Italy Won't Send Accused Marines to India

[Renny]

Italy Won't Send Accused Marines to India

Italy has decided not to send two marines back to India, where they stand accused of shooting two local fisherman, the Foreign Ministry in Rome said on Monday.

"Italy has always held that Indian authorities violated international law" in the case, the ministry said, adding that Foreign Minister Giulio Terzi had instructed Italy's ambassador in New Delhi to deliver a written note to the Indian government.

The case relates to Massimilano Latorre and Salvatore Girone, who are accused of fatally shooting the fisherman off the coast of Kerala, mistaking them for pirates.

India's Supreme Court in February let the two men return to Italy to vote in general elections. However, the court has ruled that India has the jurisdiction to try the two marines.

The two men, who were being held at the Italian Embassy in India and reported to a local police station once a week, were also allowed to return to their families for Christmas.

Italy has long held the case should be transferred to Italy, arguing that the actual shooting had taken place in international waters.

Rome's request that New Delhi agree to pursue a bilateral dialogue to find a diplomatic solution has gone unanswered, Mr. Terzi's office said.


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Just fu#kin great..

> First they send them back to Italy for Christmas.
> Second time our govt. sends them back to vote, couldn't they have emailed their choices?

Looks like someone wanted to save their Italian brethren, and also maybe settle the latest defense scandal.

Italy - Fool me once (bofors) shame on you, fool me twice (Augusta, those bleeding marines) shame on me (India).

 

[dashing.sujay]

I knew it that it was gonna happen. I remember some political personality answered on being questioned on govt's this action, "agar italy wale baad me culprits ko nahi bhejte hain, to kya hum unpe chadhai kar dein?"

Seriously, shame on India. This is like an open challenge/question to india's take on international issues like this. WE seriously need some kick ass foreign policy, not slave leaders.

 

[Extreme Gamer]

India should reduce diplomatic relations with Italy to the minimum level that can happen without expelling the Italian ambassador if the marines do not return by April-end. After that, an Interpol notice should be issued, as they are absconding defendants to the case. Also, if by end of July the marines are not back, the ambassador should be expelled and the Indian embassy should stop issuing visas, or at the very least make it a billion times more difficult to get a visa for Italians.

However, I highly doubt anything is going to happen. If the govt. cannot handle an idiot of a north-western neighbour over dead soldiers whose human rights were violated, what will it do about civillians who although were killed, were not mutilated?

Many nations already view us as cojone-less, even if they do not openly admit it, and if we do not push our weight around in Europe especially after this, it is certain that other nations will become a lot more openly rude against us.

 

[bubusam13]

^^ you are right. Action must me taken. And Italy is not a that world superpower that will effect India. But may be India's top leadership hails from Italy. So who knows.

 

[Sarath]

Lets see how our government answers this insult.

 

[Hrishi]

What makes me Sad is that we our government is not even controlled by someone from Indian origin.
In addition to that most of the Top ministers from ruling party came in power by hereditary ("Chacha , Mama , Beta , ..etc..etc..) rather than voting.

"Politicians are supposed to be chosen by vote and not by being born in a political family." Feels like sort of aristocracy sometimes. .


EpicSad

 

[Desmond]

Government can't even handle internal issues and you all expect them to handle international issues?

 

[ssdivisiongermany1933]

Lets see how our government answers this insult.

An official condemn will happen , that's the maximum Indian government can do .Don't expect more

 

[Extreme Gamer]

What makes me Sad is that we our government is not even controlled by someone from Indian origin.
In addition to that most of the Top ministers from ruling party came in power by hereditary ("Chacha , Mama , Beta , ..etc..etc..) rather than voting.

"Politicians are supposed to be chosen by vote and not by being born in a political family." Feels like sort of aristocracy sometimes. .


EpicSad

I don't care that an Italian immigrant controls the government. Heck, I would not if it was a even a person of Chinese origin. What I do care about is how the government under the person concerned reacts.

Issuing statements is not enough. Cancelling the chopper deal could be an awesome step. As it is the idiot Pranab Mukherjee diluted the requirements for the chopper deal to allow AugustaWestland to sell its choppers.
If I remember correctly, the maximum elevation requirement was toned down from 19000 feet to 15000 feet. I bet he was thinking [read in Bengali] "Auto height-e amaar haart-attack hoiye jaabe. Aar taka ta kom lagbe kom height-e."

 

[Ronnie11]

What makes me Sad is that we our government is not even controlled by someone from Indian origin.
In addition to that most of the Top ministers from ruling party came in power by hereditary ("Chacha , Mama , Beta , ..etc..etc..) rather than voting.

"Politicians are supposed to be chosen by vote and not by being born in a political family." Feels like sort of aristocracy sometimes. .


EpicSad

Erm...how does it matter if a person is of indian origin or not..do u think a person of indian origin would have done a better job...agree about the second part where its become more of a family thing...but blaming everything for a non indian origin thing is ridiculous...it shouldn't matter where you are coming from...

I don't care that an Italian immigrant controls the government. Heck, I would not if it was a even a person of Chinese origin. What I do care about is how the government under the person concerned reacts.

Issuing statements is not enough. Cancelling the chopper deal could be an awesome step. As it is the idiot Pranab Mukherjee diluted the requirements for the chopper deal to allow AugustaWestland to sell its choppers.
If I remember correctly, the maximum elevation requirement was toned down from 19000 feet to 15000 feet. I bet he was thinking [read in Bengali] "Auto height-e amaar haart-attack hoiye jaabe. Aar taka ta kom lagbe kom height-e."

Also the main reason why the requirement was toned down was because in this case,there was only a single vendor or none who could meet the requirements...to increase the competition, they diluted it...its a common practice tbh...even mmrca deal had some issues with regards to test in leh where the engines couldn't cope up...its highly debatable whether this is right or wrong..what was the bigger issue in the augusta westland case was that how the helicopters were fast tracked ..whereas we have problems with procuring howitzers for the past few decades....

 

[funskar]

No surprise for me..
As our country is also controlled by italian

 

[Hrishi]

Erm...how does it matter if a person is of indian origin or not..do u think a person of indian origin would have done a better job...agree about the second part where its become more of a family thing...but blaming everything for a non indian origin thing is ridiculous...it shouldn't matter where you are coming from...

TBH , it does. There is nothing so ridiculous about it.
I won't prefer someone born and brought up in Pakistan controlling the Indian Govt unless he makes considerable development in favor of India and has absolutely Zero interest in other country's politics.
[And thats my personal opinion. You have no right to say whether its ridiculous or whatsoever.]

 

[GhorMaanas]

India should reduce diplomatic relations with Italy to the minimum level that can happen without expelling the Italian ambassador if the marines do not return by April-end. After that, an Interpol notice should be issued, as they are absconding defendants to the case. Also, if by end of July the marines are not back, the ambassador should be expelled and the Indian embassy should stop issuing visas, or at the very least make it a billion times more difficult to get a visa for Italians.

However, I highly doubt anything is going to happen. If the govt. cannot handle an idiot of a north-western neighbour over dead soldiers whose human rights were violated, what will it do about civillians who although were killed, were not mutilated?

Many nations already view us as cojone-less, even if they do not openly admit it, and if we do not push our weight around in Europe especially after this, it is certain that other nations will become a lot more openly rude against us.

(seeing you back here after a long time )

european businessmen are keen, as well as india has been inviting them, to invest here. this could be an opportune moment to flex arms (though am hoping too much from our govt.)

{just a funny quote; a user on FB had posted - "one italian doesn't want to leave india, and some don't want to come back to india."}

 

[Ronnie11]

TBH , it does. There is nothing so ridiculous about it.
I won't prefer someone born and brought up in Pakistan controlling the Indian Govt unless he makes considerable development in favor of India and has absolutely Zero interest in other country's politics.
[And thats my personal opinion. You have no right to say whether its ridiculous or whatsoever.]

wait...are pakistani's controlling the indian govt in any way...are they making any policies here as such..why would they when they have their own country to deal with...though there are many pakistanis who contribute to the indian society in different ways but thats another topic...

unless he makes considerable development in favor of India and has absolutely Zero interest in other country's politics.

didn't quite get what you mean by this..zero interest in other country's politics??Who has any interest in other country's politics..we have diplomats for that..

also let me correct my statement..the ridiculous thing was not meant to be a personal attack to you...it was a general statement i made to people who were posting such comments..

 

[Hrishi]

wait...are pakistani's controlling the indian govt in any way...are they making any policies here as such..why would they when they have their own country to deal with...though there are many pakistanis who contribute to the indian society in different ways but thats another topic...

didn't quite get what you mean by this..zero interest in other country's politics??Who has any interest in other country's politics..we have diplomats for that..

also let me correct my statement..the ridiculous thing was not meant to be a personal attack to you...it was a general statement i made to people who were posting such comments..

By Pakistan(that was an example) I mean someone from that origin.He'll always be interested in that country's favor . Same story with the Italian lady.
Anyways let end it up here , o/w it might strecth into another heated argument.

 

[Extreme Gamer]

Also the main reason why the requirement was toned down was because in this case,there was only a single vendor or none who could meet the requirements...to increase the competition, they diluted it...its a common practice tbh...even mmrca deal had some issues with regards to test in leh where the engines couldn't cope up...its highly debatable whether this is right or wrong..what was the bigger issue in the augusta westland case was that how the helicopters were fast tracked ..whereas we have problems with procuring howitzers for the past few decades....

If the specs cant cope up, then you develop the necessary tech. Rather than looking for a weaker alternative, you look at slightly toned down versions as an interim measure. If our IITs, NITs, IISc etc really are "premier" institutions [I do not doubt that, just the research aspect needs more work], then the govt. should attract them to the military R&D sector to develop armaments. If I remember correctly, the Howitzers are made by a Brit company. Yet the government is buying them from the US, and attracting the "commission rap" that has landed the government in a soup so many times already. Only this time, the newspapers will sing about how the US swindled India out of millions of dollars instead of BAE systems.

TBH , it does. There is nothing so ridiculous about it.
I won't prefer someone born and brought up in Pakistan controlling the Indian Govt unless he makes considerable development in favor of India and has absolutely Zero interest in other country's politics.
[And thats my personal opinion. You have no right to say whether its ridiculous or whatsoever.]

While the pasta-woman we are discussing hasn't exactly done anything to "benefit" the nation, she hasn't exactly remained an Italian patriot. If she had then SMS-babu would not have said anything in public. He would remain Mr. Silent. I do not consider original ethnicity as a reason to hate someone. On that basis Anglo-Indians too should be treated like the pasta-woman, i.e. they are UK patriots until they contribute significantly to India. My personal opinion is that nations should be abolished. As a first step towards that, we need to have a global currency rather than many different currencies. In the long run it will highly streamline economic development. Watch Code Geass to get an idea of which concept I'm talking about [but I diverge from the topic at hand].
So yes, I do think that your statement is ridiculous. However, as that is my personal opinion, you have no right to say anything about it

(seeing you back here after a long time )

european businessmen are keen, as well as india has been inviting them, to invest here. this could be an opportune moment to flex arms (though am hoping too much from our govt.)

{just a funny quote; a user on FB had posted - "one italian doesn't want to leave india, and some don't want to come back to india."}

(Maybe you didn't notice, but I've been on for almost a month now. But I've decided to put the reasons for which I'd left this place behind me so I'm back although I cannot say I'll be overly active here. Thanks for the welcome though )

I have to agree with your suggested economic steps. I did not think of that one. Give trouble to Italian corporations. But i think India is more concerned about credit ratings than a couple of dead civillians. But since SMS has said that "all options are open" (on expelling the Italian ambassador to India, did not expect this reaction though), corporations shouldn't be getting special treatment. Lets wait and watch.

The SC has been very accommodating to those soldiers needs (I'm not sure whether Marines are sailors or soldiers so I'll stick to soldiers), and I think the soldiers should respect the court. SC ruled that Kerala HC cannot hear the case, but murders happened in Indian territorial waters. This means India has the jurisdiction to try the pizza-boys. If Italy disagrees then it has to file a counter-claim. It can't disobey the court, especially after giving written consent.

On another note, could someone tell me how far off the Indian coast was the Italian ship? I will verify whether Italy's basis has any legal standing or not. No international law is above a sovereign nation's constitution, since these laws are only applicable to signatory nations that ratify their assent, and governments can withdraw their assent if they want to, although not without much international condemnation usually. If an international law conflicts with a national law, in a democracy the national law prevails, since the power of the legislature is above the power of the executive. On that basis, if the Indian constitution states that the Judiciary has the authority to hear cases when a crime is committed within India-claimed ocean territory, the SC has every right to do so, provided that the killings indeed took place within Indian territory.

 

[Ronnie11]

By Pakistan(that was an example) I mean someone from that origin.He'll always be interested in that country's favor . Same story with the Italian lady.
Anyways let end it up here , o/w it might strecth into another heated argument.

yeah didn't want to start any flame war or anything..lets leave it here...

If the specs cant cope up, then you develop the necessary tech. Rather than looking for a weaker alternative, you look at slightly toned down versions as an interim measure. If our IITs, NITs, IISc etc really are "premier" institutions [I do not doubt that, just the research aspect needs more work], then the govt. should attract them to the military R&D sector to develop armaments. If I remember correctly, the Howitzers are made by a Brit company. Yet the government is buying them from the US, and attracting the "commission rap" that has landed the government in a soup so many times already. Only this time, the newspapers will sing about how the US swindled India out of millions of dollars instead of BAE systems.

Yes i totally agree with you..we need to develop the tech ourselves...sadly the investment on this has been rather weak...also most of these techs will take a lot of time to develop,so patience is key,but people tend to jump the wagon when a test fails...most of these R&D units like DRDO cannot match the pay of the private companies..i believe private companies should participate more in developing military tech..though i do know few IIT guys who are in DRDO & other institutions...money is a big probs here...
The M777 howitzers were brought up by BAE which coincidentally also owns the legendary bofors...USA manufactures these howitzers & the Indo-US deal for these proposed howitzers were via FMS...Its a direct govt to govt deal..so middlemen are generally not involved in this..i think Indian govt prefers this route mainly because of the lower chance of corruption in this method...or thats what i think it is...India concluded a similar deal sometime back for C17 via FMS...

crap,its gone off-topic..sry mods...

 

[Hrishi]

If the specs cant cope up, then you develop the necessary tech. Rather than looking for a weaker alternative, you look at slightly toned down versions as an interim measure. If our IITs, NITs, IISc etc really are "premier" institutions [I do not doubt that, just the research aspect needs more work], then the govt. should attract them to the military R&D sector to develop armaments. If I remember correctly, the Howitzers are made by a Brit company. Yet the government is buying them from the US, and attracting the "commission rap" that has landed the government in a soup so many times already. Only this time, the newspapers will sing about how the US swindled India out of millions of dollars instead of BAE systems.



While the pasta-woman we are discussing hasn't exactly done anything to "benefit" the nation, she hasn't exactly remained an Italian patriot. If she had then SMS-babu would not have said anything in public. He would remain Mr. Silent. I do not consider original ethnicity as a reason to hate someone. On that basis Anglo-Indians too should be treated like the pasta-woman, i.e. they are UK patriots until they contribute significantly to India. My personal opinion is that nations should be abolished. As a first step towards that, we need to have a global currency rather than many different currencies. In the long run it will highly streamline economic development. Watch Code Geass to get an idea of which concept I'm talking about [but I diverge from the topic at hand].
So yes, I do think that your statement is ridiculous. However, as that is my personal opinion, you have no right to say anything about it



(Maybe you didn't notice, but I've been on for almost a month now. But I've decided to put the reasons for which I'd left this place behind me so I'm back although I cannot say I'll be overly active here. Thanks for the welcome though )

I have to agree with your suggested economic steps. I did not think of that one. Give trouble to Italian corporations. But i think India is more concerned about credit ratings than a couple of dead civillians. But since SMS has said that "all options are open" (on expelling the Italian ambassador to India, did not expect this reaction though), corporations shouldn't be getting special treatment. Lets wait and watch.

The SC has been very accommodating to those soldiers needs (I'm not sure whether Marines are sailors or soldiers so I'll stick to soldiers), and I think the soldiers should respect the court. SC ruled that Kerala HC cannot hear the case, but murders happened in Indian territorial waters. This means India has the jurisdiction to try the pizza-boys. If Italy disagrees then it has to file a counter-claim. It can't disobey the court, especially after giving written consent.

On another note, could someone tell me how far off the Indian coast was the Italian ship? I will verify whether Italy's basis has any legal standing or not. No international law is above a sovereign nation's constitution, since these laws are only applicable to signatory nations that ratify their assent, and governments can withdraw their assent if they want to, although not without much international condemnation usually. If an international law conflicts with a national law, in a democracy the national law prevails, since the power of the legislature is above the power of the executive. On that basis, if the Indian constitution states that the Judiciary has the authority to hear cases when a crime is committed within India-claimed ocean territory, the SC has every right to do so, provided that the killings indeed took place within Indian territory.

ANglo-Indians are a different story , and I have no where mentioned hating them.I am talking specifically about that Pasta lady. IDK why you think she has never played an important role(be it positive or negative) . I can give you several instances for the same. But then again , its just a BS part of discussion. SO not gonna waste my time on it and try to defend my answer and heating up the discussion.

 

[Extreme Gamer]

ANglo-Indians are a different story , and I have no where mentioned hating them.I am talking specifically about that Pasta lady. IDK why you think she has never played an important role(be it positive or negative) . I can give you several instances for the same. But then again , its just a BS part of discussion. SO not gonna waste my time on it and try to defend my answer and heating up the discussion.

Don't worry I won't get pissed. I said that she has not done anything to benefit the nation. Maybe the govt. collectively but Pasta-woman alone, and by herself has done very little by your definition.

 

[Harsh Pranami]

Seriously!!! They let those culprits go for vote in general elections??