forget about the reservation system....should this forum exist?????
You are now shifting the goal post. I do agree, though, that data is pretty old. (Since this is 2009, you will perhaps argue that we shouldn’t consider Census of 2001, because it will be pretty old by now) However, your contention with that quote of mine was not old data, if I recall correctly, but how CGPA of 6.23 is not good enough today. I merely pointed out, that in the late 80s and early 90s, CGPA, if it at all existed, of 6.23 would have been considered not too bad. In fact, I was assessing keeping in mind the old data, while, due to pure oversight, you made an assessment considering it to be current data.If i do a study today with the data of 1980,will it start reflecting the current picture?
There is so much wrong with this statement, that it would require an entire book on sociology to argue. I will just give you a pointer. We don’t study, merely “to get a job”, although that’s what we are made to believe.Just getting the degree isn't impotant.everyone studies to get a job.
The line in bold is what is wrong with your understanding of reservation. It is not just “to give a chance to those who remained economically backward because of discrimination”, but to those who remained SOCIO-economically backward because of discrimination.I believe that the reservation system was designed to give a chance to those who remained economically backward because of discrimination.This isn't exactly what is happening today.What is the use of a system when it is unable to serve its cause?
I asked you one question and you are replying to another.Do u really think that just by getting in a college where someone doesn't belong, uplifts him socially?All reservation is meant to do is economic upliftment, and when the people who are getting in through reservation are already economically well off, it's a fail of reservation system.why shouldn't the reservation be on the basis of economic condition?me said:Besides, on what basis are you saying that in 29 years the situation has improved so much that they wouldn't need any reservation now. Can you please reflect on that.
I am sure, you are aware, how the IITs bungle on the cut-off marks.JEE had released the marksheets of every canidate as well as the cut-off marks that year.U can verify if u want.The competition is so tough that 1 mark in JEE can easily set someone down by 300 ranks.How can someone stand upto those who were 70 marks above them?I feel pity for those who were just below the cut-off and lost the apportunity of their lifetime just because of reservation.
I think I have already replied to that. Beside, why are you making tangential arguments.Do u really think that it's only the SC/ST students who gets expelled?Every year students are expelled rom IITs.Expulsion is based on performance and has nothing to do with the caste.When a general category student is expelled, he is a non-performer, and when a SC/ST is expelled, it is discrimination??
From finding irony in one egalitarian function of the govt, to a purely defensive stance on another egalitarian function of the govt. Only difference is that the later one, directly concerns and benefits you. How convenient.I have heard such statements a number of times.I can't understand what people want us to do.If we get into IAS,people have a problem.If we get into IIMs, people have a problem.If we join some MNC,once again people have a problem.I guess, people want us to join the public sector companies where there is no scope for innovation.Higher education as well as the research facilities in india are very poor, so we don't have any choice but to run abroad.
How many can afford Mercedes in the first place, let alone the backward communities. Like everyone else, you are basing your arguments on exceptions. How wise is that. You don’t chop your head off to cure your headache. We have a system of below poverty level (BPL) card, so that these really needy people can get some benefit of the state machinery. But you will see that a chunk of these BPL cardholders are no where close to being below poverty level. So how do we deal with it. Completely abolish the system, and deny those who were genuinely benefiting from this system or do we try to plug the loophole, and keep the system alive.Then keep on giving full scholarships to people who are already driving a mercedes.It's ur money afterall.
Some extra facilities to the backward community and here you are, pissed. And someone was saying that discrimination doesn’t exist. What about the discrimination that exists in our psyche, that we have so lovingly reared for generations. If govt. makes the facilities of IIT available to us at a fraction of a cost, it is just what the doctor prescribed. But if the same govt. makes the facilities available to another segment of our population, systematically discriminated and dominated for generations, in a different manner, it is something of a nuisance.I m not getting emotional.I don't even care.I was just giving examples of the extra facilities they get.On the meaner side, i m gaining a lot because of this reservation.These guys brings down the average and helps me i getting better grades.
Some are definitely taking advantage of the system. I am not denying that. But again, how many are they in numbers. If anything, they are pretty miniscule.I was implying that the people who are getting in through reservation are not economically backward and they had every opportunity of getting in just like any other candidate.Then why the hell did they got in when there were thousands of candidates who had scored better than them??
F* Caste based Reservation.....India wont come up with this crap...
It shud be based on Poverty , Social Backwardness n Limited...NOT on SH*** Casteism n Religion...
I hate the period during my engg counselling....lossing seats i deserved for my merit...
.Ambedhkar may good contrib like constitution n also this blunder which was taken advantage by f* politicians like arjun singh a$$ho13....hate all of them
i believe one day a revolt will come out to flush out this crap....
I would like to start off by saying I donot have a Minority status and I am NOT covered under the reservation act but still I voted Yes.
I feel reservation is needed for the less-privileged BUT reservations in the education system should be only upto High School. The standards of good quality education till high school would ensure they are equally educated and knowledgeable as any other student, rest its a fight for the best. Once they have attained that standard of education, they are equipped for the battles to be fought that follow, i.e. entrance exams, job interviews, there is no reason why a person should be given boost in the job market even though he is clearly underqualified in comparison to his/her fellow applicants.
So, the reservation system should ONLY apply till the school level, that too under strict guidelines of performance. When they are receiving quality education, there is no reason they should perform under-average.
You couldn't make it, because someone, in the category that you belong to, was better than you. Swallow your pride and work hard. While you are at it, quit blaming others.People getting less than my AIEEE marks have got seats in NITs in top branches because of reservation while I'm getting next to nothing.
and...The whole system is flawed by design.
Please show me a system that is perfect with capital P, with no one taking undue advantage of it.Many people abuse this reservation system.
-snipped-
One unassailable point is that the reservation system does more bad than good especially because of the unethical practices of the people who comprise of the system.
In 1991, the literacy rates among SC males and females in the rural areas, were, 46% and 19.5%. In 2001, the corresponding rates were, 53.7% and 37.6%. Increase of 7.8 and 18.1 percent points, respectively. Among non-SC/ST males and females, in 1991, in rural areas, the literacy rates were, 63.4% and 35.4%. In 2001, the corresponding rates were, 74.3% and 50.2%. That is an increase of 10.9 and 14.8 percent points, respectively. The interesting points that come out of this is:
1. SC females in 2001 were marginally ahead of what the non-SC/ST females were in 1991. Roughly speaking, they are about 10 years behind their non-SC/ST counterparts.
2. SC males in 2001 were still lagging behind what the non-SC/ST males were in 1991, by at least 9.7% points. They are lagging even miserably.
3. The rate of literacy among SC females is greater than that of non-SC/ST females, which means, that they will catch up with their non-SC/ST counterparts, eventually
4. The rate of literacy among SC males is far less than that of non-SC/ST males. This means, that the gap, instead of closing is still increasing.
We have a long long way to go. And we are talking of Mercedes riding dalits. Give us a break.
Lets see this myth of cut-off marks. Now suppose, to repeat an example given by another poster, the cut-off marks is, say 50% for a general category student, while it is say, 40% for a backward community student. Now suppose, a student secures 49.9%. What happens to him ? If he is a backward community student, he gets admission anyway. But if he is a general community student, he doesn’t.
But how much of the general category student’s prospects of getting admission been hampered by the “vile” reservation system. Nothing at all, actually. His prospect is neither improved, by the absence of the reservation system, since he will continue to be below the cut-off marks in spite of the absence of the reservation system, nor is it deteriorated, by the presence of the reservation system, for the same reason of being below the cut-off marks. This general category student is not “denied” an admission because he is a general category student, but because he has secured something lower than the cut-off. The backward community student, getting admission in spite of scoring same, or perhaps below the general category student, doesn’t actually effect the prospects of this general category student.
How many can afford Mercedes in the first place, let alone the backward communities. Like everyone else, you are basing your arguments on exceptions. How wise is that. You don’t chop your head off to cure your headache. We have a system of below poverty level (BPL) card, so that these really needy people can get some benefit of the state machinery. But you will see that a chunk of these BPL cardholders are no where close to being below poverty level. So how do we deal with it. Completely abolish the system, and deny those who were genuinely benefiting from this system or do we try to plug the loophole, and keep the system alive.
Some extra facilities to the backward community and here you are, pissed. And someone was saying that discrimination doesn’t exist. What about the discrimination that exists in our psyche, that we have so lovingly reared for generations. If govt. makes the facilities of IIT available to us at a fraction of a cost, it is just what the doctor prescribed. But if the same govt. makes the facilities available to another segment of our population, systematically discriminated and dominated for generations, in a different manner, it is something of a nuisance.
Do not forget, what is sauce for goose is sauce for gander as well.
Some are definitely taking advantage of the system. I am not denying that. But again, how many are they in numbers. If anything, they are pretty miniscule.
I had a friend who was financially sound, but still had a certificate to '2A' category under reservation. And when asked what this category was for, he replied, "Economically Backward" !!!!!. Now this is possible only if he had a fake one made. Or the system is so terribly loopholed that he was elegible under that category. Eitherways the damage was done. This is why and how reservation does more damage than good.
Actually, there is no crux. Everybody has his own axe to grind. Here a lot of people think that reservation should exist only in school (because, apparently it doesn’t effect them directly, and thank you for coming clean). While few others think that it should be abolished completely. I stated data on literacy on the whole issue of reservation.Actually the crux of this debate, as i have observed, is not whether Reservation System - Should it exist?
but
Reservation System in professional colleges - Should it exist?
So ?????Well, most admissions are based on rankings, which is basically a relative system of evaluation and not on absolute scores on tests. Here arises the problem. I think it is clear how reservation causes problems in this system.
Find me an SC/ST/OBC student who is blaming someone else for his failure, I will say the same to him/her.Why dont you say the same to the SC/St student?? Is he not capable of hard work because he is from a "backward" community??. And if you say he is at a disadvantage somehow that prevents from getting marks, please tell me how, i think i have a solution.
First define “low caliber”. Second, the most obvious one, so fukcing what ?Also let us look at this fundamentally and objectively from the point of view of the Institution, have they not receieved a student of lower calibre?
47% as opposed to 50%, as in the example ? Strange. Suddenly those “General Merit students” are quite acceptable now. Oh I get it. When it comes to general category, merit can take a back seat. How convenient.And ALSO, if it wasn't for the reserved seats, maybe the cut-off would be lesser, maybe 47% for GM(all) students. Now how can you say that the reservation doesn't affect the General Merit students in any way??
It is neither. It simply serves a different purpose than the caste based reservation system.I know many people have suggested abolishment of this sytem, BUT they have suggested it in the favour of a Finacial Aid system as a replacement. So I ask you the question now, isn't the Financial Aid system better and far less flawed.??
Please explain this. Only after that I can reply.How can you even think of saying both are good legislations? The former is flawed and latter is even more flawed. I'll be glad to explain how and why if you want me to. (dont want to make this post too long).
State policy doesn’t depend upon Mr Tom, Mr Dick and Mr Harry’s individual personal experiences.I doubt that they are miniscule, in my experience at the least, majority of these poeple are taking advantage of the system. (Please refer to my previous post).
Also let us look at this fundamentally and objectively from the point of view of the Institution, have they not receieved a student of lower calibre?
the most obvious one, so fukcing what ?
There might not be a Perfect system.But what makes you so certain that no system can be better than the existing one?Please show me a system that is perfect with capital P, with no one taking undue advantage of it.
You are not the only one who felt like talking to himself. My last post #95 still remains untouched and points dodged in every manner.iitian said:@karnivore
I left this thread because you just weren't listening.
So that’s what it is now. Charitably using “MOST” and “SOME”.I left this thread because you just weren't listening.In every post I was saying that this system is misused MOST of the times and in every other reply u were saying that every system can be misused SOMEtimes.I obviously didn't have the time or the patience to explain the difference between SOME and MOST to anyone who is not a 5 year old.
That is a non-argument. Actually a typical strawman argument. Reservation doesn’t require an institute to lower, its education standards, or lower its passing norms for the backward community. Reservation works and stops at admission. From there on, its all the same for all the students. The students getting into a college through the quota system will have to go through the same rigors of the education standard, set by the institute. So a student, graduating from an institute is expected to be equal to all the other students, in respect of training and imparting of knowledge.Now this is the most irresponsible reply in this thread.karnivore said:the most obvious one, so fukcing what ?
Picture this: Suppose you are having some heart trouble and have to undergo a bypass surgery.You come to know that the doctor who is performing the surgery is a just out of the college young fella who had flunked thrice during his medical studies.
What will be your reaction? Still "SO FUKCING WHAT?"?
When someone passes out from a premier institute, it is assumed that he has become the master of his field.But to make the masters of their fields, these institutes demand a certain quality in the students.By forcing these institutes to take the students of lower caliber we are downgrading the final product of these institutes.
Doctors, Engineers etc are the professionals on whom millions of lives are depending.We just cant jeopardize millions of lives to defend a system which is having not more than 50% efficiency.Can we?
Let me quote myself only. From post #70There might not be a Perfect system.But what makes you so certain that no system can be better than the existing one?
OTOH, i did reply to the part that i felt, made any sense. I didn't reply to the other parts, because, it was gibberish, and then you said...You are not the only one who felt like talking to himself. My last post #95 still remains untouched and points dodged in every manner.
Did you forget, that this page hasn't yet flipped and this post is for everyone to seeI think we should stop as it seems you have taken some kind of oath to dodge all my points and hop from one example to another and repeat and make me repeat everything again and again! This time I'm not asking you to quote my post #95. I guess your precious time is being wasted and then, this topic has seriously started to boooooore me to death.
+ I think the TRP of this thread has gone down.
Post #70@karnivore
1. I have read all your posts but still cant understand which colleges have denied admission to SC/ST students on the basis of their cast. Please explain further.
2. My best friend (who is SC), is from a small village from Bihar. He is also poor but somehow manages to pay his fees for VIT, Pune. He doesnt have a caste certificate, so cant use reservation system. If all you say is true, how did he get the admission in one of the top colleges of Pune? He has been my friend for 6 years now and i assure i have have enough knowledge about how things work in a remote village of Bihar.
3. The purpose of reservation is to uplift the socio-economically backward dalits and not just economically backward. What crimes have the non SC/ST/OBC economically backward people have committed so that they don't deserve reservation? You say that crimes were commited by people of open category for 2000 years. Are those people still alive? How can you punish people who are not alive anymore. I have never descriminated on the basis of cast and all of my good friends ( i mean ALL) are from backward class, then why do i get punished? Isnt it unfair?
Please provide some logical arguments which are lacking in your previous posts. Please make your posts clear and concise.
LOL I was away from this thread since I had to type loads of lines.^ you are dragging yourself into dirt,MHG. Once you got into the dirt, either you have to give up or you have to type hundreds of lines.
The truth is you've already made your way into dirt. Get ready for any one of above.
Post #70
Post #79
Post #93
It the above posts don't clarify my position, then I don't think anything else would do. There is nothing more for me to add.
However, in order to understand the nuances of positive discrimination, you have to first get rid of this typical elitist mindset that you are displaying.
While you are at it, quit playing the victim.