mediator said:
You know I didn't even know whether the person sitting in my class was a scheduled cast. For 3 consecutive years I was ignorant of his background. A few people having surnames like "Singh" and "Kumar", and later I found they were scheduled cast and entered through reservation. Not every "Singh" and "Kumar" is scheduled cast. I didn't even know what a scheduled cast was at that time. Who is responsible for such an an enlightenment?
Just when the society starts to forget such bullcraps, we are injected with a poison, that yes, something like this is there. So I guess you answered yourself. Removing such kind of illogical reservation would be the first step to bring these people into mainstream!!!
This is by far the most bizarre argument that I’ve ever come across. What you are basically saying, is that being ignorant of social issues/environment is actually a bliss. You are actually accusing a segment of society, for showing the ugly face of the reality to that segment, that was blissfully oblivious of the evils of casteism. I am speechless.
You think, just because, you (I understand that “you” represent a part of society, so ensconced, so cushioned, so pampered in their lives, they didn’t know that their so called perfect society is actually a façade) were not aware of casteism, it didn’t exist. More than 90% of our population do not reside in that society. They reside in a society where a school teacher takes it upon himself to purify his students from the touch of dalits by sprinkling cow urine, a society which registered 109,505 direct cases of atrocities against dalits during 1994-2004, a society, where, one has to walk for miles to access a well, in spite of a well being present in his village, a society, where the shadow of a dalit is worse that cow dung. Wishing these away, is not going to make these disappear.
But I guess, you are correct. Lets sweep the dust under the carpet and pretend nothing happened, ever. If I can’t see, it isn’t there. That’s all matters doesn’t it.
Wrong again!! First, religion has nothing to do with cast system as so conspicuous from your "born as lower cast" clause. Its all a part of human imagination. Second, what do you mean by "are stuck with it"? I thought you knew how people change their surnames these days so easily just like they can change their faiths. So I guess nobody is "stuck" with it. Third, instead of punishing the self-proclaimed upper class people for discrimination against lower caste, you are adding fuel to the fire by discriminating against the meritorous? How sane is that?
Justice won't be brought until you punish those who do injustice towards the weak or discriminate against meritorous students.
Firstly, caste is a direct result of “brahminism”. There is no two opinion about it. Second, casteism is not just about name or surnames. It is much deeper than that. Just by changing name one doesn’t change his caste. Indian Govt. officially doesn’t recognize caste. Therefore changing of caste, legally doesn’t even arise. If you are born as “untouchable” you just continue to be an “untouchable”. This is the most naïve view of the problem. If it were so easy to change caste just by changing names, there wouldn’t have been any dalit today, and they wouldn’t prefer to convert en mass. Third, the whole argument of “discriminating against the meritorious” is a myth. (I have already explained)
When did I say that they are the only people? Naming a few is sufficient enough to point out the flaw in your argument. You would also find plenty of people who call themselves pandits or brahmins, act like goons and know nothing knowledgable!! Telling me about the villages again reflects how you are ignoring the discrimination by those who call themselves as upper class. Who the heck is upper class neways?
Rubbish. Naming a few among almost a quarter of our population, majority of whom live below poverty level, doesn’t even come close to being an example at all. Mentioning one exception among millions of sufferers is actually a mockery of the sufferings of these people.
Telling you about villages, was my way of saying that the crux of the issue is not within the city limits, about begins from where the city ends. You are basing all your arguments on the basis of your personal experiences within your city, Delhi. Delhi officially doesn’t even have the Schedule Tribes (ST), or Other Backward Class (OBC), and you expect to understand their plight. Give us a break.
Next, I am not equating economic backwardness with social backwardness, but in general that there is nothing like cast system defining and categorising as to who is "socially backward" and that economic backwardness is the "cause" of much of the "social backwardness".
e.g, You are supposed to be a scheduled cast, and earn in crores. Do you think the society will give a damn about your "cast" or at the time of marriage?? You think the person can't change his/her cast even then? Try to check up the reality for it might knock you out.
Are you really saying what you are saying or am I just seeing things here. You don’t even know, why SC/ST and OBCs are called socially backward. You have no idea what is socially backward and what is economically backward. Not having purchasing power, is economical backwardness. Not having the right to purchase*, is social backwardness. What use is of purchasing power, when you don’t have power to purchase.
Where exactly are these crorepati dalits. I keep hearing, but I don’t see them. Where are they. And just how many are there, as percentage to the total population, as percentage to the total dalit population, as percentage to all the other crorepatis. Just look at 1991 and 2001 census data, and be ashamed.
You are basing your entire argument on exceptions. Exception, to you, is the rule, not a proof of the rule.
* “Right to purchase” is a collective term that I have used to denote, the rights that a dalit has to forgo just by taking birth as one.
Forget the forum, lets talk about the nation. Again, are you thinking about social justice at the expense of merit? I disagree again, the primary aim of reservation only remains in "theory". Political exploitation of the illogical system, discrimination towards the meritorous students, cursing them (reserved ones) with a life long tag of "reservation" which "indentifies" them differently as inferior of some sort and decieving the companies are the only "realistic" consequences of it. So I think, even the "theoretical" part of reservation is fundamentally flawed!!
Merit ? What is this mythical merit in Indian context ? How is it measured ? By means of an examination ? Lets bust the bubble of so called merit. I will use West Bengal as case study, because I am more familiar with WB.
In the late 80s and early 90s, during my times, there used to be a total of about 2500 engineering seats, all State Govt. sponsored. I kid you not. So if you were the 2501th student and wished to pursue engineering as career, you had only one option. Go to South, take admission in private engineering colleges. Cut to future, 2009. Today, there are close to 19,000 seats, mostly in private sector (set to increase by another 13,000). The govt sponsored seats have also increased. In any case, now, if you are 19,000th ranked, you still get to pursue engineering in West Bengal.
How shall I rank this guy as. Meritorious(?) or average. Now, how is this guy any different, from a dalit, who is scoring equal to him. We are willing to accept, this 19,000th ranked guy as an engineer, without fuss, without questioning if his mediocrity will put the nation at jeopardy, but if a guy scoring same as him, takes admission to a better college than him, through the quota system, all hell is supposed to break loose. Suddenly, this mythical merit becomes the key, although technically both of them will be engineers starting almost at the same level, right from the bottom of the corporate pecking order. Why ? Because, this OC guy couldn’t get admission to a better college. (In other states, this becomes even more acute, because the seats are almost twice or thrice as much WB)
The issue is never merit. It has never been. This argument of merit is a ruse to cover a more sinister mindset, something that we take for granted – we, the upper class, deserve the best. We conveniently bring out the issue of merit, when we see a dalit taking admission in a better college, forgetting, a guy, probably worse than his merit, is coming into the same profession as the dalit is, albeit through a lesser college, and will be assimilated in the same society, which is supposed to get effected by both their mediocrity. But since some people are more equal than others, mediocrity of the dalit is supposed to effect the society more.
Lets look at some of the universities of US, the land of dreams. Many here, doesn’t even know, that universities like Harvard, MIT etc. have a system in place, which requires much less SAT scores from American Indians, Hispanics and Blacks, compared to the others. It is called Affirmative action. Now that you know, Harvard or MIT promote mediocrity, how many are willing to get admission there. My wild guess is ALL.
The so called curse that you are talking of, is the exact social injustice that we are talking of.
First, the meaning and usage of the term "threshold" is flawed, for you know how people can show false income. You can even see how beggars try to act like really ill-fated carry a young child with them and when the whole drama is over, just try to peek at the corner they go to. You might be amazed how they wear totally new costume. For once I even saw a beggar at the back of a rickshaw in tidy clothes.
And what if that supposedly or paper conirmed "below threshold", "reservation tagged" guy rides a bike, wears fancy jeans, woodland T-Shirts, nice pair of Ray Ban glasses and spiky hair cuts?? I think you really need to check out the reality.
I think you live in Kolkata. Come to Delhi to witness the "miracles" happening right in front of your own eyes!!!!!
Once, just once in your life, think of the 90% of your fellow countrymen who don’t live in cities. If your argument of “threshold” is to be believed, there can be no criteria for any economic “relaxation” that you are so talking of. Now tell us, how do you propose to implement your economic “relaxation” without a “threshold”.
Again your example is actually divorced from reality.
Come on. Your reality is based on your city living alone. Mine is based on tiny tours to the interiors of rural India, where, unfortunately 90% of our population live.
Have you ever heard of people who got top ranks in IITs and DCE, but chose to go with DCE (Delhi college of engineering)? Its quite common actually. What will you call it, a slap to IIT?
The basic flaw here is that you are treating IITs as some ultimate prize. Have you ever heard of cases where IITians have been rejected because of their character flaws like high ego and unfriendliness? If not, then Believe me for its real!!
Ofcourse, every institution has its own criterias. You stated of IIT as if every other institute has criterias like IIT. Perhaps you would like to learn about "BIMTECH". There might be many others. Also, it is not necessary that a person who might be doing good in objective, be equally doing good in subjective which is the next stage. Like wise in many institutes there are further stages that involve GDPI. A person who is sound in aptitude and maths might not to be so fluent in English or friendly and confident in case of interviews. Hence, institutes might not have the same criterias.
Also, Its quite common for people who excel in CBSE board exams ( @mhg, ignore it) to perform bad later in graduation where they flunk and repeat semester exams. Whereas, there are others who were average, some who were considered as insolent brats in school perform excellent in graduation and post graduation.
So how come the merit based system becomes a "victim"? Thats how the system is and it gives you plenty of choices to opt from which might be different in many aspects. A student from a regional college might achieve high and a student from IIT might bite the dust.
Another flaw in your argument is that, what does someone's past performance has to do with IIT entrance test? I think IITs treat everyone "equally" on the day of test and "irrespective" of their cast, color, gender or wateva score (ofcors higher than 60) they scored etc. Just check out how many students in FITJEE, Pie , Vidya mandir etc study to just get above the criteria marks, i.e 60 or 65 whicheva it was, so as to qualify and then top IIT. While many others who perform well in CBSE, don't perform well in IIT. Past performance?
If the person cracks IIT, he is adding to his resume and to his "past performance". If not, it doesn't mean his resume can't be polished further. "Past performance" doesn't mean that those who were naughty in their skool time wouldn't shine in the future. And hence, your point of "past performance" is also flawed where it might be considered in some institutes and might not in others. Ofcourse, a past record of friendly nature has to be considered.
Missed the forest to hit the tree. You have no clue of what I was saying.
The remainder of the post is just uninformed tripe. You have shown complete lack of understanding of the issue at hand. You think Mayawati represents a quarter of our population, you think a corepati dalit or two, with ray-ban glasses, living within the sanctuary of a city, negate the plight of those in the rural areas, and therefore the whole reservation thing. I can guarantee, you have no idea of Mandal Commission report, or what census of 1991/2001 say.
Anyway…
