*** Science Or God? ***

[chatterjeesayan]

Re: ***science Or God?***

@karnivore
"We all know what these great men thought about religion, was it absolutely necessary to drag their names in a dog fight like this. It would hav been really nice if u shared your own views through your experiences and not through someone elses mouth."

Please see that I've expressed my opinion all through the post and only brought their names in context of the topic,to support my view.And after all I'm not a knower of Truth,so I have to bring the names of great personalities,especially like Swami Vivekananda,as they perceived Truth.

"It might come as a shock, but the purpose of life has got nothing to do with anything divine. Instead it argues, which is accepted by most of evolutionary biologists, that the purpose of existence is nothing but as simple as duplicating and propagating our genes, following Darwin's “natural selection”"

I can not get your point properly.Can this ever be a purpose of life?What is the aim of natural selection?Evolution?Why are all the phenomena happenning?Why Evolution?Who are we?Why are we?Has the world been created out of nothing!!!CHILDISH PRATTLE!!!!

Macneile Dixon puts it...

" 'There is, then, nothing to be hoped for, nothing to be expected and nothing to be done save to await our turn to mount the scaffold and bid farewell to the colossal blunder, the much-ado-about-nothing world!"

Do you want to mean that our world is a colossal blunder?What is the aim of evolution?Why are we evolving?Just for the sake of evolution?Clear your point buddy.

"Well Swami Vivekananda was not in a position to know these (the book was written in 1976). Also Swami, looked at everything from a “Hindu” point of view. If u carefully read his books - don’t need to read all the 12 volumes, just read first 4 volumes – U will find myriad contradictions and criticism of other religion, particularly Christianity, Islam and Buddhism. If all religions are “pearls on the ring”, then whats with this tendency of “Hinduism is right and all other religions are wrong”. In your post itself u will find subtle criticism of Christianity. He is at best a “revivalist”. Seriously, if I hav to understand religion, without the biasness of Hinduism or for that matter any religion, I would rather look at Max Weber than Swamiji."

Probably you didn't read Swamiji.Have you read a few paragraphs from his "Christ ,the Messenger"?If you read it,you would have known that what kind of respect he paid for Christ.Do you know he was a deep admirer of Budhdha.How can you say that he looks evrything from the Hindu point of view.Probably you haven't read him,if you had,you didi the reading superficially.Remember he said...."We believe not only in universal toleration but we accept all religions as true. ..."And after all we have to say the truth,we needn't have to flatter every religion.If you have read him,you would have known that he was totally unbiased.And you'll be surprised that he criticised his own religion's drawbacks as well as others.

About Einstein I've no opinions,world knows him well.I needn't say anything for him.


Again I say..RELIGION IS NOT BELIEF...it is REALISATION OF TRUTH.One need not believe any religion to have only strength.It is realisation of Ultimate Truth,grandest of all science,science of human nature in depth...it is not going to chapel,Mandir or Masjid....it is not any dogma...it is not doctrine...it is being and becoming.

@karnivore

"U need God/religion if u r running low on self-belief, confidence and conviction.

U need God/religion if u r looking for an excuse or justification for all that u do or intend to do.

U need God/religion if u r looking for an easy explanation for all that u fail to explain by means of common sense, common knowledge and common understanding."

"Are anything more than highly advanced bio-mechanical machines"


For the first point,you will be running low on you self esteem if you don't believe in Atman,your own soul.Because without thinking oneself as Atman,the eternal,one scracely get self confidence of that level.If you have full belief in you and don't have any belief in any gods of heaven,you are a THEIST,a religous person.

For the second point,if anybody thinks that he can do anything and escape the law of Karma,he is cheating himself.We should show pity on him.

For your third point,please don't have such childish cocept of God,that he is a magecian sitting over the sky,and making all the things happen,which are still unexplained and leaves the job after man has discovered the law.It's a childish concept of God.It is better not to believe in this type of God and be an atheist rather.

Are anything more than highly advanced bio-mechanical machines?

No,we are not..we can not be.We are much greater than that.How can a person with SELFCONFIDENCE can approve this!!!This type of selfconfidence ...PHEW!!!...We are the children of immortal bliss...we can do anything and everything...we can crush the stars to powder..we can do anythig...that is the word of a THEIST...this type of selfconfidence!!!

 

[karnivore]

Re: ***science Or God?***

@cyberboy_kerala

Too early to say convincingly that the "purpose of life is purposeless"

Well "selfish gene" is not my theory. It was proposed by Richard Dawkins in 1976 and today its widely accepted, although not entirely without its own share of criticism. I would suggest u to first go through the book before u start tearing it apart.

....but we cant deny the ultimate truth "atma" self

If by "self" u mean the consciousness as "self", of course it can't be denied. Well how can u deny consciousness. But here's a question (although it might be a touch too heavy for u to fathom the full implication). If u convert to Islam, will u still argue about your so called "atma", cauz i hope u know that Islam doesn't believe in "atma".

Universe is self aware that it exist.

Exactly how u got to know that Universe is self-aware of its existence. Can u please throw some light on it, that is, if u can.

@chatterjeesayan

CHILDISH PRATTLE!!!!

Hmmmm.......arrogance of youth or arrogance of ignorance, i wonder.

Can this ever be a purpose of life?

Yes. As i said, its much more simple than its made out to be.

What is the aim of natural selection?Evolution?

According to Darwin, propagation of "species" and according to Dawkins propagation of "gene".

Why are all the phenomena happening?Why Evolution?Who are we?Why are we?Has the world been created out of nothing

Pretty much inane. Why does anything happen in the first place. They happen because they follow certain laws of physics, biology and chemistry. There is nothing divine in these "happenings". True, we have our limitations and probably would never quite understand or explain everything in black and white. Incapability of science is not the explanation for god. And hell no, world was never created out of nothing.

Why are we evolving?Just for the sake of evolution?Clear your point buddy

My dear friend, here in lies the greatest fallacy. If u accept that we are evolving the pertinent question is why. Now, biologists say that the reason is because nature is changing, and with each change we are learning to cope with nature and more we gain experience more we evolve, and more we evolve, more is the likelihood that our gene will survive. Thats how the ball rolls. But the interesting observation is that if we are still in the middle of evolutionary process, then obviously our current looks as human beings, together with our consciousness is definitely incomplete, cauz we are in the process of becoming a still higher being. Thats where religion clashes with the concept of evolution. If something divine really created us, why didn't he create us as complete humans, why did it take so million years to get here. All religion grappled with this dilemma and finally came to the conclusion that "evolution" does not exist, because thats the best they could do in the face of compelling scientific evidences. Once again, first read "The Selfish Gene" and then start asking questions.

Probably you didn't read Swamiji.Have you read a few paragraphs from his "Christ ,the Messenger"?If you read it,you would have known that what kind of respect he paid for Christ.Do you know he was a deep admirer of Budhdha.How can you say that he looks evrything from the Hindu point of view.Probably you haven't read him,if you had,you didi the reading superficially.Remember he said...."We believe not only in universal toleration but we accept all religions as true. ..."And after all we have to say the truth,we needn't have to flatter every religion.If you have read him,you would have known that he was totally unbiased.And you'll be surprised that he criticised his own religion's drawbacks as well as others.

My hunch is that u hav read the transcripts of Swami's works. A little of this and a little bit of that. As i suggested, go through the first 4 volumes thoroughly, and since u are a Bengali, read the Bengali version. Don't read anything beyond 4 rth volume. It will be waste of time.

Let me quote from your earlier post:

In the church, religionists first learn a religion, then begin to practise it; they do not take experience as the basis of their belief. But the mystic starts out in search of truth, experiences it first, and then formulates his creed. The church takes the experience of others; the mystic has his own experience. The church goes from the outside in; the mystic goes from the inside out.

I hope u are mature enough to realise, that it is a subtle criticism of the Church. As with the Buddhism, read his observations on "atma", in probably volume 2, and then tell me if those were not criticism of Buddism, not Lord Buddha, then what is.

And about the last part, it is evident that you have no clue as to what you are saying. Heres few sample:

....it is not any dogma...it is not doctrine...it is being and becoming

Being and becoming what ????

you will be running low on you self esteem if you don't believe in Atman,your own soul.Because without thinking oneself as Atman,the eternal,one scracely get self confidence of that level

Who said u that ???? I hav plenty of self-confidence and i don't hav to call god for that. Neither do i believe in this crazy crap called "atma" You are a kid and need to face the world first. You will then know a thing or two about life.

If you have full belief in you and don't have any belief in any gods of heaven,you are a THEIST,a religious person.

Do u even read what u type. If someone believes in god he is a THEIST, if someone does not believe in god but believes in himself, he is still a THEIST. Kiddo, grow up.

...if anybody thinks that he can do anything and escape the law of Karma,he is cheating himself.We should show pity on him.

Unbelievably stupid. OK, what is the law of karma, and who wrote it please. And yes u can hav pity on me.

For your third point,please don't have such childish cocept of God,that he is a magecian sitting over the sky,and making all the things happen,which are still unexplained and leaves the job after man has discovered the law.It's a childish concept of God.It is better not to believe in this type of God and be an atheist rather

Fine, then define god.

We are much greater than that

Like what.

Remember one thing;
"To repeat what someone has said, u need education. To challenge it, u need brains"

 

[planetcall]

Re: ***science Or God?***

My dear friend, here in lies the greatest fallacy. If u accept that we are evolving the pertinent question is why. Now, biologists say that the reason is because nature is changing, and with each change we are learning to cope with nature and more we gain experience more we evolve, and more we evolve, more is the likelihood that our gene will survive. Thats how the ball rolls. But the interesting observation is that if we are still in the middle of evolutionary process, then obviously our current looks as human beings, together with our consciousness is definitely incomplete, cauz we are in the process of becoming a still higher being. Thats where religion clashes with the concept of evolution. If something divine really created us, why didn't he create us as complete humans, why did it take so million years to get here. All religion grappled with this dilemma and finally came to the conclusion that "evolution" does not exist, because thats the best they could do in the face of compelling scientific evidences. Once again, first read "The Selfish Gene" and then start asking questions.

Before trying to criticise and proving the fallacy of sanatan dharm/सनातन धर्म i.e. Hinduism(as you talk of all religion in general) first try to learn what it is based on. There is no clash in hindu religion and evolution theories. Dont show your ignorance towards the subject. If you want to discuss then before providing your self-proved statements do give a thought.

 

[karnivore]

Re: ***science Or God?***

^^ OK. Tell me which Hindu text admits of “evolution” as we know and understand in terms of science. I will update my knowledge. Making a statement is easy, but to back up your comments, with logic is perhaps a little difficult. Anyway, my "ignorance" tells me there is no such admission, neither is there any concrete debate, within "Hinduism", about this phenomena.
Again my "ignorance" has made the following observations:
- Science describes “evolution” as an event “within” nature. Hinduism describes it as “without”.
- Science defines evolution in terms of physical evolution. For Hinduism it is evolution of “consciousness” not body.
- For science evolution is a “trial and error method of adaptation”. For Hinduism it a conscious effort of “enlightenment” of mind.
- Science says “evolution” is thrust upon us by nature and is an inescapable phenomena. For Hinduism, it is an “will full” act on our part.

How, in the hell do u think, "evolution", as described by science, is same as "evolution" defined by Hinduism. OH i get it. Its same because u said so.

And come to think of it. I thought I gave my logic as to why “evolution” is in conflict with a religion, any religion. Of course, immaturity got the best of you. Read and try to think and then try to criticize.

Once again i ask:

If something divine really created us, why didn't he create us as complete humans, why did it take so million years to get here.

 

[mediator]

Re: ***science Or God?***

@Karnivore : It seems u r living in some sort of hallucination so as to be believing in "modern" science so blindly!

Do u even know how scientists conduct some experiments to develop medicines? They conduct experiments on animals like rabbits to produce medicines for humans? And then further it has been well known that within the humans too we have varying immunity levels!

Now science/basic chemistry also tells us if a substance burnt under ideal conditions its weight will alter. So y doesnt the weight of ghee alters? Is the science flawed then? Read thisPost #65.

Also please enlighten y r ur fella foreigners shocked about cowdung now when infact it has been written in vedas that it was used as counter to radioactivity?

Next abt homeopathy

There are two points of view about homeopathy that are in conflict. One viewpoint says that homeopathy should not attempt to meet the rigorous requirements of scientific medicine. It is sufficient that there have been millions of satisfied patients during the last 200 years. Science is not relevant anyway because it rejects the concept of the energy of the "vital force" which is essential to homeopathy. This vital force is identical to the concept of vitalism -- a primitive concept used to explain health and disease. And, besides, scientific medicine is unfairly prejudiced and biased against homeopathy. Dana Ullman [3], a leading spokesman for American homeopathy, says that personal experience is much more convincing than any experiments. The emphasis on experience shows that most people simply do not understand that good science, based upon experiments, is essential to the development of knowledge.

Homeopathy has existed for about 200 years, yet reports in the media have suggested that homeopathy is the medicine of the future.

Source


Here's a site that u shud read slowly and carefully!
*vedicganita.org

So instead of opining abt the clashes and criticising Hinduism on the "basis of modern science", u shud really do some research. It seems ur "modern" science is flawed in some cases that it needs the help of vedic maths.

 

[zyberboy]

Re: ***science Or God?***

Exactly how u got to know that Universe is self-aware of its existence. Can u please throw some light on it, that is, if u can.

Already posted in this thread u may have missed it.
Every quantum particle is aware of the whole thing going on the entire universe, its like the whole thing is being recorded and experienced.universe acts as it is conscious.Scientist are on their way to prove this, for eg if a bomb blast occurs in a big city it is possible to decode this event at that instant itself from a remote place or from the other end of our milky way, Amazing isn't?.Scientist is proving this by using a robot which moves randomly in a surface(much more have to be explained here).......this experiment is new,but its base is QM.You may soon see about this in articles as experiments are being conducted.
This were science and religion coincidence that "Truth is ultimate",it cannot denied,it cannot be denied by saying that, u have not read this ,this day,this year even after millions of years.
All the investigation teams(like cbi) around the world hav this moto.That Truth will come to the light no matter how hard u cover it..Its the "cosmic law" of the universe.

Well "selfish gene" is not my theory. It was proposed by Richard Dawkins in 1976 and today its widely accepted, although not entirely without its own share of criticism. I would suggest u to first go through the book before u start tearing it apart.

Yeah, it is widely accepted that only goal of evolution is to pass the genes.Evolution is only a mincule part of the whole thing....and we cant explain the whole universe with this simple algorithm.

 

[chatterjeesayan]

Re: ***science Or God?***

y dear friend I've no time to say all the things I've said before.If you can not grasp the meaning of Truth,I have nothing to say.And if you say what is this Truth?I can't explain it to you.Firstly I have not percieved it,there are very few great souls who have percieved it and secondly it's not a matter to prove logically.Because the Truth I'm talking about is beyond space,time and causation.Anything inside space,time and causation is changing and therefore mortal.You can deny God but can you deny Truth?Denial of Truth is denial of our existence.Creating anything out of nothing is absurd..any logical mind will see that.And until you say why are we evolving?What is the purpose of life?I will no agree to you.I'm not at all trying to rationalize the mystery with the something "divine".We can not deny these question...who are we?Why are we here?What is the goal of life?Why are we evolving?And again and again why are you bringing the term evolution?Does evolution contradict Truth?Who has said you that believing in God means believing in a magical creation of life?And what is life after all?Can you define consciousness?

Remember the "Science" you are talking about is physical science.How can you deny the existence beyond it?If a man doesn't have a eye he can not see trees,houses etc.Does it mean that they don't exist?A creature like bat can sense sounds in the range in which man's ear is incapabale of sensing those sounds.Does it mean that there only exists sound between our audible range.Again,QUESTION TRUTH IS QUESTIONING THE EXISTENCE OF OURS.And creation of anything outof nothing is CHILDISH PRATTLE...I dare to say.EXISTECE OF GOD CAN NOT CONTRADICT THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION ALL THE TIME.Has God signed a paper with you saying..."I will create this way or that way..."GOD SITTING ON A CHAIR AND DISPENSING JUSTICE IS NOT THE GOD WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.

"we are in the process of becoming a still higher being."

Infinite evolution doesn't mean anything.Evolution is always finite.Our infinitely becoming finite is a concept to be laughed at.

"Thats where religion clashes with the concept of evolution....All religion grappled with this dilemma and finally came to the conclusion that "evolution" does not exist, because thats the best they could do in the face of compelling scientific evidences."

Atleast as far as I know Sanatana Dharma supports evolution.As our consciousness is being manifested gradually we are taking higher bodies for the purpose of attaing the Truth.This is what Eternal Religion says.

"Do u even read what u type. If someone believes in god he is a THEIST, if someone does not believe in god but believes in himself, he is still a THEIST. Kiddo, grow up."


"He is an atheist who does not believe in himself. The old religion said that he was an atheist who did not believe in God. The new religion says that he is the atheist who does not believe in himself. But it is not selfish faith, because the Vedanta, again, is the doctrine of oneness. It means faith in all, because you are all.".....SWAMI VIVEKANANDA

"My hunch is that u hav read the transcripts of Swami's works. A little of this and a little bit of that. As i suggested, go through the first 4 volumes thoroughly, and since u are a Bengali, read the Bengali version. Don't read anything beyond 4 rth volume. It will be waste of time."

It is what I've read..Jnanayoga,Karmayoga,BhaktiYoga,Partially Rajayoga and letters of Swami Vivekannada and Reminiscences of Swami Vivekananda by his eastern and western admirers.Please don't jusdge on behalf of others that what will be a WASTE OF TIME AND WHAT WILL BE NOT!

"Unbelievably stupid. OK, what is the law of karma, and who wrote it please. And yes u can hav pity on me"

Pity on you that you that you are ingnore of your work's consequence.If do good things you'll get good result and bad for bad deeds.Won't you fail poorly if don't study?Won't you get harsh words in return if you say harsh words to me?Think of it in an broad scale.Ant by the way..WHO WROTE THE "certain laws of physics, biology and chemistry.."????

"Fine, then define god."

I haven't realized Truth.As to percieve any scientific truth you must use the proper instruments,it is same in the case of religion.Practise Jnanayoga,Karmayoga,Bhaktiyoga,Rajayoga...you will attain truth surely.But it is not a child's play,that you can do it in five months.Don't say anything without practising them,it's not at all rational in type...it is stupidity.
And definition of God is impossible because he is beyond space time and causation..."Abang manaso gocharam"...beyond speech and mind.

"Like what..."


"Aham Brahmasmi"....Upanishad says.We are Brahman himself.But not this little.."badmayesh" I...but the greater I without the impurities of body mind complex.

"mystic has his own experience. The church goes from the outside in; the mystic goes from the inside out."

We have to after all say the truth.There are many Temples in India full of superstitious beliefs.they cruelly torture the downtroddens.If we say that raising a voice against them will be same to criticise Hinduism..it's ridiculous.So..you know churches opposed Galileo once.Was it desired?It was not Lord Jesus who did that thing.It was superstitous church.We have to say the truth...though it may offend aothers.AGAIN i SAY RELIGION IS NOT DOGMAS AND DOCTRINES IT IS REALISATION OF TRUTH,TRUTH AND TRUTH.....In this way,we are not at all religious....Am I?...NEVER NEVER NEVER...AT LEAST A CRORE MILE FROM IT...

"To repeat what someone has said, u need education. To challenge it, u need brains..."

Thinking of oneself as the most intelligent person(evn more than Einstein ) is stupidity.And to say "I am very much knowledgeable" is still more stupidity.I am not in a position to challenge any one my friend,neither have I any desire to show my ignorance(showing of knowledge is showing of ignorance). I love Truth that is why I say for Truth.I don't have any intention to forcibly convert anyone to my view.I am servant of servants af all of you.I don't dare to know the Infinite...Sat-chit- ananda with mere argument....a slight introspection reveals that we are scratching the surface of the Infinite.This "little I" of ours has limitations....knowing God with arguments is not possible,He is not percievable by senses...introspection reveals.

I want to LOVE science in its true form,I love Truth,I love the science that seeks truth...physics is my favourite subject.So any denying TRuth may keep his own views with him surely....but I can not agree with him who doubts our existence....in Bengali they are called "Shunya Badi Nastik"...I know that I am not totally an THEIST.Because I were ,I would have gone mad for Truth and not to be in such a position to type messages in a forum.Anybody Who has not seen God can not be said to be have a proper faith(not belief) in Truth,thus he is an ATHEIST and SO I AM,IN THAT SENSE.

Glory Unto Truth...glory Unto Truth ...glory Unto The Truth Ultimate....

 

[karnivore]

Re: ***science Or God?***

@ mediator.

It seems u r living in some sort of hallucination so as to be believing in "modern" science so blindly

This hallucinated world of mine does not tie me up in mindless dos and don’ts like your distorted reality. And tell u what, am loving it.

Do u even know how scientists conduct some experiments to develop medicines? They conduct experiments on animals like rabbits to produce medicines for humans? And then further it has been well known that within the humans too we have varying immunity levels!

Duh!! Whats your point. Scientists conduct experiments on animals because of the ethical reasons. U don’t want half formulated drug to be administered on humans and kill them in the process, or do u.

Now science/basic chemistry also tells us if a substance burnt under ideal conditions its weight will alter. So y doesnt the weight of ghee alters? Is the science flawed then?

Gullibility has a limit – that’s what I thought, until today. Ghee has a very high melting point, that’s why apparently it seems nothing is happening. Try it at home. Havn’t u heard of lamps where ghee is the fuel. Watch a ghee lamp burn. Perhaps that will stop u from making such silly posts.

Also please enlighten y r ur fella foreigners shocked about cowdung now when infact it has been written in vedas that it was used as counter to radioactivity?

Congratulations! U have successfully graduated, and topped, from the RSS University of Pseudo Hinduism. That “radiation” was known in the vedic ages is a little OTT, leave cow dungs' ability to absorb radiation. AFAIK, NASA uses a chemical mix of Granite to make things radiation-proof and not cow-dung.

Next abt homeopathy

I don’t see the relevance here. May be some other time.

@cyberboy_kerala

Every quantum particle is aware of the whole thing going on the entire universe, its like the whole thing is being recorded and experienced.universe acts as it is conscious.Scientist are on their way to prove this, for eg if a bomb blast occurs in a big city it is possible to decode this event at that instant itself from a remote place or from the other end of our milky way, Amazing isn't?.Scientist is proving this by using a robot which moves randomly in a surface(much more have to be explained here).......this experiment is new,but its base is QM.You may soon see about this in articles as experiments are being conducted.

We are discussing "science" not "science fiction", like that crazy crap theory which says Black Hole is a port to a parallel universe.

....and we cant explain the whole universe with this simple algorithm

Well scientists are trying to do that only. First proposed and later dropped by Einstein, this theory is called “Super String Theory”. The idea is to reduce all the formula in the world to a single one, that will tie all these formula in a single sting.


@chatterjeesayan

Kid will be a kid. Anyway your first para contradicts everything u said so far and will say in future. Why ? Well, when u claim that u don’t know the “truth”, how can u even argue or for that matter, establish anything at all. When u don’t know the truth, how can u be so sure about anything. How do u know that u r right, or for that matter anything is. Similarly how can u say anybody is wrong. You don’t know the truth that your religion asks u to find, but you know what truth is to be told to other religion. Amazing.

Actually its pointless. I just hope that someday you will be able get beyond the narrow boundaries of religion and try to see everything, not from a religious point, but from the point of view of Humanity as whole.

BTW, I am yet to get an answer to this riddle:
If a Hindu converts to Islam[don't mean any offense. I chose Islam because is stands in contrast to Hindu belief in many ways than one], what happens to his “atma”, his belief, and all the baggage that comes with Hinduism. Does he continue to have the eternal atma or he looses it immediately.
CAVEAT: For all key-board happy junkies. If u say that "atma" continues to stay and behave as described by Hinduism, u would actually be saying Islam is wrong. If u say that it dies, u will be contradicting your own religion.

 

[chatterjeesayan]

Re: ***science Or God?***

PLEASE OUT OF THE SCIENTIFIC SUPERSTION,BE SCIENTIFIC MAN!!Please don't say irrational thing and put the blame on science.Again... be scientific man! Show ma one physicist who doesn't believe in God, the Truth.So you are saying that Enstein,Shroedinger were none!And how can you know that what you are seeing is true at all?Can you prove it with your so called science.But fortunately science is not like that...have science in its true flavour.Don't be SCIENTIFICALLY SUPERSTITIOUS....BE LOGICAL..AND BE READY TO APPRECIATE THE REAL "REAL".

" I just hope that someday you will be able get beyond the narrow boundaries of religion and try to see everything, not from a religious point, but from the point of view of Humanity as whole."

What you call science is not Science at all?Science is clear flow of logic,science is the methodical study of nature outside and inside.Science is what Einstein,Newton practised.ILLOGICAL PRATTLE AND SCIENCE HAS A HELL AND HEAVEN DIFFERENCE.CRYING OUT ONLY EVOLUTION...EVOLUTION..MAY BE ANYTHING BUT NOT SCIENCE.First try to realize science and then Religion.


"You don’t know the truth that your religion asks u to find, but you know what truth is to be told to other religion."

No,I've not realised God.If anyone says that he has,let me see this prophet first and bow my head down to his feet.I said that goal of life is to realize Truth,how know its nature before hand.Did Newton know what is Gravitation before discovering it?The genius discovered it and let the world know what it is.Truth is truth...we can't say anything more than that.How can you deny Truth?If there is no Truth,everything is false,we are false,our science is false...everything is false.

And Atman is deathless,it doesn't depend on whether you are a Hindu or a Muslim...a beast or a man.Because Atman is Truth.


And lastly I don't have enough time to say all the things again again and listen to all these illogical prattle...I'm not going to view this thread anymore...SO DON'T EXPECT MY ANSWER IN RETURN...YOU MAY SAY ANYTHING TO ME,TO YOUR HEART'S CONTENT...I CARE A HANG!!!!

@CYBERBOY


"Yeah, it is widely accepted that only goal of evolution is to pass the genes.Evolution is only a mincule part of the whole thing....and we cant explain the whole universe with this simple algorithm."

I DO COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOU,IT IS WHAT I WANT TO SAY.

 

[mediator]

Re: ***science Or God?***

This hallucinated world of mine does not tie me up in mindless dos and don’ts like your distorted reality. And tell u what, am loving it.

Sorry to say, but my reality is more practical and based on truth than being theoretical like yours so as to be believing in something theoretical so blindly that you overlook its fallacies. And tell u what I am loving it!!

Did u even read the *vedicganita.org that ur loving ur flawed science?? If u read the vedas and understand its meaning u'll love it more than u can!! Do u even know that NASA uses Vedic knowledge? Google if u know how to use it!!

Duh!! Whats your point. Scientists conduct experiments on animals because of the ethical reasons. U don’t want half formulated drug to be administered on humans and kill them in the process, or do u

Please dont talk about ethics, if they can kill animals in the process then its far from being ethical. U respect human life and I respect animal life too. BTW, I already told that humans too have diff. immunity levels. It seems u r trying to ignore the homeopathy point!!

Gullibility has a limit – that’s what I thought, until today. Ghee has a very high melting point, that’s why apparently it seems nothing is happening. Try it at home. Havn’t u heard of lamps where ghee is the fuel. Watch a ghee lamp burn. Perhaps that will stop u from making such silly posts.

Perhaps u shud read the debate from the start and the link I gave for ur convenience and that wud stop u from being a joke!! This point was already put forward by someone!! There is something called ideal conditions. Did u skip science classes in skool or wat? Since when did the melting point started coming under ideal conditions? So nobody is mocking u over ur gullibility, but m trying to suggest u to shed ur ignorance and be more practical!! and ofcors ->

Congratulations! U have successfully graduated, and topped, from the RSS University of Pseudo Hinduism. That “radiation” was known in the vedic ages is a little OTT, leave cow dungs' ability to absorb radiation. AFAIK, NASA uses a chemical mix of Granite to make things radiation-proof and not cow-dung.

laughable!! R U Out of words that u started making personal remarks?? May be u need a foreigner like many INDIANS, who don't believe what their countrymen say, to believe in. So read. What does RSS university... has to do here? ?

Cow dung smells very sweet when it is dry. It has many interesting properties including not holding radioactivity, and has been used as a shield in NASA's capsules!

I don’t see the relevance here. May be some other time.

Ofcors, when u r able to read and understand paragraphs and their relevance, links and debates then come and get enlightened!! We don't need illiterates who can't even follow up with debates and read what has been debated to be expert opining all around!! And then they keep crying that modern science is flawless and even think that it can used as a basis to
contradict something like Vedas which has been ackowledged by and amazes the scientists themselves and which has its practical importance and is working!!

 

[karnivore]

Re: ***science Or God?***

@chatterjeesayan
HA HA HA.
One angry kid, we got there. So finally......a poke in the bush and the cat is out of the bag. Now finally you can see that its one thing to read and talk of so called "truth" and it is another to get past the contradictions that the whole concept brings in.

...BE READY TO APPRECIATE THE REAL "REAL".[/QUOTE]
Now i hav to know what real "real" is from a kid who is perhaps not even out from school ??? Hmmmmm.......

Truth is truth...we can't say anything more than that.How can you deny Truth?If there is no Truth,everything is false,we are false,our science is false...everything is false.

A breakthrough discovery, i must say. And am i noting a little confusion here ? R u getting more and more obscure ? Because u see, "obscurantism" is the flip side of any religion.

And Atman is deathless,it doesn't depend on whether you are a Hindu or a Muslim...a beast or a man.Because Atman is Truth

There u go. Just as i expected. U r forcing an exclusive Hindu belief onto another religion which does not even believe in "ATMA", in the first place. So, one of us is wrong. Either we, Hindus or they Muslims. As a believer of Hindu hegemony, you obviously think, its them, the Muslims. How wonderful. And i am not even saying how, someone who claims to not know the truth, is absolutely sure that ATMA IS the TRUTH. I am giving u the benefit of doubt here, since you are a kid.

I hope i have been able to logically discuss the fallacy here. Thats why i find contradictions in Vivekananda. Any time u switch religion or place your self in a different pair of shoes, all his writings fall apart. Same is the case with Bible, Koran, Trpitak etc. And thats where science rules. With all its shortcomings it is never partial. Its same, if u r Hindu or Muslim or Christian. It is always the same.

Its a pity that u have decided not to view this thread. Would hav loved to see you around.

 

[karnivore]

Re: ***science Or God?***

@mediator

Sorry to say, but my reality is more practical and based on truth than being theoretical like yours so as to be believing in something theoretical so blindly that you overlook its fallacies. And tell u what I am loving it!!

Am glad that that you are loving it. Congratulations!!!!!

Did u even read the *vedicganita.org that ur loving ur flawed science?? If u read the vedas and understand its meaning u'll love it more than u can!! Do u even know that NASA uses Vedic knowledge? Google if u know how to use it!!

For once can u please prove how authentic that site is. Cauz u know, i hav this bad habit of not falling for any dime-a-dozen site. Some proof of its authenticity would be appreciated.
Are u sure NASA knows about this???
Tell me, 0 (zero) was discovered in India (along with ancient Egypt). Does that mean we invented half of computer codes.

Please dont talk about ethics, if they can kill animals in the process then its far from being ethical. U respect human life and I respect animal life too.

Glad to hear your love for animals. But how do u suppose the medicines should be tested. Please write to the WHO with your esteemed suggestions.

BTW, I already told that humans too have diff. immunity levels. It seems u r trying to ignore the homeopathy point!!

Yes they do. So. People born in hilly area are more adept with heights than people in the plains. Whats so mysterious about it. Its all gene, dude.

Perhaps u Shu read the debate from the start and the link I gave for ur convenience and that wud stop u from being a joke!! This point was already put forward by someone!! There is something called ideal conditions. Did u skip science classes in skool or wat? Since when did the melting point started coming under ideal conditions? So nobody is mocking u over ur gullibility, but m trying to suggest u to shed ur ignorance and be more practical!!

Hmmm......all you hav to do is light a lamp with ghee as fuel. You will get your answer. Is it very difficult for u to do. The "myth" will be busted in your own room. OH i get it. You are afraid that you will know the "truth"


But anyway............wasting my time.

 

[mediator]

Re: ***science Or God?***

For once can u please prove how authentic that site is. Cauz u know, i hav this bad habit of not falling for any dime-a-dozen site. Some proof of its authenticity would be appreciated.
Are u sure NASA knows about this???
Tell me, 0 (zero) was discovered in India (along with ancient Egypt). Does that mean we invented half of computer codes.

Authenticity? Do u want me to give u classified documents of NASA. Grow up!!
I guess ur really not up-to-date with technology. Do u know what "google" is? Now dont ask me to enlighten u about the English alphabet! If that site intrigues u then u can google for more. Atleast I am not expert opining like u. Who is saying we invented half of computers code though many brains in computing/development are Indians!!

I guess u r out of words and therefore talking absurd now! I am talking of concepts and practical working becoz of which ayurveda,vedic maths etc are used by braniacs all around the world now and u r talking about 0 and code? Laughable indeed!

Glad to hear your love for animals. But how do u suppose the medicines should be tested. Please write to the WHO with your esteemed suggestions.

Baah, here we have another one ur whinings!!

Yes they do. So. People born in hilly area are more adept with heights than people in the plains. Whats so mysterious about it. Its all gene, dude.

Do I need to repeat abt homeopathy in such cases now? U know, and still talking like a blind believer in modern science?

Hmmm......all you hav to do is light a lamp with ghee as fuel. You will get your answer. Is it very difficult for u to do. The "myth" will be busted in your own room. OH i get it. You are afraid that you will know the "truth"

Hmmm......all you hav to do is light a lamp with ghee as fuel. You will get your answer. Is it very difficult for u to do. The "myth" will be busted in your own room. OH i get it. You are afraid that you will know the "truth"


But anyway............wasting my time.

I told u to read the previous posts.
Wasting ur time? its called "TROLL"! Guess u really aren't used to reading previous posts! I guess u have nuthing to say now and thats why ur unnecessarily trolling! So I rest my case here or do u want to continue? Feel free to say yes!

Likewise I can give u more of such links, but y waste my eforts on someone who skipped science classes in skool, can't read previous replies and has a hard time opening and undertstanding the English in the links provided!! How tragic!

Read the links and then entertain me further!

 

[karnivore]

Re: ***science Or God?***

^^WOW. Seriously, WOW. I just finished reading the entire thread, specially yours [i am feeling a little dizzy, right now]. I hav to admit, that yes, your are absolutely right. You are just too smart for me. That all the world's scientific knowledge is a big lie and compared to your insights and wisdom, we stand a million miles away. Yes i was keeping it a secret. Now........Its out in the open and the stone is off my chest and i can breathe again. PHEW.

 

[zyberboy]

Re: ***science Or God?***

As with Albert Einstein, the greatest scientist the world has ever seen and will probably see, criticism is of different kind. He started his scientific quest, questioning god. But as he made discoveries he slowly became convinced that something called God exists. And that’s when he started to make mistakes. He became a staunch critique of “Theory of Quantum Mechanics”, simply it contradicted his concept of God. Remember his famous words “God does not play dice”, while he was referring to the essence of unpredictability of sub-atomic particles suggested by Quantum Mechanics. The scientific world stood hanging their jaw as more and more lab tests started to prove QM and Einstein became all the more adamant in proving his point. Today, QM is the core essence of studying sub-atomic particles.

This shows u r mistaken about Einstein .Einstein himself stated quite clearly, that he did not believe in a personal God.He believed in a orderly arrangement of matter which is against QM in which every thing is random,This is why he said "God does not play dice", its not about the god tat u r thinking.Both special theory of relativity AND QM explains matter but in different way, and both are unified in M-Theory/String Theory.


""It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly.""

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."

--Albert Einstein

We are discussing "science" not "science fiction", like that crazy crap theory which says Black Hole is a port to a parallel universe.

lolz


"Those who are not shocked when they first come across Quantum Theory cannot possibly have understood it."

----Niels Bohr

@karnivore
The Real truth about the world can be stranger than u can think off,and it seems it is to be too much for ur understanding.Who told u that science will always run parallel with your commonsense?,The science fiction's
r nothing when compared to the real truth.What i had said is true and scientist r on their way for complete proof.
This is the earlier version of the same experiment(the new experiment is slightly different),information spreads entire universe at quantum level.
*www.dreammanifesto.com/can-new-born-chickens-influence-a-robot.html


Do u believe QM as science fiction?
(already posted in this thread)
QM
> Matter can exist and not exist at the same time.

> An object can simultaneously exist two places at the same time(even across the milky way,for eg an atom can be observed in two places)

^^^^^^^^

Splitting atoms has been a routine task for nuclear physicists for the past half-century, ever since the first uranium reactor was created for the Manhattan Project during World War II. Smearing atoms, however - allowing them to appear in two places at once - is a different story

*findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_n26_v12/ai_18469259

Practical applications for teleportation, though not exactly the type seen in Star Trek, could be less than a generation away.According to a report released Thursday by Technical Insights, the first applications of teleportation will be in quantum computers and quantum cryptography, not human transport.
Physicists can already teleport tiny things, such as a beam of light or the angular spin of atomic nuclei. But physicists caution that teleportation research is still in the early development stage.

*www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/1999/05/19551

Quantum mechanics has had enormous success in explaining many of the features of our world. The individual behavior of the subatomic particles that make up all forms of matter - electrons, protons, neutrons, photons and so forth - can often only be satisfactorily described using quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics has strongly influenced string theory, a candidate for a theory of everything . It is also related to statistical mechanics.
Quantum mechanics shows that the materialistic common sense notion of reality is an illusion, i.e., that the objective existence of the world is an illusion. If the reader is familiar with the teachings of the mystics, this may sound familiar. Consider, for example, the following words written by a little-known Western mystic:

Listen to Niels Bohr, the pioneer of 20th century physics:
"An independent reality, in the ordinary physical sense, can neither be ascribed to the phenomena nor to the agencies of observation."

Consider the words of Shankara, the famous Hindu philosopher:
"All things -- from Brahma the creator down to a single blade of grass -- are. . .simply appearances and not real."

Compare with Werner Heisenberg, the inventor of quantum mechanics:
"If one wants to give an accurate description of the elementary particle. . .the only thing which can be written down as description is a probability function. But then one sees that not even the quality of being. . .belongs to what is described"

The Buddha, speaking about the true nature of reality, makes the following very similar claim:
"There is that which does not belong to materialism and which is not reached by the knowledge of philosophers who...fail to see that, fundamentally, there is no reality in external objects."

A simplified reading,

Quantum physics tells us that reality is far beyond human perception and intuition. In other words, our rational mind and common sense are just not capable of understanding the true nature of reality.
*www.successconsciousness.com/index_000014.htm
*www.sol.com.au/kor/11_01.htm

Only our consciousness is real which infact is part of the universal consciousness,which we r tunning into , and using it,like a radio tunes into a station and plays,but signals are all same for all instrument only difference is how it amplifies/use it.

 

[karnivore]

Re: ***science Or God?***

@cyberboy_kerala

This shows u r mistaken about Einstein .Einstein himself stated quite clearly, that he did not believe in a personal God.He believed in a orderly arrangement of matter which is against QM in which every thing is random,This is why he said "God does not play dice", its not about the god tat u r thinking.Both special theory of relativity AND QM explains matter but in different way, and both are unified in M-Theory/String Theory.


""It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly.""

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."

--Albert Einstein

Now we are down to splitting hair on the nitty-gritties of the character and type of GOD. Anyway.

Einstein believed in a "something powerful" outside the domain of every know "self", in a sense "The Creator". And thats what i was referring to as God, as believed by Einstein. He turned out to be a deeply religious man, but he stayed away from the parochialism of Zionism. The point i was trying to make is that even the greatest man of science can make serious mistakes because of a prejudice.
PS: If i am not mistaken, then the first comment of Einstein was in response to some news report that Einstein is a "worshiper".

> Matter can exist and not exist at the same time.

Well, actually matter can exist "anywhere" till u "see" where it exists

An object can simultaneously exist two places at the same time(even across the milky way,for eg an atom can be observed in two places)

Actually this "theory" is restricted within the sub-atomic world and not the "Space". The theory in that case is "deterministic", unlike the "uncertainty" theory of QM, and therein lies the biggest mystery of science. At planetary level it is deterministic, but at sub-atomic level it is uncertain. Einstein was not flustered for no reason.

The Real truth about the world can be stranger than u can think off,and it seems it is to be too much for ur understanding.Who told u that science will always run parallel with your commonsense?,The science fiction's r nothing when compared to the real truth.What i had said is true and scientist r on their way for complete proof

Let me admit that QM is indeed too much for me to grasp, and in that i join most of the scientific world. In fact, it is believed that there are actually a handful of scientists who can really understand QM.

QM is the theory of "bizarre". It supports everything that one can think of. If QM could be magnified to human scale it would give us a world of "impossible", like me and u walking through a stone wall, like me, having identical twins at any given place and time, etc. etc. And thats why it becomes so difficult to identify pseudo-science from science. Because at QM level "anything goes".

What u said is true only in parts. Its true that all sorts of research is on. Some are outright crazy and some are just as simple as water. What i referred to as "science fiction", is your notion that since QM supports, and no way contradicts, virtually everything, it is akin to Universe having "conscious".

When Rabindranath Tagore met Einstein, the Poet asked him if science can ever define "conscious". He replied that, may be not in this decade, perhaps not in this millennium, but someday, definitely. Well i am ready wait forever than believing in the mumbo-jumbo of Universe having "conscious".

Tell me, do u think a "stone" has "conscious". Now if u say "yes".......well than i have to admit that Tagore, Einstein and many other men of wisdom, excluding the religious buffoons, had got the idea of "conscious" all wrong.

.....the doctrine of a personal God interfering with natural events could never be refuted ... by science, for [it] can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot.
- Einstein

In other words, we will continue to lock our horns on this till eternity, cauz there will always be a grey area not explored by science, and religion thrives in that area of unknown.

 

[Yamaraj]

Re: ***science Or God?***

Tell me, do u think a "stone" has "conscious". Now if u say "yes".......well than i have to admit that Tagore, Einstein and many other men of wisdom, excluding the religious buffoons, had got the idea of "conscious" all wrong.

What is consciousness, if anything more than a word that stands for a few things related to human senses and cognition? There is certainly more to it, but we are incapable of looking anything past our own limitations and feelings.

How different are you from a stone, say at atomic or sub-atomic levels? Just as you are made up of millions upon millions of alive cells, your consciousness is also an abstraction of their collective cognition. If you can be self-aware because of the collective senses of millions of living cells that constitute you, how can you deny that the Universe is not, for it is also made of self-aware beings like us?

The problem with people and traditional scientific methods is that they separate the observer from the phenomena, which may work fine at a minuscule level in a laboratory, but fails miserably at levels higher or lower than that.

I suggest that you read some on quantum consciousness. Also, read this - *www.newscientist.com/article/mg141...aking-cosmologists-think-likebiologists-.html

Unfortunately, the article isn't free and you must register to read the whole thing. But the free excerpt should give you something to boot.

Nobody would argue that human beings appeared out of nothing. We are complex creatures, and could not have arisen 'just by chance' out of a brew of chemicals, even in some warm little pond of the kind envisaged by Charles Darwin. Simpler kinds of living organisms came first, and it took hundreds of millions of years of evolution on Earth to progress from single-celled life forms to complex organisms like ourselves.

Could something similar have happened with the Universe? It is a large complex system which, some cosmologists argue, cannot have appeared by chance. Simpler universes came first, they say, and it may have taken hundreds of millions of universal generations to progress to a universe as complex as our own.

Lee Smolin, professor of physics at the Center for Gravitational Physics and Geometry at the Pennsylvania State University, is a leading proponent of this idea, which also takes on board notions about baby universes developed by Andrei Linde of the Lebedev Physics Institute in Moscow and Stephen Hawking of the University of Cambridge. One of the jumping off points for such speculation is that the Universe we see around us seems to be in a very peculiar state, not 'typical' of the way a universe might be expected to emerge from a big bang. According to the basic laws of physics, universes should be much smaller and shorter-lived.

The puzzle has become more pressing as evidence has mounted that the Universe really did emerge from a big bang some 15 billion years ago. The evidence suggests that the Universe was born out of a singularity - a point of infinite density occupying zero volume - and that in the first split second the tiny seed containing all the mass and energy in the observable Universe went through a period of exponential expansion, known as inflation.

The key feature of inflation is that it stretches space-time - the three dimensions of space together with time - by a very large amount, smoothing out any irregularities that are present. Think of the difference between the wrinkled skin of a dry prune ...

 

[karnivore]

Re: ***science Or God?***

I am really getting tired of this garbage. But anyway....

@Yamaraj

What is consciousness, if anything more than a word that stands for a few things related to human senses and cognition? There is certainly more to it, but we are incapable of looking anything past our own limitations and feelings.

Lets take it slowly, shall we ? Right. Now tell me, what relevance this Universe, with all its grandeur and pomp, has to the "rock" which cannot perceive it in the first place. [Now don't ask me "How do u know that rock can't perceive ?"] The Universe is relevant to us, humans and animals because we can perceive it, in all its form, in one way or the other and not necessarily within its sensory boundaries and inclusive of the thought process. That is the essence of "conscious" as envisaged by these great men. And what i am talking about. If, "GOD" forbid, u get into a comma, as understood in medical sense, how is your "conscious" be of any help to u. Would it be of any relevance to u.

How different are you from a stone, say at atomic or sub-atomic levels?

Well, my sub-atoms a.k.a cells need resources to sustain it self. If it is not nourished properly, it will "die" an untimely death. In other words the "self" will die. Thats how my sub-atoms are different from that of a rock.

Just as you are made up of millions upon millions of alive cells, your consciousness is also an abstraction of their collective cognition.

Oh i see. Suppose i take my appendix out. Do u suppose it will be have a "conscious" outside my body. If it does not have a conscious of its own, how will it contribute to the "collective cognition".

If you can be self-aware because of the collective senses of millions of living cells that constitute you, how can you deny that the Universe is not, for it is also made of self-aware beings like us?

What a wonderful logic. I am getting wiser by the minute.

I suggest that you read some on quantum consciousness.

Do u even know that "aether" is the core concept of that garbage. And it was Einstein who proved that "aether" doesn't exist. Which in turn means.....oh well, who gives a rats a$$ anyway.

 

[mediator]

Re: ***science Or God?***

^^WOW. Seriously, WOW. I just finished reading the entire thread, specially yours [i am feeling a little dizzy, right now]. I hav to admit, that yes, your are absolutely right. You are just too smart for me. That all the world's scientific knowledge is a big lie and compared to your insights and wisdom, we stand a million miles away. Yes i was keeping it a secret. Now........Its out in the open and the stone is off my chest and i can breathe again. PHEW.

Who said all the world's knowledge is a big lie? But may be u shud dedicate the same amount of time, as u did in skools and may be P.hd, in reading the ancient scientific knowledge as well before making ur expert opinions!

 

[Yamaraj]

Re: ***science Or God?***

Lets take it slowly, shall we ? Right. Now tell me, what relevance this Universe, with all its grandeur and pomp, has to the "rock" which cannot perceive it in the first place.

You tell me. It was you who started talking about stones and consciousness.

Well, my sub-atoms a.k.a cells need resources to sustain it self. If it is not nourished properly, it will "die" an untimely death. In other words the "self" will die. Thats how my sub-atoms are different from that of a rock.

Cells are not sub-atomic by any means. And you are not getting the point.

Oh i see. Suppose i take my appendix out. Do u suppose it will be have a "conscious" outside my body. If it does not have a conscious of its own, how will it contribute to the "collective cognition".

Logic, sire, logic!
Likewise, billions of inanimate atoms constitute a living organism. How is it even possible if the atom isn't alive itself?

I expect you to post a reply only if you understand the topic.

What a wonderful logic. I am getting wiser by the minute.

Penrose and Smolin won't agree. Neither would I.

Do u even know that "aether" is the core concept of that garbage. And it was Einstein who proved that "aether" doesn't exist. Which in turn means.....oh well, who gives a rats a$$ anyway.

I'm sorry to say that you don't know what you're talking about. Quantum mechanics and quantum consciousness are NOT based on Aether by any means. And, Einstein wasn't the only physicist ever born. He made many mistakes and eventually distanced himself from the active scientific community because of his beliefs and disbeliefs in certain key research topics of that time.