OP
theserpent
Firecracker to the moon
There are so many rumors in the net that say 9/11 Was a inside job.
Some times I feel it might be true
Was that post to me?
Debates about the Economy, Politics, Religion, and everything under the sun
- Thread starter theserpent
- Start date
There are so many rumors in the net that say 9/11 Was a inside job.
Some times I feel it might be true
Was that post to me?
they are just rumors nothing else.for those who don't know 9/11 was simply a 2nd try:
1993 World Trade Center bombing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
P.S.@serpent,that was for @theterminator.
1993 World Trade Center bombing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
P.S.@serpent,that was for @theterminator.
Hrishi
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I am not much of a Sanskrit manuscript reader. Though I would love to read and understand them all. Thousands of years of collective knowledge.!!!!!!!
Religion is not flawed. Its how you interpret and follow it.
Problem occurs when people try to prove how the religion they follow or believe in , is superior and flawless .
Religion is something one should choose for themselves. Majority of people connect religion entirely with god almighty. In my belief religion existed because people need certain values and ethics to lead life.
Those who don't believe in god should redefine the meaning of God. I am not going to debate in this context but I am quite sure that the meaning of God and religion are highly misunderstood these days. They aren't followed in the way so as to serve their purpose.
If you feel my understanding is improper please enlighten me.
Religion is not flawed. Its how you interpret and follow it.
Problem occurs when people try to prove how the religion they follow or believe in , is superior and flawless .
Religion is something one should choose for themselves. Majority of people connect religion entirely with god almighty. In my belief religion existed because people need certain values and ethics to lead life.
Those who don't believe in god should redefine the meaning of God. I am not going to debate in this context but I am quite sure that the meaning of God and religion are highly misunderstood these days. They aren't followed in the way so as to serve their purpose.
If you feel my understanding is improper please enlighten me.
I am not much of a Sanskrit manuscript reader. Though I would love to read and understand them all. Thousands of years of collective knowledge.!!!!!!!
Religion is not flawed. Its how you interpret and follow it.
Problem occurs when people try to prove how the religion they follow or believe in , is superior and flawless .
Religion is something one should choose for themselves. Majority of people connect religion entirely with god almighty. In my belief religion existed because people need certain values and ethics to lead life.
Those who don't believe in god should redefine the meaning of God. I am not going to debate in this context but I am quite sure that the meaning of God and religion are highly misunderstood these days. They aren't followed in the way so as to serve their purpose.
If you feel my understanding is improper please enlighten me.
Well said. For me, it doesn't matter what you believe, so long as you are good, harm no one, help those in need and are willing to learn more points of view. Whether you pray, meditate, introspect, do scientific tests, or not, and whether you do it at home in a mosque, church, temple, etc is irrelevant.
mediator
Technomancer
Firstly, I don't "believe" for believing is done by unscientific minds. There is a difference between "knowing" and "believing". Sun rises from the east is knowing. Its not a belief. Knowing your own body and its ability after a devoted listening can tell whether you can lift heavier weight today or not. Its not a belief. Similarly, there is a science of consciousness where "knowing" comes into the picture.Raaabo said:
Secondly, I don't claim science of consciousness to be the "best", but totally scientific and "higher" than modern science. The context here of "higher" is not to demean the modern science but simply to present that which is beyond materialism, there is an experience which enables the material world to exist, an experience beyond the limitations of the mind and the senses. Just like senses are "higher" than material world and mind higher than the senses, for it is the senses which percieve the material world and mind which control the senses.
Quote one sentence of mine, where I stated it to be the best. Try to read my posts carefully without connecting it to a totally different context. For some Paneer is best, for another Rajma is best. I can create a new fashion out of my limited wardrobe. The context is different!
Then technically you are not an atheist. It seems to me that you do not understand the basic meaning of consciousness.Raaabo said:
Let me brief for you since you took the time to discuss. The entire universe is pervading with consciousness. Imagine an infinite ocean with tides all around. Are those tides different from the ocean? Now lets say that those tides have a sense of "I" as well where one tide think I'm rising higher than the rest. The question - Is it because of the tide that it is rising high or perhaps because of the various churning of the forces within the ocean? If you understand the concept of "infinity", then you'd also know that you cannot analyze infinity. You cannot cut it or multiply. There is no way you can create division here. Now try to experience infinity. If you think you can visualize it, then you are lying or ignorant for infinity cannot be visualized either. You can only experience it by surrendering the mind! So who is basically seeing the different categorizations of the world? Who is percieving the colorless sky to be blue in the morning?
The faculties of the mind have a natural tendencies to create these divisions, an illusion of color out of colourless, name out of nameless, form out of formless, manifest out of unmanifest, finite out of infinite etc. You are being called Raaabo because of the sake of convenience put by your mind as well as others. Is it going to change the true essence of your nature if you are called by any other name? If this is temporary (name,form,finite etc), then how are you suppose to understand the nature of the true reality?
There is no such thing as time, but why do we percieve time? Why do during our dreams, we often lose a perception of time and space?
Raaabo said:
When we talk of the world history we usually ignore the Indian history. Earlier we thought the civilization is 4000 yr old, then 5000 and then 10000 etc.
Watch -> *www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQZFS9Hij0M
With this discovery, it is being said that if India is explored and scientific techniques like dating used, it can change a perception of the entire world's history. Earlier it was said that everyone believed that earth is flat. Wh proposed such a theory? Did Indians "believed" that also? You have mentioned about cavemen, but did they exist in India also? The Indian history speaks of yuga cycles where currently we in Kaliyug of which 5000 yrs have already been spent. Before this, we have see the dvapar yug- 432000x2 yrs, treta yug - 432000x3 years, satyuga - 432000x4 years.
Satyuga is an age which is categorized by men of perfect intellgence, perfect intuition, perfect memory, perfect patience and understanding, perfect body and strength. This deteriorates as yugas deteriorates. Kaliyuga is characterised by men of weak morales, low character, low memory, low intelligence, weak bodies and strength. For this matter, I'm happy that the science of military and warfare has been lost for men in this age cannot control anger or have patience to listen to others and weapons becoming a tool for adharma and evil acts instead of controlling adharma. Before Kaliyug started Veda were passed in oral fashion.
It is similar to case where a newborn babies cell regeneration/division is highest and gradually decreases as he grows old. The memory and intelligence (not experience with the external) are highest when he is young and fades into memory loss when he grows old. This is the reason why is it said that you learn faster when you are young. How can we retain that cell regeneration/division, high memory and intelligence? This is a part of Yoga and Ayurveda! Another example can be the flow of water from the mountain peaks to ocean, where it slowly steadily gets polluted and stagnated. But apart from Yugas, it goes beyond to the cyclic nature of time contrary to the linear nature of time as presented by modern science. This cycle does not mean that the same history will repeat. Again the example of an infinite ocean with tides rising and merging can be applied here.
Yoga (perfection), FYI, is not a physical exercise but a concept. Like I have stated before it is applicable to knowledge, surrender of ego-sense, actions, the various asanas whose aim is to further perfect the mind and body unity! If you do not understand meditation, then the next best example I can give is music. The more perfect the technique is, the better is the vessel to contain the flow. Music, as you might know, is presented the best when it is spontaneous or when you don't think much. It just happens when suddenly a chord strikes your empty head and you let it flow. With the technique or the vesself being perfect, it is manifested into the physical world perfectly. This perfection of technique implies the fingers of guitarist to move without his head working. This is called Yoga or perfection.
If the theory of cavemen is discussed, then they exist today also in remote parts and people even in urban areas to be using primitive tools for cooking, cleaning, fixing etc. Perhaps, the fossils of these tools and cavemen will be found some 10000 yrs in the future where people will be discussing that there was an age where the "religion" of modern science was practiced by the "nomads". Try to move beyond the words to the context I'm presenting here.
Coming back and as I have discussed before, The Indian thought is neither about some religion or god or atheists or theists. It is much beyond these limited and childish taggings, the fancies of an immature mind which people have not graduated from. The Indian thought is neither about the impressions you recieve from the TV shows and serials where the devi-devtas are busy conspiring, marrying and leading a life like that of humans. If you are speaking about secularism, then do understand where, how and why it came into being in Europe.
The Quran speaks about attachment to a name Allah : la ilaha il-alaha, mohammed urrasool allah, whereas the Indian texts speak about nameless : Ekam satviprabahuda vadanti, where the infinite is nameless yet called by various names like brahman, purusha (not purush i.e guy if you think) etc, formless yet manifests into various forms like different waves from the same ocean, where that "ideal ocean" is infinite and its essence, the central binding force, immutable, whereas the waves are finite and mutable some marked with a sense of "I" and some not! To be explicit, I hope you understand the metaphor. Many people I discuss this, esp. atheists, think I'm talking about oceans literally. No wonder, they cannot understand the Indian shrutis.
bhagvad-gita said:
From the lower/limited perspective of modern science it means, matter and energy (various manifestations) are risen from matter and energy, use matter and energy to exist and become matter and energy during their end. e.g A person (made up of matter and energy), is born from matter and energy, uses matter and energy as food and becomes matter and energy after his death.
Can you say that "Allah is the eaten, the eater and the process of eating"? Is yes, then it would make sense as everything in this universe is matter and energy as per modern science and even matter is energy (Refer Quantum Theory).
If you understand any of the above distinctions, then proceed to this for further details : *www.chakranews.com/theism-and-vedas/1540
If you understand that, do read Aurobindo's : The secret of Vedas. It is available freely with pdf format. Trust me, you'll laugh yourself at the average understanding of the Indian philosophies which we see in this thread alone which is not even intellectual in nature, let alone being intelligent! Like Zakir Naik speaks in inferior words : "In Islam everything is "God's" (with an apostrophe s, which gives rise to words like theism and atheism, who is actually Abrahamic and not Indian devi or Devta) where as in Hinduism everything is God" (In Hindi it means divya and divya is not the same as God. These devi-devta are the different powers of the infinite, like air/wind, water, intellect, mind, supermind which are called by terminologies like vayu, varuna, indra, Vishnu etc in the Vedas, Shakti and Shiva in the Tantras, purusha and prakriti in the Gita etc . From divya comes the sanskrit offsprings like deva and even Maya is a devi. There is a similar analogy to the Greek philosophy as well).
Some excerpts from Secret of The Vedas -----
The word go means both cow and light and in a number of passages evidently meant light even while putting forward the image of the cow. This is clear enough
when we have to do with the cows of the sun — the Homeric kine of Helios — and the cows of the Dawn. Psychologically, the physical Light might well be used as a symbol of knowledge and especially of the divine knowledge (Page 43) { i.e cow is the metaphor of light or wisdom/knowledge recieved}
Indra is invoked as the maker of perfect forms to drink the wine of Soma; drinking he becomes full of ecstasy and a “giver of cows” .... A study
s of the Vedic horse led me to the conclusion that go and asva represent the two companion ideas of Light and Energy, Consciousness and Force, which to the Vedic and Vedantic mind were the double or twin aspect of all the activities of existence. (Page 44) { i.e mind is illumined when by the sheer amount of knowledge, the eternal bliss, the truth and thus "giver of cows" by which we can act objectively and wisely }
Agni for the ordinary worshipper may have meant simply the god of the Vedic fire, or it may have meant the principle of Heat and Light in physical Nature, or to the most ignorant it may have meant simply a superhuman personage, one of the many “givers of wealth”, satisfiers of human desire. How suggest to those capable of a deeper conception the psychological functions of the God? The word itself fulfilled that service. For Agni meant the Strong, it meant the Bright, or even Force, Brilliance. So it could easily recall to the initiated, wherever it occurred, the idea of the illumined Energy which builds up the worlds and which exalts man to the Highest, the doer of the great work, the Purohit of the human sacrifice. (Page 56) { i.e Agni is the will power, the force which is one the first devtas who is invoked by Indra i.e mind/itelligence. Obviously this is true in any case. If you want to learn guitar, your mind will automatically increase focus. }
This wine of Soma represents, as we have abundant proof in the Veda and especially in the ninth book, a collection of more than a hundred hymns addressed to the deity Soma, the intoxication of the Ananda, the divine delight of being, inflowing upon the mind from the supramental consciousness through the Ritam or Truth. If we accept these interpretations, we can easily translate the hymn into its psychological significance. (Page 74) { i.e The awakening as experienced by the mind, metaphorically written in the form of drinking of soma by Indra. }
What can these rivers be whose wave is full of Soma wine, full of the ghrta, full of urj, the energy? What are these waters that flow to the goal of the gods’ movement, that establish for man the supreme good?....Obviously these are the waters of the Truth and the Bliss that flow from the supreme ocean. These rivers flow not upon earth, but in heaven; they are prevented by Vritra the Besieger, the Coverer from flowing down upon the earth-consciousness in which we mortals live till Indra, the god-mind, smites the Coverer with his flashing lightnings and cuts out a passage on the summits of that earth-consciousness down which they can flow. Such is the only rational, coherent and sensible explanation of the thought and language of the Vedic sages. (Page 113)
This matter of the lost herds is only part of a whole system of connected symbols and images. They are recovered by the sacrifice and the fiery god Agni is the flame, the power and the priest of the sacrifice; — by the Word, and Brihaspati is the father of the Word, the Maruts its singers or Brahmas, brahmano marutah, Saraswati its inspiration; — by the Wine, and Soma is the god of the Wine and the Ashwins its seekers, finders, givers, drinkers. The herds are the herds of Light and the Light comes
by the Dawn and by the Sun of whom Pushan is a form. Finally, Indra is the head of all these gods, lord of the light, king of the luminous heaven called Swar, — he is, we say, the luminous or divine Mind; into him all the gods enter and take part in his unveiling of the hidden light. We see therefore that there is a perfect appropriateness in the attribution of one and the same victory to these different deities and in Madhuchchhandas’ image of the gods entering into Indra for the stroke against Vala. Nothing has been done at random or in obedience to a confused fluidity of ideas. The Veda is perfect and beautiful in its coherence and its unity. (Page 144)
Vedas : Mind is the chief controller of all the senses, of the breaths in the Human being (inhale, exhale, life breath etc) which we see as "devraj Indra". It is the mind which is always wavering with positive and negative thoughts and yields to the self for the guidance which we see as "Swargaloka always wavering and being attacked by Demons and presided over by devtas and Indra running to Vishnu for guidance".
Shiva and Shakti : Where Shakti is the individual jiva (when perceived at human level) always trying to achieve the state of perfect knowledge i.e Shiva which we see in serials loosely as Shakti always trying to seek Shiva and how consciousness continues seeking even after death e.g Sati to Parvati where the desires are part of the nature of the body, but one has to control over those desires or detach from those desires. This Shiva is residing on the top of Mount Kailash which is metaphor of the human body itself and the super-mind, the top of Kailash which is beyond all the dualities of life, where space and time cease to exist, where past, present, future all become one, which are nothing more than the division created or perceived by the mind only.
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Some quotes from Aurobindo's : Kena and other Upanishads's
If God is everywhere, He must be in the food we eat. Not only is God the eaten, but He is the eater and eventually, says the Vedanta, when you come to the bottom fact of existence there is neither eaten or eater, but all is God. (Sri Aurobindo, Kena and Other Upanishads, Page 166)
What is the use of avoiding the word “God” and speaking always of the Supreme as “It” simply because the Sanscrit usually, — but not, be it observed, invariably — employs the neuter gender? The neuter in Sanscrit applies not only to what is inanimate but to what is beyond such terms as animate and inanimate, not only to what is below gender but to what is above gender. In English this is not the case. The use of “It” may therefore lead to far more serious misconceptions than to use the term “God” & the pronoun “He”. (Sri Aurobindo, Kena and Other Upanishads, Page 169)
“Now the Mind in dream revelleth in the glory of his imaginings. All that it hath seen it seemeth to see over again, and of all that it hath heard it repeateth the hearing; yea, all that it hath felt and thought and known in many lands and in various regions, these it liveth over again in its dreaming. What it hath seen and what it hath not seen, what it hath heard and what it hath not heard, what it hath known and what it hath not known, what is and what is not, all, all it seeth; for the Mind is the Universe.
But when he is overwhelmed with light, then Mind, the God, dreameth no longer; then in this body he hath felicity.
(Prashna Upanishad, translated by Sri Aurobindo, Pg 186 of Kena and Other Upanishads)
Therefore as all these flowing rivers move towards the sea, but when they reach the sea they are lost in it and name and form break away from them and all is called only the sea, so all the sixteen members of the silent witnessing Spirit move towards the Being, and when they have attained the Being they are lost in Him and name and form break away from them and all is called only the Being; then is He without members and immortal. Whereof this is the Scripture.
(Prashna Upanishad, translated by Sri Aurobindo, Pg 191 of Kena and Other Upanishads) { i.e the waves merging back into the nameless ocean }
Sat, Chit and Ananda are in this Highest, but He is neither Sat, Chit nor Ananda nor any combination of these. He is All and yet He is neti, neti, He is One and yet He is many. He is Parabrahman and He is Parameswara. He is Male and He is Female. He is Tat and He is Sa. This is the Higher than the Highest. He is the Purusha, the Being in whose image the world and all the Jivas are made, who pervades all and underlies all the workings of Prakriti as its reality and self. It is this Purusha that Aswalayana seeks. (Page 289, Sri Aurobindo, Kena and other Upanishads)
it is in another passage stated to have two sides, obverse & reverse, Vidya and Avidya, Science and Nescience. Nescience eternally tends to envelop Science,
Science eternally tends to displace Nescience. Avidya or Nescience is Parabrahman’s power of creating illusions or images, things which seem but are not in themselves; Vidya or Science is His power of shaking off His own imaginations and returning upon His real and eternal Self. The action and reaction of these
two great Energies doing work upon each other is the secret of Universal activity. (Page 378, KOU) { Essentially talking about Purusha and Prakriti and Maya as one of the powers or forms of Prakriti }
Like I stated, the Indian thought is neither the Vedic rituals you see these days nor the presentation of Indian TV shows. It is neither some reduction into childish terminologies like theists, atheists, religion etc.
@Raaabo - The Sun rays take some 8 minutes to reach earth. It simply means that the rays which reach you had left the Sun some 8 minutes in the past. It further means that you are simply viewing the Sun 8 minutes in the past! When you talk to a friend, you are viewing him some nano-seconds (or even lesser) in the past. Entire infrastructure of your body and its individual components follow an order and the reality of Ritam (Universal dharma) . The individual organs understand their own dharma and limitations and work accordingly, so do the celestial bodies, an order within the chaos, where the entire template of your body changes every nanoseconds chemically (billions of atoms inhaled, exhaled, perspired, excretion, drinking, urinating etc), physically (very slow for senses to register), mentally (emotion,wisdom,thoughts, intelligence, analysis etc)! Thus with all these subtle reasonings you are always percieving the external world in the past!
If you think Indian science is "a belief system" with a reasoning that it is archaic and irrelevant, then so has the modern science become a subject of past now the moment you open a science book and read it. Such a "belief" that Indian science is a belief system because it is archaic is only self-destructive!
Coming back, Why do I still see an order in this extremely chaotic template of yours? Your senses are the ones which analze the external. The mind is the one which analyzes the message passed on by the senses. On whose direction is the mind working? You buy a car, but the thought originated in the past for it (2 days back or 20 years back) before it materializes in the physical world. What all factors were responsible for such a thought - 'buying a car'? From no where a thought might come about your loved ones and you immediately ring them up. It could be random and it could be a result of various forces of nature external as well as internal acting upon you to accumulate into a thought and then your body, a vessel acts to carry that thought forward? Is it really you who are "doing", or your whole life happens to be dance around different thoughts either random, borrowed or accumulated?
Now just like flame does not have a definite shape and the perception of its form keeps on changing (flame reducing, increasing, distorting, flickering etc), similarly how can we say that the shape of Sun is "circular"? With its huge flames coming and going, can we even say that the sun has a definite shape? Moreover, does the Sun exist only in the perception of its flames? Its heat can be felt all over to the Earth and beyond. So my question - Is the Sun limited to its flames only or to its heat beyond as well? Once you understand that and move beyond names, forms, shapes etc, you'd understand that the "essence" of the Sun encompasses the entire Solar System.
Similar is the nature of the supreme consciousness which resides within but distorted by its own lower natures and polluted at the level of material consciousness/lowest where the world becomes "asat" (it does not mean false, but illusory in the sense of being impermanent or dynamic) where the sat, the static, the permanent, the real can be achieved and known with the faculties of Yoga! Hence Sagun to Nirgun, the union of Shakti with Shiva. You may read chapter 7 of Bhagvad-Gita on this.
Meditative experiences are personal indeed and hence I gave the analogy of gym and body types (skin, hari texture ,metabolism, habits etc), but the steps remain the same, a journey from "I" to surrender of "I" and merging with the absolute. It is totally different from the experience of a drug addict. Meditation increases mind control, it is based on detachment from material desires in its holistic meaning as attachment shall remain a burden in the initial process of emptying the mind. Whereas, addiction to drugs as based on attachment to material desires/drugs which destroys mind control and brain cells where the lowest perception is further reducd to smithereens giving even a lower false perception/"feeling" .Raaabo said:
You took it literally. What I really requested is that you need to discuss only if you have any genuine interest. There are mods in the forum who have quoted some distorted verses of Gita and then claiming on the top of that distortion, that Gita present offending verses. The basic steps or a genuine research would simply seek - Who said the verse and what is the meaning of the verse, Gathering the complete verse as the first step and then verify it from 2-3 different sources as well, if one is ignorant of Sanskrit. You won't really understand anything if you do not have a genuine interest. Just like all the knowledge of technology (or guitar or gymming) will come to if you have a genuine interest, similar the higher science will come to you as well if you have genuine interest.Raaabo said:
The whole universe will conspire to make it happen, if you really genuinely want it. Ofcourse you have to act upon it naturally!
This inturn related to the chapter on "The Colloquy of Indra and Agastya" from "Secret of Veda by Aurobindo" (Refer page 265) that I request you to read.Upanishad said:
Online copy -> *www.sriaurobindoashram.org/ashram/sriauro/downloadpdf.php?id=30
There is no point in discussing Quran, if you "personally" do not want to discuss it and then use your admin rights to implement the same. Quran is a doctrine. Had it been just another person who had destroyed an unused temple or by Govt procedures, I wouldn't mind. But like I said, research yourself on the history of Iran, Afganistan, Bangladesh, pakistan etc were all places of creativity and now most of their creativity is destroyed! The Doctrine is simple i.e to spread Islam. This includes killing of infidels, people tagged as Jews and Christian, violating women prisoners with an attchment to something called judgement day. You really need to read Quran, I have given you authentic sources with tanslations of three prominent translators and not just another link to some anti-Islamic site. And hence for this reason I had called you ignorant of ground reality. I apologize if it sounds offending. The same pattern exists with the growing number of muslims in France, Britain, US etc. Again, I'm not against people tagged as muslims here but a doctrine that is driving them to demand sharia, behead soldiers (British Royal Guard) for what happened in Afghanistan, Syria, death to US even though US provides large number of jobs to them.Raaabo said:
*www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/
I'm not interested in who ridicules the video of Zakir Naik (Ahmaddiya that you pointed out) but simply in discussing Quran, Allah and Mohammed.
This is something I love about him. He is arrogant for the anti-nationals, but loving for his own people. It is a characteristic a leader needs to have. One who seeks truth is often termed as cold and arrogant. It doesn't mean he has perfectly sought the truth before you raise fingers. I would prefer an arrogant leader who administers well anyday over a robot who seldom speaks, or doesn't know what to speak, take orders from others all the time and when speaks, speaks without any motivation where you have to raise the volume of the TV or concentrate all your energy to your ears to listen him well.Raaabo said:
Griffith, Bloomsfield, Maxmuller were christian missionaries who did major damage to the Indian texts and distorted them (mistranslated) too much. You are bound to get bored. Similarly, stay away from Prabhupad's translations if you don't know Sanskrit.Raaabo said:
I would recommend you => *www.bhagavad-gita.org/
Read it in your own frame of understanding first without seeing the commentaries. If you can understand high level English, then I would recommend you Aurobindo's translations!
Evolution will tear this discussion completely. Lets save it for some other time. Like I said, read the God Vs Science debate, I have discussed there in full length and you may find my questions and reasons there only.
Very well said!dead5 said:
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rishitells
Always in Dreams...
See, for all those debating on Islamic faith- No matter how many groups are there in Islam, or what philosophy they follow, there is a ‘common ground’ for all of them, uniform belief system, laid by Quran, certain beliefs which cannot be questioned, and the Sharia law. Instead of translation of Verses, I would like to go into the essence. So what’s the essence of Islam? I have my points, derived after much research-
1. Pure monotheism. Unadulterated worship of one, sole ‘creator’, called the Allah. Echoed by “La ilaha illallah Muhammadur Rasulullah”. Remember, I cannot worship any other God I want to, if I follow Islam. That’s strictly prohibited. I challenge you to question this prohibition in any Muslim scholar in the world.
2. Six articles of ‘faith’ – One God, belief in Angles as a part of God’s creation, books of God, prophets of God, Day of Final Judgment, supremacy of God’s will.
3. Intolerance towards other religions, both internal and external. Internally, a Muslim is not allowed to worship any other God except Allah, or engage in any (conceived) ‘ill’ practices like Idol worship. Externally, people are divided into believers and non-believers of Islam (Kafir/ Infidels).
4. The Sharia law of God, covering many aspects of Islam life like prayer, fasting, sex etc.
So that’s basically what I found out to be very true and authentic. All I see in Islam is a hardcore belief system, an organized religion in true sense. ‘Intolerance’ and blind faith results in clashes, and that’s what happening in most of the Islamic countries, no matter how anybody tries to justify it.
1. Pure monotheism. Unadulterated worship of one, sole ‘creator’, called the Allah. Echoed by “La ilaha illallah Muhammadur Rasulullah”. Remember, I cannot worship any other God I want to, if I follow Islam. That’s strictly prohibited. I challenge you to question this prohibition in any Muslim scholar in the world.
2. Six articles of ‘faith’ – One God, belief in Angles as a part of God’s creation, books of God, prophets of God, Day of Final Judgment, supremacy of God’s will.
3. Intolerance towards other religions, both internal and external. Internally, a Muslim is not allowed to worship any other God except Allah, or engage in any (conceived) ‘ill’ practices like Idol worship. Externally, people are divided into believers and non-believers of Islam (Kafir/ Infidels).
4. The Sharia law of God, covering many aspects of Islam life like prayer, fasting, sex etc.
So that’s basically what I found out to be very true and authentic. All I see in Islam is a hardcore belief system, an organized religion in true sense. ‘Intolerance’ and blind faith results in clashes, and that’s what happening in most of the Islamic countries, no matter how anybody tries to justify it.
Im reading gita! 2/3rd of gita. My mind is too pure now, so plan to watch some porn later.
Most of it is Krishna saying he is the one dude, how those who pray to other gods are unintelligent people indirectly praying to him, an how those who believe in other gods will suffer for multiple lifetimes. At least the punishment for disbelief in certain other faiths does not extend to multiple lives!
@rishitells,your so called research is very poor then.of course if you were carefully reading newspapers like hindu & even times of india daily you would know that there are female muslim scholars as well as moderate muslim scholars who have refuted the practice of triple talaq & even challenged hardliners to prove it but got no response so far yet.
One SMS, and Amina Wadud
i seriously doubt that you or the one posted before you knows even a fraction of what she knows about Islam & yet i don't see her following your version of Islam.
@Anorion,you made my day with your comment
One SMS, and Amina Wadud
i seriously doubt that you or the one posted before you knows even a fraction of what she knows about Islam & yet i don't see her following your version of Islam.
@Anorion,you made my day with your comment
rishitells
Always in Dreams...
Did I even mention Triple Talaq, or any such thing? Did you even read my post before commenting, that what was my intent of posting? Dude, this selective quoting isn't gonna help you. It is my serious open challenge to you to refute any of the facts I presented ex-
- 'Prohibition of worship of any other God except Allah', or doing 'Idol Worship Prohibition'.
- Six Articles of Faith, one of them being the Judgement Day
- Concept of believer and non-believer.
That's good if Liberalization of Islam is happening, I am very happy about that since it's much needed in the Islamic world. I salute that Taliban girl Malala who was shot in head by extremist Islamists, and stood for the right of women Internationally. People need to rise above the notion of religion.
I suggest you to read Tasleema Nasreen too, and her view of Islam, why she became anti-Islamic and anti-Religion, and what kind of tortures she has gone throughout her life by Islamists. Read about the Fatwas which were passed against her, read her biography, and then come back. ok.
mediator
Technomancer
Excellent. Now try to incorporate the basic meaning of consciousness that I have explained in my post to @Raaabo and then understand what that "I/Me" really means that Krishna propounds.Anorion said:
The same "I/Me" can be found in Devi Purana, "that" in Upanishads etc, a sense of riddle in the poetry. I would request you not to fall to the level of Christian missionaries here and interpret "I/Me" as Krishna asking to worship him only. The devas are simply a representation of lower level of consciousness.
Consult this -> *auromere.wordpress.com/2009/09/26/links-between-vedas-upanishads-tantra-and-puranas/
Even if you fall to that low level of understanding then read what the verse 9.11, 7.24, 18.63 say and entire chapter 7 and 10 for that matter.
BTW, Whose translations are you reading? Anyways, if you are reading with an intent of fault finding instead of understanding with detachment, then you are simply wasting your time!
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Hrishi
******************
This my friend is what the world needs.
Hrishi
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We are born in a free world !!!! We are open to change religion and faith in rituals whenever we want and to whatever we feel.
if I feel a specific religion not appropriate , the world has given me a Right to follow and believe in another. Its a shame that there are selfish and foolish people who mock other religions that they don't like.
And Indians have a greater opportunity be cause they live in a secular state .
if I feel a specific religion not appropriate , the world has given me a Right to follow and believe in another. Its a shame that there are selfish and foolish people who mock other religions that they don't like.
And Indians have a greater opportunity be cause they live in a secular state .
who are you to talk about about facts?when it comes to Islam i only consider facts from 2 kinds of people:extremist muslim clerics who can put to shame the most muslim believers or moderate clerics with both being able to recite quran verses in their sleep.first go to a orthodox muslim cleric & tell him about Amina Wadud & her position about sharia law & then ask him to engage in a debate with her on conservative nature of Islam which he thinks is correct & then post their debate here & you will get your answers.
it is common sense to not use tone of authority like:i present facts & i challenge you to refute me.such tone of authority befits only those who possess reputable credentials not anonymous posts & quotes over internet.it will help you in your professional as well as personal life if you learn this lesson quickly.
if still hard to understand then think about this:would you consider participating in a debate with a world renowned muslim Phd scholar with a condition that if you fail to give credible counter-arguments based on solid sources you will get jail time for hate crimes?if your answer is no then you don't have what it takes to speak in a manner of authority.
P.S.this is not just for you but everyone here who is bashing other religions.
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CommanderShawnzer
Steam High Templar
This thread is as big as the Mahabharat!
^^not even close.
rishitells
Always in Dreams...
I am a debater in the fight-club section to talk about facts, got it? What you consider does not matter to Islam and it's believers. I am not debating about Sharia or an individual Muslim scholar, but about the basic principles of Islam as a Whole, which I presented, and which you ignored and continued your meaningless blabbering-
- 'Prohibition of worship of any other God except Allah', or doing 'Idol Worship Prohibition'.
- Six Articles of Faith, one of them being the Judgement Day
- Concept of believer and non-believer.
Whether n extremist clerics, or most Muslim believers/Moderate clerics, these are basic principles, fundamental beliefs, and founding principles of Islam. I already have my answers from major Muslim scholars, especially women like Tasleema Nasrin, whom you ignored again. I don't wish to engage in debate on Sharia law, or any conservative or open Islam. Whether conservative or open, still these Basic Principles will remain the same, ok? I challenged you to refute these principles which you seem to ignore again. Question again- Why are you having pain in accepting these principles?. These are not My Facts, but universal facts of Islam, kindly Google it for yourself before any further comments.
So better wash off your ignorance and gain some knowledge yourself, instead of selective URL mining and quoting Individual scholars. And I again challenge you to refute any of the facts which I presented in post #309. Either have the capacity to debate, else better remain out. A fight club is all about challenging and refuting arguments and facts, understand it properly before debating here. Better say I don't have the guts to research and refute your facts, instead of questioning my credentials and tone. Ok.
Edit: Yes, I would love to love to debate with a world renowned Muslim Phd Scholar and presents these Three simple Facts. If he is really a Muslim at all, He will accept all this facts without any problem.
P.S. -> I never bashed a religion, ok. I presented what is written and what "World Renowned Muslim PhD scholars" have researched. If that causes a pain in your heart, then this fight clubs is not for you, strictly speaking.
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hmm. Homo sapiens sapiens were there in Satyuga. 5000 years of Kali Yuga has passed. So, that makes it: (432000 * 2) + (432000 * 3) + (432000 * 4) + (5000) = 3893000 years. Approxiamately 4 million years ago.
What years are we talking about anyway? Earth years? Pluto years?
Human consciousness is creative. The science of consciousness. Truly yes.
What years are we talking about anyway? Earth years? Pluto years?
Human consciousness is creative. The science of consciousness. Truly yes.
rishitells
Always in Dreams...
@whitestar_999
I consider Internet as the God of knowledge in today’s world, where all you need to know about virtually anything is comprehensively available. So give me any link from this God of knowledge that challenges the simple facts about Islam I presented, like Pure Monotheism, Six articles of Faith, or Five Pillars, and believer, non-believer ‘concept’. If you find me any, I promise you I will accept Islam with utter happiness.
Let me quote the basic Biodata of Islam for you from Patheos Library –
Would you like to refute any statement from this library bio, too, and point any statement of mine which contradicts with this bio?
I consider Internet as the God of knowledge in today’s world, where all you need to know about virtually anything is comprehensively available. So give me any link from this God of knowledge that challenges the simple facts about Islam I presented, like Pure Monotheism, Six articles of Faith, or Five Pillars, and believer, non-believer ‘concept’. If you find me any, I promise you I will accept Islam with utter happiness.
Let me quote the basic Biodata of Islam for you from Patheos Library –
Source: Islam Origins, Islam History, Islam BeliefsPatheos Library said:
Would you like to refute any statement from this library bio, too, and point any statement of mine which contradicts with this bio?
@rishitells,it is obviously clear to me that you are not worth my time so this will be my last reply to you as per my rules.perhaps next time you might want to post some links/references to those scholars you talked to for the sake convincing others(not me now obviously) & i hope that they are not someone whose name search in google does not include a single link to a reputable english national daily(indian or international) unlike *www.google.co.in/search?q=Amina+Wadud
edit:last advice from me:whether research or simple debate on a technological forum there is always a difference between creditable & dime-a-dozen sources on internet.no matter what the fad is when it comes to credibility the good old paper media still rules(read newspapers,libraries,university commissioned studies etc).
edit:last advice from me:whether research or simple debate on a technological forum there is always a difference between creditable & dime-a-dozen sources on internet.no matter what the fad is when it comes to credibility the good old paper media still rules(read newspapers,libraries,university commissioned studies etc).