Reservation System - Should it exist?

[mediator]

This is by far the most bizarre argument that I’ve ever come across. What you are basically saying, is that being ignorant of social issues/environment is actually a bliss. You are actually accusing a segment of society, for showing the ugly face of the reality to that segment, that was blissfully oblivious of the evils of casteism. I am speechless.

Wrong again! I'm simply saying that you are keeping the "evils of casteism" alive by telling the world again and again of "what" the casteism is, by magnifying the distortions that it is by "birth", cultivating a healthy ground for dirty politics and mocking meritocracy and yes, again forming categories of who are reserved/privileged and who are general/unprivileged! So instead if "realising" the root problem of the whole issue and punishing the culprits, you are actually "ignoring" the culprits and discriminating against the meritorous candidates? I'm speechless and this is the most bizarre form of justice (if it even comes under the banner of justice) I have ever seen!

You think, just because, you (I understand that “you” represent a part of society, so ensconced, so cushioned, so pampered in their lives, they didn’t know that their so called perfect society is actually a façade) were not aware of casteism, it didn’t exist. More than 90% of our population do not reside in that society. They reside in a society where a school teacher takes it upon himself to purify his students from the touch of dalits by sprinkling cow urine, a society which registered 109,505 direct cases of atrocities against dalits during 1994-2004, a society, where, one has to walk for miles to access a well, in spite of a well being present in his village, a society, where the shadow of a dalit is worse that cow dung. Wishing these away, is not going to make these disappear.

I simply don't understand why your logic and talks of justice are divorced from the action and instead stresses on reaction? Your bold stated part talks loud and clear how much you are ignoring the actions alone.

So what you are saying that in modern society if a policeman rapes a girl, then policeman should be ignored and even the steps to "eradicate" such sin also should be ignored BUT steps should be taken for "some theoretical" improvement of girl? How bizarre??

Don't you think that some laws should be present and implemented actively to "punish" that teacher (in ur example) or to prevent such crimes from happening in the first place? We don't want to "just wish these away", but "to actively work for the eradication of it".

You are just pointing towards a mere wish, while I'm telling you how to act with steps already stated. And these steps are not too difficult to implement !!!!

I don't see any mention of "karma" in Manusmriti...other than an indirect reference to birth

I wonder how many times I have talked about Manusmriti and Vedas in one post and sourced the reads......But there you go....

*www.hinduwisdom.info/articles_hinduism/283.htm

Read it, understand it and tell me in your own plain words what you understand by it. So the misunderstandings and distortions were there and many fell and still falling victims to it!

Firstly, caste is a direct result of “brahminism”. There is no two opinion about it. Second, casteism is not just about name or surnames. It is much deeper than that. Just by changing name one doesn’t change his caste. Indian Govt. officially doesn’t recognize caste. Therefore changing of caste, legally doesn’t even arise. If you are born as “untouchable” you just continue to be an “untouchable”. This is the most naïve view of the problem. If it were so easy to change caste just by changing names, there wouldn’t have been any dalit today, and they wouldn’t prefer to convert en mass. Third, the whole argument of “discriminating against the meritorious” is a myth. (I have already explained)

Stating as "Brahminism", again tells about your ignorance on the "varna system". I don't know how much you really know about Hinduism, but do you know Parshuram's story? The era when Kshatriyas tried to establish their total control? What will you call it, "kshatriyism"? And so today I guess, lower casts are njoying all the luxuries and merit takes a backseat. What is this? Shudraism?

So, you are wrong yet again! Cast is not a direct result of "brahminism", but how misunderstandings have happened. Even many theories of science are treated as facts as we discussed. Who is responsible?

If dalits can convert to christianity by showing the ills of cast system by the missionaries, then why can't they changed their cast? The lines in bolds again show that you are far far from reality!!

The third bold is like, in the presence of science and modern thoughts, the superstitions and all the marriages of children to dogs and frogs should have been ended. Do you care to elaborate why haven't they ended???

Do you really know how close and narrow minded world the remote villages live in? Again your argument that "it should have ended" is far from reality.

The only solution of both the problem lies in awareness of the true concept of the varna system, science etc.

But I guess, you are correct. Lets sweep the dust under the carpet and pretend nothing happened, ever. If I can’t see, it isn’t there. That’s all matters doesn’t it.

I think thats the only solution that you are proposing, i.e to ignore the actions and magnify the evil reactions!!

Rubbish. Naming a few among almost a quarter of our population, majority of whom live below poverty level, doesn’t even come close to being an example at all. Mentioning one exception among millions of sufferers is actually a mockery of the sufferings of these people.

Telling you about villages, was my way of saying that the crux of the issue is not within the city limits, about begins from where the city ends. You are basing all your arguments on the basis of your personal experiences within your city, Delhi. Delhi officially doesn’t even have the Schedule Tribes (ST), or Other Backward Class (OBC), and you expect to understand their plight. Give us a break.

The problem is that you are defining the sufferings on the basis of cast which is itself flawed. The "majority" that you stated also comprises of brahmins, kshatriyas etc, which I guess that you agree on that they suffer. I hope u understand that majority that lives under the poverty line isn't exclusive of brahmins and kshatriyas.

Now, the second bold again strengthens my point, i.e to eradicate the root cause of the problem and hence I stated Delhi. Do you really think I never went outside Delhi????
But you know, our suffering is that we are "made to understand" as to what the "OBC, SC/ST" is by the crappy reservation system and to generate a mental picture of human stupidity. What worse is that we get to witness the "reactions" (i.e reservation) on that stupidity which isn't concentrated on the root causes, but just to blast meritocracy from the face of earth. And so we see one stupidity is being encountered by another ignoring the root problem as to "who" started the discrimination, let alone the punishments!!

Are you really saying what you are saying or am I just seeing things here. You don’t even know, why SC/ST and OBCs are called socially backward. You have no idea what is socially backward and what is economically backward. Not having purchasing power, is economical backwardness. Not having the right to purchase*, is social backwardness. What use is of purchasing power, when you don’t have power to purchase.

Where exactly are these crorepati dalits. I keep hearing, but I don’t see them. Where are they. And just how many are there, as percentage to the total population, as percentage to the total dalit population, as percentage to all the other crorepatis. Just look at 1991 and 2001 census data, and be ashamed.

You are basing your entire argument on exceptions. Exception, to you, is the rule, not a proof of the rule.

* “Right to purchase” is a collective term that I have used to denote, the rights that a dalit has to forgo just by taking birth as one.

Forget about me, but I think I'm seeing what I expected to see that you are again going after the "ideal" definitions and scenarios that in reality are contridictory to its purpose!! You know recently supreme court ordered to list and define "who all are OBCs". Do you know why it stated that??

Just by repeatedly stating that "SC/St, OBC" etc are backward classes, you are actually drawing yourself away from the reality and picturing the reality as a kind of myth.

The last bold again shouts that you are ignoring the root cause. Who is supposed to give them the right? Who is stealing their right? If someone is denying them their right, then who is supposed to get them their right back? If a police man refuses to log complaint then who is guilty and what action should be taken and against whome?

And then, going by your "ideal" definition, I guess, all those OBCs and SC/STs who ride bike in colleges with fancy and faded jeans, "should have 'ideally' been denied the right to purchase* by the higher class"?? How did they purchase the bikes and all the fancies then?

Where exactly are these crorepati dalits. I keep hearing, but I don’t see them. Where are they. And just how many are there, as percentage to the total population, as percentage to the total dalit population, as percentage to all the other crorepatis. Just look at 1991 and 2001 census data, and be ashamed.

You are basing your entire argument on exceptions. Exception, to you, is the rule, not a proof of the rule.

Personally, ( yes in Delhi ) I know many. To show you an example, I guess, again an exception, Mayawati is enough, let alone her dalit "relatives" and "friends"!! You think her blood relations won't be rich? Open the TV and watch her live making her own idols. Its not a golden rule that I'm presenting what seems like an exception to you.

And I humbly request you to goto all the colleges in your constituency and get a list of the so called "socially backward classes" yourself and match if your idealistic words match the reality. I bet you'll be shocked!!

Forget the reality, even if a "percentage of rich dalits" is less w.r.t to total no. of dalits, then also don't you think the merit is being discriminated and "equal competition" being reduced??

*“Right to purchase” is a collective term that I have used to denote, the rights that a dalit has to forgo just by taking birth as one.

And law should be used to make sure that ..
A. they are not denied their right, and
B. Everyone gets "equal" rights
C. The discriminator be punished appropriately!!

Merit ? What is this mythical merit in Indian context ? How is it measured ? By means of an examination ? Lets bust the bubble of so called merit. I will use West Bengal as case study, because I am more familiar with WB.

In the late 80s and early 90s, during my times, there used to be a total of about 2500 engineering seats, all State Govt. sponsored. I kid you not. So if you were the 2501th student and wished to pursue engineering as career, you had only one option. Go to South, take admission in private engineering colleges. Cut to future, 2009. Today, there are close to 19,000 seats, mostly in private sector (set to increase by another 13,000). The govt sponsored seats have also increased. In any case, now, if you are 19,000th ranked, you still get to pursue engineering in West Bengal.

How shall I rank this guy as. Meritorious(?) or average. Now, how is this guy any different, from a dalit, who is scoring equal to him. We are willing to accept, this 19,000th ranked guy as an engineer, without fuss, without questioning if his mediocrity will put the nation at jeopardy, but if a guy scoring same as him, takes admission to a better college than him, through the quota system, all hell is supposed to break loose. Suddenly, this mythical merit becomes the key, although technically both of them will be engineers starting almost at the same level, right from the bottom of the corporate pecking order. Why ? Because, this OC guy couldn’t get admission to a better college. (In other states, this becomes even more acute, because the seats are almost twice or thrice as much WB)

Your example has already assumed that
1. the guy is a dalit.
2. He ranked beyong 19000

Now,
1. How many dalits exist below 19000 ranks?
2. If there exist dalits below 19000 rank, then why are you only presenting the 19000+ dalit? And why are you defining him a dalit instead of just calling him a student? Were the lower cast students really denied a right like admission to the college, or does your example "still" has another assumption to make that "all the socially backward casts below 19000 were denied admission"????

In case of a tie of marks between two students, ofcourse, there, the "past performance" might play some judgement or perhaps a GD?

Watch....
*video.aol.in/video-detail/bihar-village-churns-out-100-iit-toppers/157657552

Read....
*www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20080052137

Now try to find out as to how many of them were "denied" the right!

The issue is never merit. It has never been. This argument of merit is a ruse to cover a more sinister mindset, something that we take for granted – we, the upper class, deserve the best. We conveniently bring out the issue of merit, when we see a dalit taking admission in a better college, forgetting, a guy, probably worse than his merit, is coming into the same profession as the dalit is, albeit through a lesser college, and will be assimilated in the same society, which is supposed to get effected by both their mediocrity. But since some people are more equal than others, mediocrity of the dalit is supposed to effect the society more.

Lets look at some of the universities of US, the land of dreams. Many here, doesn’t even know, that universities like Harvard, MIT etc. have a system in place, which requires much less SAT scores from American Indians, Hispanics and Blacks, compared to the others. It is called Affirmative action. Now that you know, Harvard or MIT promote mediocrity, how many are willing to get admission there. My wild guess is ALL.

That remains your own "belief" and yet again you are not talking of "who is affecting the dalit", but simply saying "dalit is affected"!

Talking about Harvard, all I would say is that I would favour "equal competition" anyday instead of feeling high by going through some illogical and corrupt form of admission that I won't even call a competition.

You know why IITs and IIMs and corporates are against reservation? Its all about quality and by that it doesn't mean OBC/SC/St etc lack quality and it surely doesn't mean that these institutions are against the poor or the so called "socially backward class" that you point to.

The so called curse that you are talking of, is the exact social injustice that we are talking of.

And what exactly happens to a middle class or rich guy who gets beyond 19000 rank? A social injustice for him too? So, Who denied them the right? The IITs and IIMs treated everyone "equally" and "gave" them "equal chance".

"Denying" is certainly not the word I would use. It would be most appropriate to call it a "denial" if they were denied of taking the exam itself. Don't mind but I guess the number of contradictions and flaws in your posts have gone weigh too much now.

Once, just once in your life, think of the 90% of your fellow countrymen who don’t live in cities. If your argument of “threshold” is to be believed, there can be no criteria for any economic “relaxation” that you are so talking of. Now tell us, how do you propose to implement your economic “relaxation” without a “threshold”.

My post was clear enough. But neways, read the story of the IIt again
*www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20080052137

Like I said, the concept of "threshold" is itself flawed and misused. Financial relaxation should be given after verifying the income sources of the family be in cash or in assets. Desperate measures can be taken for the desperate ones, lighter measures for those who need a few facilties etc. And its not something that cannot be accomplished!!

Come on. Your reality is based on your city living alone. Mine is based on tiny tours to the interiors of rural India, where, unfortunately 90% of our population live.

Nope!

Missed the forest to hit the tree. You have no clue of what I was saying.

The remainder of the post is just uninformed tripe. You have shown complete lack of understanding of the issue at hand. You think Mayawati represents a quarter of our population, you think a corepati dalit or two, with ray-ban glasses, living within the sanctuary of a city, negate the plight of those in the rural areas, and therefore the whole reservation thing. I can guarantee, you have no idea of Mandal Commission report, or what census of 1991/2001 say.

Again you are "not removing the plight", but simply creating "more plight".


So,

A. You have a distorted idea of the varna system.
B. The reservation you favour creates "certified" categories which are far more dangerous than the human imagined ones which were a byproduct of misunderstandings.
C. You are "ignoring" the root cause of the problem which needs to be eradicated and ignoring the discriminator in ALL YOUR EXAMPLES.
D. The fundamentally flawed and self-contradicting reservation itself discriminates against "equal competition" and the spirit of merit, which generates a spirit of competition and a thirst among ALL THE STUDENTS to STUDY and do well.
E. CBSE course which consists of 70% questions repeated, is a part of "past performance" and not even anywhere near to the IITs paper which consists of "surprises" in terms of nature of questions and number of questions.
F. You have taken "biased" assumptions like, the 19000+ rank might be a dalit while totally ignoring the number of dalits within 19000 rank. Like I said, inappropriate assumptions lead to a false theory.
G. You are confusing non-selection (during admission round) with denial.
H. You think Mayawati and others are the only rich dalits which reflects as to how much you need to sample the colleges and gather your own "real" data instead of "ideal definitions".

 

[way2jatin]

Which mad person has vote Yes??

 

[rhitwick]

@Mediator, dude, reading ur posts it seems that U think castism doesn't exist, and actually is encouraging this castism by providing reservations.

No thats not the case. I just want you tell one thing, U believe that a perfect society exists where castism doesn't happen. No it isn't the case. Its there, very much there. It just won't vanish only because some people want ignore it. Just hiding ur head in sand won't save u from the lion.

And, every example Karni gave, is true. They were very much hyped in media and a lot of discussions followed. Do u think those incidents are some heat of the moment incident?? No, it just protrays the truth that such kinda things are practiced everyday at some villages.
How many of them do we come to know that we would protest or punish (in the case dat teacher, he was punished though, media kisi ko chodti hai kaya?)

Yes, I agree that the true meaning of rservation is now passe, people are just making benefit of its loopholes.
And, the change u r talking about is happening but the change is not pan India. Its limited to City and its suburbs only. After that it just vanishes.
Just go to any remote village and observe their lifestyle for 2-3 days. U'l come to know things for sure.
Those cast related rituals arte very much practised in villages. U go against any of them and peoplw would look at u in awe!!! Its like "sehar se aya hai to kaya, kuch bhi karega kaya, apne gao ki riwaj/pratha hai yeh sab". Yes, u'ld come to hear this.
Those guys just won't think how could a higher class person can drink water from a mochi etc.
Let me tell u some examples:-
>U know in orissa lower caste people are STILL not allowed to enter some temples. I can't recall the exact name but I read in a newspaper article that in Temple wall some holes are created for them for "darshan".
>U know in some villages diferent banks are used of same pond for diff. cast people
>U know there was (and in some villages still present) a rule that prohibits lower caste people to read books.

and many many nore....


One more info I want to give you that, ur cast is stuck to u since ur birth. Yes again I tell u that its from birth. The first time castism was introduced it was based on profession but from next generation of the beginner (i.e the son of very first cobbler) its from birth. If u born in a cobbler family u r a cobbler.
Newton's First law applies here. And here the external force is "education" which can divert the direction.

 

[mediator]

@rhitwick, You misunderstood me.

Casteism is very much alive and I believe I might be knowing more than you. But what I want to say is simply that in reality even the "modern definition of cast system" is not always true. I know how dalits are treated, but I think you don't know that many dalits are not "financially weak" and todays time is such that if a person is financially sound and doing well, then he is asked for and if a person is poor nobody asks him. Some even think they can slap the poor. What I want to say is that the finance factor "overrides" the "cast factor" in many cases, IMO, most of the cases!!

All the examples you put forward are nuthing new to me. Thats a reality! And what I am saying is that 'reservation' is not eradicating the "root cause of the WHOLE PROBLEM", but simply keeping alive the tradition and creating more categories like I said. You think dalits will be spared from bullies and discrimination just by reservation? Think again! Even after their implementation, do you really think police will lodge their complaints treat them as equals and corrupt pundits will see them any differently?

The problem lies in that very perception!! We need to change that perception and not create more problems and further loopholes for dirty politics.

And hence to change that perception we need to educate whats the "Real Varna System" is, that all are equal and those pundits who discriminate are actually imposters. If we inject the truth in the acedmic syllabus, then it is bound to do wonders. Media can play an active role and strict laws can help further. Today many brahmins are not a preachers, or gurus or scholar, but simply imposters who think just by calling themselves as brahmins they can be brahmins. They need to verify themselves to the authorities, show their deep knowledge of scriptures and happenings in the modern world. Its like a reputed council of teachers trying to induce a new teacher to the school. Its like a company employing a new person on the basis of his expertise and knowledge and confirming him after 2 years after his evaluation.

I hope I'm clear enough.

One more info I want to give you that, ur cast is stuck to u since ur birth. Yes again I tell u that its from birth. The first time castism was introduced it was based on profession but from next generation of the beginner (i.e the son of very first cobbler) its from birth. If u born in a cobbler family u r a cobbler.

Its like telling that when some misunderstanding happens then its eternal and everlasting and it has no cure. How absurd?? I believe you also need to read the link on "casteism" in my previous post.

 

[vamsi_krishna]

We should not say reservation system should not exist. It should be provided to Physically Challenged people, Mentally retarded, Economically backward classes and it should not be provided on the basis of the cast. Every one is voting in the poll that they don't want reservation system. But reservation system should exist. But it should not be in the way that is right now. There is a tremendous amount of changes that should be made which will make the education system more compititive and rechable for all the classes in the economy.

 

[rhitwick]

All the examples you put forward are nuthing new to me. Thats a reality! And what I am saying is that 'reservation' is not eradicating the "root cause of the WHOLE PROBLEM", but simply keeping alive the tradition and creating more categories like I said. You think dalits will be spared from bullies and discrimination just by reservation?

No, reservation was not introduced to save them from getting bullied. It was introduced to give them the reach to certain facilities which the higher cast people enjoy.

Think again! Even after their implementation, do you really think police will lodge their complaints treat them as equals and corrupt pundits will see them any differently?

Now, this is a whole different thing. There are laws which can take care of those crooked officers.

But, u r right, how about a reservation in laws too. First mark places as highly sensitive area for casteism (like they do for voting booths to prevent problems), then make it mandatory to show at least 5 FIRs from dalits.

And hence to change that perception we need to educate whats the "Real Varna System" is, that all are equal and those pundits who discriminate are actually imposters. If we inject the truth in the acedmic syllabus, then it is bound to do wonders. Media can play an active role and strict laws can help further. Today many brahmins are not a preachers, or gurus or scholar, but simply imposters who think just by calling themselves as brahmins they can be brahmins. They need to verify themselves to the authorities, show their deep knowledge of scriptures and happenings in the modern world. Its like a reputed council of teachers trying to induce a new teacher to the school. Its like a company employing a new person on the basis of his expertise and knowledge and confirming him after 2 years after his evaluation.

Hmmm, I c you have very high expectation from brahmins. May I know why is that so? Why can't u treat them as normal (common man) rather asking everyone of them to be scholar, gurus etc.
U c, I told you already, the label of "Higher Cast" is also thurst upon us. We can't escape that too. If I'm Brahmin, people start expecting something special from me. Why? Main kyoun karu? I don't like to recite mantras, I don't like to wear that thread, I don't want to be knowledgeable to provide "gyan" in gatherings. I just want to be a common man who enjoys his dumbness,ignorence etc.
Why do u call us imposter just because we don't know certain things?
Have I claimed to you that I'm this and that and later u found out I'm bullsh1t??
Why don u expect so many things from us just because we are imagined to be on top of society?
If I say, I don't want to be a brahmin, and go out and shout "From today I'm not a brahmin" or "I'm not a Rajput" etc, would u believe? (May be u would, because u r arguing here) But the society won't accept it. Either they will laugh or I'll be entitled as MAD.
Casteism is not a bliss for us too.

Its like telling that when some misunderstanding happens then its eternal and everlasting and it has no cure. How absurd??

Yes!!! Its absurd. Isn't it?
But its true. When in literature class, our literature teacher was teaching us the evolution of letters, words, writing language (we call sadhu bhasha), spoken language (Chalit bhasha or language used by everyone in daily life). He gave us numerous example where a spelling is mispelt once had become a standard or official one after some decades.
Even if you go by naming of certain villages, cities etc u'll find such examples.
Just one for u
"An interesting anecdote exists on the nomenclature of Calcutta. According to it, a British merchant was traveling through the village, when he came upon a peasant stacking hay into the barn. Not knowing where he was, the merchant asked the peasant about that place. The peasant, unfortunately did not understand English, and he guessed that the Sahib must be inquiring about the date the crop was harvested. In his own language, he replied "Kal Kata" which in Bengali language means "harvested yesterday" (Kal - Yesterday, Kata - cut, which here means harvested). The merchant was happy in the knowledge that he had learned about the name of the place, and left the place. Following English transcription, "Kal Kata" became "Calcutta"." (From wiki)

 

[mediator]

No, reservation was not introduced to save them from getting bullied. It was introduced to give them the reach to certain facilities which the higher cast people enjoy.

You are not reading are you? Suppose the English alphabet (A-Z) is a group of dalits. There is a general "perception" in the society that the dalits are the dirt of the society. A few dalits get reservation lets say in schools, colleges and corporates.

1. What assurance is there, that if they grow rich, they won't discmriniate against poor or 'percieve' them as dirt?
2. What assurance is there that the society will not continue to "percieve" them and other dalits as dirt?
3. In 'typically' doing so and saying it was the fault of "brahmins" aren't you accusing all the "brahmins" even when many of them might have been wise who new the truth and were brahmins in real definition??
4. In this 'theoretical pursuit of justice' aren't you discrminating against the meritorous students? i.e The result of Human stupidity (cast system) being countered with another(reservation)?
5. What assurance is there that police will not act like animals to them? I hope you have heard of cases when a dalit woman came to log complaint and policeman raped her.
6. In all of this, what about a poor non-OBC, non-SC/ST guy who gets a slap from the rich and cannot goto police for the fear of misconduct or simply "denied" police action i.e 'social backwardness inspite of being a non-lower cast'?????? We all know police is the tool of the rich and powerful today and acts only when media showcases the issue.

Next, if you think that by reservation they can be given the facilty that the higher cast people enjoy, then do you think that "sense of perception" will still be there? If NO, then doesn't it mean that the "finance factor" has now overriden the "cast factor"? How are you defining an improvement? His cast still remains the same, the people still know he is a dalit, but with style and money. If YES, then has the reservation really worked????? Further, is that dalit returning the luxuries and privileges that he got back to the society? I hope you know that human nature is such that one he gets the taste of corruption then it is very hard to make him uncorrupt.

Now, this is a whole different thing. There are laws which can take care of those crooked officers.

Your posts tell how oblivious you are to the 'finance factor'. Its like you have never drove any vehicle or bike experienced a "challan" and subsequent goose (police pocket filling). You know I have given a goose as low as Rs.20 inspite of lacking all the three in the car, i.e RC, insurance, pollution check, and driving on learner's licence many years back and the situation is still the same. So what laws are you talking of? I believe if most of the laws in our nation had been strictly and actively exercised, then the country would have been much disciplined. How are Bangladeshis getting in our country? Vote Banks?

Why have Delhities started wearing helmets now? Because the traffic rules have now become strict (I am talking of ruless, not goose). But even then the intensity of that strictness varies upon the mood of the police and many policeman "misusing" the laws. e.g I dunno the number of times a relative of mine was fined for not applying the seat belt. The thing was he never went via the area written in the fine and second the same fine was issued again and again, with just date changed and third he is busy man to even "think" of fighting the police!!

But, u r right, how about a reservation in laws too

I don't know why are you thinking so much that reservation should be here and there and perhaps in this field too disregarding the root cause of the problem and consequences. How about simply 'helping them financially'?? Are you reading the links I gave while replying to karnivore????

Hmmm, I c you have very high expectation from brahmins. May I know why is that so? Why can't u treat them as normal (common man) rather asking everyone of them to be scholar, gurus etc.
U c, I told you already, the label of "Higher Cast" is also thurst upon us. We can't escape that too. If I'm Brahmin, people start expecting something special from me. Why? Main kyoun karu? I don't like to recite mantras, I don't like to wear that thread, I don't want to be knowledgeable to provide "gyan" in gatherings. I just want to be a common man who enjoys his dumbness,ignorence etc.
Why do u call us imposter just because we don't know certain things?
Have I claimed to you that I'm this and that and later u found out I'm bullsh1t??
Why don u expect so many things from us just because we are imagined to be on top of society?
If I say, I don't want to be a brahmin, and go out and shout "From today I'm not a brahmin" or "I'm not a Rajput" etc, would u believe? (May be u would, because u r arguing here) But the society won't accept it. Either they will laugh or I'll be entitled as MAD.
Casteism is not a bliss for us too.

After all the discussion back to square one??

I don't have any expectation, but only understand the 'definition' of ancient varna system and modern casts system and the reality. The line in the bold tells as if you think that the society is partitioned into 4 categories (A,B,C,D) where A has assumed all the supremacy and you thinking that all I'm saying is that A should act as it should.

First, it again highlights the class by "birth" notion in your statements. Second, all I'm saying is that there are people from other categories like D who exhibit and fulfill the 'brahmin' definition OF THE ANCIENT VARNA SYSTEM and hence it is by 'karma'. After all this discussion you are actually accusing me of not treating everyone as normal? Who is implementing reservation and who is favouring it here? Will the reservation system let us forget? It is only glorifying "modern" brahmins, 'cast by birth notion' and dividing the society further. It is also creating an image that brahmins were wicked and discriminated which is again absurd. Just like all OBCs/SC/ST are not socially and economically backward, similarly all the brahmins never discriminated. The 'theoretical measures' are actually flawed right in front of your own eyes, where you are treating percentages of discrimators and victims AS A WHOLE to base your your judgement.

I want to treat everyone as "normal". But, IF people want to identify themselves based on cast, then don't you think they should be enlightened of what the ancient system really speaks of ????


I'm only repeating for you. So just for conversation's sake start treating and picturing brahmins as teachers and scholars in all your successive posts, where today there is a society where some say I'm a scholar because my cast is that of scholar i.e today there are scholars by 'birth' and not 'karma'. Imagine a person calling himself a scientist, a scholar, a teacher by birth.

So, I hope you finally understand.

Yes!!! Its absurd. Isn't it?
But its true. When in literature class, our literature teacher was teaching us the evolution of letters, words, writing language (we call sadhu bhasha), spoken language (Chalit bhasha or language used by everyone in daily life). He gave us numerous example where a spelling is mispelt once had become a standard or official one after some decades.
Even if you go by naming of certain villages, cities etc u'll find such examples.
Just one for u
"An interesting anecdote exists on the nomenclature of Calcutta. According to it, a British merchant was traveling through the village, when he came upon a peasant stacking hay into the barn. Not knowing where he was, the merchant asked the peasant about that place. The peasant, unfortunately did not understand English, and he guessed that the Sahib must be inquiring about the date the crop was harvested. In his own language, he replied "Kal Kata" which in Bengali language means "harvested yesterday" (Kal - Yesterday, Kata - cut, which here means harvested). The merchant was happy in the knowledge that he had learned about the name of the place, and left the place. Following English transcription, "Kal Kata" became "Calcutta"." (From wiki)

Sorry, but I didn't understand the point!

I think that you were stressing earlier that the 'cast by birth' is irreversible.

Imagine an Indian soldier (the kshatryia class) in war chatting with another, "hey what cast are you". Other says, "hey I'm a brahmin".

 

[rhitwick]

1. What assurance is there, that if they grow rich, they won't discmriniate against poor or 'percieve' them as dirt?

WTF??!! Why are so worried about what they would turn up in future. Its not our responsibility. Reservation was created to facilitate them not to keep track them of their doings.

3. In 'typically' doing so and saying it was the fault of "brahmins" aren't you accusing all the "brahmins" even when many of them might have been wise who new the truth and were brahmins in real definition??

I'm accusing none. I've no grudge against any particular community. I'm against reservation but in solution I want free education. I guess we both agreed on this topic earlier. I just don't want to abolish reservation without a back-up plan. At least, at the very least 1% of the needy people is getting favor due to reservation. If we "just" abolish reservation, the small amount of favor will also stop.

4. In this 'theoretical pursuit of justice' aren't you discrminating against the meritorous students? i.e The result of Human stupidity (cast system) being countered with another(reservation)?

I've already told that how merit is getting lost due to lack of finance. Money matters. Again, both of us agreed on this topic earlier.

5. What assurance is there that police will not act like animals to them? I hope you have heard of cases when a dalit woman came to log complaint and policeman raped her.
6. In all of this, what about a poor non-OBC, non-SC/ST guy who gets a slap from the rich and cannot goto police for the fear of misconduct or simply "denied" police action i.e 'social backwardness inspite of being a non-lower cast'?????? We all know police is the tool of the rich and powerful today and acts only when media showcases the issue.

Police and its immoral behavior can be diff. topic in fight club. Plz, lets not deviate from topic. Thats why I told you "It is a whole diff story"

Next, if you think that by reservation they can be given the facilty that the higher cast people enjoy, then do you think that "sense of perception" will still be there? If NO, then doesn't it mean that the "finance factor" has now overriden the "cast factor"?

Agreed.

How are you defining an improvement? His cast still remains the same, the people still know he is a dalit, but with style and money. If YES, then has the reservation really worked?????

Oh, when will you understand that RESERVATION is used to facilitate them, its not used to make people forget their cast.
I'm just tired now telling this same thing over the last few post. Please read with concentration. I guess you have some misconception for reservation, how and whys of it.

Further, is that dalit returning the luxuries and privileges that he got back to the society?

Its not our responsibility to check that. Unfaithful, backstabbing and irresponsible persons exist in this world since decades and irrespective of gender, cast, country. We can't control them.

Your posts tell how oblivious you are to the 'finance factor'. Its like you have never drove any vehicle or bike

How did u come to know??
I was just learning riding bike and got posted her.
But I've experienced "those" seating in backseat of bikes.

And, Law and order in India could be a different topic in "Fight Club", please stay in topic.

I don't know why are you thinking so much that reservation should be here and there and perhaps in this field too disregarding the root cause of the problem and consequences. How about simply 'helping them financially'??

Already replied above.

I don't have any expectation

Oh, yeah...let me quote ur words first.

Today many brahmins are not a preachers, or gurus or scholar, but simply imposters who think just by calling themselves as brahmins they can be brahmins. They need to verify themselves to the authorities, show their deep knowledge of scriptures and happenings in the modern world

and

I want to treat everyone as "normal". But, IF people want to identify themselves based on cast, then don't you think they should be enlightened of what the ancient system really speaks of ????

These are ur grudge against brahmins and very much clearly means that to be a true brahmin to ur eyes ALL THE BRAHMINS should do those. Else all of them are imposters.
But as u've already told in an earlier post. (2nd Page of this thread, post no. bhul gaya)

Yep, he is only expected, but doesn't always do.

U also belive that all of them can't do those. So what is ur problem? Yes, there are imposters in all cast, aren't? Why are u targetting only brahmins?

As I've already told,

If I say, I don't want to be a brahmin, and go out and shout "From today I'm not a brahmin" or "I'm not a Rajput" etc, would u believe? (May be u would, because u r arguing here) But the society won't accept it. Either they will laugh or I'll be entitled as MAD.
Casteism is not a bliss for us too

First, it again highlights the class by "birth" notion in your statements. Second, all I'm saying is that there are people from other categories like D who exhibit and fulfill the 'brahmin' definition OF THE ANCIENT VARNA SYSTEM and hence it is by 'karma'.

It was based on "karma" when al of it started but now its pure by birth.

I'm only repeating for you. So just for conversation's sake start treating and picturing brahmins as teachers and scholars in all your successive posts, where today there is a society where some say I'm a scholar because my cast is that of scholar i.e today there are scholars by 'birth' and not 'karma'. Imagine a person calling himself a scientist, a scholar, a teacher by birth.

FYI...none is researching on casteism so that new casts would come up. But, if you go back to the time of Varnashram u would find that all (at least 99%) doctors, scientists, scholars were brahmin or very little Kshatriya and in exceptional (or accidental) cases vaishya or shudras. So it never required to create dif. cast for these trades.

Sorry, but I didn't understand the point!

I was just trying to make you understand that, if a wrong is practised for enough time it becomes truer than the truth.

I think that you were stressing earlier that the 'cast by birth' is irreversible.

It is.

Imagine an Indian soldier (the kshatryia class) in war chatting with another, "hey what cast are you". Other says, "hey I'm a brahmin".

I don't need to imagine. I know it happens. If you have friends in army ask them.

 

[mediator]

WTF??!! Why are so worried about what they would turn up in future. Its not our responsibility. Reservation was created to facilitate them not to keep track them of their doings.

Just what I expected. You simply just don't want to eradicate the root cause of the problem but create more problems.

I'm accusing none. I've no grudge against any particular community. I'm against reservation but in solution I want free education. I guess we both agreed on this topic earlier. I just don't want to abolish reservation without a back-up plan. At least, at the very least 1% of the needy people is getting favor due to reservation. If we "just" abolish reservation, the small amount of favor will also stop.

Agreed!

Police and its immoral behavior can be diff. topic in fight club. Plz, lets not deviate from topic. Thats why I told you "It is a whole diff story"

Why? Isn't police a part of the society? Even in our households many beat the servants just because of a careless, unintentional mistake. What about the hospitals where the poor is "denied"? Or should we ignore that also calling it "deviation"?? You should not try to ignore the examples. I can keep adding where the poor has been "denied" regardless of his/her cast which simply shows how much real is the case where the economic backwardness leads to social backwardness and everything start stabilising when a person becomes financially sound.

Oh, when will you understand that RESERVATION is used to facilitate them, its not used to make people forget their cast.
I'm just tired now telling this same thing over the last few post. Please read with concentration. I guess you have some misconception for reservation, how and whys of it.

I understand it crystal clear. But it seems you see it "only" as a facilitation, which is sad!!!

1. I am asking for the holistic development from childhood which cannot be separated from "equal competition", whereas reservation is a joke on the system of overall development.
2. I'm asking to be fair to everyone in terms of competition whereas reservation is a slap on meritocracy.
3. Other ills I already stated.

The bold tells that you are neither concerned about the merit nor about the complete development of the reservation tagged ones. So I guess even the "usage" of the term "facilitation" is flawed for you are not facilitating them with complete development.

Its not our responsibility to check that. Unfaithful, backstabbing and irresponsible persons exist in this world since decades and irrespective of gender, cast, country. We can't control them.

How true. So I guess we should make a law which says "all those who get reservation will return the luxuries they got in terms of cash after the stabilization of their finances".

How did u come to know??
I was just learning riding bike and got posted her.
But I've experienced "those" seating in backseat of bikes.

And, Law and order in India could be a different topic in "Fight Club", please stay in topic.

coz I'm the ONE! 8)

Ofcourse law n order could be diff. topic. I stated that in response to ur "reservation in law" point.

These are ur grudge against brahmins and very much clearly means that to be a true brahmin to ur eyes ALL THE BRAHMINS should do those. Else all of them are imposters.
But as u've already told in an earlier post. (2nd Page of this thread, post no. bhul gaya)

Thats not called "expectation" from brahmins, but a verification and clarification of who the true brahmin is and who the imposter is. I'm not "expecting" anyone to become a teacher or a scholar, but simply to know as to who all are the "sagely teachers". It could be anyone "regardless" of their surnames. It could also be that some dalit, who was teaching in a small school, is actually a brahmin in the real definition.

Also, Its quite common for people who excel in CBSE board exams ( @mhg, ignore it ) to perform bad later in graduation where they flunk and repeat semester exams. Whereas, there are others who were average, some who were considered as insolent brats in school perform excellent in graduation and post graduation.

In our world "past performances" are called "experiences". If u've experience of 2yrs in a particular field u r expected to know at least 80% of that thing. (actually they want 150% )

In case of education, one who has topped in CBSE would be expected to do very good in IIT entrance exam.

Yep, he is only expected, but doesn't always do. Strange reality hun? Have you ever considered the "nature" of CBSE exams where 70% of the paper is repeated w.r.t to IITs exam where the paper is different everytime in terms of questions and number of questions and authorities giving 'surprises'
, to think upon your logic and reality?????

Yep, he is only expected, but doesn't always do.

U also belive that all of them can't do those. So what is ur problem? Yes, there are imposters in all cast, aren't? Why are u targetting only brahmins?

"All of them", "brahmins"?? WTH?? Your posts are completely out of context, unconnected and you accuse me all over of not reading. Why are doing this to me? If you hate me then just say so!

I even wished you Happy Birthday.

If I say, I don't want to be a brahmin, and go out and shout "From today I'm not a brahmin" or "I'm not a Rajput" etc, would u believe? (May be u would, because u r arguing here) But the society won't accept it.

Wasn't it you who told me to talk of places other than Delhi? Delhi has accepted it!!

Either they will laugh or I'll be entitled as MAD.
Casteism is not a bliss for us too

I wonder how many times I have discussed this topic with my friends in real life and the last time I discussed, the person "still agreed" to me instead of laughing!!!!!!!!

One time during my trip to Ilahbad via train, I had a conversation with an old man in my compartment. He was talkative and asked me my name and then surname. So I decided to return the favour. I asked his surname and he said "Sharma". He said he is a brahmin. And hence the FIGHT CLUB was ON. I asked, what "sharma has to do with being a brahmin"?? He said straight away, "I know where you are going and its how the society is and politicians will not let it die".

SO @rhitwick, I hope you understand the moral of the story.

And so, remember nobody laughs on logic!! I hoped that was clear to you from the "science Vs God" thread where many of the ignorant atheists, who themselves didn't know the abcd of science well, made it a habit to laugh on the theists. Why? Simply because theism acc. to them was illogical. And here you are changing your tone. Why? Because you never thought of the subject deeply????

It was based on "karma" when al of it started but now its pure by birth.

Yep, and we need to eradicate that, or did you forget that?

FYI...none is researching on casteism so that new casts would come up. But, if you go back to the time of Varnashram u would find that all (at least 99%) doctors, scientists, scholars were brahmin or very little Kshatriya and in exceptional (or accidental) cases vaishya or shudras. So it never required to create dif. cast for these trades.

Now why the heck would any doctor,scientist,scholar, guru, spirital guru etc etc be identified as kshatriya, vaishya or shudra, ofcourse at that time of varnashram????

Back to start. Do you really understand "who" a kshatriya, vaishya, shudra was and "what their actions were"???

I was just trying to make you understand that, if a wrong is practised for enough time it becomes truer than the truth.

Human stupidity crosses the threshold when such kind of notion is presented as truth!!!

I think you don't understand what you just stated or you simply need to stop. If the situation in the Indian metros have changed, then so can whole of India.

You know nobody cares who or what cast the person is, in the place I live in. Sikhs, Hindus, dalits, brahmins etc all live peacefully and equally. Recently a brahmin from South India came to our area and acted most typically, spoke gods name when a sweeper accidently touched her while sweeping and treated her as untouchable. The story spread to the whole society and guess who was looked down upon. Do answer this one!!

Imagine an Indian soldier (the kshatryia class) in war chatting with another, "hey what cast are you". Other says, "hey I'm a brahmin".

I don't need to imagine. I know it happens. If you have friends in army ask them.

I was stating the irony and humour in such a sentence. Why so serious?

 

[karnivore]

It is difficult to quote everyone and reply. So let me summarize my thoughts on reservation.

Purpose of reservation ?

The primary aim of the current reservation is not to make a doctor, or an engineer, or an IAS out of every single dalit. The goal is to first, give them access to education facilities, at primary level, which would have been inaccessible due to the reason of caste, so that the socially ostracized kids can get into the current system of education. This inaccessibility is not because of poverty, but due to the caste system. Extending this reservation to, beyond the primary level, that is, graduation/post-graduation/post-post-graduation level, is to, additionally ensure, that the ones, particularly the first generation schooled, do not get lost in an uneven competition with the upper class. It is to ensure, that they can be educated enough to be assimilated within the so called civil society. These educated “backward” class can then be ploughed back to the society, at appropriate levels e.g. as school teachers, college professors, govt. officials and even as doctors or engineers. The third and final phase of reservation, is the reservation in govt. jobs. This again, is the process of assimilation within the society, of, by now, fairly educated “backward” class.

Therefore, the aim of reservation is to bring this backward class within the folds of our society from the fringe, through a process, of first ensuring accessibility to education facilities at all levels, and then protecting from uneven competition. It is caste alleviation program, not caste eradication program, although one can hope, that multi-ethnicity within the campus will go a long way in that process as well. It is not a poverty eradication program either.

Economic reservation better ?

Economic deprivation effects all – Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaisya, Sudra, Muslim, Christian, boy, girl, handicapped, absolutely all. Economic reservation, will definitely result in economic upliftment, but will it solve the problem that is unique to the system of caste – social ostracism ? How can economic reservation guarantee that the “backward” class will not be discriminated against, on the basis of caste ? It can’t. What use is of the economic reservation, if access to school can’t be ensured in the first place. These people are not discriminated against, because they are poor, but because of the caste that they belong to. Economic backwardness results in discrimination, no doubt, and can be remedied through economic assistances or sops. But it can’t solve a problem, that is not related to economics.

Therefore, the problem that is unique to casteism, needs a solution that specifically addresses this caste based problem. This is where, the caste-based reservation kicks in. Expecting economic reservations to solve this unique problem, is like loosing your coin in the dark corner of an alley and then looking for it under the lamppost, just because there is light.

Before moving on, let me remind you that economic assistance exists, both at primary and higher level of education system. All schools, under Sarva Shiksha Abhiyan (Education for all program) scheme are free with a mid day meal system in place. At higher level, the govt. institutes, like IITs or AIMS, for example, charge a very nominal portion of its cost as fees. The remaining is subsidized. Heavily, I must add. On top of that, there is a system of student loan which is available, without any security with a very relaxed payment schedule.

What about the economically deprived upper class ?

Yes, they are a matter of concern. But they are effected by economic deprivation in the same way, as everyone in the society. They do not face the discrimination, that the backward class faces and since the economic alleviation of the poor is outside the scope of the current system of reservation, they have to be left out. Their plight can be solved through economic assistance that is already in place (see above) or may be through other better schemes.

Promotes, incompetence, mediocrity and is antithetical to merit ?

Lets forget, caste based reservation for the moment. An estimate says, that every year, India produces more than 300,000 engineers. All the govt. sponsored seats fall, miserably short of the demand. Private colleges fill that place. These, private colleges charge capitation fees, directly or indirectly. (Any non-refundable part of advance is capitation fee.) On top of that, the infrastructure, i.e. lab facilities, faculty, campus etc, most of them provide are horrendous. So basically, a person with moolah, can get admitted to one of these colleges while a person with an empty pocket won’t. Isn’t it reservation in disguise, for the ones who can afford to buy education ? Merit, here explicitly takes a back seat, while money does all the bidding. The quality of graduates, that these institutes produce is also a question. Then there is a specific reservation for NRIs. It is nothing but seat reserved for the highest bidder.

This leads to an even bigger question of how to measure merit. That, in itself is a can of worms. But may be later.

But does reservation really promotes incompetence. Tamil Nadu can be a good case for studying. Currently TN has 69% reservation for the backward class. The reservation existed in TN, in such substantial quantity, long before Mandal Commission even made any recommendation. For the first time, in TN or anywhere in India, the backward class (BC), actually outsmarted the forward class (FC), in 2005. Of the total of 430 open seats, for Medical Entrance, 321 seats were bagged by the BCs, 57 by MBCs, 14 by SCs and only 38 by Forward Community. Since then, the BCs are getting a significant piece of the cake without resorting to reservation. TN tears to shreds the argument of breading mediocrity. TN experience also proves that, if reservation reaches to the actual needy, they can change the situation in no more than 2 or 3 generations only.

Only a handful of BCs get the benefit. The rest is usurped by the people of the same class, but with money and power ?

That, people with money or power take advantage of this system, is true. There indeed are loopholes which allow a whole lot of people to take advantage of this system. This needs a thorough shake up of the system,(see below) but not discarding it altogether, just because some people are taking advantage of it. That, the backward class is slowly getting represented in almost all segment of society, is also true. That, in the very urban to semi-urban areas, the casteism has become a much watered down version of what is still practiced in rural India, is, again, true. We can’t ignore the benefits of a system because of some handful of unscrupulous men.

Blame the incorrect interpretation of the “varna” system ?

May be. May be not. What is the correct interpretation of the “verna” system, is open for never ending debates. There are enough evidences in the vedas, Upanishads, smiritis etc. that support the idea of “verna” from birth. Even Gita contradicts itself on this “verna” system. In any case, it is, at the moment irrelevant, what the “correct” interpretation is. What is relevant, is how it is being perceived by the mass.

Shall “injecting” the “correct” interpretation, if at all there is any such interpretation, of “verna” system into curriculum, eventually remedy the system ? There is data, to prove, that education does little to change one’s perception of religion. People, subject to rigors of scientific studies find it difficult to let go of their personal prejudices. Not exactly, too encouraging. Besides, what shall one do to the system of injustice, that is currently in place, while we wait, for the “correct” interpretation of “verna” to take its effect.

Is the current system adequate ?

No. Far from it. The mechanism for reservation, at the primary level is fairly OK. But problem arises at the higher level. I personally found 2 of the suggestions, made by many sociologists, pretty interesting.

#1. Let the reservation skip a generation. Say Mr X takes the benefit of the quota system. In that case his kids won’t be eligible for quota. But his grandson would be. Now, if his grandson doesn’t take the benefit of quota, then it will pass to his great-grandson and so on. But, if he does take the benefit, then his great-grandson would become ineligible. (Something like Chinese population restriction) This will plug the loophole, where successive generations take the aide of reservation, even when there is no need for that. This will also create a necessity for one generation to try his best, not to waste his privilege.

There can be debate on, if one in two generations shall be skipped or one in three generations or some other combination.

#2. Let the reservation be based on a combination of factors. Give caste the highest weightage. But give, past performance, family income, area of residence, prominent weightage. (Something like Canadian immigration system of points) For example, just for explanation’s sake, give 35 points to caste, 25 points to past performance and 20 points each to family income and area of residence.

Again, there can be a debate on the factors that should be taken into consideration, or the weights that each such factor shall carry.

Conclusion:

Reservation based on caste is needed, and will continue to be needed till a substantial portion of the BCs get represented in the society. What constitutes substantial, can be debated at length – on the basis of percentage of BCs in total population, or below poverty level, or living in rural areas or some other combination. I am open to the idea of scrapping the current mechanism. But whatever mechanism takes its place, it must give caste its due prominence.

 

[The Conqueror]

Let the reservation be based on a combination of factors. Give caste the highest weightage. But give, past performance, family income, area of residence, prominent weightage. (Something like Canadian immigration system of points) For example, just for explanation’s sake, give 35 points to caste, 25 points to past performance and 20 points each to family income and area of residence.

Again, there can be a debate on the factors that should be taken into consideration, or the weights that each such factor shall carry.

See,this reservation itself encourages caste-ism..You say give the lower caste the highest weightage..I dont agree..

Consider this example :
There are 2 students one is upper class and one is frm SC/ST whatever..Both of them have taken education till 12th. The Upperclass one has got 92% while the lower cast student has got a mere 59%.Both of them want to take the same academic field. Now considering the reservation pattern and the seats available the so-called SC/ST gets admission and the upper class student does NOT.So whats the use of the hard work?
The past is past , This is NOT Equality.

Now you will say this example is biased but then WHY WHY WHY make reservation based on caste in first place.Make Reservation on the basis of Merit ONLY . You say that SC/ST does not get admission and other facilities,but mind you,the SC/ST/OBC that I have seen ENJOYS more facilities and privileges and 99% of them DO NOT Excel in their career thereby hampering the national resources and the *seat* which could have been replaced by a Meritious student.Bring in equality ,forget the caste,provide education till 12th and then no more reservation on the basis of caste but ON THE BASIS OF MERIT.

 

[mediator]

@karnivore :

My last post for you, has answered almost the whole of this post of yours. So instead of wasting your time in repeating the stuff, you could have answered that one. And by posting the "varna system" in the same ignorant view, you have again shown that you are not interested in the real meaning and understanding the reality of it which has been again given in my previous post for you in the form of a sourced read. Would I be repeating varna system for you in the future for an umpteenth time?

How can the reservation promoters be interested in Justice, if they just like to opine and not read the truth?

We can’t ignore the benefits of a system because of some handful of unscrupulous men.

And now, Indian politics is reduced to a "handful of unscurpulous men" just to support your stand?

I personally found 2 of the suggestions, made by many sociologists, pretty interesting.

#1. Let the reservation skip a generation. Say Mr X takes the benefit of the quota system. In that case his kids won’t be eligible for quota. But his grandson would be. Now, if his grandson doesn’t take the benefit of quota, then it will pass to his great-grandson and so on. But, if he does take the benefit, then his great-grandson would become ineligible. (Something like Chinese population restriction) This will plug the loophole, where successive generations take the aide of reservation, even when there is no need for that. This will also create a necessity for one generation to try his best, not to waste his privilege.

"Hey son, I did all the hard work in my time. You just enjoy the quota!!" ??

I believe olympics should also start reservation/quota practices for poor nations and those nations who are "denied" entry to Security Council!

#2. Let the reservation be based on a combination of factors. Give caste the highest weightage. But give, past performance, family income, area of residence, prominent weightage. (Something like Canadian immigration system of points) For example, just for explanation’s sake, give 35 points to caste, 25 points to past performance and 20 points each to family income and area of residence.

Family income is flawed, past performance is flawed (cheating, goosing, 70% board questions repeated, forged certificates, usage of "contacts"?). You know it is not necessary that something that works for one be working for another.


And once again, you have neglected the "root cause" of the problem.

Conclusion:
Reservation based on caste is needed, and will continue to be needed till a substantial portion of the BCs get represented in the society. What constitutes substantial, can be debated at length – on the basis of percentage of BCs in total population, or below poverty level, or living in rural areas or some other combination. I am open to the idea of scrapping the current mechanism. But whatever mechanism takes its place, it must give caste its due prominence.

Please reply to the last post of mine for you. Reservation remains an extremely flawed and self contradicting, discriminating and injustice magnifying tool.

 

[karnivore]

See,this reservation itself encourages caste-ism..You say give the lower caste the highest weightage..I dont agree..

Consider this example :
There are 2 students one is upper class and one is frm SC/ST whatever..Both of them have taken education till 12th. The Upperclass one has got 92% while the lower cast student has got a mere 59%.Both of them want to take the same academic field. Now considering the reservation pattern and the seats available the so-called SC/ST gets admission and the upper class student does NOT.So whats the use of the hard work?

You have quoted one of my favorite solutions to the problem. Unfortunately you have highlighted a portion, that is only a part of the entire solution. The solution seeks to give maximum weightage to cast, not the ONLY weightage. It is supposed to have a combination of factors, and I guess I have made it clear, that past performance should be given a consideration. In the above example, it might so happen, that these combination of factors may actually allow the so-called hard workers (for some reason there is a belief that hard work always translates into marks) to get a better placement.

The past is past…

…which is killing the present and threatening the future.

… This is NOT Equality.

Nope, no one claims that. It is a road to equality.

WHY WHY WHY make reservation based on caste in first place.

Read my posts.

 

[karnivore]

@karnivore :

My last post for you, has answered almost the whole of this post of yours. So instead of wasting your time in repeating the stuff, you could have answered that one.

I saw your post only when I was posting. Even then, you haven't said anything ground breakingly refreshing. Same old drivels.

And by posting the "varna system" in the same ignorant view, you have again shown that you are not interested in the real meaning and understanding the reality of it which has been again given in my previous post for you in the form of a sourced read. Would I be repeating varna system for you in the future for an umpteenth time?

If that link you provided, is anything to go by, you are looking at the wrong place. What is interesting is how you are avoiding to answer the more fundamental question regarding your so called understanding of the varna system.

What shall one do to the system of injustice, that is currently in place, while we wait, for the “correct” interpretation of “verna” to take its effect.

And yes, you give me all the links you want, and that still wouldn't change my mind.

How can the reservation promoters be interested in Justice, if they just like to opine and not read the truth?

Who decides what is the truth ? What is truth to you, is a bone of contention to me.

And now, Indian politics is reduced to a "handful of unscurpulous men" just to support your stand?

I was not referring to the politicians at all. But you live upto expectations - that of not understanding what is being said.

"Hey son, I did all the hard work in my time. You just enjoy the quota!!" ??

That solution is just opposite of that.

I believe olympics should also start reservation/quota practices for poor nations and those nations who are "denied" entry to Security Council!

Contrary to what you think, you are not too good with metaphors, and certainly not with sarcasm.

Family income is flawed, past performance is flawed (cheating, goosing, 70% board questions repeated, forged certificates, usage of "contacts"?). You know it is not necessary that something that works for one be working for another.

If family income is flawed, then a whole bunch of govt. scheme is a waste of money. If past performance is flawed, then you are actually questioning the very essence of "meritocracy" that you were championing till now. The so called merit is measured by means of past performance only.

And once again, you have neglected the "root cause" of the problem.

What shall we do, while we start purging the so called root causes. Suck our thumbs, I guess.

Please reply to the last post of mine for you. Reservation remains an extremely flawed and self contradicting, discriminating and injustice magnifying tool.

Just choosing and selecting to answer what you think you can answer. Any opinion on TN phenomena ?

 

[Faun]

Conclusion:

Reservation based on caste is needed, and will continue to be needed till a substantial portion of the BCs get represented in the society. What constitutes substantial, can be debated at length – on the basis of percentage of BCs in total population, or below poverty level, or living in rural areas or some other combination. I am open to the idea of scrapping the current mechanism. But whatever mechanism takes its place, it must give caste its due prominence.

It leads to more discrimination than the solution of the problem. Reservation based on cast is not the solution, its like saying that revolution will solve the problem.

 

[mediator]

I saw your post only when I was posting. Even then, you haven't said anything ground breakingly refreshing. Same old drivels.

Thats not like you. We "prove" by "reasoning" of what we don't find ground breaking and not by simply stating a line as such or "opining", remember??

If that link you provided, is anything to go by, you are looking at the wrong place. What is interesting is how you are avoiding to answer the more fundamental question regarding your so called understanding of the varna system.

What shall one do to the system of injustice, that is currently in place, while we wait, for the “correct” interpretation of “verna” to take its effect.

And yes, you give me all the links you want, and that still wouldn't change my mind.

I have given the steps clear enough. It again shows that you are not interested in "reasoning" now, but only telling of what your "beliefs" are. I'm quoting you and you have decided not to quote the post of mine that went with the flow.

Who decides what is the truth ? What is truth to you, is a bone of contention to me.

The truth is the scriptures on which all this "corrupt human imagination" is based on. What is said in scriptures, is not followed and what is followed is not written. If you are out of time, then I'm not forcing you to "promote" opinions and repetitions. And thats how one loses interest in a discussion when one doesn't reads and continues opining all along.

So, its only your confusion and reluctance to read, that is becoming that "bone of contention" for you.

If family income is flawed, then a whole bunch of govt. scheme is a waste of money. If past performance is flawed, then you are actually questioning the very essence of "meritocracy" that you were championing till now. The so called merit is measured by means of past performance only.

I am quoting the solution of the problem and you are only seeing the problem and not the solution. From the begining I've been championing "the eradication of root cause" of "what" makes it a flaw. It doesn't mean meritocracy is flawed. And so you are wrong again!! And yet again you are showing how we should encounter one human stupidity with another. Instead of eradicating the influencing factors that hamper merit i.e reservation, "money power", "forged certificates" etc, you are taking it for granted that merit is flawed and hence we should put forward reservation which is self contradictory and flawed "in concept". Instead of arguing "how to remove the influence of corrupt means on merit", you are picturing as if merit is "corrupt" and hence install something more corrupting and logically flawed that takes human stupidity to a level beyond. You certainly need to categorize the class of "actions and reactions", "a system and external factors affecting that system" for a clearer understanding.

Its like I'm telling a person is diseased and instead of discussing what we should do to "remove" that disease, you are only arguing that the person is diseased and so we should help him in life.

Just choosing and selecting to answer what you think you can answer. Any opinion on TN phenomena ?

The opinion is LOUD AND CLEAR in that post of mine. Why are you ignoring to quote that post anyways?

 

[gopi_vbboy]

It is difficult to quote everyone and reply. So let me summarize my thoughts on reservation.

Purpose of reservation ?

The primary aim of the current reservation is not to make a doctor, or an engineer, or an IAS out of every single dalit. The goal is to first, give them access to education facilities, at primary level, which would have been inaccessible due to the reason of caste, so that the socially ostracized kids can get into the current system of education. This inaccessibility is not because of poverty, but due to the caste system. Extending this reservation to, beyond the primary level, that is, graduation/post-graduation/post-post-graduation level, is to, additionally ensure, that the ones, particularly the first generation schooled, do not get lost in an uneven competition with the upper class. It is to ensure, that they can be educated enough to be assimilated within the so called civil society. These educated “backward” class can then be ploughed back to the society, at appropriate levels e.g. as school teachers, college professors, govt. officials and even as doctors or engineers. The third and final phase of reservation, is the reservation in govt. jobs. This again, is the process of assimilation within the society, of, by now, fairly educated “backward” class.

Therefore, the aim of reservation is to bring this backward class within the folds of our society from the fringe, through a process, of first ensuring accessibility to education facilities at all levels, and then protecting from uneven competition. It is caste alleviation program, not caste eradication program, although one can hope, that multi-ethnicity within the campus will go a long way in that process as well. It is not a poverty eradication program either.

Economic reservation better ?

Economic deprivation effects all – Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaisya, Sudra, Muslim, Christian, boy, girl, handicapped, absolutely all. Economic reservation, will definitely result in economic upliftment, but will it solve the problem that is unique to the system of caste – social ostracism ? How can economic reservation guarantee that the “backward” class will not be discriminated against, on the basis of caste ? It can’t. What use is of the economic reservation, if access to school can’t be ensured in the first place. These people are not discriminated against, because they are poor, but because of the caste that they belong to. Economic backwardness results in discrimination, no doubt, and can be remedied through economic assistances or sops. But it can’t solve a problem, that is not related to economics.

Therefore, the problem that is unique to casteism, needs a solution that specifically addresses this caste based problem. This is where, the caste-based reservation kicks in. Expecting economic reservations to solve this unique problem, is like loosing your coin in the dark corner of an alley and then looking for it under the lamppost, just because there is light.

Before moving on, let me remind you that economic assistance exists, both at primary and higher level of education system. All schools, under Sarva Shiksha Abhiyan (Education for all program) scheme are free with a mid day meal system in place. At higher level, the govt. institutes, like IITs or AIMS, for example, charge a very nominal portion of its cost as fees. The remaining is subsidized. Heavily, I must add. On top of that, there is a system of student loan which is available, without any security with a very relaxed payment schedule.

What about the economically deprived upper class ?

Yes, they are a matter of concern. But they are effected by economic deprivation in the same way, as everyone in the society. They do not face the discrimination, that the backward class faces and since the economic alleviation of the poor is outside the scope of the current system of reservation, they have to be left out. Their plight can be solved through economic assistance that is already in place (see above) or may be through other better schemes.

Promotes, incompetence, mediocrity and is antithetical to merit ?

Lets forget, caste based reservation for the moment. An estimate says, that every year, India produces more than 300,000 engineers. All the govt. sponsored seats fall, miserably short of the demand. Private colleges fill that place. These, private colleges charge capitation fees, directly or indirectly. (Any non-refundable part of advance is capitation fee.) On top of that, the infrastructure, i.e. lab facilities, faculty, campus etc, most of them provide are horrendous. So basically, a person with moolah, can get admitted to one of these colleges while a person with an empty pocket won’t. Isn’t it reservation in disguise, for the ones who can afford to buy education ? Merit, here explicitly takes a back seat, while money does all the bidding. The quality of graduates, that these institutes produce is also a question. Then there is a specific reservation for NRIs. It is nothing but seat reserved for the highest bidder.

This leads to an even bigger question of how to measure merit. That, in itself is a can of worms. But may be later.

But does reservation really promotes incompetence. Tamil Nadu can be a good case for studying. Currently TN has 69% reservation for the backward class. The reservation existed in TN, in such substantial quantity, long before Mandal Commission even made any recommendation. For the first time, in TN or anywhere in India, the backward class (BC), actually outsmarted the forward class (FC), in 2005. Of the total of 430 open seats, for Medical Entrance, 321 seats were bagged by the BCs, 57 by MBCs, 14 by SCs and only 38 by Forward Community. Since then, the BCs are getting a significant piece of the cake without resorting to reservation. TN tears to shreds the argument of breading mediocrity. TN experience also proves that, if reservation reaches to the actual needy, they can change the situation in no more than 2 or 3 generations only.

Only a handful of BCs get the benefit. The rest is usurped by the people of the same class, but with money and power ?

That, people with money or power take advantage of this system, is true. There indeed are loopholes which allow a whole lot of people to take advantage of this system. This needs a thorough shake up of the system,(see below) but not discarding it altogether, just because some people are taking advantage of it. That, the backward class is slowly getting represented in almost all segment of society, is also true. That, in the very urban to semi-urban areas, the casteism has become a much watered down version of what is still practiced in rural India, is, again, true. We can’t ignore the benefits of a system because of some handful of unscrupulous men.

Blame the incorrect interpretation of the “varna” system ?

May be. May be not. What is the correct interpretation of the “verna” system, is open for never ending debates. There are enough evidences in the vedas, Upanishads, smiritis etc. that support the idea of “verna” from birth. Even Gita contradicts itself on this “verna” system. In any case, it is, at the moment irrelevant, what the “correct” interpretation is. What is relevant, is how it is being perceived by the mass.

Shall “injecting” the “correct” interpretation, if at all there is any such interpretation, of “verna” system into curriculum, eventually remedy the system ? There is data, to prove, that education does little to change one’s perception of religion. People, subject to rigors of scientific studies find it difficult to let go of their personal prejudices. Not exactly, too encouraging. Besides, what shall one do to the system of injustice, that is currently in place, while we wait, for the “correct” interpretation of “verna” to take its effect.

Is the current system adequate ?

No. Far from it. The mechanism for reservation, at the primary level is fairly OK. But problem arises at the higher level. I personally found 2 of the suggestions, made by many sociologists, pretty interesting.

#1. Let the reservation skip a generation. Say Mr X takes the benefit of the quota system. In that case his kids won’t be eligible for quota. But his grandson would be. Now, if his grandson doesn’t take the benefit of quota, then it will pass to his great-grandson and so on. But, if he does take the benefit, then his great-grandson would become ineligible. (Something like Chinese population restriction) This will plug the loophole, where successive generations take the aide of reservation, even when there is no need for that. This will also create a necessity for one generation to try his best, not to waste his privilege.

There can be debate on, if one in two generations shall be skipped or one in three generations or some other combination.

#2. Let the reservation be based on a combination of factors. Give caste the highest weightage. But give, past performance, family income, area of residence, prominent weightage. (Something like Canadian immigration system of points) For example, just for explanation’s sake, give 35 points to caste, 25 points to past performance and 20 points each to family income and area of residence.

Again, there can be a debate on the factors that should be taken into consideration, or the weights that each such factor shall carry.

Conclusion:

Reservation based on caste is needed, and will continue to be needed till a substantial portion of the BCs get represented in the society. What constitutes substantial, can be debated at length – on the basis of percentage of BCs in total population, or below poverty level, or living in rural areas or some other combination. I am open to the idea of scrapping the current mechanism. But whatever mechanism takes its place, it must give caste its due prominence.

way of saying so called socially oppressed hav right to take so called revenge...
but i again say u r still thinking narrow mindedly...half of the pro-reservation activists are hypocrites....dont understand wat they saying emosionally...jus say wat they need without thinking of others...its not the way to go....all i say is this will result in discrimination for sure...untill reserv is based on economic status not caste eliminating creamy layer

 

[MetalheadGautham]

It is difficult to quote everyone and reply. So let me summarize my thoughts on reservation.

Purpose of reservation ?

The primary aim of the current reservation is not to make a doctor, or an engineer, or an IAS out of every single dalit. The goal is to first, give them access to education facilities, at primary level, which would have been inaccessible due to the reason of caste, so that the socially ostracized kids can get into the current system of education. This inaccessibility is not because of poverty, but due to the caste system. Extending this reservation to, beyond the primary level, that is, graduation/post-graduation/post-post-graduation level, is to, additionally ensure, that the ones, particularly the first generation schooled, do not get lost in an uneven competition with the upper class. It is to ensure, that they can be educated enough to be assimilated within the so called civil society. These educated “backward” class can then be ploughed back to the society, at appropriate levels e.g. as school teachers, college professors, govt. officials and even as doctors or engineers. The third and final phase of reservation, is the reservation in govt. jobs. This again, is the process of assimilation within the society, of, by now, fairly educated “backward” class.

Therefore, the aim of reservation is to bring this backward class within the folds of our society from the fringe, through a process, of first ensuring accessibility to education facilities at all levels, and then protecting from uneven competition. It is caste alleviation program, not caste eradication program, although one can hope, that multi-ethnicity within the campus will go a long way in that process as well. It is not a poverty eradication program either.

1. If the question of discrimination "socially" does not even arise in developed India, why should developed Indians bear the brunt of reservation and give in to undeserving fools ?

2. What makes you think that social representation in public sector obtained without merit and on basis of one's ancestor's identity gives social respect ?

3.What makes you think that somebody should be pampered with facilities since his ancestors were denied it ?

4. Why do you assume that almost all "reserved" classes are poverty-stricken and socially discriminated against while all "unreserved" classes are filthy rich with PS3s, GameBoys, Plasma TVs and Lots of Money ?

5. Why should government ensure that only reserved classes get benifit of access to education easily at all levels while others should struggle doing the same ?

6. When the government could abolish Privy Purse and titles, why not reservation when it tries to tell that all Indians are equal and have equal status and opportunity ?

Economic reservation better ?

Economic deprivation effects all – Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaisya, Sudra, Muslim, Christian, boy, girl, handicapped, absolutely all. Economic reservation, will definitely result in economic upliftment, but will it solve the problem that is unique to the system of caste – social ostracism ? How can economic reservation guarantee that the “backward” class will not be discriminated against, on the basis of caste ? It can’t. What use is of the economic reservation, if access to school can’t be ensured in the first place. These people are not discriminated against, because they are poor, but because of the caste that they belong to. Economic backwardness results in discrimination, no doubt, and can be remedied through economic assistances or sops. But it can’t solve a problem, that is not related to economics.

Therefore, the problem that is unique to casteism, needs a solution that specifically addresses this caste based problem. This is where, the caste-based reservation kicks in. Expecting economic reservations to solve this unique problem, is like loosing your coin in the dark corner of an alley and then looking for it under the lamppost, just because there is light.

Before moving on, let me remind you that economic assistance exists, both at primary and higher level of education system. All schools, under Sarva Shiksha Abhiyan (Education for all program) scheme are free with a mid day meal system in place. At higher level, the govt. institutes, like IITs or AIMS, for example, charge a very nominal portion of its cost as fees. The remaining is subsidized. Heavily, I must add. On top of that, there is a system of student loan which is available, without any security with a very relaxed payment schedule.

What makes you think that economic reservation will have less effect than caste reservation ?

Are you aware that economic empowerment will result in financial security and independence ? A dalit denied access to a temple can build his own and say STFU to the upper class people who denied access to him. Financial empowerment to all brings true respect.

Caste reservation sucks because once reserved, always reserved. Unlike economic reservation, where a person once poor and now rich no longer needs to be provided support by the government.

What about the economically deprived upper class ?

Yes, they are a matter of concern. But they are effected by economic deprivation in the same way, as everyone in the society. They do not face the discrimination, that the backward class faces and since the economic alleviation of the poor is outside the scope of the current system of reservation, they have to be left out. Their plight can be solved through economic assistance that is already in place (see above) or may be through other better schemes.

Thats a very wrong way to put things. Lower castes face abuse and stay that way mainly because they are dependant on upper classes for shops, rations, books, etc. Same way in future, upper castes can face ire of lower castes if they are not financially secure. The best way to prevent caste wars among these n00bs is by increasing ecomonic assistances.

Instead of just loans, India can follow a methord used in National University of Singapore, where a student works for a certain number of years in a national company (call it a government company in India) to pay back for free education, but selection takes place solely on basis of merit and not on basis of who his parents are.

Promotes, incompetence, mediocrity and is antithetical to merit ?

Lets forget, caste based reservation for the moment. An estimate says, that every year, India produces more than 300,000 engineers. All the govt. sponsored seats fall, miserably short of the demand. Private colleges fill that place. These, private colleges charge capitation fees, directly or indirectly. (Any non-refundable part of advance is capitation fee.) On top of that, the infrastructure, i.e. lab facilities, faculty, campus etc, most of them provide are horrendous. So basically, a person with moolah, can get admitted to one of these colleges while a person with an empty pocket won’t. Isn’t it reservation in disguise, for the ones who can afford to buy education ? Merit, here explicitly takes a back seat, while money does all the bidding. The quality of graduates, that these institutes produce is also a question. Then there is a specific reservation for NRIs. It is nothing but seat reserved for the highest bidder.

This leads to an even bigger question of how to measure merit. That, in itself is a can of worms. But may be later.

There is a difference here FYKI.

Firstly, a majority of such universities suck and unless the student is good enough, he can't get a job from them.

Next, its a matter of pride in a way. A poor student can study and become rich and his children live more comfortably and get easy seats here, at the same time a rich boy can become poor and his kids can suffer later. This means this kind of reservation is not tied to one's birth but at something else. Something which someone makes himself or with help of his family.

Besides, what makes you think that some of the reputed private universities which have NRI quota don't give scholarships ? I would rather milk some rich students to help poorer students and improve infrastructure than give seats to undeserving students who neither bring good to the collage in terms of moolah, nor have they got as much merit as others.

And again, the system of "government grants" as I said before can help here. Poor students if they are asked Rs. 8 lakhs for a BE, they can get help from government for work in government office at slightly lesser pay for a minimum fixed no. of years. While government benifits here by getting work done for lesser money (as long as min no. of years of work is high enough), students benifit by getting degree and also a job.

Indian govermnent should start treating education as an "investment" to make money, mutually. Then India will start prospering a lot more.

But does reservation really promotes incompetence. Tamil Nadu can be a good case for studying. Currently TN has 69% reservation for the backward class. The reservation existed in TN, in such substantial quantity, long before Mandal Commission even made any recommendation. For the first time, in TN or anywhere in India, the backward class (BC), actually outsmarted the forward class (FC), in 2005. Of the total of 430 open seats, for Medical Entrance, 321 seats were bagged by the BCs, 57 by MBCs, 14 by SCs and only 38 by Forward Community. Since then, the BCs are getting a significant piece of the cake without resorting to reservation. TN tears to shreds the argument of breading mediocrity. TN experience also proves that, if reservation reaches to the actual needy, they can change the situation in no more than 2 or 3 generations only.

Lol WTF ? If they are that competant, and constitute a huge majority of population, WHY GIVE RESERVATION IN THE FIRST PLACE ? WHY NOT FIGHT WITH THE NEW "MINORITY" ON EQUAL TERMS ?

What makes 70% of population think 30% of population can control them socially to need reservation ?


[quite]Only a handful of BCs get the benefit. The rest is usurped by the people of the same class, but with money and power ?

That, people with money or power take advantage of this system, is true. There indeed are loopholes which allow a whole lot of people to take advantage of this system. This needs a thorough shake up of the system,(see below) but not discarding it altogether, just because some people are taking advantage of it. That, the backward class is slowly getting represented in almost all segment of society, is also true. That, in the very urban to semi-urban areas, the casteism has become a much watered down version of what is still practiced in rural India, is, again, true. We can’t ignore the benefits of a system because of some handful of unscrupulous men.[/quote]

A handful of unscruplous men ? WTH ?

By troubling 50% of the population if 2% benifit, while 48% abuse it, what sort of system is that ?

When the losses are more than profits, the system can't be called profitable anymore.

Blame the incorrect interpretation of the “varna” system ?

May be. May be not. What is the correct interpretation of the “verna” system, is open for never ending debates. There are enough evidences in the vedas, Upanishads, smiritis etc. that support the idea of “verna” from birth. Even Gita contradicts itself on this “verna” system. In any case, it is, at the moment irrelevant, what the “correct” interpretation is. What is relevant, is how it is being perceived by the mass.

Shall “injecting” the “correct” interpretation, if at all there is any such interpretation, of “verna” system into curriculum, eventually remedy the system ? There is data, to prove, that education does little to change one’s perception of religion. People, subject to rigors of scientific studies find it difficult to let go of their personal prejudices. Not exactly, too encouraging. Besides, what shall one do to the system of injustice, that is currently in place, while we wait, for the “correct” interpretation of “verna” to take its effect.

Isn't India a secular country, and the varna system a product of dumb hindu ideology ?

Does the government even know what secular means ? It means indifference to religion. Instead, "indian secularism" tries to consider all religions and goof up.

If the government never gave a damn to people's religious beliefs and stopped having laws that defined "hindu marrages", "muslim divorses", "hindu adoptions", etc, India would be a much better place.

Humanitariansm is the only true "religion" if you call it, or more appropriately, a set of ways to decide certain things outside the preview of science, which can solve Indian troubles and science for all other things.

Is the current system adequate ?

No. Far from it. The mechanism for reservation, at the primary level is fairly OK. But problem arises at the higher level. I personally found 2 of the suggestions, made by many sociologists, pretty interesting.

#1. Let the reservation skip a generation. Say Mr X takes the benefit of the quota system. In that case his kids won’t be eligible for quota. But his grandson would be. Now, if his grandson doesn’t take the benefit of quota, then it will pass to his great-grandson and so on. But, if he does take the benefit, then his great-grandson would become ineligible. (Something like Chinese population restriction) This will plug the loophole, where successive generations take the aide of reservation, even when there is no need for that. This will also create a necessity for one generation to try his best, not to waste his privilege.

There can be debate on, if one in two generations shall be skipped or one in three generations or some other combination.

#2. Let the reservation be based on a combination of factors. Give caste the highest weightage. But give, past performance, family income, area of residence, prominent weightage. (Something like Canadian immigration system of points) For example, just for explanation’s sake, give 35 points to caste, 25 points to past performance and 20 points each to family income and area of residence.

Again, there can be a debate on the factors that should be taken into consideration, or the weights that each such factor shall carry.

Why the fu(k should caste be given weightage In India when India is supposed to be a goddamn secular country ?

Economic reforms to education and abolishion of caste based dealings under law alone can solve the Indian cricis.

Conclusion:

Reservation based on caste is needed, and will continue to be needed till a substantial portion of the BCs get represented in the society. What constitutes substantial, can be debated at length – on the basis of percentage of BCs in total population, or below poverty level, or living in rural areas or some other combination. I am open to the idea of scrapping the current mechanism. But whatever mechanism takes its place, it must give caste its due prominence.

Nope. You are wrong.
Reservation on caste will only lead to more discrimination on caste as I already said.

Education and Education alone holds the key to economic prosperity, and government grants are IMO the fairest way for the government to get everybody into the mainstream. And economic prosperity alone holds the key to social success.

 

[karnivore]

Well, thank you MetalheadGautham for at least going through that post, although it is apparent, you haven’t quite understood, many of the points. You deserve a reply so I’ll try my best to answer all. (It looks like FAQ )

1. If the question of discrimination "socially" does not even arise in developed India, why should developed Indians bear the brunt of reservation and give in to undeserving fools ?

I guess by “developed India”, you mean the cities. If that’s what you mean, then, may be a casual look at the census data will tell you, close to 90% of the population live outside these cities. (There is actually no ST in Delhi). Any rational person would be thinking for the benefit of the majority on priority basis. Besides, why do you think "discrimination socially", in the developed India doesn’t happen. Is it because they come from Mars, or is it because of the awareness. How do you think awareness has spread ?

2. What makes you think that social representation in public sector obtained without merit and on basis of one's ancestor's identity gives social respect ?

On one hand you agree, that there is no social discrimination in developed India, and now you are doubting if they will get social respect. Tell, me, how would you know if your next door neighbor has become, what he has become, through the help of quota. Or is it that, every time you encounter a backward class looking or sounding surname, you immediately assume that he is through quota system. This is discrimination as well.

3.What makes you think that somebody should be pampered with facilities since his ancestors were denied it ?

The word “pampered” is almost an insult. Tell me, why do American Indians need far lower score at SAT to get into Harvard or MIT. It is called affirmative action.

4. Why do you assume that almost all "reserved" classes are poverty-stricken and socially discriminated against while all "unreserved" classes are filthy rich with PS3s, GameBoys, Plasma TVs and Lots of Money ?

Mandal Commission report, Sacchar Report, Census Reports and National Sample Survey Organisation (NSSO) Reports. Look these up, when you have time.

5. Why should government ensure that only reserved classes get benifit of access to education easily at all levels while others should struggle doing the same ?

Read up on the concept of affirmative action.

6. When the government could abolish Privy Purse and titles, why not reservation when it tries to tell that all Indians are equal and have equal status and opportunity ?

2000 years of systematic suppression leaves little scope for a community to be equal to the oppressor. They were/ are nowhere close to being considered equal. Not yet.

What makes you think that economic reservation will have less effect than caste reservation ?

Because economic reservation doesn’t address the issue of social discrimination. Because the problem of caste is not connected to economics at all. Besides, economic reservation will have some effect if one is able to take advantage of the reservation. How will one take that advantage, if one is prevented from accessing the institute that is dolling out the reservation. What would you want to ensure first. Of course, access to the institute, e.g. school, college, universities etc.

Are you aware that economic empowerment will result in financial security and independence ?... Financial empowerment to all brings true respect.

Yes, I guess. But how do you propose to economically empower the backward class without first ensuring that the tools of empowerment actually reach them.

A dalit denied access to a temple can build his own and say STFU to the upper class people who denied access to him.

You are saying this, because you do not know, that dalits do have separate temples, along with separate tea stalls, food stalls, drinking wells, ponds and even roads. Its like a society within a society.

Caste reservation sucks because once reserved, always reserved. Unlike economic reservation, where a person once poor and now rich no longer needs to be provided support by the government.

Agreed. Every anti-establishment becomes an establishment itself. That is why many solutions have been provided, and I have narrated just two of the interesting ones. All proposed by anti-reservationists, btw.

…in future, upper castes can face ire of lower castes if they are not financially secure.

Agreed. Reverse discrimination can be a reality. That’s why at the end of my post, the one you were replying to, I have myself pointed out, that it can’t go on forever. The question of how much is good enough, needs to be addressed.

But the reason is not financial insecurity. Current discrimination is also not based on financial reasons. This is something some member just can’t get a grip on. Financial insecurity has its own evils. Those can be addressed through economic empowerment, as you are saying. But how do you propose to address discrimination that is based only on caste.

Instead of just loans, India can follow a methord used in National University of Singapore, where a student works for a certain number of years in a national company (call it a government company in India) to pay back for free education, but selection takes place solely on basis of merit and not on basis of who his parents are.

I didn’t know if Singapore, or for that matter, anywhere in the world, has caste system, where people are judged on the basis of his birth. The problem is unique to India. While we can look at various countries for options, the uniqueness mustn’t be forgotten.

Anyway, student loans in India are very flexible as well. You don’t have to furnish security for such loans, in most cases, and can start repaying only when you start earning. Even income tax benefit is available for this.

Firstly, a majority of such universities suck and unless the student is good enough, he can't get a job from them.

Doesn’t matter. The question is of getting admitted into these colleges. Isn’t quota in colleges all about getting admitted ?

Next, its a matter of pride in a way. A poor student can study and become rich and his children live more comfortably and get easy seats here, at the same time a rich boy can become poor and his kids can suffer later. This means this kind of reservation is not tied to one's birth but at something else. Something which someone makes himself or with help of his family.

The question is regarding the so called merit, not the flexibility of reservation. If someone is getting admitted this way, then clearly merit is not in consideration here (this is a counter argument to “merit shall be the only criteria”). Whether he was poor before and rich now, is irrelevant.

Besides, what makes you think that some of the reputed private universities which have NRI quota don't give scholarships ? I would rather milk some rich students to help poorer students and improve infrastructure than give seats to undeserving students who neither bring good to the collage in terms of moolah, nor have they got as much merit as others.

You clearly don’t know how NRI seats are distributed.

And again, the system of "government grants" as I said before can help here. Poor students if they are asked Rs. 8 lakhs for a BE, they can get help from government for work in government office at slightly lesser pay for a minimum fixed no. of years. While government benifits here by getting work done for lesser money (as long as min no. of years of work is high enough), students benifit by getting degree and also a job.

First, govt. colleges are heavily subsidized. Second, student loan exists.

Lol WTF ? If they are that competant, and constitute a huge majority of population, WHY GIVE RESERVATION IN THE FIRST PLACE ? WHY NOT FIGHT WITH THE NEW "MINORITY" ON EQUAL TERMS ?

What makes 70% of population think 30% of population can control them socially to need reservation ?

Finding it hard to believe ? Look up. And btw, this is the outcome of almost 40 yrs of reservation. And you want to abolish it just when it is yielding result. In any case, the cut off marks for FCs and OBCs have been made the same.

By troubling 50% of the population if 2% benifit, while 48% abuse it, what sort of system is that ?

Do you have data to support your accusation. Personal anecdotes or stories you have heard from family members or from friends, or friends’ friend or friends’ friends’ friend do not constitute data.

When the losses are more than profits, the system can't be called profitable anymore.

What is the measure of profit in this case ?

Isn't India a secular country, and the varna system a product of dumb hindu ideology ?

Correct.

Does the government even know what secular means ? It means indifference to religion. Instead, "indian secularism" tries to consider all religions and goof up.

Do you know what is the exact hindi translation of the word secular. Nothing. Do you know how it has been translated in hindi, in our constitution. "PANTHNIRPEKSH" and not, as many think, "DHARMANIRAPEKSH". Read up. Indian secularism isn’t exclusive as European system. It is inclusive. In any case we are deviating.

If the government never gave a damn to people's religious beliefs and stopped having laws that defined "hindu marrages", "muslim divorses", "hindu adoptions", etc, India would be a much better place.

Agreed. But you need to learn the meaning of affirmative action, to actually understand why our govt, like the govt. of US, does what it does.

Humanitariansm is the only true "religion"…

And yet you choose to be anti-reservationist. Words are not matching. Anyway, its better if we keep our emotions outside the scope of this debate.

Why the fu(k should caste be given weightage In India when India is supposed to be a goddamn secular country ?

At the risk of sounding repetitive, it is because of something called affirmative action, correcting the past.

Economic reforms to education and abolishion of caste based dealings under law alone can solve the Indian cricis.

Agreed on reforms to education and caste based dealings are already banned.

Reservation on caste will only lead to more discrimination on caste as I already said.

You have also implied, just like many, that social discrimination in the urban areas is almost non-existent. I don’t see your assertions are matching your own matter-of-fact statements.

Education and Education alone holds the key to economic prosperity…

Unless, you are implying that education is something that falls from sky, how do you ensure, that the backward class be brought to the class room. Btw, do you really think education helps removing illogical ideas. Just take a peak in “Science vs God” thread.
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EDIT: Congrats, you have become a mod now. Party time.

 

[karnivore]

way of saying so called socially oppressed hav right to take so called revenge...

Really.

but i again say u r still thinking narrow mindedly...half of the pro-reservation activists are hypocrites....

What about the anti-reservationists. They are, perhaps, saints.

dont understand wat they saying emosionally...jus say wat they need without thinking of others...its not the way to go....all i say is this will result in discrimination for sure...untill reserv is based on economic status not caste eliminating creamy layer

Yes. This is the best policy. Turn your back to the fire and start wishing it is not there. Hmmm...you remind of someone.