*** Science Or God? ***

[doomgiver]

Again,which theory/law states this?

common sense. in interstellar space, particles can only communicate via 2 methods
1. gravity
2. e/m or strong or weak force.

as the distance increases, gravitational force decreases^2, so we cant have large distances
the strong/weak/em forces stop operating at a few hundred nm(not sure, might be a bit more)

so you HAVE to have close contact. why do you think the brain is so dense? so that impulses have to travel less.

There are already plenty of arguments going on about if this is the case or not.Ancient texts like Upanishads describe 'Yoga' practices.These practices are accepted scientifically.Then why should the remaining part be fatuous?

^ that should be fictitious
yoga shmoga. even having good sex will keep you in shape, and in great happiness
you can also have the sati and social discrimination that comes with them. special price this summer, you only have to sell your soul!!!

this is why we should never take stuff at face value.
everyone behaves like the ancient indians were holy fsck huge rockstars or something. they just cant do anything wrong. anyone who disagrees is not a patriot and has been "westernized".
what the fsck is wrong with you lot? cant you see that they did some very bad things??

You stated that the particle-system cannot be regarded as a living being since its components are dead-particles.I said every living being is made of dead-particles at the core.

how do we know its living?
here's the paradox. ppl are hell bent on worshipping this thing that cannot be regarded as alive, because we donot have the means to know whether it is alive or not, yet you expect it to see us as sentient living beings so that it showers blessings on us?

would you worship a stone, if u didnt know it was not living, but i told you???

Originally Posted by Neuron
The particle system i suggested has consciousness and conscience.Just like mass possess gravity,this system has the property of causing events that depends on one's deeds.

Why shouldn't?Why is it illogical?


Why do you say so?I can't see how those 2 are related?

im talking about the "property". if that system has that "property", then stars and clouds too must have the same inherent "property", because stars and clouds too are just particle systems....

So when you look around, you don't see a single one living happily?All are in eternal misery and pain?

as is said "sad eclipses happy. there is happiness, but more sadness"
i see the pain of over 3 billion people who dont get enough to eat, who are forced to do menial, dangerous and bad jobs, whose homes have been torn apart, whose loved ones killed, and lives destroyed.

where is the happiness???

the fake smiles on the faces of film stars and businessmen as they go to the bank?
the fake smiles on the shopper's face when she buys a diamond pendant?

that is not happiness, that is instant gratification.... a big difference.

 

[Faun]

Alan watts primer for everyone here

 

[doomgiver]

ehh? never heard of him. wiki says hes a philosopher kinda guy

 

[Neuron]

I have realized that the past and future are real illusions, that they exist in the present, which is what there is and all there is.
-Alan Watts

Definitely someone with a higher neuron count

common sense. in interstellar space, particles can only communicate via 2 methods
1. gravity
2. e/m or strong or weak force.
as the distance increases, gravitational force decreases^2, so we cant have large distances
the strong/weak/em forces stop operating at a few hundred nm(not sure, might be a bit more)
so you HAVE to have close contact. why do you think the brain is so dense? so that impulses have to travel less.

These are only the particle related properties detected till date.Now this is from ME2 but it could be a possiblity.What if the state of one particle is in correspondence with the other.There is no question of mutual communication
arising here.No matter how much large is the distance the state of one is in relation with the other.And this state shift is a 'property' of this particular genre of particle.

^ that should be fictitious
yoga shmoga. even having good sex will keep you in shape, and in great happiness

Yep,what i said is that yoga practises are valid,not that they are the only way to find happiness.What should be fictitious?The fact that yoga practices are scientifically accepted?

you can also have the sati and social discrimination that comes with them. special price this summer, you only have to sell your soul!!!

Except a few of those possibly misinterpreted ideas,you don't have anything to argue about,do you?

this is why we should never take stuff at face value.
everyone behaves like the ancient indians were holy fsck huge rockstars or something. they just cant do anything wrong. anyone who disagrees is not a patriot and has been "westernized".
what the fsck is wrong with you lot? cant you see that they did some very bad things??

Those who were able to predict the spherical shape of earth as well as the structure of solar system during when there were no modern facilities are well,definitely heroic.Those who carried out Sati by misinterpreting vedic hymns and those who compiled the Vedas,Upanishads etc are entirely different people.You are supposed to understand this.

how do we know its living?
here's the paradox. ppl are hell bent on worshipping this thing that cannot be regarded as alive, because we donot have the means to know whether it is alive or not, yet you expect it to see us as sentient living beings so that it showers blessings on us?

I don't care if its living or not,as long as it has consciousness and conscience it can sense and act in proportion to the thoughts.

would you worship a stone, if u didnt know it was not living, but i told you???

I will rely on probability of actuality of a fact.If the probability is more than 49% ,i'll take it.

im talking about the "property". if that system has that "property", then stars and clouds too must have the same inherent "property", because stars and clouds too are just particle systems....

There can't be a 'must' but there can be a 'can' since all particle systems aren't the same.

as is said "sad eclipses happy. there is happiness, but more sadness"
i see the pain of over 3 billion people who dont get enough to eat, who are forced to do menial, dangerous and bad jobs, whose homes have been torn apart, whose loved ones killed, and lives destroyed.
where is the happiness???

the fake smiles on the faces of film stars and businessmen as they go to the bank?
the fake smiles on the shopper's face when she buys a diamond pendant?

that is not happiness, that is instant gratification.... a big difference.

You cannot implicitly state such a thing unless you meet everyone in the world yourself and understand there exact state.But however lies this particular matter it isn't by any means against the existence of the so called 'GOD' since he isn't defined as someone whose job is to keep people happy.

 

[amitash]

i agree, man has no one, but himself to blame. so is it not our responsiblity to remove all such hurdles which stand between global harmony and brotherhood/sisterhood (like religion, god; na rahega baas, na bajegi baasuri)
hinduism has caste system, offerings, blah blah

Yep, I agree, it is our duty to remove such obstacles, but not in a do-or-die kinda way.. religion is not at fault, but the corruption, exploitation and out-dation are.. So wouldnt it be better to stop following all that, that doesnt make sense to you and let other people do the same?

science is not colored by emotional glasses. it accepts with a cold and calculating logic. there is no "my tech is better than yours".

Yep, science has no emotions.. My point is that differences and exploitation exist in science to.. Science as a field is pure but look at the exploitation that exists today.. Numerous patents, preventing a person from bettering or using an existing technology, just so that one person can become rich.. Buyouts and subsequent killings of the bought companies due to threat of competition.. Pressure by governments to research more ways of killing people rather than more ways to help people.. Science is being exploited, just as religion is.. We just dont blame science for it but the companies, the governments and the people.. But here, we blame the religions and not the people exploiting it.. There is a "My tech is better than yours"

ethics are flawed at the core. its seekers tend to place themselves above others. "oh, look, im so damned ethical, i have the higher moral ground, so i will rain down judgement upon you"

People do the best they can to spread what they think is right.. If you saw someone kill, would'nt you tell him what he did was wrong? Isnt it "raining judgement" if you tell him? Judgement based on ethics is one of the most required things for a peacefull life.. Otherwise wouldnt there be chaos everywhere?

yes it is, but then to protect hinduism, you have to resort to violence, else moggledegooks(example only) will wipe us out. dilemma

Did Gandhi resort to violence to protect India? Did Mandela to protect he dark skinned?

as i said, its up to you. pick your sides, i will be as judging and condescending and mean and logical as i want to you because you chose the easy way out(not directed to anyone in particular)

Earlier posted by you:

ethics are flawed at the core. its seekers tend to place themselves above others. "oh, look, im so damned ethical, i have the higher moral ground, so i will rain down judgement upon you"

believe me, man will do anything for a bit of control.
thats why gods were invented.

Is this the correct way for a man of science and logic to put forth his point of view? "Believe me".. I'm sorry, is there a belief system in atheism or science?

 

[doomgiver]

These are only the particle related properties detected till date.Now this is from ME2 but it could be a possiblity.What if the state of one particle is in correspondence with the other.There is no question of mutual communication
arising here.No matter how much large is the distance the state of one is in relation with the other.And this state shift is a 'property' of this particular genre of particle.

thats called resonance, and its not a way of communicating.

What should be fictitious?

you wrote "fatuous", it should be fictitious.

Except a few of those possibly misinterpreted ideas,you don't have anything to argue about,do you?

you too, are misguided, because you dont see what is written in them and just go with the general idea that "yeah, its written by ancient indians, who died out a long time ago, and we should adopt it as standard practice for todays world". why should i take a moldy old book at face value??? it was written a long time a go, and times have changed a lot. please toss the book into the "ancient books containing excellent advice for a bygone age" box.

Those who were able to predict the spherical shape of earth as well as the structure of solar system during when there were no modern facilities are well,definitely heroic.Those who carried out Sati by misinterpreting vedic hymns and those who compiled the Vedas,Upanishads etc are entirely different people.You are supposed to understand this.

they just said that sun is the centre of the solar system. good job, please give the man a nobel.
and you are supposed to understand that the sheep mentality of people is responsible for all that. not one has ever questioned whether the vedas are wrong or not.
and so what if they did heroic things in the past. they are dead. dust. gone. of no use, other than arguing who did what first. i scored 3 goals in a football match 2 years ago. i demand you recognize this feat and call me "heroic" for that. and what did they do about it? allow themselves to be conquered.... they should have instead tried to make advanced weapons.

I don't care if its living or not,as long as it has consciousness and conscience it can sense and act in proportion to the thoughts.

how would you classify something like that. where would you find such a thing?
ok, imagine yourself as "not living" but with consciousness and conscience. you are not aware of any other beings other than your kind. now, some carbon based life forms(humans) start raising their hands in the air and chanting at you. how do you know that they are worshiping you and not calling you names or something? would you just give them boatloads of gold and diamonds?

I will rely on probability of actuality of a fact.If the probability is more than 49% ,i'll take it.

so you are willing to worship anything, if someone tells you to do it? without thinking logically?

There can't be a 'must' but there can be a 'can' since all particle systems aren't the same.

so according to you, some particle systems "can" have some property(like angular spin) and others cannot?
that is pretty arbitrary.

You cannot implicitly state such a thing unless you meet everyone in the world yourself and understand there exact state.But however lies this particular matter it isn't by any means against the existence of the so called 'GOD' since he isn't defined as someone whose job is to keep people happy.

then why worship him??? what can he do??? whats the use???

a god has no place in today's world. its just a tool invented for keeping the tribals and other primitive people in line. like "go to sleep or the god will get you" or "sacrifice this goat or a drought will come"

 

[doomgiver]

Yep, I agree, it is our duty to remove such obstacles, but not in a do-or-die kinda way.. religion is not at fault, but the corruption, exploitation and out-dation are.. So wouldnt it be better to stop following all that, that doesnt make sense to you and let other people do the same?

it has to be do or die. religion is like a cancer, you must remove it from the core to finish it. im not talking about killing people.

Yep, science has no emotions.. My point is that differences and exploitation exist in science to.. Science as a field is pure but look at the exploitation that exists today.. Numerous patents, preventing a person from bettering or using an existing technology, just so that one person can become rich..

did i not say man is responsible for all evils? lets remove evils in the order of least to most productive.
1. religion
2. politicians
3. your pick.

People do the best they can to spread what they think is right.. If you saw someone kill, would'nt you tell him what he did was wrong? Isnt it "raining judgement" if you tell him? Judgement based on ethics is one of the most required things for a peacefull life.. Otherwise wouldnt there be chaos everywhere?

what is ethics? how do you know if a dead person deserved it or not? i will not say that it is always unethical to kill(there are some exceptions), but where is the the line dividing ethical and unethical? lets leave ethics for some other time.

Did Gandhi resort to violence to protect India? Did Mandela to protect the dark skinned?

what good did that do? the english only left india because they could not keep up with the logistical demands. the golden bird had shed its feathers and revealed black feathers. the brits didnt leave just because of non violence. ok, quick poll : choose between your burning wallet and your burning house.(both blazes are very small, but increase over time. you can choose only one) as i thought, your house. same thing with the brits. their economy was in shambles, and the allies were pressing them to give independence to us, and their government had just changed.
i dont know about Mandela. but the stuggle was bloody.

imagine, if the oppressors had wmd's, and were willing to use them. would an unarmed horde stand up to a small battalion armed with modern guns and mechanized armor??

Is this the correct way for a man of science and logic to put forth his point of view? "Believe me".. I'm sorry, is there a belief system in atheism or science?

why, dont you think this is true? im not talking about spiritual "believe", but the "im trying to put across a common sense thing" believe. there's a difference. and you should know it. now go and re-read the post to get it in perspective.

im only interested in getting people to stop wasting their time and money in worshipping some "god".
stupid south fagg0ts give crores of rupees to temples, when they could have used that money to make roads, schools and other stuff.

yup, buddhism is fine. their monks are plain people, and the lead simple lives.

 

[Extreme Gamer]

I am athiest,my family is hindu.

the only thing that comes close to "god" for me are my parents and grandparents.

 

[mohiuddin]

god..
Science once said, earth is flat,then comes earth is round...
Again, 1.sun circling around the earth,2. then earth around the static sun,3. then everything is orbiting in their own orbit...
First was 'Matter is not destructable', now, it is...
First, every speed was relative, but einstein said no light speed is absolute...
First, u can't make time slow, but now theoritically possible...
First, there was one universe theory , now different universe r present simultinously, in same place in different dimension as sheets, intercrossing each other, but no way to jump from one to another...
First, total matter in the universe was constant, then , (total mass+ total energy) was constant...now come the antimatter theory...
And these examples r endless...science is nothing but the discover what god has already created.
The ultimate scientist is the almighty god...
(my opinion)

we r talking here about atom, strong force, weak force...blabla bla...these r discovered by science that always change, isn't it...u talk about atom! Wait, there r nurton, proton...ah wait, there r neuclions...aah, more tiny things that made up protons...and like universe is endless in case of its largeness, it is also endless in case of tinyness...
Lets talk about our mind,yea free mind. Medical science tell that, it is complex result of different neuronal discharge occuring mainly in cerebral cortex...DON't U think 'IT IS PURE BULLSHEET?'

 

[Faun]

^^lol...isn't it much easier to believe in God than study science.

 

[rhitwick]

^U seem to be confused on who told what?

Oh, sry, I did not notice, it was ur "opinion".

 

[mohiuddin]

'My opinion' was for- i believe on god over all...not that facts...how come, facts become opinions?
@faun, yes, it is very easy to believe god than study science ...

 

[doomgiver]

^^lol...isn't it much easier to believe in God than study science.

its also easier to give bribes rather than stand up to corruption.
its also easier to dispose off a hooker rather than pay her.
its also easier to take drugs and live off your parents money rather than facing the world.
its also easier to commit suicide rather than continue living.

congrats, just take a jump off a cliff and all your problems are solved.

its gutless traitors like this who are responsible for all the bad things in the world. just because of their laziness, everything that is wrong in this world happens.

And these examples r endless...science is nothing but the discover what god has already created.
The ultimate scientist is the almighty god...

does your "almighty god" tell you anything about the universe? what exactly does this "god" thing do that you are calling him "almighty"???

Lets talk about our mind,yea free mind. Medical science tell that, it is complex result of different neuronal discharge occuring mainly in cerebral cortex...DON't U think 'IT IS PURE BULLSHEET?'

no, my dear hominid, your "opinion" is PURE BULLSHEET.

whatever you had ranted about in your post.... what did you want to prove? that god is great?

if we go according to your god, then we must live in utter and absolute ignorance.
god has made this world, and we have no right to change it

NO, LET ME TELL YOU, GOD IS NOTHING, WE ARE GREAT.

we have unravelled the secrets of the cosmos, we have sent man to the moon. we have brought light, food and warmth into billions of homes. what did your god do??? other than trying to slow down progress in the name of bullsheet???

if you claim that "omg, all that was done by a small segment of our religion", then go change your religion and then come back. i dont care who did what, it was done by religion in religion's name, so everyone of that religion is as guilty as the next.

 

[Neuron]

thats called resonance, and its not a way of communicating.

Carefully read what I explained.Its nothing like resonance.

you wrote "fatuous", it should be fictitious.

Why should it be fictitious?

you too, are misguided, because you dont see what is written in them and just go with the general idea that "yeah, its written by ancient indians, who died out a long time ago, and we should adopt it as standard practice for todays world". why should i take a moldy old book at face value??? it was written a long time a go, and times have changed a lot. please toss the book into the "ancient books containing excellent advice for a bygone age" box
they just said that sun is the centre of the solar system. good job, please give the man a nobel.
and you are supposed to understand that the sheep mentality of people is responsible for all that. not one has ever questioned whether the vedas are wrong or not.
and so what if they did heroic things in the past. they are dead. dust. gone. of no use, other than arguing who did what first. i scored 3 goals in a football match 2 years ago. i demand you recognize this feat and call me "heroic" for that. and what did they do about it? allow themselves to be conquered.... they should have instead tried to make advanced weapons.

You don't have any idea about the contents of the Vedic texts.Dhanurveda explains in depth about weaponry and martial arts and you are going to run out of nobel prizes if given one for every medicinal technique adopted from Ayurveda.

how would you classify something like that. where would you find such a thing?

Now like I said before if I had introduced to you the idea of black holes your reaction would have been no different.

ok, imagine yourself as "not living" but with consciousness and conscience. you are not aware of any other beings other than your kind. now, some carbon based life forms(humans) start raising their hands in the air and chanting at you. how do you know that they are worshiping you and not calling you names or something? would you just give them boatloads of gold and diamonds?

Thats not what i proposed.The conscience of the *system* can sense not just the thoughts of those of same kind but also those of the living.

so you are willing to worship anything, if someone tells you to do it? without thinking logically?

I will rely on the probability of actuality of a fact.

Probability is derived by applying logic.Everybody knows that.

so according to you,some particle systems "can" have some property(like angular spin) and others cannot?
that is pretty arbitrary.

More like every particle of a type has a spin number ,but not all spin numbers are the same.And when they form a system they develop new, unique properties.

when why worship him???

I've never substituted the system with a 'him'.I'd prefer 'it'.

what can he do??? whats the use???

These I've explained several times before.

a god has no place in today's world. its just a tool invented for keeping the tribals and other primitive people in line. like "go to sleep or the god will get you" or "sacrifice this goat or a drought will come"

If the concept of GOD was developed to frighten some random dumb freak,then why go and write an entire series of books like the Vedas and explain the concepts like Brahman and all??

 

[rhitwick]

its gutless traitors like this who are responsible for all the bad things in the world. just because of their laziness, everything that is wrong in this world happens.

Faun, dekh tujhe kay abol rahe hai

 

[doomgiver]

oye!!! im not saying anything personal!!! im just generalising!!!

 

[Faun]

Faun, dekh tujhe kay abol rahe hai

I am open to reason

 

[Piyush]

phew......i took me around 25 min to read just this page..............

ok....related to topic
its simple
i wrote a c program for it

double god; //
float science; //
int humans; //

if (prediction_2012==true)
god++;
else if (prediction_2012==false)
science++;
else if (prediction_2012==postponed)
humans=n00bs ;//
else
printf("move over to next post ");

 

[rhitwick]

^Ummm AFAIK, God has never predicted anything like that, it was the Mayans who did not know how to count beyond 2012 and told world will end then.

I've another random, Which religion does God follow?

 

[Neuron]

phew......i took me around 25 min to read just this page..............

ok....related to topic
its simple
i wrote a c program for it

double god; //
float science; //
int humans; //

if (prediction_2012==true)
god++;
else if (prediction_2012==false)
science++;
else if (prediction_2012==postponed)
humans=n00bs ;//
else
printf("move over to next post ");

Error,'Invalid arguement'