Debates about the Economy, Politics, Religion, and everything under the sun

[whitestar_999]

@Raaabo,i take debates to be of varying degree of nature(from light to serious nature) & my stand regarding necessary qualifications to backup claims made is mostly for serious ones.in a light atmosphere debate sure one can question Einstein theories but then he/she has to be corrected by giving a correct & full link to theory suggesting to first read it fully & then come back(at which point most will simply retreat) & the few who do come back a quick glance at their arguments will reveal whether they genuinely misunderstood something(try your best to explain in layman terms) or just trying to be over-smart(no way other than ignoring) & that would be the end of it.

now some debates drift toward a more serious nature & current one is a good example of this.now here i stand by what i said earlier.you are right about collective wisdom often coming from arguments but it is based on the assumption that arguments themselves are of high quality which again requires a certain level of proficiency on the part of those debating in such a manner.

in the end i would like to ask your views about a certain hypothetical situation & would appreciate your reply:
you are the head of a TV channel & invite a few world renowned scholars to debate with some extremists from a particular religion on a highly publicised live show.during the show situation got tense & extremists became extremely vocal & their nature of arguments became inflammatory & passion arousing.some persons asked you to stop/cancel the show as there is a risk of clashes in certain areas because of the broadcasting of such views.
question:would you consider the request to cancel the show because you think you have a responsibility towards the society as a whole because of your position as a TV channel head or would you decline the request stating that your job is only to provide a public platform & it is a free for all debate & everyone has the freedom of speech even if their arguments are not rational,misleading & inflammatory in nature?

i am asking this question only to you because you are the only one here with proven real life authority & thus associated responsibility by virtue of your position as editor of one of the biggest technological indian magazine.you have the power to do any modification as you deem suitable here & the credentials to back it up yet you haven't done anything.i am not saying to delete posts or warn members but even something as trivial as an added bold lettered disclaimer at the end of some posts stating your decision to ignore anything said above with some suggested links to study would be a nice touch.i won't mind if this happens to my posts too as i would rather see some authoritative behaviour from someone like you rather than seeing you engaging in a fruitless debate.if someone has the authority then it is not just for show but is meant to be used otherwise it is no better than no authority at all.

 

[rhitwick]

@Rhitwick - You may call me whatever you like. But somehow, your posts sound to me a like a long lost bro who is angry at me because I did not invite him to my birthday party!

“I'm for truth, no matter who tells it. I'm for justice, no matter who it is for or against. I'm a human being, first and foremost, and as such I'm for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” -Malcom X.

And, my addition to this quote "I'm for truth no matter how many birthday parties I stay uninvited"
b/w I stay right beside the party venue and the music from the party is very exciting and flows to my house too. And, I'm loving that music and dancing on my own to its tune.

On direct note in case you did not get what I'm telling here; you asked questions, I answered, I asked questions and you did not. You 'demand' people to come to your level to understand your logic but you won't do the same when asked.
You ask people to doubt their logics, their teachings and practices but not do the same to you.
What kind of debate is it then if you can't have a open mind.

Practice what you preach man. Doubt yourself too, doubt the teachings of Veda, Upanishada or Gita. For once, for even one full long minute try to imagine what if all you know are wrong. Tell us what you see then?

 

[mediator]

@Raaabo - Again, since you have no interest in the subject, it would be a waste to explain or to repeat. You have judged me throughout your posts ignoring much of what I posted and the questions I put forward only to tell me what Evolution and Big Bang means, their updates, science may progress in the future and overall dodging my questions in your own terms.

I'm not here to force my understanding on anyone, for I'd always want people to question the thought I put in the flow, with an intention of understanding rather than saddism based on lack of interest and conditioning, and instead of superficially telling me what modern science means, just judging Indian science to be "irrelevant, belief system" and then acknowledging they haven't read it much or have 1/1000th of interest compared to mine.

You are free to assume as much as possible if I'm doing it out of some ego, or "know it all attitude". I'm not going to tell you!

I can also judge you to be arrogant, egotistical, misusing your admin rights etc etc. Its very easy. But like I told you before, I'm least interested in personalising.

And again you go back to the big bang which would actually explain something like Brahma’s life cycle,

Are you trying to use modern science to verify the Indian knowledge? The two are different in the context. Again you ignored the linear concept of time provided by modern science and the cyclic nature as per Vedic worldview. The moment you include a shape, a limitedness it is bound to draw curiosity to towards the center of that shape/limitedness/finite. Can the modern science even find out the center of the Universe by the logic of Big-Bang? Moreover, since everything is receding away from each other, where is the absolute frame of reference?

In contrast, brahma is infinite, with no end or beginning (space). Even time and space are a part of brahma and cannot be used to analyze brahma and hence we say Brahma's cycle. Time and space are not something that is applicable on Brahma but reside within! This cycle of brahma cannot be deduced by living in the world of brahma but by transcending beyond.

As for presentiment, there are schools of thought (yes, belief not fact) that suggest that our bodies actually sense changes that our conscious mind does not, and our sub-conscious does, and these send warning signals. There is also enough evidence to suggest that it is often wrong, but we only remember it when it’s right… For example, when you see a dark alley and avoid it because the hairs on your neck stand up and you feel a tingling sensation – even animals have this.

There is a generalization here, a research which has been conducted assuming all people to be the same and totally ignoring the consciousness in its truest meaning. Hence why I asked to read the "Colloquy of Indra and Agastya". One you understand that, half of your problems with undertanding consciousness would be solved.



@Rishi - You may find support to modern science theories from Vedic world view and you may find contradictions as well. Like I said, a poetry is one which encompasses different levels of messages. One which can pass various messages, has a higher style of writing. Therefore, Vedic worldview use words like Saraswati which was a river at the time of author's existence at physical world. The poetry may use mathematics concepts as well to draw a higher reference. Hence, we would have mathematics as well as higher meaning. But, only those who have a higher level of consciousness would understanding the highest meaning of that poetry.

The Britishers came and saw animal killing, distorted the meaning of sacrifice to killing and thought Indians to be worshipping horses, cows etc. Similarly, Samkhya can be drawn out of Veda and so can Advaita, dvaita etc at higher levels.

Vishnu in the context you provided is not the waters, but that which is lying dormant and "sleeping" in the waters of infinity. Hence you'd find Vishnu's idol where Vishnu is sleeping on Anant-Nag over endless waters and from that dormant, which cannot be known by ordinary consciousness, rises the world of brahma!

It doesn't mean Vishnu is better or Brahma, for that very equation is abrahamic in its outlook. It is just an explanation of the higher reality itself.

 

[rhitwick]

Its time!

Time to say 'VANISH'!!!

 

[theterminator]

meanwhile BJP keeps getting hounded by the "communal" tag though Modi's gujarat is free of riots since a decade whereas everybody is seeing what is happening in Uttar pradesh ..muzaffarnagar is only one incident of the many , although smaller in proportion, in just 1.5 years... Yet nobody, especially congress & even the media , is even bothering to associate "communal" tag to SP.

 

[whitestar_999]

^^everybody in UP knows SP is communal & BSP takes no nonsense approach on communalism even if failing on all other fronts.it's just that people here are willing to pay the price by selecting either party when time comes.

 

[Raaabo]

Well said whitestar. And yes, I can see the point you made earlier, however, I have faith in human intellect. Those with a true understanding will understand who has what aim with their posts. The ones who don't understand might never, and the ones who are communal will remain so. The idea is to give the few open minded people something additional to think about, as the close minded shall remain so. It's also evolutionary, and although we can be sad about not seeing an end to close mindedness in our lifetime, humanity will evolve past this as well, as it has done other setbacks. Just a few hundred or a thousand years more, and all of this will be irrelevant. Thus my usage of that word so often.

 

[whitestar_999]

i appreciate your viewpoint about this & let's hope that you stand correct in future though like you said most probably not in your lifetime.

 

[Hrishi]

In contrast, brahma is infinite, with no end or beginning (space). Even time and space are a part of brahma and cannot be used to analyze brahma and hence we say Brahma's cycle. Time and space are not something that is applicable on Brahma but reside within! This cycle of brahma cannot be deduced by living in the world of brahma but by transcending beyond.


There is a generalization here, a research which has been conducted assuming all people to be the same and totally ignoring the consciousness in its truest meaning. Hence why I asked to read the "Colloquy of Indra and Agastya". One you understand that, half of your problems with undertanding consciousness would be solved.



@Rishi - You may find support to modern science theories from Vedic world view and you may find contradictions as well. Like I said, a poetry is one which encompasses different levels of messages. One which can pass various messages, has a higher style of writing. Therefore, Vedic worldview use words like Saraswati which was a river at the time of author's existence at physical world. The poetry may use mathematics concepts as well to draw a higher reference. Hence, we would have mathematics as well as higher meaning. But, only those who have a higher level of consciousness would understanding the highest meaning of that poetry.

The Britishers came and saw animal killing, distorted the meaning of sacrifice to killing and thought Indians to be worshipping horses, cows etc. Similarly, Samkhya can be drawn out of Veda and so can Advaita, dvaita etc at higher levels.

Vishnu in the context you provided is not the waters, but that which is lying dormant and "sleeping" in the waters of infinity. Hence you'd find Vishnu's idol where Vishnu is sleeping on Anant-Nag over endless waters and from that dormant, which cannot be known by ordinary consciousness, rises the world of brahma!

It doesn't mean Vishnu is better or Brahma, for that very equation is abrahamic in its outlook. It is just an explanation of the higher reality itself.

I never intend to say which is better , I only intend to question that how come the Brahma be infinite if it Born or risen out of something.
As per Rig Ved , Vishnu is considered as the containment/vessel where Brahma prospers and expands.
Whereas Shiva is considered as to be the destroyer of the world created."

But there is no mention that the universe or the world is infinite , if there is something infinity then it's the vessel in which World is born and the number of infinite cycles of creation and destruction.

some Puranas describe a universe that is cyclical or oscillating and infinite in time. The universe is described as a cosmic egg that cycles between expansion and total collapse. It expanded from a concentrated form — a point called a Bindu. The universe, as a living entity, is bound to the perpetual cycle of birth, death, and rebirth.

BTW , if it were not to be understood by a human being , how come this theory was deduced itself ?? Gods came and wrote it ?? Somebody must have thought about it , just like any other human being can think , but only in the higher level of consciousness.

 

[theterminator]

^^everybody in UP knows SP is communal & BSP takes no nonsense approach on communalism even if failing on all other fronts.it's just that people here are willing to pay the price by selecting either party when time comes.

coz they dont have options other than sp, bsp

 

[Anorion]

Swami Vivekanada was an atheist in his early life. Even his being 'atheist" was mostly what you call 'abrahamic' way of questioning. Then something happened and he changed; he became the most renowned person in 'Hindu' dharma and helped spreading the teachings of Veda,Upanishada,Gita in the world. I'm, for a long, time trying to search the reason of that change; every document I get, claims there had been a miracle and he changed. None exactly tells and unfortunately Swamiji himself did not document it anywhere. May be that's the missing link in what could have been the most important evolution in Hindu-dharma.

one of his ideals was Buddha. what he did was not theoretical or spiritual, he put all that stuff into practice.

 

[mediator]

I only intend to question that how come the Brahma be infinite if it Born or risen out of something.

Anyways, Congratulations to all the Modi fans and fanboys for the wave to 'Modi'fy has been initiated!

For those who need a little break from Russel Peters for the weekend can enjoy => *www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jqXeNO2DWDA

Laughter Guaranteed!

 

[Skyh3ck]

What theory worked for Swami Vivekanands transformation towards vedas, may or may not work for others, we all have our capacity of knowledge, how much we can learn, how much we understand, and much much we carry in life ahead......

listen theres always a perfect timing for everything, all gets their share whne the time is right...

i used to go lots of at lots of temple, met many new people, read lots of spiritual books during my school, college days.... but i always felt that its not going in right direction even though i was following world renowed theories of spiritualy..

and lately when i lost all hopes suddenly, it started to make some sense to me,

 

[Hrishi]

Anyways, Congratulations to all the Modi fans and fanboys for the wave to 'Modi'fy has been initiated!

For those who need a little break from Russel Peters for the weekend can enjoy => *www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jqXeNO2DWDA

Laughter Guaranteed!

Not sure what you mean by that emoticon. But if you haven't realized what I meant to say then I simply can't help.
All I questioned was the simple fact mentioned in puranas ,

some Puranas describe a universe that is cyclical or oscillating and infinite in time. The universe is described as a cosmic egg that cycles between expansion and total collapse. It expanded from a concentrated form — a point called a Bindu. The universe, as a living entity, is bound to the perpetual cycle of birth, death, and rebirth.

Infinite things don't Expand or Shrink.If it's infinite then the theory of it expanding from a Bindu is wrong.

 

[Raaabo]

Interesting stuff to ponder over for those of us still with an open mind:

*www.livescience.com/11326-top-10-missing-links.html

And of course the funny Cracked way of saying important stuff:

*www.cracked.com/article_19213_7-animals-that-are-evolving-right-before-our-eyes.html

 

[mediator]

^If you call that 'interesting stuff' then here's 2 cents from me as well => the fertility rate of humans is decreasing, metropolitan boys can't stand in sun for 2 hours and getting bald early, military dogs can sense bombs, crows can play soccer, wolves can howl to make babies sleep etc and just youtube, you'll surely find a lot of interesting stuff.

 

[Raaabo]

Yes and also Youtube for ancient aliens and you will see interpretations of the vedas that suggest everything from them being about alien races breeding man and how they're actually almost exactly like the abrahamic religions just different interpretations, charlie bit my finger and lol cats, what's your point?

 

[rhitwick]

^Erich Von Daniken

 

[Raaabo]

Ah yes I have read all daniken's books - classic example of fiction masquerading as science to garner extra eyeballs.

 

[mediator]

The point is very simple, but still

Mutation and Adaptation -> OK, Growing of limbs, eyes, organs etc in front of our eyes -> assumption; not measureable, verifiable, proven
Red Shift -> OK, Universe concentrated into a concentrated dot -> assumption; not measureable, verifiable or proven
Two guys looking similar -> OK, They are brothers -> Assumption
You are bald, he is bald, we are bald -> OK, everyone is bald -> generalization
Paintings, tools in caves -> OK, cavemen were ignorant -> assumption
Paintings, tools in found in households today also -> OK, cavemen exist today -> ???
Your link -> Talks about adaptation, mutation -> OK, evolution -> define evolution!
Mediator -> 10 kg in gym yesterday, 100 kg tomorrow, evolution -> ? NO, thats simply adaptation
Crow Playing soccer -> Adaptation
Dogs in army -> Adaptation
Dogs Dancing -> Adaptation


Point is pretty simple, only if we could throw the burqa that hides us from the Sun! Now don't give me that superstition that evolution takes much time and hence I asked you to know about E.Coli experiment and new science "research" that evolution happens at faster rate than earlier thought just like we have surprises in the case of "faster expanding universe" and the "mysterious" dark energy to explain it.

Try understanding what mutation and adaptation are. They are a reality indeed. But observing two fossils and using mutation and adaptation as logic to say species evolved or grew limbs, organs etc is simply illogical!