to the year 1989-92.
Just getting the degree isn't impotant.everyone studies to get a job.I called it "not bad", on basis of comparison to the general catergory students. 84% graduation rate, against 94% can't be that bad, considering their backwardness, or shall I say "weakness".
I believe that the reservation system was designed to give a chance to those who remained economically backward because of discrimination.This isn't exactly what is happening today.What is the use of a system when it is unable to serve its cause?Funny thing is, today you are saying, that they needed reservation 29 years ago. But 29 years ago, people like yourself were saying they didn't need it. So 29 years from today, I suppose someone will say that they needed it today, but not during his time. Where does it stop.
Do u really think that just by getting in a college where someone doesn't belong, uplifts him socially?All reservation is meant to do is economic upliftment, and when the people who are getting in through reservation are already economically well off, it's a fail of reservation system.why shouldn't the reservation be on the basis of economic condition?Besides, on what basis are you saying that in 29 years the situation has improved so much that they wouldn't need any reservation now. Can you please reflect on that.
JEE had released the marksheets of every canidate as well as the cut-off marks that year.U can verify if u want.The competition is so tough that 1 mark in JEE can easily set someone down by 300 ranks.How can someone stand upto those who were 70 marks above them?I feel pity for those who were just below the cut-off and lost the apportunity of their lifetime just because of reservation.Since I do not have any means to verify your claim, I will take it at face value, and leave it at that.
Do u really think that it's only the SC/ST students who gets expelled?Every year students are expelled rom IITs.Expulsion is based on performance and has nothing to do with the caste.When a general category student is expelled, he is a non-performer, and when a SC/ST is expelled, it is discrimination??No. It was a report related to ouster of about 21 SC/ST students in 2008.
I have heard such statements a number of times.I can't understand what people want us to do.If we get into IAS,people have a problem.If we get into IIMs, people have a problem.If we join some MNC,once again people have a problem.I guess, people want us to join the public sector companies where there is no scope for innovation.Higher education as well as the research facilities in india are very poor, so we don't have any choice but to run abroad.It appears as irony to you, because, you probably do not know that India is constitutionally a welfare state. That is why, you pay a fraction of the cost that IIT incurs on you. We, the taxpayers, pay the rest of the money. Then, you will run abroad, pissing on our money. That, my dear friend is irony.
Then keep on giving full scholarships to people who are already driving a mercedes.It's ur money afterall.That is the least that the state can do.
I m not getting emotional.I don't even care.I was just giving examples of the extra facilities they get.On the meaner side, i m gaining a lot because of this reservation.These guys brings down the average and helps me i getting better grades.I guess, now you are getting emotional.
I was implying that the people who are getting in through reservation are not economically backward and they had every opportunity of getting in just like any other candidate.Then why the hell did they got in when there were thousands of candidates who had scored better than them??Not sure I got that.