Debates about the Economy, Politics, Religion, and everything under the sun

Who will win 2014 elections

  • Rahul Gandhi (Congress)

    Votes: 8 7.8%
  • Narendra Modi (BJP)

    Votes: 54 52.9%
  • I want Narendra Modi but not BJP

    Votes: 16 15.7%
  • I want Aam Aadmi Party (AAP)

    Votes: 12 11.8%
  • Others

    Votes: 4 3.9%
  • I don't want to vote for any of them

    Votes: 8 7.8%

  • Total voters
    102
  • Poll closed .

Skud

Super Moderator
Staff member
@amjath @Anorion ,never see anything with a narrow point of view for there is nothing in this world for which you can not get a justifiable disapproval.every thing comes with a price.creation & destruction go hand in hand.more people have been killed in car/automobile accidents than in two world wars put together but nobody asks for ban on automobiles.farmers & small scale industries not adapting to modern economic & technological trends are destined for extinction.

& if you think environment has absolute dominance over development rest assured that poverty & other side effects of poor development will kill people faster & more than any natural calamity in near future.


The same theory should apply to large scale industrialists and businessmen also. Govt. should never interfere with so called stimuli, packages etc. to revive dying private corporations/entities and should just let them die natural deaths. But what happens is exactly the opposite. Spicejet comes to mind. Also the environment norms set by the previous Govt. is nowhere as stringent as the existing norms in West. No point weakening them further.

Economic stimuli in form of tax break etc. are okay as long as it benefits the mass, not the individuals. But again that's hardly the case in this country.
 

whitestar_999

Super Moderator
Staff member
[MENTION=1270]Skud[/MENTION],economic stimulus packages are must to break free from cycle of depression,don't confuse them with individual aid packages.read a bit about very successful keynesian economic policy.
World War II and the Triumph of Keynesianism: Newsroom: The Independent Institute

as for spicejet mess again you are wrong.air travel sector in India needs more competition not less & exit of a lcc like spicejet would have seriously affected market dynamics.it was already visible in huge jump in prices of tickets of other airlines.Air India on the other hand does not merit same treatment going by same market dynamics because of its public nature & history unlike spicejet.

As for environment i guess you missed this:
Jayanthi Natarajan sat on 350 files that had clearances - The Times of India
in India problem is not laws but their subjectivity & implementation.also don't compare with west because they can afford the luxury of following "green policies" after single-handedly polluting earth's environment.
 

Skud

Super Moderator
Staff member
@Skud,economic stimulus packages are must to break free from cycle of depression,don't confuse them with individual aid packages.read a bit about very successful keynesian economic policy.
World War II and the Triumph of Keynesianism: Newsroom: The Independent Institute

as for spicejet mess again you are wrong.air travel sector in India needs more competition not less & exit of a lcc like spicejet would have seriously affected market dynamics.it was already visible in huge jump in prices of tickets of other airlines.Air India on the other hand does not merit same treatment going by same market dynamics because of its public nature & history unlike spicejet.

As for environment i guess you missed this:
Jayanthi Natarajan sat on 350 files that had clearances - The Times of India
in India problem is not laws but their subjectivity & implementation.also don't compare with west because they can afford the luxury of following "green policies" after single-handedly polluting earth's environment.


So anything of public nature Govt. doesn't need to support, but it should go out its way to support private entities for the sake of private individuals. Fact is, if ever Air India goes down there will be even greater surge in prices. Same with telecom and other sectors. Because of the presence of public entities, we are still in a position to enjoy cost effective solutions. You better check the history of private banks and insurance cos prior to nationalization to get the picture. Also the rules of competition means the competition itself should take care of winners and losers, and only the fittest will survive at the end. Providing external intervention in itself is detrimental to competition.

And regarding the last part, as you have rightly stated problem is implementation, not the law itself, so changing the law is not exactly the road forward.
 

Anorion

Sith Lord
Staff member
Admin
We do not need to follow the same destructive growth trajectories as industrialized countries.
It is called leap frogging.

And it is for the sake of the trees and tigers themselves, not what effect they have on humans.

still ruminating on [MENTION=52329]tkin[/MENTION]'s post. Maybe these countries grill their people more, there is less apathy and celebration of the "we are like this only" attitude.
 

Skud

Super Moderator
Staff member
And the alternative would be? We are a country of over a billion people and last I checked, the only country with such a large population is china which followed even a more extreme version of the so called Gujrat model and somehow is feeding their people.

We have a huge unemployed workforce and its climbing day by day. Last year over 100,000 unemployed junior engineers had registered themselves with the employment exchange in Tamilnadu alone. Over half of my friends have no job. Over 70% of my juniors have no job. EVERY ONE, from engineers to arts students are fighting for government jobs and bank exams. But these jobs also have a limit.

Everyday I see hundreds of people standing in streets outside our office and handing out leaflets, or asking us to enroll in some credit card program, these people, mostly aged 30 yrs or more are earning less than 10,000 pm, and have to support a family. No disrespect to anyone but what will happen to these people?

We have no remarkable industry in India, we have no oil, no nuclear fuel, no rare earth material(used for electronics). We do not have the expertise like Japanese people to use other countries resources to provide better service. Our workforce is poorly trained. We have no population control system. So, near future, when our population turns 2 billion, what will happen?

So what is the future of India? When our parents are gone, their pensions, savings all are gone, how will this unemployed people feed themselves? Or their family?


May be, just may be, one of the reasons of remaining jobless (not specifying your friends btw) is our attitude to jobs itself, we need a certain level of salary, status, blah, blah, blah to even consider a job instead of just having a means to support oneself.
 

tkin

Back to school!!
May be, just may be, one of the reasons of remaining jobless (not specifying your friends btw) is our attitude to jobs itself, we need a certain level of salary, status, blah, blah, blah to even consider a job instead of just having a means to support oneself.
I'll give another example, what is the minimum wage is US? $6, $8 per hour? What's the minimum wage here? None. There are jobs here, in Kolkata, 5000/- per month for full time software developer. And if they put out advertisement for 10 positions, 1000 will flock at the interview and they are asking for degree engineers only. So if a person had studied in general stream, or diploma, how will they get a job? Last year over 10 lakh people gave banking exams. Wonder how many got selected?

So the question is that these people, earning 5000/- per month, can support themselves because they have a house, and some cash, maybe parents are living with pensions etc. Is it possible to stay alive at 5000/- per month while maintaining a family and infrastructure?

People here do not care about statuses that much, youngsters do that, but a person 30yrs+ age with a family wants to survive, give education to their children, make a good living. They don't care about job status. But they can't very well become a sweeper or a waiter working at a roadside hotel.

So can you suggest some non government jobs for a person, B.A, or B.S.C qualified?
 

whitestar_999

Super Moderator
Staff member
You better check the history of private banks and insurance cos prior to nationalization to get the picture.
no offense to you or anyone else but i really don't like selective facts pieced together as complete truth which coincidentally is the weapon of choice for every religious extremist too.there never was any true private sector in India before 1991 economic reforms unless you count crony & crooked industrialists greasing palms of bureaucrats & politicians of "socialist era".Read about b]"Hindu growth rate".also it is quite funny that you are bringing telecom sector in your argument which is the strongest proof of govt companies inefficiency totally in contrast with pvt sector.I guess you weren't around when people used to throw parties to celebrate their getting of bsnl landline phone after waiting for 2-3 years.Even today Bsnl is holding back the growth of broadband sector in India by refusing to open up its copper wire network even when pvt players are willing to pay for its usage.
Why Internet connections are fastest in South Korea - CNN.com
There is vigorous debate in the telecommunications world about the role "open networks" have in creating fast, cheap Internet connections.
The idea behind an "open" system is essentially that, for a fee, broadband providers must share the cables that carry Internet signals into people's homes.
Companies that build those lines typically oppose this sharing. A number of governments, including South Korea and Japan and several European countries, have experimented with or embraced infrastructure-sharing as a way to get new companies to compete in the broadband market.
The U.S. does not require broadband providers to share their lines, and some experts cite Korea's relative openness as one reason the Internet there is so much faster and cheaper than it is here.
The most important thing is that countries create a way for companies to enter the broadband market without having to pay for huge amounts of infrastructure, said Faris.

just imagine Beam telecom providing services in entire Delhi by spending much less on infrastructure compared to what they spent to create their present limited coverage area.

Also the rules of competition means the competition itself should take care of winners and losers, and only the fittest will survive at the end. Providing external intervention in itself is detrimental to competition.
You forgot about the most important part,the Referee/Umpire without whom no competition can be fair.Govt's interventions are supposed to be of this type in a capitalist economy.Global crisis of 2008 was mostly because of lack of this by US regulators.No matter how good the system is,it doesn't matter if those running it are not.You can not call it as fault of system(for those who like to give 2008 crisis as proof of non-working of capitalist system.

In the end i will just say this:
doing same thing again after 1-2 failures expecting different result 3rd time is courage /conviction.
doing same thing again after dozens of failures expecting different result this time is foolishness.
India tried socialist model for more than 40 years & ended up holding a bowl at IMF's door mortgaging its gold reserves.USSR operated govt companies making everything from cigarettes to fighter jets & it collapsed.China tried same thing & ended up with Mao's Great Famine.Govt should do what it is supposed to do,govern.There is a reason why governance & business are 2 different words in english.Govt should focus on creating a better & efficient police force instead of trying to sell air tickets to women foreigners without warning them about dangers of traveling alone in cabs in delhi & many other cities.
 

Anorion

Sith Lord
Staff member
Admin
ok. Let's say 2020? BJP, by it's own admission, wants to achieve the following:

- Eradication of poverty and unemployment
- Making India a major sports power in the world
- Linking all the rivers of India
- Returning of displaced people to their native places
- Making India a global manufacturing hub
- Replacing petrol with fuel cells
- Bring the USD and INR on par
- Golden Quadrilateral of Bullet Trains!!

At least they are aiming high. Do we have a roadmap? How many of you believe some or all of this is possible?
 

Skud

Super Moderator
Staff member
no offense to you or anyone else but i really don't like selective facts pieced together as complete truth which coincidentally is the weapon of choice for every religious extremist too.there never was any true private sector in India before 1991 economic reforms unless you count crony & crooked industrialists greasing palms of bureaucrats & politicians of "socialist era".Read about b]"Hindu growth rate".

Those are not selective facts, they were rampant and that's why the nationalization happened. And the Tatas and Birlas do exist during socialist era. Think you are right about that crony, crooked part. Oh, here's the latest contribution of the "true private sector':-

Rs 83,000 crore revenue lost on SEZs in 6 years - The Times of India

Tax-free SEZs new havens to stash cash - The Times of India

Land acquired for SEZs sold off, put to other uses: CAG - The Times of India

Probably the biggest scam in this country, and still no noise anywhere.


also it is quite funny that you are bringing telecom sector in your argument which is the strongest proof of govt companies inefficiency totally in contrast with pvt sector.I guess you weren't around when people used to throw parties to celebrate their getting of bsnl landline phone after waiting for 2-3 years.

Well I am too old to miss that. But hey, that's a selective fact and apparently from the socialist era. You don't wait 2-3 years nowadays. Hardly 2-3 days if you follow up. And guess what, Airtel simply refuses to provide connection in my area. Funny part, it does provide services at the other side of the railway line. And I live in a bloody state capital.


Even today Bsnl is holding back the growth of broadband sector in India by refusing to open up its copper wire network even when pvt players are willing to pay for its usage.
Why Internet connections are fastest in South Korea - CNN.com

just imagine Beam telecom providing services in entire Delhi by spending much less on infrastructure compared to what they spent to create their present limited coverage area.


Technicality aside (which I do agree I am not very aware of), the private players would anyway pass the cost to the end user whether the network is shared or their own. At the end of the day, network sharing will only enable the company have higher margins. For the customer, hardly a Rs 100/- change on a Rs 1000+ package, that too if the company is actually willing to pass on some benefit.



You forgot about the most important part,the Referee/Umpire without whom no competition can be fair.Govt's interventions are supposed to be of this type in a capitalist economy.Global crisis of 2008 was mostly because of lack of this by US regulators.No matter how good the system is,it doesn't matter if those running it are not.You can not call it as fault of system(for those who like to give 2008 crisis as proof of non-working of capitalist system.

Agree on that. Govt. should play the referee's role, and ensure free and fair play and should not take sides (like not acquiring land on behalf of pvt cos and such). Also he should use the yellow and red cards properly and ensure no foul play. I am waiting to see how many will be shown red cards in this SEZ scam.

In the end i will just say this:
doing same thing again after 1-2 failures expecting different result 3rd time is courage /conviction.
doing same thing again after dozens of failures expecting different result this time is foolishness.
India tried socialist model for more than 40 years & ended up holding a bowl at IMF's door mortgaging its gold reserves.USSR operated govt companies making everything from cigarettes to fighter jets & it collapsed.China tried same thing & ended up with Mao's Great Famine.Govt should do what it is supposed to do,govern.There is a reason why governance & business are 2 different words in english.Govt should focus on creating a better & efficient police force instead of trying to sell air tickets to women foreigners without warning them about dangers of traveling alone in cabs in delhi & many other cities.


Your true private sector is "working" for the past 24 years and its a similar disaster. As I have already mentioned (and as everybody knows), Govt. was forced to do business because those who should do it was not doing it properly. Creating better governance will actually hit the margins of your true private sector harder. Guess no one wants that.
 

whitestar_999

Super Moderator
Staff member
I can write an essay about benefits of privatization but what's the point(& another on why SEZ concept failed only in India while being successful everywhere else,reason being govt half baked policies).It is like this:"Those who believe no proof is necessary,those who don't no evidence is sufficient".Thankfully those in power understand this as unlike you or me they actually know the complete situation instead of relying on news media & personal experiences.

btw again don't take it otherwise but you tried to counter contributions of pvt sector to India's telecom sector by this:
You don't wait 2-3 years nowadays. Hardly 2-3 days if you follow up. And guess what, Airtel simply refuses to provide connection in my area. Funny part, it does provide services at the other side of the railway line. And I live in a bloody state capital.

& to world famous economic events like India's 1991 economic crisis,USSR's collapse & Mao's great famine by this:
Your true private sector is "working" for the past 24 years and its a similar disaster

A friendly advice,to put up a good argument do some research.You could have given some arguments based on work of Amartya Sen & Joseph Stiglitz(search for his articles in The Hindu newspaper,quite informative) & i would have countered with arguments based on work of Jagdish Bhagwati.
 

Skud

Super Moderator
Staff member
I can write an essay about benefits of privatization but what's the point(& another on why SEZ concept failed only in India while being successful everywhere else,reason being govt half baked policies).It is like this:"Those who believe no proof is necessary,those who don't no evidence is sufficient".Thankfully those in power understand this as unlike you or me they actually know the complete situation instead of relying on news media & personal experiences.

btw again don't take it otherwise but you tried to counter contributions of pvt sector to India's telecom sector by this:


& to world famous economic events like India's 1991 economic crisis,USSR's collapse & Mao's great famine by this:


A friendly advice,to put up a good argument do some research.You could have given some arguments based on work of Amartya Sen & Joseph Stiglitz(search for his articles in The Hindu newspaper,quite informative) & i would have countered with arguments based on work of Jagdish Bhagwati.


You are trying to theorize everything overlooking the ground realities and cold facts and blaming everything of Govt & bureaucracy and turning a complete blind eye on the pvt sector. I leave it at that. Thankfully, unlike anyone else the electorate actually know better, we will see who was right 4 years later.
 

GhorMaanas

The Vagrant Seeker

reminded me of Mr. Parrikar (but there're perhaps no photos of him going to buy milk & vegetables).
is the above album from pre-poll times (although album-creation date is of today)? because apart from the OB vans and the media crew, security personnel are not to be seen. IMO Mr. Kejriwal should take some security for his daily stroll as well.

P.S. - okay saw 2 cops on a motorbike and perhaps some AAP workers following him and his family in one of the latter images.
 

isaac12345

Journeyman
Would just like to add that one should not believe economists at face value whether its amartya sen or the local college professor. The discipline is in such bad state that there isn't even consensus on how banks lend money, let alone the fact that the nobel prize in economics is a 'fake' one(something the Nobel family is actually pissed off about - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Memorial_Prize_in_Economic_Sciences#Controversies_and_criticisms) . Another example being that they dont even consider the laws of thermodynamics when modelling or considering economies. So it essentially ends up as perpetual motion machines!

BE VERY VERY CAREFUL AND SKEPTICAL WHEN IT COMES TO ECONOMICS. Throughout history they have mostly been the priests that justifies the divine position of the kings
 

Anorion

Sith Lord
Staff member
Admin
This is from Parzania.
Language used is funny. And NSFW.
want a thesis?
I will give you a ****ing thesis. I will give you a thesis about Gandhi, a man who was able to unite the Hindus and Muslims for the cause of freedom and equality until some **** for brains, right wing, hindu thought the world would be a better place if you put a bullet through the man's stomach. Then a few idiot muslims set off some bombs in Bombay in the early 90s and a new party plays it for all it's worth to get into power. And this party features many of the same types of superstar players as the pricks that wanted Gandhi dead. But now, they were able to use a private group called the parishad, which is India's own version of the KKK, to convince the Hindu population that they have been repressed by the Muslims all along, even though Muslims make up less than 14% of the population, and most of them are poor as **** anyway. The Parishad, just like some of those idiot southern *******s with their burning crosses, loved to pretend that theology supports their political agendas as if it is God's will to be an *******. We don't need to take care of the people, we need to control them, and if using god to make them hate each other works, then so be it.
This was no backlash. And people are starting to figure it out. They act as if this was a natural reaction at godhra.
But you tell me, how you could mobilize a hundred thousand citizens with swords and trishuls and pipe bombs within twenty four hours. How did the men have all the voter's lists? So, they knew exactly where all the Muslims lived. Why were the names of every Muslim businessman run in the newspaper with their addresses not long before? Why were flags distributed systematically to all of the Hindu owned businesses before Godhra had even occured?
I'll tell you why.
This riot, wasn't a riot. It was a planned act of genocide.
**** this. We're gonna fight these mother****ers.
 

Skud

Super Moderator
Staff member
Same old right wing Hindu population (the whole of, including Kashmiri Pandits) and a few idiot, poor Muslims, never gets boring. :p
 
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