Debates about the Economy, Politics, Religion, and everything under the sun

[snap]

Please stop posting quran verses. A single Arabic word has lots of meaning. Arabic is one of the oldest language. A transliteration of quran gives single meaning which can mean many things.
Ps: I'm not going to debate on the verses.

+1 to this

 

[Raaabo]

Agreed, but then doesn't almost every religion claim to have the answer to everlasting life in heaven, or have the only path to enlightenment, or similar such words.

How's "the spiritual debate" sound as a name for the new thread that the off topic posts in this thread can be moved to? If everyone's in agreement with that mods can do it, or I will do it later when near a PC

 

[rishitells]

@raaabo

I think a 'fight club' is for accepting the challenge and debating, answering the counter viewpoints, instead of telling anyone to wait for enlightenment. @mediator has faced every question and debated no matter what everyone thinks of him, but you apparently do not seem to answer any of the questions raised by @mediator, but trying to avoid them by repeatedly tagging them as 'communal', and again generalizing everything like 'All religions teach peace'. Everyone has his own set of beliefs/perceptions, no one can be completely right, but one does not have the right to demean anyone's perception, even it is 'communal' according to him.

Rather, the right approach will be to answer with an open mind, without conditioning. What's the problem if someone is posting Quran verses or quoting 'ancient texts'? This is debate isn't it?

As for moving, I think posts can be moved to Science vs God section.

 

[mediator]

@Raabo -

You are whining in a very predictable pattern

1. First jump in without reading the existing and time others have dedicated for the discussion. Thus insulting them very directly!

2. Post with generalizations and solid assumptions with plethora of herd mentality behind the conscious poured down to the sub-conscious

3. If others don't agree, start personalising and do the drama of "you are this and that"

4. If that doesn't work out, start talking of standards and "low levels" and hitting below the belt and whatever it takes to run away from the dicussion.


Again some eye-openers for you

1. I don't hate Quran, I simply and strongly disagree with it. I don't hate muslims at all!
2. I question those tagged as Hindus themselves and their mentality on the cast system, Sati, Dowry, Gotra, Animal killing etc, in the same manner I'm questioning the verses of Quran. In the former, I'm questioning a mentality (and acts of people) which is not based on Scriptures or the highest truth/consciousness (from which Scriptures have risen). For the latter, I'm questioning an entire doctrine. Will you now call me as anti-hindu and anti-Islam at the same time? Pro-India, Anti-India at the same time?

Try to grow up from these taggings and looking people from narrowed filters of conditionings, religion, theism, atheism etc from which you have not detached so far. Try to free your mind and unlearn. I'm simply questioning and posting with references to show how the "ancient scriptures" which you call it as, say the same thing and for that matter scientists associate Indian science with quantum mechanics for material science percieves everything in material domain even consciousness, but quantums debunk that and argue that everything is a dance of energy, even matter where Upanishads etc take it one level higher that everything is adance of consciousness even energy and hence an order in this seemingly chaotic world, an order which has been termed as Ritam at large (Universal dharm) .

Read post #178 again missed by you -> *www.thinkdigit.com/forum/fight-club/177085-indian-economy-going-down-6.html#post2000983

Please state your real name, state, occupation, place of work before making volatile statements. Everything I say, I say as me, as someone who people here know, and can get in touch with in person.

Is that even relevant? There is voice behind your voice which speaks before your speak, a thought before you comprehended on it, a voice within which guides often. What is the state of that, real name, state, occupation, place of work?

Try to understand the essence of what has been said rather than "who" is saying it. Do you really see the qualifications, birth place, gender, real name etc of the authors whose books you read? Did you do that when you read Enid Blyton, Secret Seven, Panchatantra or other books when you were young?


You can tag me as you like. I don't care! But read as much as possible and get rid of that funny pattern of yours which analyzes life based on some sordid generalizations like

- All politicians are the same
- All holy books are same, promote fear and control
- etc etc

Disconnect the evil Internet, turn off electricity and go live under the peepal tree and wait for enlightenment.

Again ignorance at its best. I can say the same as well, why don't you disconnect the internet which is based on a science which is further based on the science of consciousness which you have termed as a "belief system"? Enlightenment is not something you wait for!

I told you to read about the history of Tesla and here you are making jokes.

Agreed, but then doesn't almost every religion claim to have the answer to everlasting life in heaven, or have the only path to enlightenment, or similar such words.

Like I stated, Refer page 265, the chapter on "The Colloquy of Indra and Agastya" from "Secret of Veda by Aurobindo".

*www.sriaurobindoashram.org/ashram/sriauro/downloadpdf.php?id=30‎

Like all the people are not the same in terms of metabolism rate, skin type, hair texture, thinking pattern, thoughts etc, similarly you cannot prescribe one gym advice to all the gymmers. Who can give the best advice according to your own body and understanding? Who will give the approval as what weight you should lift? Who will optimize and who will allow to proceed?

 

[Raaabo]

Of course, but I have no desire to debate when on the road and on from a phone. All I said was since the debate about the economy is long forgotten here, let's move the discussion to a new thread. I am in no way finished with the discussion, but I do have other things happening in my life as well that require more immediate attention, that's all. Let this thread get back on track, and we will start a new one for specifically the debate at hand. Since googling seems too hard for people and posting links seems to be the only way to make a point here, I will wait till at a pc with everyone's permission lol.

As for my enlightenment comment, I think calling me an idiot because I like technology and find more answers to life in that reeks of desperation especially when posted on a technology forum. If one is so against the new horrible technologies, why use them? It's a valid argument. If you were diagnosed with cancer, why go for allopathic treatment, why not do what the seers suggest. As you adopt new ways forward in life, things change, and for a reason. Either accept life as it is now or shun it, why be hypocritical? It was a valid question, and besides, he's not going to take any if my suggestions anyway, so why worry?

 

[amjath]

-

"..And whosoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will be never be accepted of him and in the hereafter he will be one of the losers.." (V3:85)

The verse explains about the hereafter (after apocalypse). It means the followers of Islam will make themselves to heaven (winners) and the non followers will never make it to heaven(losers). Those verses are meant for followers of Islam to fear about their afterlife because I follow them. If u don't follow Islam then why do u even care about it.

There are verses saying respect other religion even our prophet Muhammed says it. But haters are blind and don't see these things.

 

[Raaabo]

@mediator you live in a country of varied beliefs, and discussion is one thing, but your posts have the tendency to insult entire religions. You're the one generalising, not me, I never said all politicians are bad, but I said enough of them have proven themselves to be bad to warrant the feeling that a lot of the people of this country have that "sab chor hain". I did say that all political parties are bad, and I stand by that. Purely because if you look at the notorious characters at the local level involved on politics, purely based in their selfish aims, you will see this.

I said you appear to be against certain religions and trying to spark trouble, you called me ignorant. Figure out what's more personal. As for NCERT or whatever, I'm a self taught college dropout, so technically I am "ignorant" but I am not closed minded. It's always the most close minded that call others names. I say what I say out loud, to everyone I meet, in public, and accept my fate. I live my life by my ideals, but I see you as a closet hater of differences too scared to say things in public. I may be very wrong, of course, everyone is wrong many times, but I am just pointing out that this is a public forum. Say what you want here, so long as you use the same tact and tone as you would in a room full of people. Or else it's cowardice and taking potshots from a hiding place. If you wouldn't post the exact same words on your Facebook page, where everyone knows who you are, then don't do it here. This forum is also a society of real people, and will not be allowed to be used for anonymous spewing of hatred. I have nothing for or against you, but I expect a little sensitivity and decency.

 

[rhitwick]

/offtopic but I can't but wait to post. I beg pardon to mods and admins prior to this for not banning me for being offtopic here

I mean, what if, MEDIATOR declares himself as the GOD we all were doubting here. He just refused to state his name qualification but doubted if raaabo is qualified enough to talk with him.
He also claims the voice matters nor the person. So he has every chance of being GOD or or or even BATMAN!

*31.media.tumblr.com/d51e09735ee5c57dc5eaa85124e07e2b/tumblr_ms1ysqwpSv1rg2j3ko1_500.jpg

ah too much offtopic. Again don't ban me YET

 

[rishitells]

Religion? Hmm...

Let me put forward something very crucial. There is some criteria of being a religion, and according to me, that is-

1. A 'single' Holy Book, which lays the rules or guidance for the subscribing people. For Islam, that is Quran. For Christianity, that is Bible.

2. A prophet which comes to earth for 'enlightening' ignorant human beings and guides them to a new path, i.e. a path to enlightenment according to him. Like Mohammad, Jesus etc.

3. Name of religion clearly stated in their Holy Book. Islam is the name of religion which is prescribed in Quran. Christianity is the name of religion which is prescribed in Bible.

4. Worship philosophy i.e. in which manner the God will be worshiped, like Namaz, prayer in Church etc.

5. Uniform belief system. All the people of religion subscribe to the same set of beliefs laid by their Holy Book. There may be communities withing religion like Shia and Sunni, but their difference is political and not religious.

Now let me examine that the so called 'Hinduism' against the above points that is it actually a religion or just a term coined by ignorant people-

1. No single Holy Book or Rule Book. Some will say Vedas, but keep in mind that Vedas are actually not books, but Shruti i.e. a realization in the higher stages of consciousness. That means that any person in the higher stages of consciousness can realize Veda, or Truth. Moreover, there is 'Nowhere' in the Veda the term 'Hindu' or 'Hinduism', as there is 'No Religion' to which the Vedas subscribe to. They are independent books. The same applies for Upanishads, Gita etc.

2. No concept of prophets. There have been Rishis like Patanjali, Bhardwaja, saint like Adi Shankaracharya, but no one has claimed to be the 'Original Son of God' or a prophet. There was even an atheist saint like Bhaskaracharya, who propounded the philosophy of Charvaka, i.e. Materialist philosophy.

3. No name of any religion such as Hindu, Hinduism, or Hindutva in any of the Books, even in Epics like Ramayana, Mahabharata etc.

4. No uniform worship philosophy such as monotheism, polytheism etc. There have been many groups in India following their own worship system.

5. No uniform belief system. Many systems of philosophies, sciences, art paired together.

So there is no question of a 'Religion of India', though unfortunately many ignorant people have adopted the term religion in Indian context, and therefore, giving rise to a confused state of mind and cultural confusion, inferiority etc. Today if a teacher tells the story of Ramayana in a 'secular' school students, it will be considered 'communal'. Such is the poison being injected in the children's minds, and making them believe that their culture is of no use, by bashing Indian Philosophy in the name of religion.

What is the problem if the native culture and books are taught to Kids? Recently there was an incident where a teacher was expelled from a 'secular' schools because he was reciting Saraswati Vandana in the morning prayer after the Jesus prayer. The reason given was 'indiscipline'..! Such a crude, intolerant and illiterate behavior..! What is this if not utter hate and poisonous belief?

Many Islamic groups in India have the problem singing 'Vande Matram', the song by singing which many patriot nationalists (both Hindu and Muslim) died for Independence. When the Madhya Pradesh CM Shivraj Singh Chauhan wanted to make a world record of 'Surya Namaskar Practice' with the help of school kids, again there was a political rage! What does this mean? And what's next? Stop practicing Yoga because it belongs to the so called Hinduism? Stop using Ayurvedic medicines because they are 'communal'?? What a crap being thrown into innocent minds. Sigh..!

 

[whitestar_999]

@Raaabo,i have read some posts by @mediator regarding science & at the risk of sounding boastful(having cleared some of the toughest engineering & general exams in India) i can assure you that you can safely ignore any scientific portion of @mediator's posts(which btw includes velocity greater than light,intelligent design,dark energy & whatnot).as for religious portion this statement pretty much sums it:
for those who believe no proof is necessary,for those who don't no evidence is sufficient

 

[mediator]

Please stop posting quran verses. A single Arabic word has lots of meaning. Arabic is one of the oldest language. A transliteration of quran gives single meaning which can mean many things.
Ps: I'm not going to debate on the verses.

Like I stated before, go to the madrassas and show this broadmindedness to the clerics. Tell them Allah and Mohammad can mean anything and then see what happens to you. I have often debated this to Muslims and all of them, yes all of them have to say one thing - "Vedas also promote killing of animals, cows etc" and the arguments on the lines of Zaki Naik.

Hence Quranic discussion remains ignored and a dependency created on me to first expain them the metaphors and the riddles, where the usual answer is a "hmmmm......hmmmmmm....hmmmmm".

Let me tell, a high level poetry is one which encompasses different understandings. Thus, in one poetry where a Sun dawns and guides the herds (pashus) from one level can mean the external i.e physical Sun dawning where animals are guided by his rays (sleep, waking up, metabolism etc) and from other it could be internal, a visualization where the awakening starts not by your ego-will, but self-surrender to the higher the higher where detachment and unlearning play a major role and hence with the awakening the knowledge starts spreading which keeps on increasing.


@Raaabo -

If one is so against the new horrible technologies, why use them? It's a valid argument.

Your argument is as absurd as a statement like "If you disagree with your own Surya, Indra, Agni etc then why are you even living? Perhaps you should commit suidice"


Here's anotehr eye-opener for you -
Those who promote the science of consciousness are not against "technologies".

But yes, in the absence of Ayurveda (Sanskrit and Ayurveda were banned by British FYI), there is not much prevalence of it. But yes, Sanskrit is slowly and steadily growing and so is Ayurveda and for your knowledge I prefer natural diet as much as possible. Ayurveda does not distinguish between food and medicine. Here food itself is treated as medicine and vice versa! You can take Tulsi, Brahmi, Ashwagandha, mix it with honey and hot milk and perhaps almonds every day. You can have "adrak chai" which helps during cold. But, you cannot live on allopathic medicine all your life can you?

I'm not starting Allopathy Vs Ayurveda here, but again before you make wild assumptions, I don't hate allopathy. Just because one upholds Indian science doesn't mean he is anti-non-Indian stuff. Like I stated, and continue to request you need to have serious makeover of your thinking patterns!

So I disagree, the quoted part of your argument is only invalid but childishly absurd!

And please stop making excuses of debating from road, phone, engrossed in other works etc. Either you dicuss or you don't. Take your time, nobody forced you to debate. But if you do, read what I have asked to read for half of the "links", that you argue, are my own posts only! Many other links are for references and if I flood it here, you might take days to read it!


@Whitestar - You seem to ignore what Fight CLub means. Even if you see some "boast" in my post, then also your argument is void and remains absurd! You should stay out of Fight Club.

 

[Raaabo]

@mediator I make no excuses to you, merely informed the others asking me to reply to have some patience. Again, I have nothing against your "consciousness" but you seem to have something against everyone else's. I could sit and waste my time quoting each statement you make, find a link to discredit it, and then go on and on and on in a pointless arguments with you, but I know a closed mind when I see one. I have never said anything against anyone's belief, but yes I have criticised your tone and arrogance, and the sheer disregard for any other belief. I have no problems with you revealing who you really are, and then saying what you want, but legally I am required to remove and ban anonymous rants from unknown persons against religions. Put simply, either reveal your identity, or control your emotions.

For those who preach tolerance, I have been chided for arguing with christian priests, and also complaints were also made against me when digit bundled the Sita sings the blues cartoon. Incidentally those were "Hindus" who were pissed, and I immediately apologised publicly, but of course they have posted some things online about me being "Christian", when nothing is further from the truth.

Sadly I have to also account for legal repercussions, so if you really want to stand by what you say, do so, otherwise your comments are not your own and are just anonymous. Sadly, I will have to delete your account and posts if you continue this way, and I don't want to.

Now I shall get back to my life for the time being, and hope that you understand what I am saying, because I really am looking forward to debating you on many topics.

 

[mediator]

@Raaabo -

I have never said anything against anyone's belief, but yes I have criticised your tone and arrogance, and the sheer disregard for any other belief.

If you think discussing and disagreeing is equal to putting down everyone, then again you need to revamp your holistic thinking and again you generalized! But anyways, how come you saw "tone and arrogance" of my post without even hearing my voice, or perhaps that was also a part of your conditioning that those who disagree with you, then hit them below the belt by "criticizing on everything else like percieved tone and arrogance except the essence of the discussion"?

Sadly, I will have to delete your account and posts if you continue this way, and I don't want to.

As if you didn't do that (banned) some 3-4 hrs back!

I forgot Raaaaoism is the religion followed here, created by the one who is against religion and criticizing the highest of science just because someone attached an "ism" to it and then whoever upholds it and disagree, talk about the percieved tone and arrogance.


Do as you wish or whatever makes you happy, after all this forum is yours! But here's a peace of suggestion since you are an expert in giving others the same - Administration is not done by sentiments, generalizations, whinings, excuses, hitting below the belts, talking big and then unable to back yourself. But by simple common sense!

You have not only distorted the entire science of consciousness but also made unimaginable surmises and then calling it belief, irrelevant, good quotes only etc and then giving gyaan on hypocrisy! Whose the hypocrite?

Can you even prove that you exist -> *www.thinkdigit.com/forum/fight-club/177085-indian-economy-going-down-6.html#post2000983 ?

Here's an update on your pattern

1. First jump in without reading the existing and time others have dedicated for the discussion. Thus insulting them very directly!

2. Post with generalizations and solid assumptions with plethora of herd mentality behind the conscious poured down to the sub-conscious

3. If others don't agree, start personalising and do the drama of "you are this and that"

4. If that doesn't work out, start talking of standards and "low levels" and hitting below the belt and whatever it takes to run away from the dicussion.

5. If that doesn't work percieve tone and arrogance and criticize it.

6. If that also doesn't work, ignore everything and threaten them with a ban!

Like I said, do as you wish!

 

[Raaabo]

Indian Economy Going down

Ah good, yes a tirade against me is totally permitted, as I shall never complain to any authorities. You have my word on that.

Please keep it that way, even if you insist on remaining anonymous, just don't do it against religions and beliefs please.

Also don't bring a funny post on my site into this, if you cannot understand humour then you will no doubt mistake Raaaboism for a religion. Though Google certainly seems to rate me highest for "sane religion" - no kidding!

 

[mediator]

@Raaabo - You'll always find humour, provocations (for the sake of being in Fight Club), facts, logic etc all mixed up in my posts here except for personalizations which I try to keep it to bare minimum. Anyways, I'm bored with this "You are this and You are that", You Vs Me debate and a tirade against you is indeed very much boring.

 

[CommanderShawnzer]

So much OT........

 

[BombayBoy]

@mediator
Reading the last few pages, you put in considerable efforts to put forth your views. You appear to be a very well read person.

Don't you think that the world over when it comes to religion, people have a blind faith?

 

[Faun]

The verse explains about the hereafter (after apocalypse). It means the followers of Islam will make themselves to heaven (winners) and the non followers will never make it to heaven(losers). Those verses are meant for followers of Islam to fear about their afterlife because I follow them. If u don't follow Islam then why do u even care about it.

There are verses saying respect other religion even our prophet Muhammed says it. But haters are blind and don't see these things.

I won't go into the details but there are verses which were told in Mecca and then another verses in Medina. Earlier verses got abrogated in case a newer verse stands in contradiction. So whatever said earlier gets nullified later

 

[mediator]

@BombayBoy - Religion is indeed synonymous with blind faith. Some are attached to one God and hence theist. Some attached to multiple -> polytheist. Some are busy denying a god and yet worshipping materialism, money, status, name, fame and busy calling themselves as atheist. Some worship the American Dream where social status, money, independent living and high dreams is all that matters to them, even when they have money, unable to give time to their parents when they need them the most. Some are busy upholding the unmanifest (spiritualists) and condescending on the materialists and some are busy upholding materialism denying a higher purpose. There are too many tags here, too many filters, too many frameworks created by limited thinking and not letting go. Only if one frees himself of these taggings and mental limitations and starts questioning everything with a purpose of understanding the essence rather than condescending with saddism as the intent behind, then he is bound to go higher moving beyond the words, senses and the mind.

For that matter I hate being tagged either as religious, theist or atheist or spiritualist or a materialist. Yes I have been called all of it!

Blind faith exists for those who cannot question but many people have reduced a higher experience as blind faith as well! e.g an experience of your body and understanding of what it tells you, an upgrade that you can lift more in the gym today is an experience which has been approved by your own mind after thorough practice which is totally subjective to you and you only. But an emotional impusle to do the same is not! We need to know as to what exactly this blind faith is.

 

[Raaabo]

Indian Economy Going down

@mediator, I just want clarity of thought, and when I get time to shift this debate to another thread with an appropriate title, it will make more sense and be easier to follow for everyone, myself included. Have I read every word you wrote, no, on a phone with 5 pt font with the long posts made here and links to so many sites and other threads and posts, I cannot. However, I am able to tell when things are getting out of control and a heated debate is hurting sentiments of a community. Fight club to fight each other, sure, but we should try and keep it civil as well, and not be reduced to calling people ignorant, or entire religions evil tribes or whatever.

Personally I love debates, because they always teach me more points of view, regardless of whether I agree with said points of view or not. I just want to ask for one last clarifying point, do you believe in ANY religion? And yes, Hinduism is a religion, of many gods, and worshiping idols and the Ganga, etc.

Since I really haven't been around much to follow all of your posts in various threads, I'd like to ask you to describe your beliefs or lack of them so as to get a better understanding on where you're coming from.

For example, I am somewhere between agnostic and atheist, anti-superstition, and science minded, needing proof of at least mathematics and logic before I believe in something. While many religions claim to explain everything, I choose to believe that we are still learning, and it is only science - which in a sense is a "belief" that has the most unanswered questions - that is the true path to understanding the universe and ourselves. I also feel it takes guts to be scientifically minded, because we know we will certainly die NOT knowing all the answers, unlike those of other beliefs.

Again, I would be very happy to debate your and my personal beliefs, on a personal level, and everyone is welcome to add their own views to that - however lets stick to why we believe what we do, rather than just ridiculing major religions or belief systems. Does that sound fair to everyone?