*** Science Or God? ***

Science or God?


  • Total voters
    517

sygeek

Technomancer
Sometimes I wonder should we have law and order at all?!!!

God is doing everything. God knows everything and if some one gets killed, robbed or raped today that must have some bigger role.

Like some other person not getting killed, not robbed or raped. That some other person must have been very close to God, very dear and important. So he/she has to live in expense of this poor soul's life and dignity.

Sometimes, I wonder (I wonder too much you see!) if all the theists look back on the logics they put to explain an incident in favor of God.
It is not necessarily good or bad. MORE OVER, you're talking about free will, not accidents which come in unexpected.

So, human is responsible for his wrong-doing in this case, he OBVIOUSLY can't predict what will happen to his victim to save someone else.

See, I know what you're talking about. I've had these questions tonnes of time. GOD IS ALL LOVING and all that BS is false. God is all loving but not directly, not in your little own world. I advice you do a little study on "reality" (youtube).

God's reality is pretty much what reality is. Ours is just falsified, we haven't even discovered the true reality yet.

I'm just going to give an example which may look unfair, but have you ever read about quantum physics. Its full of MIND-BOGGLING things that although are true and proved, yet they are UNBELIEVABLE, its like you're talking about (PROVED AND TRUE) fantasy stuff. That is where our false reality fails.

Other than that, to be honest, I'm not your everyday orthodox theist. I don't believe in the same spirituality (with the same mindset) that the average theist does. So on practical terms (on generalization), I believe in spirituality partially. I try to reason, I don't believe in half the (misintrepreted) stuff my mom talks about.
 
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Sarath

iDota
God's reality is pretty much what reality is. Ours is just falsified, we haven't even discovered the true reality yet.

Please add "Inception Plot alarm" when posting such comments. Its is too taxing on the mind.
 

speedyguy

Cyborg Agent
@Extreme Gamer : my point was that i agree with you and was trying to throw some more light on your comments!!!

@sygeek : so you mean my sarcasm was not actually a sarcasm. god do make accidents happen to get a control over population and stuffs like that. if its really in hands of god why does he allow these things to happen. why he allowed over population rather than killing people. why he allowed evil people to get birth so he makes them suffer after they do all the bad stuffs. on what grounds do we say god is controlling everything that is happening. there is no such base to it.

like already mentioned above, shoot me at my heart and i will die. just pointing a gun at my heart wont work. that does not make you god because you just had a control over my life. its all about our deeds.

Enjoy~!
 

sygeek

Technomancer
@Extreme Gamer : my point was that i agree with you and was trying to throw some more light on your comments!!!

@sygeek : so you mean my sarcasm was not actually a sarcasm. god do make accidents happen to get a control over population and stuffs like that. if its really in hands of god why does he allow these things to happen. why he allowed over population rather than killing people. why he allowed evil people to get birth so he makes them suffer after they do all the bad stuffs. on what grounds do we say god is controlling everything that is happening. there is no such base to it.
The world has to finish at some point, the balance has to be maintained. But, the humans are failing at it in every single way. It was destined to be this way which will eventually lead to the divine plan.

Like I said, people aren't evil by birth, they're evil by their will, free will.


Exactly, there is no proper scientific base to it, we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place then. Okay, imagine if there is someone so complex that he created and maintains the whole of universe. Will he just make everything work just like that? There is no magic mumbo jumbo here, it all happens in such a natural way that we're accustomed to, we can call it coincidence.

Coincidence is a succession of events which leads to a specific eerie event. That's how God works, he doesn't just lay everything out directly in front of you. In practical terms, God works indirectly.

Talking about his base is the same as asking a dog about the inner workings of a human. We can never be as complex as God, even through evolution our race is destined to finish off before we can reach that amount of complexity.

TLDR
: Every action of God is justified in his reality, i.e. the true reality. But we fail to interpret it because our reality is falsified. The consequence, good or bad, the action is truly justified. Imagine all the millions of cancer patients who want to live their life, they die, people around them lose faith. That's our dynamic reality, falsified.


For the people who are confused with the term reality.
 

rhitwick

Democracy is a myth
The world has to finish at some point, the balance has to be maintained. But, the humans are failing at it in every single way. It was destined to be this way which will eventually lead to the divine plan.
What balance?
And if humans are failing and that is the devine plan then how are humans failing?

Like I said, people aren't evil by birth, they're evil by their will, free will.
What is free will?
Men in nature are imitative. We copy since the first day we are born. walking, talking, every jesture, posture all.

Your actions today is not the result of your will, its the result of your ability to copy from others and how much of the copied material you remember. If you consider an action by someone else as a straight line
____________________________________________

and after copying and in time of repeating it in near future it would turn to like this,
_______ _______________ _____________________
Those gaps form due to your memorizing power and as you had to repeat it, you need to fill in the blanks...........and your uniqueness born thus.


Exactly, there is no proper scientific base to it, we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place then.
Ya, this is how its done. Everything that is not explained by science must be an act of god. If its explained by science, well, lets move on to next topic which is not yet explained by science.
Why do that? Why not defend your earlier argument, your earlier claim? If some incidents and unexplained phenomena are your proof of God being existing...then denying them even one incident one day makes you denying god if for one bit everyday.
You just move from topic to topic....nothing else.


Okay, imagine if there is someone so complex that he created and maintains the whole of universe.
Well, since bbirth we are taught to believe this imagination. We can do this any time. But, what if I ask you to believe the opposite for at least 5 mins. Where do you see yourself?

Will he just make everything work just like that? There is no magic mumbo jumbo here, it all happens in such a natural way that we're accustomed to, we can call it coincidence.

There is no co-incidence. Everything that happens, happens for a reason. I think you have never tried to trace back any events that seemed to be a co-incidence.
Making an incidence unnatural and unpredictable makes it special, and makes you feel special and you either want to thank someone or blame someone (depending on the nature of the incident) thus god is brought again.

From now on when you see something happening, try asking why rather settling for "God's will". Accepting things as a result of God's will is easy but getting the answer of a "why" requires courage, enthusiasm and willingness to go on even when you are faced with a dead end.
Can you do it?

(Task: find a person who has broken his/her hand someday. Try to get to the bbottom of that. Why his/her hand/leg/x is broken? Why that part is only broken not any other part? why its even broken? etc. )

Coincidence is a succession of events which leads to a specific eerie event.
Oh, got your point... you know co-incidence but are too mesmerized by it to open your eyes to acknowlledge your own reasoning for it.

That's how God works, he doesn't just lay everything out directly in front of you. In practical terms, God works indirectly.

And, how a co-incidence (or rather well explained and expected) incidence is a work of god?


We can never be as complex as God, even through evolution our race is destined to finish off before we can reach that amount of complexity.
So you actually believe in evolution? Why do you think there is evolution or you have some godly explanation for evolution too (you know, if you do really have a godly explanation of evolution, you would be the first person in the world to do that. Others just deny of evolution.)

Though I do not completely agree with the theories of Daniken but he could answer your few queries.



TLDR
: Every action of God is justified in his reality, i.e. the true reality. But we fail to interpret it because our reality is falsified. The consequence, good or bad, the action is truly justified. Imagine all the millions of cancer patients who want to live their life, they die, people around them lose faith. That's our dynamic reality, falsified.
And, you are well aware of God's reality? If God's existence is still under debate (oh, not you. You already accept. So your and our reality is different) how can God's reality be real?

If reality is is nothing but perspective of different persons then that might just be called point-of-view.
 

Extreme Gamer

僕はガンダム!
Vendor
If god decides who will die and who will live. Why does he choose the innocents and not the criminals like Dawood Ibrahim?

Unless he is randomizing it, it doesnt make any sense.

If he is randomizing it then the basic tenet of the existence of god (intelligent design) is proved wrong, because intelligent design claims that a higher level of intelligence (i.e. god) caused this universe and in extension, earth to occur.

So you theists are f***ed over twice :D
 

Sarath

iDota
If god decides who will die and who will live. Why does he choose the innocents and not the criminals like Dawood Ibrahim?

He has bigger plans that we humans cannot comprehend. Hence he lives. BTW god already blessed his last sons marraige (in *censored*istan). No media was allowed to attend the marraige and hence God could not be captured on film :(
 
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speedyguy

Cyborg Agent
Sygeek: sir all your statements reflect only one thing and it is belief. Good youhave belief in something but does that really make you prove your point. Anything which humans find beyond understanding reach interpret it as actions of god. But theres no base to it.

Enjoy~!
 

Sarath

iDota
It is difficult to make a theist not believe in God.
Its is even more difficult to make an atheist believe in God.​
 

The Conqueror

Elevating Humanity
Anything which humans find beyond understanding reach interpret it as actions of god. But theres no base to it.
I do not agree with this point.
For me, God is actually our own thoughts. It's like when you desire something, our thoughts somehow connect with the universe and make it happen. Watch The Secret.

I will make my reply more substantial once I am free today.

now i have a different situation here, in these worship places in india, there are hundreds killed every year in stampede. why no one mentions the same quote there? what's their fault who are killed? worshiping? or is it God only who does that to help india out with population?
If god decides who will die and who will live. Why does he choose the innocents and not the criminals like Dawood Ibrahim?

Unless he is randomizing it, it doesnt make any sense.

Of course, that's why we are humans. Everyone has freedom to go and kill anyone. The same freedom is given to all the animals. The rule of the nature " Survival of the fittest".

Now when two are involved in a fight, God will not favour anyone. That's it!
One Decision may be good for one, but it is not applicable for everyone.
In fact the concept of Good and Bad is not clear. Violence is often perceived as "Bad" but think about it again - when you eat vegetables you are also eating a "living" cell which was killed.
Should you be punished for eating it? Should you be punished for eating a chicken?
For humanity and for the continuiation of our species we think terrorism is bad and that is very correct. But when you change your perspective, you can see that every organism has to compete for survival even among their own species.
Everyday when the sun rises, a Lion awakes knowing it has to outrun a deer
or be starved to death
Everyday when the sun rises, a deer awakens knowing it has to outrun a Lion
or embrace death
Whether you are a lion or a deer,
When the sun rises,
Better be running at your best!
 
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Sarath

iDota
I do not agree with this point.
For me, God is actually our own thoughts. It's like when you desire something, our thoughts somehow connect with the universe and make it happen. Watch The Secret.
Yeah I heard this is "Om Shaanti Om".

Theists are actually happier since such fantasy reasoning is actually more pleasing than say that the possiblity of a success rate for you is this this and this based on permutations and combinations. Ofcourse an atheist would just come to a boring conclusion like he had a 1 in a million chances of landing the lottery and would revel only in the "winning money"; whereas the theist would revel in the fact that "God" had blessed him with such a bounty out of all the people and would even go ahead and offer, maybe free food to the poor etc or donate some and then be happy with the fact that he is so "bloody" rich.

You see atheist is more happy than theist. Being theist sucks and I know that but I cannot blind myself once I know the truth.

Its like you still believe in Santa Claus and hence your christmas is always happier than mine. (Since I know its my dad, I would be making calculations based on his salary and his interests, like if he would like buying what I asked for and then act like I don't know the secret and innocently ask for a gift that has the highest possibility of fruition)



For humanity and for the continuiation of our species we think terrorism is bad and that is very correct. But when you change your perspective, you can see that every organism has to compete for survival even among their own species.
Survival? Why does he have to kill me for him to survive. Please use normal people as examples.

Please remember the rule:
Humans > Animals > Plants
Maybe you can take that exponentially. So comparing humans killing humans (terrorism) , humans killing animals (chicken) and then human killing plants is like comparing Ferrari to a Maruti. You need to level the arguments.

Esp when you are trying to say that god killed those people at temple because they killed vegetable :shock:

Now when two are involved in a fight, God will not favour anyone. That's it!

Bhagwan Krishna did favour Arjun in the battle of Kurukshektra. Umm point void! :))

{I am trying to be secular but my knowledge is pretty limited to what I watched on TV and this is the only example I could muster}

Everyday when the sun rises, a Lion awakes knowing it has to outrun a deer
or be starved to death
Everyday when the sun rises, a deer awakens knowing it has to outrun a Lion
or embrace death
Whether you are a lion or a deer,
When the sun rises,
Better be running at your best!

All the organisms (animals) quoted above are atheists. Kindly quote atheists for exapmles. :)
 

The Conqueror

Elevating Humanity
Esp when you are trying to say that god killed those people at temple because they killed vegetable :shock:
That was not my intention. I meant to say that look, terrorism takes place because of the freedom each individual has. God is in no way responsible for the freedom he gave you , its upto you how you use the freedom.
 

The Conqueror

Elevating Humanity
Well to clear things up, I in no way mentioned God to be an authority who is in charge of the world. God is "God". Think about it. Who gave force necessary for the planets to revolve around the sun? And so on.. Every cause has a reason but what about the cause of 'that' reason?
But, everything that happens is a work of God right? How come he's not responsible?

I would not be surprised to see that those who claim that they do not believe in god will have some god's idols in their house.
 

speedyguy

Cyborg Agent
point to be noted rhitwick ;)

I do not agree with this point.
For me, God is actually our own thoughts. It's like when you desire something, our thoughts somehow connect with the universe and make it happen. Watch The Secret.

Again the point which im trying to talk about. There is a word called "somehow". Whenever we talk about god we HAVE to use terms like "somehow", "may", "would", "believe" etc etc. Such words itself say that you are not certain with your arguments.

About killing humans and chickens :) , of course some may interpret it wrong as killing even the chickens but that is what we humans do. We may choose not to or we may do it. Its our intelligence that tells us that we have to kill plants to survive. Humans created strict laws against killing tigers in recent years as their species are getting extinct. These all come with our intelligence, they weren't written in Bhagwat Geeta.

Enjoy~!
 

The Conqueror

Elevating Humanity
point to be noted rhitwick ;)



Again the point which im trying to talk about. There is a word called "somehow". Whenever we talk about god we HAVE to use terms like "somehow", "may", "would", "believe" etc etc. Such words itself say that you are not certain with your arguments.

About killing humans and chickens :) , of course some may interpret it wrong as killing even the chickens but that is what we humans do. We may choose not to or we may do it. Its our intelligence that tells us that we have to kill plants to survive. Humans created strict laws against killing tigers in recent years as their species are getting extinct. These all come with our intelligence, they weren't written in Bhagwat Geeta.

Enjoy~!
From Google:
some·howAdverb/ˈsəmˌhou/
1. In some way; by some means.
By Some Means. The medium is unknown, but the the thing is known. Don't we use arbitrary "assumptions" when proving things in Science?
 

rhitwick

Democracy is a myth
Why is it cool to idolize Superman/Batman/Etc-man and not Ram/Arjun/Hanuman?

We should have more movies on these epic figures.

Oh, sorry wrong thread...

Move to offtopic thread plz...
 

Extreme Gamer

僕はガンダム!
Vendor
@The Conqueror: No.

They are classified as hypotheses, and have to be verified experimentally before the proposed information can be promoted to theory, which again is not proof.

Arbitrary assumptions, called hypotheses (singular- hypothesis) are used only to hold the explanation together. When experimentally verified, and thus, promoted to theory, it is just the most logical explanation available.

Remember newton's Laws of motion? Qualitatively they are correct (hence laws), but the calculation part was proved wrong by relativity (which wasn't Einstein's creation at all: Albert Einstein: Plagiarist and Fraud).

In a high level mathematics meet that was held in India, it was suggested that quantum theory can explain our "sentience" and "free thought" process. It was agreed to by most of the attendees (very senior-level mathematicians from around the planet).

Your mind's thought process works in a random manner, which cannot be god's will. If god is a higher level sentience, then to not defy his own principle he must be working under a 'super-god's' will and that 'super-god' under a 'hyper-god' and so on(infinitely) . If he is not, then automatically he is working under random thought, which defies the logic of sentience that you theists are saying.
You cant have randomization and intelligent design under the same roof.
If there are infinite levels of 'god' then god sounds really absurd doesn't it?

If it really was 'god's will', why would he make a mockery of himself in this thread? Why would he make us Atheists insult him. Its like calling yourself a dick.

@Sarath: If your statement on Dawood was sarcasm then I salute you. If it wasn't, then do not make a silly comment(no offense intended; too many ban-happy mods around ;) ).

There cant be different gods for different religions. That is like suggesting that the Bible god only created Jews (Christians came when humans were on earth for a VERY long time).
Its like suggesting that Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Jains (at least they're Atheists), Parsis etc are actually defying 'god's will', if god created everyone. Everyone knows Hindus have been around before Jews have.

There have been prehistoric religions too before Hindus came into existence (obviously). Which again defies the existence of God.

How is it that some theists believe in 200 gods, others only 10, others only 1? Decide, people.

How can we take any theist's words on god seriously if they cannot decide among themselves on the customs, principles and more importantly religious beliefs and the number of gods/goddesses etc BS that actually exist?
 
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Sarath

iDota
I would not be surprised to see that those who claim that they do not believe in god will have some god's idols in their house.

That reminds me. I haven't done the Puja for my bike. Been a year without it, scary.

@Sarath: If your statement on Dawood was sarcasm then I salute you. If it wasn't, then do not make a silly comment(no offense intended; too many ban-happy mods around ;) ).

Sarcasm or not? haha. You should know better what my true intentions in those words were.

Don't worry. I am not making personal attacks on anyone so that should keep me safe. BTW I forgot what I typed, will check it out.
 
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