Reservation System - Should it exist?
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utsav
damn busy...
karnivore
in your face..
You are now shifting the goal post. I do agree, though, that data is pretty old. (Since this is 2009, you will perhaps argue that we shouldn’t consider Census of 2001, because it will be pretty old by now) However, your contention with that quote of mine was not old data, if I recall correctly, but how CGPA of 6.23 is not good enough today. I merely pointed out, that in the late 80s and early 90s, CGPA, if it at all existed, of 6.23 would have been considered not too bad. In fact, I was assessing keeping in mind the old data, while, due to pure oversight, you made an assessment considering it to be current data.
There is so much wrong with this statement, that it would require an entire book on sociology to argue. I will just give you a pointer. We don’t study, merely “to get a job”, although that’s what we are made to believe.
In any case, this is also a shift of goal post. The argument was, how badly they are faring at IITs. Although old data, it does prove, that with a little help they can do well. For me, it is not nearly enough, but not completely unacceptable too. Besides, you are only thinking in terms of MNCs. Govt. has reservation in jobs too.
The line in bold is what is wrong with your understanding of reservation. It is not just “to give a chance to those who remained economically backward because of discrimination”, but to those who remained SOCIO-economically backward because of discrimination.
I asked you one question and you are replying to another.
Anyway, one more time, the reservation system doesn’t seek to do economic upliftment alone. It seeks to bring the backward class on the same social level, as the forward class. So, yes, “getting in a college” does uplift him socially and IIT, most certainly, is not the only college/university in this country, if you have bothered to look around.
Regarding, the economically well off taking advantage of this system, let me ask you one thing. We are a population of 100 crores plus. Our tax base is merely of few Lakhs. Does that mean we should scrap our tax regime, because majority of the people are getting away with, not paying taxes. Should we measure a system for its successes or should we measure it by, how some are twisting it for their own interest.
Forget IITs for the time being. Consider this:
In 1991, the literacy rates among SC males and females in the rural areas, were, 46% and 19.5%. In 2001, the corresponding rates were, 53.7% and 37.6%. Increase of 7.8 and 18.1 percent points, respectively. Among non-SC/ST males and females, in 1991, in rural areas, the literacy rates were, 63.4% and 35.4%. In 2001, the corresponding rates were, 74.3% and 50.2%. That is an increase of 10.9 and 14.8 percent points, respectively. The interesting points that come out of this is:
1. SC females in 2001 were marginally ahead of what the non-SC/ST females were in 1991. Roughly speaking, they are about 10 years behind their non-SC/ST counterparts.
2. SC males in 2001 were still lagging behind what the non-SC/ST males were in 1991, by at least 9.7% points. They are lagging even miserably.
3. The rate of literacy among SC females is greater than that of non-SC/ST females, which means, that they will catch up with their non-SC/ST counterparts, eventually
4. The rate of literacy among SC males is far less than that of non-SC/ST males. This means, that the gap, instead of closing is still increasing.
We have a long long way to go. And we are talking of Mercedes riding dalits. Give us a break.
And stop starting your comments with "Do you think...". It is precisely because I think, what I think, that I have turned pro-reservation, from being a die hard anti-reservation.
I am sure, you are aware, how the IITs bungle on the cut-off marks.
Lets see this myth of cut-off marks. Now suppose, to repeat an example given by another poster, the cut-off marks is, say 50% for a general category student, while it is say, 40% for a backward community student. Now suppose, a student secures 49.9%. What happens to him ? If he is a backward community student, he gets admission anyway. But if he is a general community student, he doesn’t.
But how much of the general category student’s prospects of getting admission been hampered by the “vile” reservation system. Nothing at all, actually. His prospect is neither improved, by the absence of the reservation system, since he will continue to be below the cut-off marks in spite of the absence of the reservation system, nor is it deteriorated, by the presence of the reservation system, for the same reason of being below the cut-off marks. This general category student is not “denied” an admission because he is a general category student, but because he has secured something lower than the cut-off. The backward community student, getting admission in spite of scoring same, or perhaps below the general category student, doesn’t actually effect the prospects of this general category student.
Since state policy is not dependent on jealousy (“Oh he secured less and yet got admission, and I couldn’t…boo hoo hoo), it is therefore an irrelevant argument.
I think I have already replied to that. Beside, why are you making tangential arguments.
From finding irony in one egalitarian function of the govt, to a purely defensive stance on another egalitarian function of the govt. Only difference is that the later one, directly concerns and benefits you. How convenient.
How many can afford Mercedes in the first place, let alone the backward communities. Like everyone else, you are basing your arguments on exceptions. How wise is that. You don’t chop your head off to cure your headache. We have a system of below poverty level (BPL) card, so that these really needy people can get some benefit of the state machinery. But you will see that a chunk of these BPL cardholders are no where close to being below poverty level. So how do we deal with it. Completely abolish the system, and deny those who were genuinely benefiting from this system or do we try to plug the loophole, and keep the system alive.
Some extra facilities to the backward community and here you are, pissed. And someone was saying that discrimination doesn’t exist. What about the discrimination that exists in our psyche, that we have so lovingly reared for generations. If govt. makes the facilities of IIT available to us at a fraction of a cost, it is just what the doctor prescribed. But if the same govt. makes the facilities available to another segment of our population, systematically discriminated and dominated for generations, in a different manner, it is something of a nuisance.
Do not forget, what is sauce for goose is sauce for gander as well.
Anyway, if you are gaining, then why are you complaining. And if you don’t care, why are you still arguing.
Some are definitely taking advantage of the system. I am not denying that. But again, how many are they in numbers. If anything, they are pretty miniscule.
AGREE COMPLETELY. Especially the part about the revolt
Again this is a veryvalid view point, and yeah reservation upto high school is fine. Past that it is the student's responsibility to show through MERIT that he is on par with the rest of the students.
BUT
This is INDIA. Our ideals and legislations are VERY poorly implemented and applied. Many people abuse this reservation system.
I had a frind who was financially sound, but still had a certificate to '2A' category under reservation. And when asked what this category was for, he replied, "Economically Backward" !!!!!. Now this is possible only if he had a fake one made. Or the system is so terribly loopholed that he was elegible under that category. Eitherways the damage was done. This is why and how reservation does more damage than good.
And MOST IMPORTANTLY!!:
I finished one year of study in a Electronics and Communication, a top brach in a "top" (sarcastic quotes) engineering college here is bangalore (PESIT which i call PESHIT). There were many students who had got in through reservation. And most of them had ranks lesser than mine.
These people are not even remotely interested in engg. they are doing it plainly to get a degree and a well paying job. That is it. Only for their personal benefit. Worse still, barring 2 or 3 of them, most of them did not need any financial aid either.
And also, chew on this. Two of these students who came through reservation had ranks in 6000s in the Entrance Test. The range of the GM students getting admitted in this branch in this college is 84-230. ARE THEY NOT MUCH MUCH BEHIND the meritorious students??? And they absolutely struggled the past year to even get average marks. One could even venture to say that they stole that seat from a much much more deserving student.
One unassailable point is that the reservation system does more bad than good especially because of the unethical practices of the people who comprise of the system.
MetalheadGautham
AFK
^^I have to agree on that one.
People getting less than my AIEEE marks have got seats in NITs in top branches because of reservation while I'm getting next to nothing.
The whole system is flawed by design.
People getting less than my AIEEE marks have got seats in NITs in top branches because of reservation while I'm getting next to nothing.
The whole system is flawed by design.
karnivore
in your face..
You couldn't make it, because someone, in the category that you belong to, was better than you. Swallow your pride and work hard. While you are at it, quit blaming others.
and...
Please show me a system that is perfect with capital P, with no one taking undue advantage of it.
"Joto dosh shob Nondo Ghosh"
Sorry for the late reply to this post
Actually the crux of this debate, as i have observed, is not 'Reservation System - Should it exist?'
but
'Reservation System in professional colleges - Should it exist?'
'Cause i have not heard of reservation in Schools (atleast in private ones). And if it does exist in Govt. schools and pre-universities by all means let it exist, i dont think any of us have a problem with that; plainly because our standards are not that low.
So now if the topic is whether Reservation System in professional colleges - Should exist?, then your point is absolutely incontextual here. A candidate is considered literate once 2nd PUC/ 12th standard is cleared.
Then, WHY do we have reservation in professional colleges?? Shouldn't we rather be having it in schools?
Well, most admissions are based on rankings, which is basically a relative system of evaluation and not on absolute scores on tests. Here arises the problem. I think it is clear how reservation causes problems in the rankings system.
Here is my argument against the 'cut-off marks'. You just asked someone in a previous post to work hard. Why dont you say the same to the SC/St student?? Is he not capable of hard work because he is from a "backward" community??. And if you say he is at a disadvantage somehow that prevents from getting marks, please tell me how, i think i have a solution.
Also let us look at this fundamentally and objectively from the point of view of the Institution, have they not receieved a student of lower calibre?
And ALSO, if it wasn't for the reserved seats, maybe the cut-off would be lesser, maybe 47% for GM(all) students. Now how can you say that the reservation doesn't affect the General Merit students in any way??
I know many people have suggested the abolishment of this sytem, BUT they have suggested it in the favour of a Finacial Aid system as a replacement. So I ask you the question now, isn't the Financial Aid system better and far less flawed.??
How can you even think of saying both are good legislations? The former is flawed and latter is even more flawed. I'll be glad to explain how and why if you want me to. (dont want to make this post too long).
I doubt that they are miniscule, in my experience at the least, majority of these poeple are taking advantage of the system. (Please refer to my previous post).
Now, on the flipsyde listen to this example.
My friend Rakesh secured the 11th rank in Common Entrance Test-Medical, Karnataka. He in fact had a category certificate! Now, this guy is'nt from a well off family. Regardless, he has through hard work and individual effort reached the pinnacle of success in this test. And proudly taken a seat under General Merit in Bangalore Medical College, the most prestiguous college (unfortunately) in Karnataka.
Compare this example of the fried whose example I had given in my previous post.
Ironic that both these students are in the same college.
Actually the crux of this debate, as i have observed, is not 'Reservation System - Should it exist?'
but
'Reservation System in professional colleges - Should it exist?'
'Cause i have not heard of reservation in Schools (atleast in private ones). And if it does exist in Govt. schools and pre-universities by all means let it exist, i dont think any of us have a problem with that; plainly because our standards are not that low.
So now if the topic is whether Reservation System in professional colleges - Should exist?, then your point is absolutely incontextual here. A candidate is considered literate once 2nd PUC/ 12th standard is cleared.
Then, WHY do we have reservation in professional colleges?? Shouldn't we rather be having it in schools?
Well, most admissions are based on rankings, which is basically a relative system of evaluation and not on absolute scores on tests. Here arises the problem. I think it is clear how reservation causes problems in the rankings system.
Here is my argument against the 'cut-off marks'. You just asked someone in a previous post to work hard. Why dont you say the same to the SC/St student?? Is he not capable of hard work because he is from a "backward" community??. And if you say he is at a disadvantage somehow that prevents from getting marks, please tell me how, i think i have a solution.
Also let us look at this fundamentally and objectively from the point of view of the Institution, have they not receieved a student of lower calibre?
And ALSO, if it wasn't for the reserved seats, maybe the cut-off would be lesser, maybe 47% for GM(all) students. Now how can you say that the reservation doesn't affect the General Merit students in any way??
I know many people have suggested the abolishment of this sytem, BUT they have suggested it in the favour of a Finacial Aid system as a replacement. So I ask you the question now, isn't the Financial Aid system better and far less flawed.??
How can you even think of saying both are good legislations? The former is flawed and latter is even more flawed. I'll be glad to explain how and why if you want me to. (dont want to make this post too long).
I doubt that they are miniscule, in my experience at the least, majority of these poeple are taking advantage of the system. (Please refer to my previous post).
Now, on the flipsyde listen to this example.
My friend Rakesh secured the 11th rank in Common Entrance Test-Medical, Karnataka. He in fact had a category certificate! Now, this guy is'nt from a well off family. Regardless, he has through hard work and individual effort reached the pinnacle of success in this test. And proudly taken a seat under General Merit in Bangalore Medical College, the most prestiguous college (unfortunately) in Karnataka.
Compare this example of the fried whose example I had given in my previous post.
Ironic that both these students are in the same college.
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karnivore
in your face..
NahSoR
I have more or less discussed the points that you have raised. You will find these, HERE and HERE.
But some comments need separate attention:
You will be surprised that, most SC/ST students work harder that there general category students. The question was never whether they could work hard or not, but whether they were getting equal opportunities. In Tamil Nadu, the SCs have proved that if they are given an opportunity they can actually outdo their general category students, within a span of just 2 generations.
In any case, I would love to hear your solution.
I have more or less discussed the points that you have raised. You will find these, HERE and HERE.
But some comments need separate attention:
Actually, there is no crux. Everybody has his own axe to grind. Here a lot of people think that reservation should exist only in school (because, apparently it doesn’t effect them directly, and thank you for coming clean). While few others think that it should be abolished completely. I stated data on literacy on the whole issue of reservation.
So ?????
Find me an SC/ST/OBC student who is blaming someone else for his failure, I will say the same to him/her.
You will be surprised that, most SC/ST students work harder that there general category students. The question was never whether they could work hard or not, but whether they were getting equal opportunities. In Tamil Nadu, the SCs have proved that if they are given an opportunity they can actually outdo their general category students, within a span of just 2 generations.
In any case, I would love to hear your solution.
First define “low caliber”. Second, the most obvious one, so fukcing what ?
47% as opposed to 50%, as in the example ? Strange. Suddenly those “General Merit students” are quite acceptable now. Oh I get it. When it comes to general category, merit can take a back seat. How convenient.
It is neither. It simply serves a different purpose than the caste based reservation system.
Please explain this. Only after that I can reply.
State policy doesn’t depend upon Mr Tom, Mr Dick and Mr Harry’s individual personal experiences.
@karnivore
I left this thread because you just weren't listening.In every post I was saying that this system is misused MOST of the times and in every other reply u were saying that every system can be misused SOMEtimes.I obviously didn't have the time or the patience to explain the difference between SOME and MOST to anyone who is not a 5 year old.
But now i see a very interesting point raised by u and i feel compelled to poke my nose back in this thread..
Now this is the most irresponsible reply in this thread.
Picture this: Suppose you are having some heart trouble and have to undergo a bypass surgery.You come to know that the doctor who is performing the surgery is a just out of the college young fella who had flunked thrice during his medical studies.
What will be your reaction? Still "SO FUKCING WHAT?"?
When someone passes out from a premier institute, it is assumed that he has become the master of his field.But to make the masters of their fields, these institutes demand a certain quality in the students.By forcing these institutes to take the students of lower caliber we are downgrading the final product of these institutes.
Doctors, Engineers etc are the professionals on whom millions of lives are depending.We just cant jeopardize millions of lives to defend a system which is having not more than 50% efficiency.Can we?
Rest all has already been said.
I left this thread because you just weren't listening.In every post I was saying that this system is misused MOST of the times and in every other reply u were saying that every system can be misused SOMEtimes.I obviously didn't have the time or the patience to explain the difference between SOME and MOST to anyone who is not a 5 year old.
But now i see a very interesting point raised by u and i feel compelled to poke my nose back in this thread..
Now this is the most irresponsible reply in this thread.
Picture this: Suppose you are having some heart trouble and have to undergo a bypass surgery.You come to know that the doctor who is performing the surgery is a just out of the college young fella who had flunked thrice during his medical studies.
What will be your reaction? Still "SO FUKCING WHAT?"?
When someone passes out from a premier institute, it is assumed that he has become the master of his field.But to make the masters of their fields, these institutes demand a certain quality in the students.By forcing these institutes to take the students of lower caliber we are downgrading the final product of these institutes.
Doctors, Engineers etc are the professionals on whom millions of lives are depending.We just cant jeopardize millions of lives to defend a system which is having not more than 50% efficiency.Can we?
There might not be a Perfect system.But what makes you so certain that no system can be better than the existing one?
Rest all has already been said.
karnivore
in your face..
So that’s what it is now. Charitably using “MOST” and “SOME”.
Lets see now. I have some experience in taxation (Income tax, Central Excise and Sales Tax). I can assure you that the word “MOST” doesn’t even come close to describing how the loopholes are abused. I am not talking of illegal advantages, but all legal dealing. Same is the case with Criminal Law – actually every single law. Maybe someday, when you graduate and step into the real world, you will see, what I get to see day in day out.
Anyway. Why don’t you back up your assertion, that reservation is abused by MOST, with some statistics. By statistics, I don’t mean what you have heard from your friend’s cousin’s uncle’s friend’s sister’s husband’s cousin. I am all ears for your data.
That is a non-argument. Actually a typical strawman argument. Reservation doesn’t require an institute to lower, its education standards, or lower its passing norms for the backward community. Reservation works and stops at admission. From there on, its all the same for all the students. The students getting into a college through the quota system will have to go through the same rigors of the education standard, set by the institute. So a student, graduating from an institute is expected to be equal to all the other students, in respect of training and imparting of knowledge.
Regarding that doctor in your example, the very fact that he is a fresh graduate, is enough for me to run from the operation theatre, even if he is a topper. If a doctor who has flunked thrice but has 30 years of experience and reputation behind him, I will indeed say, “SO FUKCING WHAT” ?
But since you have mentioned of medical students, I hope you know that AIIMS has a reservation in post-graduate studies, for its inhouse students. Which means an inhouse student can score less than an outsider, and yet do his post-graduation from AIIMS. Here is something to chew on:
“The HC had found that "AIIMS students, who had secured as low as 14% or 19% or 22% in the (all-India) entrance examination got admission to PG courses while SC or ST candidates could not secure admission in their 15% or 7% quota in PG courses, in spite of having obtained marks far higher than the in-house candidates of the institute." HC had analysed admission data over five years.”
I guess you are still feeling safe. After all they are all general quota students. In medicine, and even in engineering, it is not at all uncommon for students to flunk in the term papers. They don’t have the system of supplementary paper not for nothing.
The problem is, you and others are basing your arguments purely on individual experiences, which, if put in the larger scheme of things, become insignificant. You have Govt. sponsored data, in the form of Mondal Commission, Census, National Sample Survey etc. You have numerous private researches. Why don’t you quote some data from these, instead of punching in the vacuum.
Let me quote myself only. From post #70
“Reservation based on caste is needed, and will continue to be needed till a substantial portion of the BCs get represented in the society. What constitutes substantial, can be debated at length – on the basis of percentage of BCs in total population, or below poverty level, or living in rural areas or some other combination. I am open to the idea of scrapping the current mechanism. But whatever mechanism takes its place, it must give caste its due prominence.”
I have never argued, that no “no system can be better than the existing one”. Another strawman.
karnivore
in your face..
OTOH, i did reply to the part that i felt, made any sense. I didn't reply to the other parts, because, it was gibberish, and then you said...You are not the only one who felt like talking to himself. My last post #95 still remains untouched and points dodged in every manner.
Did you forget, that this page hasn't yet flipped and this post is for everyone to seeI think we should stop as it seems you have taken some kind of oath to dodge all my points and hop from one example to another and repeat and make me repeat everything again and again! This time I'm not asking you to quote my post #95. I guess your precious time is being wasted and then, this topic has seriously started to boooooore me to death.
+ I think the TRP of this thread has gone down.
hpotter606
Journeyman
@karnivore
1. I have read all your posts but still cant understand which colleges have denied admission to SC/ST students on the basis of their cast. Please explain further.
2. My best friend (who is SC), is from a small village from Bihar. He is also poor but somehow manages to pay his fees for VIT, Pune. He doesnt have a caste certificate, so cant use reservation system. If all you say is true, how did he get the admission in one of the top colleges of Pune? He has been my friend for 6 years now and i assure i have have enough knowledge about how things work in a remote village of Bihar.
3. The purpose of reservation is to uplift the socio-economically backward dalits and not just economically backward. What crimes have the non SC/ST/OBC economically backward people have committed so that they don't deserve reservation? You say that crimes were commited by people of open category for 2000 years. Are those people still alive? How can you punish people who are not alive anymore. I have never descriminated on the basis of cast and all of my good friends ( i mean ALL) are from backward class, then why do i get punished? Isnt it unfair?
Please provide some logical arguments which are lacking in your previous posts. Please make your posts clear and concise.
1. I have read all your posts but still cant understand which colleges have denied admission to SC/ST students on the basis of their cast. Please explain further.
2. My best friend (who is SC), is from a small village from Bihar. He is also poor but somehow manages to pay his fees for VIT, Pune. He doesnt have a caste certificate, so cant use reservation system. If all you say is true, how did he get the admission in one of the top colleges of Pune? He has been my friend for 6 years now and i assure i have have enough knowledge about how things work in a remote village of Bihar.
3. The purpose of reservation is to uplift the socio-economically backward dalits and not just economically backward. What crimes have the non SC/ST/OBC economically backward people have committed so that they don't deserve reservation? You say that crimes were commited by people of open category for 2000 years. Are those people still alive? How can you punish people who are not alive anymore. I have never descriminated on the basis of cast and all of my good friends ( i mean ALL) are from backward class, then why do i get punished? Isnt it unfair?
Please provide some logical arguments which are lacking in your previous posts. Please make your posts clear and concise.
karnivore
in your face..
Post #70
Post #79
Post #93
It the above posts don't clarify my position, then I don't think anything else would do. There is nothing more for me to add.
However, in order to understand the nuances of positive discrimination, you have to first get rid of this typical elitist mindset that you are displaying.
While you are at it, quit playing the victim.
MetalheadGautham
AFK
@karnivore:
What makes you think that ONLY SC/ST/OBC students are capable of scoring more marks than other students in professional education when admitted with lesser marks in entrance examinations ? Don't you think the same applies to a HUGE number of general merit students too ? I have friends who were placed into low grade institutions in K-CET, but they score way way more in the common VTU semester examinations than most of their Peers in respectable colleges who got in only because they were an SC/ST/OBC.
What makes you think that ONLY SC/ST/OBC students are capable of scoring more marks than other students in professional education when admitted with lesser marks in entrance examinations ? Don't you think the same applies to a HUGE number of general merit students too ? I have friends who were placed into low grade institutions in K-CET, but they score way way more in the common VTU semester examinations than most of their Peers in respectable colleges who got in only because they were an SC/ST/OBC.
vamsi_krishna
Human Spambot
^ you are dragging yourself into dirt,MHG. Once you got into the dirt, either you have to give up or you have to type hundreds of lines.
The truth is you've already made your way into dirt. Get ready for any one of above.
The truth is you've already made your way into dirt. Get ready for any one of above.
MetalheadGautham
AFK
LOL I was away from this thread since I had to type loads of lines.
This is saturday. Tomorrow is sunday. I've got weekends off. So yeah, I don't mind explaining stuff in detail anymore.
vamsi_krishna
Human Spambot
^ poor gautham... are you thinking that you can escape within two days. See the starting and ending of the mediator and karnivors fighting. It will take days..
Anyway, all the best.
Anyway, all the best.
hpotter606
Journeyman
Elitist mindset???
I am asking simple logical questions and you are again dodging them. As I have already mentioned that i have read all your posts, but still I have these doubts. Isn't that simple enough? How will i stop being the victim by you telling me to quit playing the victim? That doesn't change the reality.
Once again i am asking this and hoping for a direct answer...
Which college has ever denied admission to a person based on his/her cast?
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