Reservation System - Should it exist?

[rhitwick]

The problem is much bigger than we can imagine.

Reservation upto High School won't improve the system.
I say, make study till High School (12th) mandatory and free of cost.
This way everyone (backword class or watever) will get a same chance of testing their merit.

Also, make entrance exams Free of Cost.
You know there are still a lot of people who just can't get a higher degree because of high cost of entrance exam. Even now, if someone dreams for MBA, he has to pay for every fcuking exam and form for every business school.
Many of us just can't afford to take the risk of picking as much as 20 forms to enhance our entry (this is independent of reservation).

Only solution I find, which is economical for the exam authorities too, is ONLINE EXAM and ONLINE FORM filling. Obviously those should be Free of Cost.

Now, the problem comes to getting educated or a degree.
Scenario:-
U can't afford higher study but U've passed the entrance exams. (Lets say, not a mark which earns a scholarship but at least a SEAT in your choice of B'School)

We need a system to overcome this situation. No reservation system would solve this.
They are reserving the seats but not lessening the fees, so, virtually its same as previous.

 

[sibot]

Financial aid can be given but admissions at university level has to be purely on merit basis.

 

[sujoyp]

I too will vote for free education in school thats up to 12th....after that student should go by merit...I dont wanna see a 35% scored student to be in NIT(national institute of technology) its just stupid that his forefather could not study soo he would also wont study but get seat in best colleges....

Reservation for anything be it poor people or cast will cause social division...and ultimately hatered

Better would be make everything free or everything on merit basis...

 

[gopi_vbboy]

And all anti-reservation activists should be first stripped off their social status, then made to work and toil like these backward classes were made to, for at least about 2000 yrs.

Pro-reservation activists are only trying the correct the wrongs perpetrated in the name of fukcing religion.

Mind ur words...we r not here abusing religion

thers no use of talking abt wat some ancestors hav done....wat can present gen oc's can do for wat some ppl in olden times hav descriminated....its like the oc's are now backward in terms of oppurtunities 2day.....do the present gen desrve for wat someone else has done...competition shud be free without restrictions n reservation or system will b unsable n inefficient someday

already TN has 69% reserv,AP has 50%

i know how these guys from Reservation study...they jus njoy wat they got...never seen atleast one who stood top in class

for a matter of fact...i hav some classmates who hav come though reserv..they are above middle class families only...not so poor...each of these guy gets scholarship n reservation seat...wat he does studies well?no...njoys....these guys get cellphones in their first year scolarship of 28k...wat else...money is goin the wrong way....they spend scholarship money wrong ways.....which they do not need n can pay.


i hav a classmate also who is o.c n poor background...studies welll.but struggled to get scholarship....see the fate!
so the reservation is already wasting big money of tax payer goin for wrong ppl...i mean for above creamy layer


i again say f* ur caste based reserv...gonna not help the country if limit exceeds n not based on poverty.

 

[MetalheadGautham]

You can't punish a man's son or grandson or great-grandson or any other ancestor for a crime the man initially did.

Nor can you punish a whole community for a crime only a majority of its people (read: not all) did.

I am totally against reservation. Its pointless in a modern society. I mean, modern girls today go after a guy for his charm, looks and brains. Or maybe wallets. Not because of his caste. And vice versa. No company intent on making profits will hire a n00b just because he is from an upper caste.

I today read a newspaper report which gave me shockwaves.

In Karnataka, our "glorious" CM decided to hand over Rs. 10000 to all SSLC (karnataka state board 10th standard) students who are girls from SC/ST families who got above 75% and Rs. 5000 to those who got 65% to 75%.

What th fu(k is that ? I remember my 10th standard well. I got 90.8% and I was a CBSE student. And a boy and from a so-called upper-caste. What did I get ? Nothing at all. And this year my sister in 10th is expecting over 95%. Whats she getting ? Nothing at all.

Does this CM even know WHAT Karnataka State Board Class 10 syllabus is like ? No he does not. Here, unlike CBSE, even average kids get over 85-90% (BTW, in CBSE even average kids get 75%). And he calls SC/ST girls with 65% and above meritorious ? Even the n00biest person (whether SC/ST or general student) I met in class 10 said karnataka SSLC exam was filthy easy and they could get 75%-80% without studying anything at all.

Infact, reservation has done more harm than good to the modern youth. I know many who have started hating SC/ST/OBC students because they feel that they too could have gotton into a better collage had the SC/ST/OBC students not had reservation benifits and competed in the same terms as others.

 

[Coool]

Reservation Suckss!!

 

[mediator]

If Casteism is not "Social Backwardness", then what is it ?

Nope its not. Is mayawati socially backward? All those so called 'leaders' in political parties with 'lower caste' stamp, are they socially backward? Its only the money power that decides who is backwards in todays time. While there may exist brahmins who really are not brahmins acc. to the "ideal" definition of the "varna system", they are not given any consideration. While 'tyical lower castes' if financially backward are then also considered socially backward. But is it true if the lower cast is not poor? I hope you know how easily people change their surnames in modern times and change their modern-age-defined caste.

Reservation based on poverty will only help in eradicating poverty.

If its financial help you are talking about, then I agree and if not then explain how?

What u r talking is also a kind of reservation. Isn't it?

We need to "define" who all are financially backwards to call financial help as reservation, which is plain slap on meritocracy. Until then we cannot call financial help as reservation. Its better to call it relaxation. People should be admitted on the basis of merit and then those who don't have sufficient funds to continue, should be given the relaxation, and made to compete on 'equal terms' and hence still upholding the meritocracy.

I personally know people from not so very finanically sound background and still doing good "without" carrying the tag of reservation, let alone the financial help. Many didn't even like the tag of reservation as they thought it would be a lasting curse on their career. While there are many from the rich background, and yet doing bad in life.

In graduation, there were many although good in theoretical knowledge , but extremely poor in practical knowledge in computers as they didn't have a computer at home, to buy pendrives or to get an internet connection. Is reservation helping them in that case? "WHAT IF" these students graduate without possessing the sound practical knowledge? Will the companies teach them the practicals? Every computer engg. student knows the importance of practicals. And when such kind of help is not give, they copy practicals and projects from seniors adding to the chaos. All the joy and excitement loses the very minute when somebody thinks of copying the projects!! Even the mechanical engg. projects like " Real Car project" etc needs sponsoring and are not achieved due to the illogical reservation. Sponsorship is done, people experiment, make a prototype, yield a model and then a working car and hence gaining vast amount of knowledge in the process.


Minority reservation, women reservation, cast based reservation? I think they should extend reservation to political parties and for the post of Prime Minister and President tooo.

What th fu(k is that ? I remember my 10th standard well. I got 90.8% and I was a CBSE student. And a boy and from a so-called upper-caste. What did I get ? Nothing at all. And this year my sister in 10th is expecting over 95%. Whats she getting ? Nothing at all.

WOW

 

[sujoyp]

I again disagree with all there financial help talks....India is soo corrupt that people will make those certificates so that they can take advantage of those financial help.....we saw what happened to bhopal gas leak....all the money was enjoyed by rich people and people who gave fake certificates....and poor people still die of pain.....no way i can see financial help will help in this...only corruption increases...
I will again say free is better....open government schools and make education free

 

[karnivore]

Mind ur words...we r not here abusing religion

Can you think of caste without first thinking of the religion that allows casteism.

thers no use of talking abt wat some ancestors hav done....wat can present gen oc's can do for wat some ppl in olden times hav descriminated....

Bravo !!!

For 2000 yrs, ostracize a bunch of people for being born into a particular family, persecute them, hound them, don't give them access to education, don't give them access to your religious rituals, don't touch them, don't let their shadow touch you, lest you loose your status, make them believe that they are the scum of the earth.

Then, 2000 yrs later simply dismiss their rights by a wave of hand saying that we, the genX, are not responsible for their fate. Therefore they must continue to live in the same ignominy that they have lived in for the last 2000yrs.

its like the oc's are now backward in terms of oppurtunities 2day.....do the present gen desrve for wat someone else has done...competition shud be free without restrictions n reservation or system will b unsable n inefficient someday

First make them live under your boot, then blame them for not being competitive enough. Excellent.

already TN has 69% reserv,AP has 50%

i know how these guys from Reservation study...they jus njoy wat they got...never seen atleast one who stood top in class

for a matter of fact...i hav some classmates who hav come though reserv..they are above middle class families only...not so poor...each of these guy gets scholarship n reservation seat...wat he does studies well?no...njoys....these guys get cellphones in their first year scolarship of 28k...wat else...money is goin the wrong way....they spend scholarship money wrong ways.....which they do not need n can pay.


i hav a classmate also who is o.c n poor background...studies welll.but struggled to get scholarship....see the fate!
so the reservation is already wasting big money of tax payer goin for wrong ppl...i mean for above creamy layer

Irrelevant personal anecdote. Unless you provide some real statics that shows that the backward classes are not doing good, given the opportunity, this rant is not going to count.

i again say f* ur caste based reserv...gonna not help the country if limit exceeds n not based on poverty.

yes you can fukc caste base reservation, for as long and as much as you want. It will only reinforce the arguments in favour of reservation.

 

[karnivore]

You can't punish a man's son or grandson or great-grandson or any other ancestor for a crime the man initially did.

Nor can you punish a whole community for a crime only a majority of its people (read: not all) did.

Its unfortunate that you think it that way. Please suggest me a method by which these people can be brought to the main stream. How do you suppose that a particular person, who has been inhumanly discriminated against, for generations, be able to compete with the ones who have always been privileged.

Once you are born as lower caste, you are stuck with it. You get thrown into the garbage of social pecking order. You automatically loose certain social rights, that we, the upper class virtually take for granted. Unless, they are given an opportunity, at the cost of our own privileges, which, btw, doesn't even begin to come closer to what they have been made to sacrifice, how do you suppose equality in social system be brought about.

Why do you expect to retain all your privileges, sacrifice none and then expect these people to compete with you, and then when they can't, make a mockery of them.

Infact, reservation has done more harm than good to the modern youth. I know many who have started hating SC/ST/OBC students because they feel that they too could have gotton into a better collage had the SC/ST/OBC students not had reservation benifits and competed in the same terms as others.

In other words, heads we win, tails they loose. GenX...my AZZ

 

[i hate babies]

why cant we just remove the block in all applications and certificates where it asks us to fill in our cast wont it solve most of the problem?
not all poor people are from the lower cast so why cant the government build some good schools and colleges for helping these people? they can also make it free if possible
in the old days we had cast which says who does what in the community and also marriage happens between the cast which poor people to remain poor but now it is not like that so why cant we just remove the importance to the cast? wont it be a better thing to do and help all kind of people in the society to move ahead

 

[rhitwick]

The problem is much bigger than we can imagine.

Reservation upto High School won't improve the system.
I say, make study till High School (12th) mandatory and free of cost.
This way everyone (backword class or watever) will get a same chance of testing their merit.

Also, make entrance exams Free of Cost.
You know there are still a lot of people who just can't get a higher degree because of high cost of entrance exam. Even now, if someone dreams for MBA, he has to pay for every fcuking exam and form for every business school.
Many of us just can't afford to take the risk of picking as much as 20 forms to enhance our entry (this is independent of reservation).

Only solution I find, which is economical for the exam authorities too, is ONLINE EXAM and ONLINE FORM filling. Obviously those should be Free of Cost.

Now, the problem comes to getting educated or a degree.
Scenario:-
U can't afford higher study but U've passed the entrance exams. (Lets say, not a mark which earns a scholarship but at least a SEAT in your choice of B'School)

We need a system to overcome this situation. No reservation system would solve this.
They are reserving the seats but not lessening the fees, so, virtually its same as previous.

Anyone want to comment on this??

 

[Liverpool_fan]

For 2000 yrs, ostracize a bunch of people for being born into a particular family, persecute them, hound them, don't give them access to education, don't give them access to your religious rituals, don't touch them, don't let their shadow touch you, lest you loose your status, make them believe that they are the scum of the earth.

lolwut? So for the so called 2000 years of suffering, suddenly the so called "lower-castes" should be spoon-fed?

Then, 2000 yrs later simply dismiss their rights by a wave of hand saying that we, the genX, are not responsible for their fate. Therefore they must continue to live in the same ignominy that they have lived in for the last 2000yrs.

Who said that? Kindly stay on topic.

First make them live under your boot, then blame them for not being competitive enough. Excellent.

lolunub? Who says they are not competetive enough? Again you are going off-topic.
But certainly if someone is not meritious, then he/she doesn't deserve anything just because their ancestors suffered.

Irrelevant personal anecdote. Unless you provide some real statics that shows that the backward classes are not doing good, given the opportunity, this rant is not going to count.
yes you can fukc caste base reservation, for as long and as much as you want. It will only reinforce the arguments in favour of reservation.

Again who said they are not doing enough? In fact there are plenty who do so well, that they hardly need any reservation.

As a side note, I am personally against caste based reservation. I personally believe on the basis of economic status, the poor who can't afford education should be provided free schooling/discounted school fees in good schools, books, free coaching, and reduced fees in colleges.

 

[MetalheadGautham]

Its unfortunate that you think it that way. Please suggest me a method by which these people can be brought to the main stream. How do you suppose that a particular person, who has been inhumanly discriminated against, for generations, be able to compete with the ones who have always been privileged.

A genious is MADE not BORN. What makes you think that same people from different castes from same schools fare better or worse depending on their caste ?

And what makes you think that by providing reservation people come to mainstream ? Do you know how much respect a person looses because he went ahead of another purely on the basis of caste ? Whether you are an upper caste guy who went up compared to lower caste guy due to social influence on n00b faggots who discriminate on caste, or whether you are a lower caste guy who went up compared to upper caste guy due to reservation - both loose respect in the eyes of civilised populations of India.

Once you are born as lower caste, you are stuck with it. You get thrown into the garbage of social pecking order. You automatically loose certain social rights, that we, the upper class virtually take for granted.

Are you from Iraq ? Because the last time I checked, none of my SC/ST/OBC friends lost anything when it comes to social rights here in a modern place like Bangalore.

Unless, they are given an opportunity, at the cost of our own privileges, which, btw, doesn't even begin to come closer to what they have been made to sacrifice, how do you suppose equality in social system be brought about.

Equality ? You mean to say, SC/ST/OBC people are equal to other people because they get "preferential treatment" by the government ? What an oxymoron.

Why do you expect to retain all your privileges, sacrifice none and then expect these people to compete with you, and then when they can't, make a mockery of them.

Can you tell me what "privilage" I have which others dont ? Everything I have is of my own creation. Nothing was brought upon me thanks to birth except half-decent financial security due to me being in a middle class family.

In other words, heads we win, tails they loose. GenX...my AZZ

Oh really ? You mean to say, if I am slower finishing a 1000m run compared to an SC/ST/OBC guy finishing a 900m run, I must say the race was fair ?

And yeah, BTW, I'm from GenY not GenX just for the reference.

 

[i hate babies]

The problem is much bigger than we can imagine.

Reservation upto High School won't improve the system.
I say, make study till High School (12th) mandatory and free of cost.
This way everyone (backword class or watever) will get a same chance of testing their merit.

Also, make entrance exams Free of Cost.

You know there are still a lot of people who just can't get a higher degree because of high cost of entrance exam. Even now, if someone dreams for MBA, he has to pay for every fcuking exam and form for every business school.
Many of us just can't afford to take the risk of picking as much as 20 forms to enhance our entry (this is independent of reservation).

isn't that happening because the education is made into a business where i live anyone who has a big land to build big buildings are starting colleges you can give them lacks in donation but you cant get any standard of education there
i think government should take education into their hands to prevent this from happening

Only solution I find, which is economical for the exam authorities too, is ONLINE EXAM and ONLINE FORM filling. Obviously those should be Free of Cost.

Now, the problem comes to getting educated or a degree.
Scenario:-
U can't afford higher study but U've passed the entrance exams. (Lets say, not a mark which earns a scholarship but at least a SEAT in your choice of B'School)

We need a system to overcome this situation. No reservation system would solve this.
They are reserving the seats but not lessening the fees, so, virtually its same as previous.

 

[karnivore]

Nope its not. Is mayawati socially backward? All those so called 'leaders' in political parties with 'lower caste' stamp, are they socially backward? Its only the money power that decides who is backwards in todays time. While there may exist brahmins who really are not brahmins acc. to the "ideal" definition of the "varna system", they are not given any consideration. While 'tyical lower castes' if financially backward are then also considered socially backward. But is it true if the lower cast is not poor? I hope you know how easily people change their surnames in modern times and change their modern-age-defined caste.

If you think that Mayawati or Mulayam Singh or Lalu Singh or Rambilas etc. are the only people who belong to this lower caste, they you are insulting your own intelligence. Just visit any village of UP or Bihar and knock yourself out.

On a side note, you are equating economic backwardness as social backwardness. It is not.

If its financial help you are talking about, then I agree and if not then explain how?

I was replying to something else. Go back and read it.

The general idea among the members of this forum is that caste-based reservation system is to alivate the economically backwards. It is not necessarily so. The primary aim of the reservation is to bring about a social equality, by enabling them to be represented in every segment of society. At the time of independence, there were hardly any backward class people in the administrative jobs. But today, they do get a representation, though not nearly enough.

The system is somewhat in the same line as Affirmative Action in US. (Affirmative Action, is entirely different system, but strives to achieve the same objective as caste-based system)

We need to "define" who all are financially backwards to call financial help as reservation, which is plain slap on meritocracy. Until then we cannot call financial help as reservation. Its better to call it relaxation. People should be admitted on the basis of merit and then those who don't have sufficient funds to continue, should be given the relaxation, and made to compete on 'equal terms' and hence still upholding the meritocracy.

If a person is getting a benefit, because his family income is below a threshold, then it is reservation. By calling it "relaxation" or "whackalooloo" would'nt really change it.

I would ask you to define "merit". What if I say, that what you are calling merit, is actually a persons performance on a particular day (e.g. JEE exam day). Of about 300,000 appicants, only 3,000 gets admitted to IITs. What about the 3,001th guy or the 3,002nd guy. Is he then mediocre because he couldn't make it to the IIT.

Of course not. IITs, or any other institute can't take more than a certain number because of infrastructuaral constraints. In other words, the so called merit-based system becomes victim to something which is not even connected to merit.

So really. Is it merit that is being judged here, or someone's performance on a given day that is judged. Is our system, really merit based.

And what about those private institutes, where donation holds the key. What about those systems. Is that merit based ?

Competing on 'equal terms'. 'Equal terms'? What does that mean. How can a person, whose family has been cleaning the toilets forever, compete with the one, who spends his spare time, hanging in supermalls or playing on his latest PS3, on 'equal terms'. Where is the equality ? Where is the oportunity to be equal ?

 

[MetalheadGautham]

I would ask you to define "merit". What if I say, that what you are calling merit, is actually a persons performance on a particular day (e.g. JEE exam day). Of about 300,000 appicants, only 3,000 gets admitted to IITs. What about the 3,001th guy or the 3,002nd guy. Is he then mediocre because he couldn't make it to the IIT.

Of course not. IITs, or any other institute can't take more than a certain number because of infrastructuaral constraints. In other words, the so called merit-based system becomes victim to something which is not even connected to merit.

Don't you see ? Only the best are given preference. Even a slightest difference in performance is considered when talking about merit. I just phailed IIT-JEE and AIEEE but I am not complaining. Why ? Because somebody was better than me and they got the ranks.

So really. Is it merit that is being judged here, or someone's performance on a given day that is judged. Is our system, really merit based.

Thats a completely wrong notion. To write IIT-JEE or AIEEE you need full 2 years worth of practice. Performance on a day won't differ by much unless the examinee decides to be extremely lax and casual about the exam.

And what about those private institutes, where donation holds the key. What about those systems. Is that merit based ?

Don't want to pay donations ? Don't study there. Simple as that. I am yet to see a private institute which askes for donations perform at par with merit based institutes as far as percentage scored by its students BTW.

Competing on 'equal terms'. 'Equal terms'? What does that mean. How can a person, whose family has been cleaning the toilets forever, compete with the one, who spends his spare time, hanging in supermalls or playing on his latest PS3, on 'equal terms'. Where is the equality ? Where is the oportunity to be equal ?

I have an uber rich friend who has a PS3, a PSP, a 60" 1080p Plasma TV, his family owns 4 cars and he has his own Karizma Bike worth 1 Lakh. I am just an average middle class kid.

Going by your logic he should beat me right ? Wrong. I get atleast 20-30% more marks than him.

Thats because academic performance does not depend on monetary assets. It depends upon how much a person studies, and how much a person tunes/sharpens his thinking power.

 

[karnivore]

lolwut? So for the so called 2000 years of suffering, suddenly the so called "lower-castes" should be spoon-fed?

"Spoon fed" is not the word, that I would use. But yes. Its been only 62 years, that we have got a country that we can properly call ours and can run accordingly. So yes, "for the so called 2000 years of suffering", it is our responsibility to bring about that change. What you are effectively saying is that, hey let them be how they are.

Who said that? Kindly stay on topic.

Everytime, when people like you use gibberish arguments against reservation, without actually understanding, what the purpose of the reservation is, you imply that only.

lolunub? Who says they are not competetive enough? Again you are going off-topic.
But certainly if someone is not meritious, then he/she doesn't deserve anything just because their ancestors suffered.

First, do you really know what the topic is ? Second, try to read things in perspective.

Again who said they are not doing enough? In fact there are plenty who do so well, that they hardly need any reservation.

Then I must be living in a different India. I am too tired to cite you 2001 census. It is public document. Go take a look.

As a side note, I am personally against caste based reservation. I personally believe on the basis of economic status, the poor who can't afford education should be provided free schooling/discounted school fees in good schools, books, free coaching, and reduced fees in colleges.

But that will remove economic inequality, probably. Caste-based system is for social inequality. Learn the difference.

 

[MetalheadGautham]

Let me tell you of my grandfather, a man whom I truly respect. This will tell you why anybody with a will to succeed can become great.

His father was prohaned at the age of 12 with 3 sisters to take care of. The only way to lead a life was as a priest doing various stuff. He was financially highly insecure.

My grandfather used to wear only a loin cloth and a dhothi to school. He had no shirts or pants. He used to use a pencil for a whole month atleast. Most of his books were second hand. Finally, when he had to go to collage, he had pants stitched out of dhoti cloth.

But none of this prevented him from studying engineering in a government collage with scholarship and becoming Kerala Water Works' Chief Engineer and heading the department. All this without help from reservation since he was from a so-called "upper caste" brahmin family.

He says he needed nothing more than the light of the sun to be able to read books. At night he used to read with help of street lights, but today everybody has bulbs at home. Tell me if anybody lacks this. I am a lot better off than him at the same age, but I use the same resources as him to study. The light of the sun. So do everybody else.

 

[rhitwick]

^ lets say, ur gradfather got entry to that govt. engg. college "without" scholarship. Then what??

What do u visualize then? How he could have managed?

Now, imagine the situation in today FORMAT with COST