Reservation System - Should it exist?

[karnivore]

@karnivore:

What makes you think that ONLY SC/ST/OBC students are capable of scoring more marks than other students in professional education when admitted with lesser marks in entrance examinations ? Don't you think the same applies to a HUGE number of general merit students too ? I have friends who were placed into low grade institutions in K-CET, but they score way way more in the common VTU semester examinations than most of their Peers in respectable colleges who got in only because they were an SC/ST/OBC.

Please do me a favour and try to read in the right context.
In any case, they are just as good or bad, as you me or any other general category students.

 

[karnivore]

Elitist mindset???

Surprised, aren't we ?

I am asking simple logical questions and you are again dodging them.

Sorry buddy, I am too tired to type a 10,000 worded reply. All that you have asked, have been replied before. Not going to repeat it. If you want to take it as “dodging”, be my guest.

As I have already mentioned that i have read all your posts, but still I have these doubts.

I admit, I am not a very articulate person. I tried my best and if it still didn’t answer your queries, then, well, can’t do anything about it.

How will i stop being the victim by you telling me to quit playing the victim?

For a start you can start contemplating the consequences of the “2000” year old discrimination.

Once again i am asking this and hoping for a direct answer...

Which college has ever denied admission to a person based on his/her cast?

First, no college can “deny” admission to a person “based on his/her cast”. No, not because, they chose not to, but because if they do, they will loose their license to run the institute, not to mention, that the owners and the managers would be jailed.

Secondly, after Mondal Commission report was partially implemented, the indirect discrimination was put on a check.

If you had really read “all” my posts, you would have found the above info. I admit, that the posts are way too long for persons who are not in the habit of reading a post longer than 1 sentence. But if you claim to have read “all” my posts, then I guess, I am allowed to have some expectations of you. So far, it has been a disappointment.

 

[hpotter606]

Surprised, aren't we ?

Sorry buddy, I am too tired to type a 10,000 worded reply. All that you have asked, have been replied before. Not going to repeat it. If you want to take it as “dodging”, be my guest.
I admit, I am not a very articulate person. I tried my best and if it still didn’t answer your queries, then, well, can’t do anything about it.
For a start you can start contemplating the consequences of the “2000” year old discrimination.
First, no college can “deny” admission to a person “based on his/her cast”. No, not because, they chose not to, but because if they do, they will loose their license to run the institute, not to mention, that the owners and the managers would be jailed.

Secondly, after Mondal Commission report was partially implemented, the indirect discrimination was put on a check.

If you had really read “all” my posts, you would have found the above info. I admit, that the posts are way too long for persons who are not in the habit of reading a post longer than 1 sentence. But if you claim to have read “all” my posts, then I guess, I am allowed to have some expectations of you. So far, it has been a disappointment.

I think you have the habit of loosing the point. So even after reading ALL your posts for 4 hours, I had to make sure that I get the whole POINT of your posts. Thus the questions.

I understand we have already established that we are talking about only the higher education and education till 12th should be free. Is the education till 12th being denied to SC/ST/OBC? If yes, who is denying it. If they are being denied education till 12th, then how is the reservation for higher education going to help them get the education till 12th? On the other hand if nobody is denying it, we can safely say that the only matter is of money. Since no college is denying admission on the basis of caste as you said before, again the only matter is of money. If both the sentences are true, it follows logically that assistance is needed only by the people having less money and it has nothing to do with caste of the person. Kindly point out the mistakes in this logic so that i understand your LOGIC.


BTW sometimes one line is enough to prove several points and sometimes even 20 pages cant prove a single point.

 

[karnivore]

@hpotter606

Ok, since you have already wasted 4 hours of your life, I think you deserve a proper answer.

Is the education till 12th being denied to SC/ST/OBC?

Largely, no. The reason is the quota system, where all schools, which depend on govt. funding require to admit certain number of backward class kids. The question of money doesn’t arise here (except for private commercial schools). There is a scheme called “Sarva Siksha” which is actually free education, along with a mid day meal.

Are colleges denying SC/ST/OBC?

Again largely no. The reason, once again, is existence of strict laws and of course, the quota system.

In order to apply the economic criterion for reservation, or however you may wish to term it, one will have to first ensure that the economic benefit is capable of reaching, equally to all the segments of the society. That can’t happen if all the segments of the society are not on the same platform. Reservation, or positive discrimination or affirmative action, attempts to bring these backward segments to the same platform as the rest of the segments. So if the reservation system, on the basis of this social backwardness - which in India translates into caste, while in some other countries it may be ethnicity - is abolished, the backward segments would continue to be backward and the so called economic benefit would never reach them.

Let me give you an example, with regard to “Sarva Shiksha Avijan”. Suppose there is no quota system. Would the economic benefit, in form of free education and mid day meal, reach the backward class. The answer, sadly is no. But because of quota system, at least some kids, belonging to the backward community, are getting within the folds of the economic benefit.

The same thing happens in higher education. Most of the govt. sponsored colleges are heavily subsidized, including IITs. But, how will the students of backward community take advantage of this system, if they are, on plea of being of a specific caste, not allowed to take admission. (Actually in higher education the dynamics are slightly different than secondary education) Laws and quota system ensure that they can take advantage of this economic benefit, dolled out by the govt.

In The Argumentative Indian, pg 209, Professor Amartya Sen notes:

“(T)here are many sources of disparity other than class: we must avoid the presumption that class encompasses all sources of disadvantages and handicap.”

You are doing just that, presuming that class (economic disparity) is “all sources of disadvantages and handicap”. That is the “mistake" in your logic.

...sometimes one line is enough to prove several points and sometimes even 20 pages cant prove a single point.

Correct. But the other side of the equation consists of the readers. Don't forget that.

 

[hpotter606]

Are colleges denying SC/ST/OBC?

[/FONT] Again largely no. The reason, once again, is existence of strict laws and of course, the quota system.

In order to apply the economic criterion for reservation, or however you may wish to term it, one will have to first ensure that the economic benefit is capable of reaching, equally to all the segments of the society. That can’t happen if all the segments of the society are not on the same platform. Reservation, or positive discrimination or affirmative action, attempts to bring these backward segments to the same platform as the rest of the segments. So if the reservation system, on the basis of this social backwardness - which in India translates into caste, while in some other countries it may be ethnicity - is abolished, the backward segments would continue to be backward and the so called economic benefit would never reach them.

Why wouldn't the economic benefit reach the only the people from SC/ST/OBC? On the contrary, if most of SC/ST/OBC are poor as you say then most of them would be able to take benefit of the system with economic condition as the criteria. The only reason you gave for reservation based on caste over reservation based on economic condition is that it will remove the backwardness of the SC/ST/OBC people, to remove social discrimination. Now what about the wealthy and middle class SC/ST/OBC people. Why should they get the benefit since they have already attained a high enough social status either through business or by service or by any other means? Why would anybody think less of them even after their achievements i.e. earning money by getting a good job or starting a business? Now if you say you don't know any SC/ST/OBC person who has done well in life, even then that will only mean that they are not having enough money since nobody can stop them from studying. Are people actually forcing them not the study that too only at higher education? Because if other people are not letting them study, why would they let the people from SC/ST/OBC study until 12th either?

Let me make one thing clear, I am not against people getting scholarships for their study. Even reservation based on economic condition. The same view has been expressed by many people here. I will still understand if you make the education for these people free until even the post graduation, but not for those who are already have money and status in society. Your entire argument that the reservation is to achieve equal footing collapses when the rich people from SC/ST/OBC are considered. Then again if we have come this far, why not give scholarships to people from open category if they have less money?

Also if you reserving a large amount of seats for them then why allow them to take admission in open quota too? That is what I call the peak of unfairness as that reduces the no of seats of open category people to a very small number. Dont people from open category deserve to study, to be happy? What about the poor open category people. They are getting crushed in this system. They cant get admission through management quota either like some other open category people. Its not like they wont get admission even if reservation was not there. Its happening because reservation has reduced the number of seats for open category.

The same thing happens in higher education. Most of the govt. sponsored colleges are heavily subsidized, including IITs. But, how will the students of backward community take advantage of this system, if they are, on plea of being of a specific caste, not allowed to take admission. (Actually in higher education the dynamics are slightly different than secondary education) Laws and quota system ensure that they can take advantage of this economic benefit, dolled out by the govt.

I think you are contradicting yourself here. In the last 2 posts you have admitted that the caste is not the criteria during admission in higher education institutes. Now you say the are not ALLOWED to take admission. Who is not allowing them? People in their village, institutions or their own community people are forcing them not to study? Also the amount of study they do is in their hand and nobody else can do anything about it. And again, intelligence is not dependent on the amount of money they have or their social backwardness. If they need money to study, they can ask government to give them loans which they can repay when they pass out from these institutions. Again this has nothing to do with social backwardness since this is the issue of money not social discrimination. I am asking how being of a socially backward class stopping them from having an equal footing if they have enough money.

You are doing just that, presuming that class (economic disparity) is “all sources of disadvantages and handicap”. That is the “mistake" in your logic.

Again you made a statement without any logical reasoning. Which other types of DISPARITY that exist? Are wealthy SC/ST/OBC having problem regarding study or admission due to these disparities? If yes, then in what way. This is the most important question of all and please reply to this one with logical reasoning and examples. I have seen enough wealthy SC/ST/OBC people who don't require reservation but still using it. Of-course if they can take benefit of it, they will take it, I am not blaming them. What I am saying is that they dont need it. So there is no reason to give them that benefit. Again if you argue that they have suffered for 2000 years and lets say their father was born in poverty and made it on his own, this is not true only for the people from SC/ST/OBC category. My own grandfather was born in extreme poverty and really worked hard. He was denied education by his own family due to family prejudice against education and had to leave the house to study. He made it on his own. I have seen your reply to a similar situation somebody explained before in which you said that he was not from backward class. Even if what you say is true, social discrimination now is very less as compared to 1930s. Also as you said they are given free education until 12th with free midday meals which wasn't the case at that time. So the situation as improved further reducing use of reservation.

Also you are not considering the effects of reservation on the wealthy SC/ST/OBC people. Their children study less, they actually study less, since they know they can use reservation. Did you know that? If reservation was less , lets say 10%, then there would be competition, but that is not the case since so much reservation is present. You are giving them 50% reservation + any amount of seats they want from open category!

One more point of view to look at reservation is the divide and rule policy adapted by the government. Are you even considering the effects of breaking the nation based on their caste and religion? Do you think when a line is crossed open category people are just going to sit back and take the beating?

 

[MetalheadGautham]

Please do me a favour and try to read in the right context.
In any case, they are just as good or bad, as you me or any other general category students.

Exactly. The only difference between SC/ST/OBC students and other students is that the former have a darker past. Academically speaking they are both EQUAL.

And answer hpotter606's questions first.

What makes you think that SC/ST/OBC students can't get economic aid ? PSU Banks here give priority loans to these students over other students. And no respectable institution would deny admission to a student because he/she is a SC/ST/OBC. Institutes only care about 2 things often - Respect and Money. As long as he studies and gets a great job and brings up the average pay rate of campus placement students and as long as he pays his fees, he faces absolutely no discrimination. The former needs the student to have entered on the same terms as GM students.

 

[vamsi_krishna]

MHG,IMO,

Reservation system should exist on the basis of economic in-equalites. And the persons who are physically or mentally retarded. But it should not be based on cast. I've seen many SC/ST/BC people who have multi storied building and seen bramhins who do preast work in 3 tempels to earn 500rs a month for temple and living in very pathetic situations. Who's ass is kicked when his son went to EAMCET counseling.

It's a undeniable fact that SC/ST/BC peoples are facing discrimiations in many places(Including my small village). But I'm glad that people's way of thinking is different in metro/cosmos.

I'm a guy who falls under OC. what i am supposed to get after BC,SC,ST,women,Handicap, OBC, minority quota of reservations..

 

[karnivore]

hpotter606

Ok kid. One more time, although you haven't said anything new. Same old canards.

Why wouldn't the economic benefit reach the only the people from SC/ST/OBC?

Because of the social ostracism. Economic benefits are institutionalized, and unless one gets within the folds of the institutes (which include primary level schools), one can’t get the benefits. Govt. doesn’t go door to door giving out money, in case you are wondering. I thought I had explained, although briefly, how the institutionalized economic benefits operate. It this quota system that brings the backward class to the institutes. Without quota, they will simply be left out of the loop.

Unless of course, you are denying that social ostracism exists. Are you now ?

Now what about the wealthy and middle class SC/ST/OBC people. Why should they get the benefit since they have already attained a high enough social status either through business or by service or by any other means?

First, this is called shifting of goal post.

Second, you haven’t read all my posts, because I have addressed this issue more number of times than any other. But for you I will say this once more. Ideally they shouldn’t. But they do, that is a fact and that is a shame. But, I have asked to many members, give me some data that these people exist in more number than the impoverished backward classes, that the most backward class students in the colleges, not one or two colleges mind you, but cumulatively, come from this socially backward but economically affluent class. I am still waiting for such data. Hopefully you can provide some now.

I however stand by whatever I had said earlier. That exceptions don’t make a rule. That, just because some people are taking undue advantage of a system, that doesn’t mean that the system is to be scrapped. If that’s how it went, we would be left with a society with no law at all.

Are people actually forcing them not the study that too only at higher education? Because if other people are not letting them study, why would they let the people from SC/ST/OBC study until 12th either?

Basically you are now down to denying that caste discrimination exists. That is a little nauseating, frankly. Yes, society does force them not to study, and not just at the level of higher education, but through out. It is because of this, that reservation exists. So that, they can get a fair chance.

Your entire argument that the reservation is to achieve equal footing collapses when the rich people from SC/ST/OBC are considered.

Really. Ok here’s the deal. You get me the following data:

a) percentage of “rich/middle” class backward caste compared to poor backward class (preferably countrywide data).
c) their (“rich/middle” class backward caste) concentration in rural areas compared to cities (both percentage and absolute figure).
d) their (“rich/middle” class backward caste) concentration in school/colleges (in totality) compared to poor backward class (both percentage and absolute figure).

If the data show that the “rich/middle” class backward caste are in overwhelming majority in all the segments, I will concede defeat. Till then, my point is far from “collapsing”. And if you can’t back up your assertion, with data, I will expect you to do the honourable thing and accept that you are merely speculating.

Then again if we have come this far, why not give scholarships to people from open category if they have less money?

Scholarships exist, soft loans exist.

Also if you reserving a large amount of seats for them then why allow them to take admission in open quota too?

For one thing, the “open” quota will not longer remain “open” and it will then become reserved for non-backward community. This in turn would require an explicit admission by the govt. that non-backward community requires reservation and also a declaration of the basis on which it has reached this decision.

For another, the system of quota is a form of affirmative action, which implies helping those who need help for various reasons. The open quota is for those who don’t.

I think you are contradicting yourself here. In the last 2 posts you have admitted that the caste is not the criteria during admission in higher education institutes. Now you say the are not ALLOWED to take admission.

It would have saved you a whole lot of typing, if you had paid some attention to my previous post and taken some time off to think. You missed a key sentence: “[FONT=&quot]Suppose there is no quota system[/FONT]”. Which means, that they are “ALLOWED” because of quota system (and strict law), but hadn’t there been one, they wouldn’t have.

Also the amount of study they do is in their hand and nobody else can do anything about it.

You mean after their day job of cobbling or cleaning your sewer or something similar like that. Yes they have so much time after that.

Again this has nothing to do with social backwardness since this is the issue of money not social discrimination.

I am now convinced that you do not really understand what is social discrimination and the extent of it within our society.

Which other types of DISPARITY that exist?

Among others, including caste, how about on sex and physically disadvantage.

Are wealthy SC/ST/OBC having problem regarding study or admission due to these disparities? If yes, then in what way. This is the most important question of all and please reply to this one with logical reasoning and examples.

See above.

So the situation as improved further reducing use of reservation.

It is because of reservation that the situation has improved, only marginally and not nearly enough, not despite it. You haven’t paid much attention to the statistics that I have quoted in various posts. This one is a repetition, with a few addition:
In 1991, the literacy rates among SC males and females in the rural areas, were, 46% and 19.5%. In 2001, the corresponding rates were, 53.7% and 37.6%. Increase of 7.8 and 18.1 percent points, respectively. Among non-SC/ST males and females, in 1991, in rural areas, the literacy rates were, 63.4% and 35.4%. In 2001, the corresponding rates were, 74.3% and 50.2%. That is an increase of 10.9 and 14.8 percent points, respectively. The interesting points that come out of this is:

1. SC females in 2001 were marginally ahead of what the non-SC/ST females were in 1991. Roughly speaking, they are about 10 years behind their non-SC/ST counterparts.

2. SC males in 2001 were still lagging behind what the non-SC/ST males were in 1991, by at least 9.7% points. They are lagging even miserably. This is understandable, because it is mostly the males who go out for work. So much for ample time to study.

3. The rate of literacy among SC females is greater than that of non-SC/ST females, which means, that they will catch up with their non-SC/ST counterparts, eventually

4. The rate of literacy among SC males is far less than that of non-SC/ST males. This means, that the gap, instead of closing is still increasing.

Exactly which part of that statistics tell you that the “use of reservation” is reduced.

Also you are not considering the effects of reservation on the wealthy SC/ST/OBC people.

I am getting tired now.

Do you think when a line is crossed open category people are just going to sit back and take the beating?

It is this elitist mindset that I talked of earlier.

 

[karnivore]

The only difference between SC/ST/OBC students and other students is that the former have a darker past. Academically speaking they are both EQUAL.

It is not about “darker past”, but the consequences of the “darker past”. And yes, they are academically equal. Thank you for finally realizing that. Socially, they are not.

What makes you think that SC/ST/OBC students can't get economic aid ? PSU Banks here give priority loans to these students over other students. And no respectable institution would deny admission to a student because he/she is a SC/ST/OBC. Institutes only care about 2 things often - Respect and Money. As long as he studies and gets a great job and brings up the average pay rate of campus placement students and as long as he pays his fees, he faces absolutely no discrimination. The former needs the student to have entered on the same terms as GM students.

In a perfect society, perhaps yes. As with loans to students, you will have to be a student first to apply for loan. In most cases you have to first show to the bank that you have secured confirmed admission to a college and only then you will get the loan. No admission no loan.

As with denying admission, read Mondal Commission report. This is the umpteenth number of times I am asking you guys to argue on the basis of data not emotion.

 

[MetalheadGautham]

It is not about “darker past”, but the consequences of the “darker past”. And yes, they are academically equal. Thank you for finally realizing that. Socially, they are not.

You mean after their day job of cobbling or cleaning your sewer or something similar like that. Yes they have so much time after that.

Lemme just tell you this: Not every SC/ST/OBC is a guy who cleans the sewers and tries to study in his part time. You have got a perfectly wrong picture of the country. In some remote villages ? Yes but in rest of India ? No.

90% of those who get seats through reservation are otherwise perfectly normal kids who don't deserve any such special treatment.

And you are once again going back to indirectly seeming to state that Economic Reservation alone should exist and not caste based reservation. Sons of cobblers, those who work at shops with little time to study - they are not SC/ST/OBC people alone. And its also them who need reservation, or atleast special colleges where they can atleast get a chance to graduate into the mainstream.

In a perfect society, perhaps yes. As with loans to students, you will have to be a student first to apply for loan. In most cases you have to first show to the bank that you have secured confirmed admission to a college and only then you will get the loan. No admission no loan.

And obviously banks won't give loans without you first confirming your admission. What's wrong with that ?

And most top private universities have tie-ups with banks for offering instant loans during admission while top central universities like IITs and NITs are such that even showing on the internet that you have been offered a seat in the online councelling is enough to get a loan.

Actually its a lot easier for SC/ST/OBC students to get a loan than other students. By lot I mean a LOT.

These two coupled together ==> instant education loans for reserved students.

As with denying admission, read Mondal Commission report. This is the umpteenth number of times I am asking you guys to argue on the basis of data not emotion.

Data collected when ?

Data collected from which colleges ? IITs ? NITs ? Respectable private institues like BITs, MIT, VIT, SRM, RVCE, etc ? Or just tukada local degree colleges where it doesn't matter that you even GET the degree ?

 

[karnivore]

MetalheadGautham

You have got a perfectly wrong picture of the country.

If you say so. Btw, where is this “rest of India”. How big is this “rest of India”, in terms of population compared to the other rest of India.

Census 2001 somebody? Anybody?

90% of those who get seats through reservation are otherwise perfectly normal kids who don't deserve any such special treatment.


Where did you get this “90%” figure. Which govt document, which research, which survey. Is it publicly available document or just something that resides inside someone’s arse. Back it up or take a hike.

And you are once again going back to indirectly seeming to state that Economic Reservation alone should exist and not caste based reservation.

Whose papa was Sita ?

And obviously banks won't give loans without you first confirming your admission. What's wrong with that ?

Nothing. The question is not of bank procedure but of first cause. You don’t get a loan until your admission is confirmed. So it brings you back to square one, where you have to ensure that you get admission. Only after that does the question of loan kicks in. Therefore admission is the first cause.

See where am going with this?

Data collected from which colleges ? IITs ? NITs ? Respectable private institues like BITs, MIT, VIT, SRM, RVCE, etc ? Or just tukada local degree colleges where it doesn't matter that you even GET the degree ?

Mondal commission collected data from the IITs and BITs. During that time, there weren’t private colleges. Sarcasm looks good if you actually know what you are talking about. Otherwise it makes you look like a fool.

 

[MetalheadGautham]

If you say so. Btw, where is this “rest of India”. How big is this “rest of India”, in terms of population compared to the other rest of India.

Census 2001 somebody? Anybody?

Census 2001 ? Hmm... 8 years from then ? A 10 year old then would now be seeking admissions to college now.

Where did you get this “90%” figure. Which govt document, which research, which survey. Is it publicly available document or just something that resides inside someone’s arse. Back it up or take a hike.

A survay of common colleges. And most government documents you refer to are outdated POS.

Whose papa was Sita ?

Not mine. Again deviating from a question.

Nothing. The question is not of bank procedure but of first cause. You don’t get a loan until your admission is confirmed. So it brings you back to square one, where you have to ensure that you get admission. Only after that does the question of loan kicks in. Therefore admission is the first cause.

See where am going with this?

Yes. I clearly see where you are going with this. But at the same time its perfectly right that you have to ENSURE that you get admission. In my world (where I lack reservation) I do it by studying hard and passing entrance exams for the college I want to join. If someone can't do that its HIS problem.

Mondal commission collected data from the IITs and BITs. During that time, there weren’t private colleges. Sarcasm looks good if you actually know what you are talking about. Otherwise it makes you look like a fool.

Indeed. In which year ?

And back to the part about "indirect discrimination". Do you realize that the "indirect discrimination" happens because meritorious students are pissed off that undeserving students get a seat only because they come from a reserved caste.

If there was NO reservation, there would be no indirect discrimination starting from the batch of students where EVERYONE joins with the same benchmark.

Do you know that even in colleges where there are quotas like "NRI Quota" which are payment seats there is a certain form of discrimination against the students who got in purely by money by those who came through hard work and merit ? Its just subduded because the power of money ensures that the effect of discrimination is lesser. But that's a totally different topic.

The bottom line is that there is ALWAYS some form of resentful feeling among those who get into an institution through merit against those who get into it via easier terms. Merit students almost always feel proud (and rightly so) at having reached where they are after achieving highest percentile scores.

 

[hpotter606]

@karnivore
You are unbelievable dude. I see now why mediator got tired of replying to your posts. First you say social discrimination exists. On the other hand you yourself have no firsthand knowledge of it. Have you surveyed these areas you say have social discrimination? Have you been to every single of the village or even majority of villages? I am sure you haven't. As i have already said my best friend is from small village in Bihar and he also said social discrimination does not exists anymore, though it existed in the past. As he lives in the region that you keep talking about and he has made it without any reservation, I think thats more than enough data to understand who has got the right picture of the social discrimination. One more thing you keep contradicting yourself on is the examples. You keep giving me examples of poor people and still you refuse to believe that economic reservation would be better. Again and again i keep saying this, if 90% of reserved people are poor, they would still be able to take benefit of reservation based on economic condition as criteria. You keep ignoring this simple logic and keep telling me that they will not get the benefit. If they can get a caste certificate, surely its not so hard to show amount of money they earn!

You are asking us to give data on wealthy SC/ST/OBC. Have you even read the mandal commission report? Have you heard about the creamy layer criteria suggested by them and ignored by government. Isnt that DATA? I will tell you the fault in your logic. You believe since the number of wealthy people is much less than poor, most poor people will get benefit (which is an economic criteria by the way). Once again you are displaying your ignorance about reality when you say these types of things. The total number of seats in institutions is much less than total no poor people for one thing. Then you are also ignorant about how many poor SC/ST/OBC get to these institution. I can tell you because i just completed my engineering and you on the other hand have no first hand knowledge in this case. Most of them dont need it.

Also you are saying SC/ST/OBC will be denied admission if quota system does not exit which is totally wrong as the people will be jailed if they do something like that and not because there is a quota system but because that will be the violation of constitutional rights of people of India.

If you still say that social discrimination exits, then again your logic fails. Why? Because it exits only for the poor SC/ST/OBCs. So they come under less money criteria and so they still get the benefit of reservation. If people are not letting them study when they have got reservation on economic basis, why would they let them study when caste based reservation exists? Isnt that illogical? The people you say need reservation, will get benefit either way. This is the point i am stating all the time and you keep ignoring it since you cant answer the questions. You are ignoring that they will still get the benefit under economic criteria and if they are not getting it in economic criteria there is no way they will get it just because the system is caste based. Got it?

BTW do you even know what elitism is? If you dont, read it on wikipedia. If you dont trust wiki then read it somewhere else, but read and understand first and then talk. Also i was referring to riots that this scheme will cause.


Here is the simple way for you to understand my logic.

Poor SC/ST/OBC -> Come under reservation based on caste as well as economic condition
Rich SC/ST/OBC -> Come under reservation base on caste only
Poor non SC/ST/OBC -> Come under reservation based on economic condition only.
Rich non SC/ST/OBC -> Dont come under any type of reservation

Categories which need reservation
1. Poor SC/ST/OBC
2. Poor non SC/ST/OBC

Categories which don't need reservation
1. Rich SC/ST/OBC (doesnt matter if they exist or not since they dont need it)
2. Rich non SC/ST/OBC

Schemes which cover the categories which need reservation
->Reservation based on economic condition.

Consequences of using a caste based reservation scheme
1. Poor SC/ST/OBC get reservation
2. Rich SC/ST/OBC get reservation and use most of it. (dont need)
3. Poor non SC/ST/OBC dont get reservation (need)
4. Rich non SC/ST/OBC dont get reservation.

Hence proved

Another logic regarding social discrimination
1. People dont let the poor SC/ST/OBC study.
2. People cant do anything to rich SC/ST/OBC (doesnt matter if they exist or not)
3. People let the poor SC/ST/OBC study because of reservation only
4. people wont let them study if reservation based on caste does not exist.
5. Now tell me why wont they let the same SC/ST/OBC study if they are still getting reservation under economic condition.
6. Why are the people letting SC/ST/OBC study till 12th only and what happen only at the time of higher education study? He/she is going to leave his house to study in the city anyway.

Having rich SC/ST/OBC also reduces the number of poor SC/ST/OBC to get the reservation but you wouldnt mind since you are hell bent of destroying India at any cost.

Also while you are at it, you should change your medieval mindset.


One thing i forgot to mention is that reservation is needed (if its needed) only because the number of seats for higher education is less. The problem can be solved by creating new institutions with the help of private companies which care only about money so are bound to give good education for their own sake. So there wont be any need for reservation. These companies wont care about caste of the person when admitting them as they dont have to do vote bank politics to survive giving equal opportunities to all.

Lets believe for the moment that reservation is actually helping the SC/ST/OBC in some way to gain status and money(isnt this the whole point of reservation?) faster than any other way. Is the fastest way the best way all the time? You are simply taking something from one person and giving it to another. Wouldnt it be better if both have it? Even if both can have it, why will you choose a way only one person can have it? And please dont tell me there isnt a way both can have the same thing. So many ways have been already proposed that i wont bore you with all of those any more.

I think the main problem here is you are trying to achieve a different goal than i am trying to achieve. If i go by my way, i will achieve my goal. If you go by your way, you will achieve your goal. So i think i am right and you think you are right too.
This defeats the whole purpose of having a debate since we are not having the debate to achieve the same goal. As long as this is the case, there is now way a conclusion can be reached.

Anyway nice talking to you. Inform it here if you change the goal and want to have an actual debate.

 

[karnivore]

Here goes another post, to the sewer that is.

First you say social discrimination exists. On the other hand you yourself have no firsthand knowledge of it. Have you surveyed these areas you say have social discrimination? Have you been to every single of the village or even majority of villages? I am sure you haven't.

You know jack about me or my profession. Let it remain that way.

As i have already said my best friend is from small village in Bihar and he also said social discrimination does not exists anymore, though it existed in the past. As he lives in the region that you keep talking about and he has made it without any reservation, I think thats more than enough data to understand who has got the right picture of the social discrimination.

A country of 100+ crores and experience of one is “enough” ? You sure you are not insane ?

One more thing you keep contradicting yourself on is the examples. You keep giving me examples of poor people and still you refuse to believe that economic reservation would be better. Again and again i keep saying this, if 90% of reserved people are poor, they would still be able to take benefit of reservation based on economic condition as criteria. You keep ignoring this simple logic and keep telling me that they will not get the benefit. If they can get a caste certificate, surely its not so hard to show amount of money they earn!

Yes it is. Clue – BPL certificates

You are asking us to give data on wealthy SC/ST/OBC. Have you even read the mandal commission report? Have you heard about the creamy layer criteria suggested by them and ignored by government. Isnt that DATA?

Is that how you are going to argue now. Anyway. Yes, I have read Mandal Commission report, not in entirety though. And yes, I know what is creamy layer and I also know, the impediments of selecting the creamy layer, which I am sure you do not have too much of an idea. If you had, you wouldn’t have raised the issue, here.

I will tell you the fault in your logic. You believe since the number of wealthy people is much less than poor, most poor people will get benefit (which is an economic criteria by the way). Once again you are displaying your ignorance about reality when you say these types of things. The total number of seats in institutions is much less than total no poor people for one thing. Then you are also ignorant about how many poor SC/ST/OBC get to these institution……Most of them dont need it

1st bold: To put it correctly, socio-economic criteria. The term “socio” makes this criteria unique.

2nd bold: It is this “Most” that I am trying to get a figure on. One of your friends has pulled a figure right out of his butt. What are you going to do. Pull it from your own or his ? Almost every anti-reservationist, on this forum is using this excuse. Now if this is such a common experience, then it shouldn’t be too difficult to pull a figure from somewhere.

Also you are saying SC/ST/OBC will be denied admission if quota system does not exit which is totally wrong as the people will be jailed if they do something like that and not because there is a quota system but because that will be the violation of constitutional rights of people of India.

This I got from Mandal Commission report. Previously, before part of Mandal Commission was implemented and un-occupied quotas were not frozen, IITs and BITs used an ingenious method. They simply didn’t fill there quota and in some cases they just wouldn’t fill a single seat (that happened with BITs). The un-occupied quotas were then filled up by general quota students and needless to say, rampant corruption ensued. That’s why Mandal Commission froze the quotas. Even then, IITs do not fill up their quota, since, they are not obliged to.

Denial doesn’t have to be direct. There are ten thousand ways of bending a rule without breaking it.

If you still say that social discrimination exits, then again your logic fails. Why? Because it exits only for the poor SC/ST/OBCs. So they come under less money criteria and so they still get the benefit of reservation. If people are not letting them study when they have got reservation on economic basis, why would they let them study when caste based reservation exits? Isnt that illogical?

Once again, you are ignoring the “socio” part of the “socio-economic” criteria. Professor Sen to the rescue again.

“The blighting of the lives of Dalits or people from other disadvantaged castes, or of members of Scheduled Tribes, is particularly severe when the caste or tribal adversities are further magnified by abject penury” (The Argumentative Indian, pg 207)

Since you are an engineer, you know it better than me – Garbage In, Garbage Out or GIGO. If premise is wrong, the conclusion would be wrong.

Your premise:

The caste discrimination is essentially, due to economic disparity and the existence of rich/middle class backward caste, who are able to carry on with their lives/vocations/professions, without discrimination, prove that caste discrimination is actually another form of economic discrimination. Therefore removing economic disparity will automatically remove caste based discrimination

Your conclusion:

Reservation should be based on economic criteria, since it is the primary basis of discrimination.

Wrong premise, wrong conclusion. The reality is just the opposite, as far as SC/ST/OBCs are concerned.

From “Economic exclusion & poverty in India” by Sukhadeo Thorat:

Broadly speaking, social exclusion can be defined as “the process through which individuals or groups are wholly or partially excluded from full participation in the society within which they live.” The concept rightly focuses on both the processes by which social and economic institutions exclude groups, and the multidimensional nature of the adverse consequences experienced by those who are excluded.

Social exclusion is group-based in nature. Economic exclusion or discrimination affects whole groups in a society, independent of the income, productivity, or merit of individuals within the group. Anyone can be excluded from access to markets because of lack of income, or from employment on the grounds of low productivity, or from admission to educational institutions on the basis of low merit. In the case of group-based exclusion, however, the basis for exclusion is group identity and not the economic or productive characteristics of the specific individual. While exclusion does result in the denial of economic opportunities—such as access to capital assets, development of skills, and education—the originating cause is not lack of income, productivity, or merit but rather the individual’s group identity.

It is quite clear that in so far as exclusion and discrimination involve the denial of access to resources, employment, education, and public services, they certainly impoverish the lives of excluded individuals. Economic theory also implies that such discrimination can hamper economic growth by reducing efficiency. Labor market discrimination causes less than optimal allocation of labor among firms and sectors (given that those who are discriminated against receive a lower wage than their marginal product), and it reduces the effort expended by workers who perceive themselves to be discriminated against. Discrimination also results in inefficiency by reducing the magnitude of investments in human capital by discriminated groups and by reducing the return to any human capital investments made. Discrimination is thus a concern not only for equity but also for economic growth, and in this way it affects poverty both directly by adversely affecting the income distribution and indirectly by affecting economic growth.

(For the uninitiated, it means, that social exclusion, read discrimination, directly and indirectly results in economic backwardness.)

It is important to recognize the uniqueness of caste discrimination. The caste system involves exclusion and discrimination in multiple market and nonmarket transactions and societal interactions. Exclusion for scheduled castes (those at the very bottom of the caste hierarchy) may involve:

1. limited access to markets such as land, inputs, consumer goods, and social services;

2. differences between prices charged or received and market prices;

3. exclusion from participating in certain categories of jobs and sale of certain consumer goods such as vegetables or milk because the occupational and physical touch of individuals from scheduled castes is considered “polluting”;

4. discrimination in the use of public services such as roads, temples, and water bodies; and

5. physical or residential exclusion that prevents contact with community members and full participation in community life.

... Those in scheduled castes (SCs) have a lower average level of expenditure than those in other castes, resulting in a rural poverty rate of 35 percent among SCs compared with 21 percent among other castes, and an urban poverty rate of 39 percent among SCs compared with 15 percent among other castes. Individuals from scheduled castes are less likely to own land or any productive assets to enable self-employment; they are more likely to depend on casual wage labor for income, resulting in higher levels of underemployment; and, when they are employed, they receive lower average wages that their non–SC counterparts.

Historically, in addition to being excluded from property rights, SCs have also been denied rights to education. High dropout rates, poor-quality education, and discrimination in education are some of the problems children from scheduled castes have faced. As a result, there are large gaps in literacy rates and education levels between children of SCs and those of other castes.

(The following part is more relevant for now. So keep your eyes peeled)

The government’s approach draws mainly from provisions of equality for SCs laid out in the constitution and is influenced by two considerations: to overcome the multiple deprivations that SCs inherited from their past exclusion, and to provide protection against ongoing exclusion and discrimination.

The result is a twofold strategy as follows:

1. Anti-discriminatory or protective measures. The Protection of Civil Rights Act (1955) and Prevention of Atrocities Act (1989) outlawed “untouchability” and other forms of discrimination in public places or in the provision of public services and provided legal protection to SCs in the event of acts perpetrated against them by higher castes. The practice of reservations in government services, state-supported educational institutions, and various democratic bodies also falls under this category. Reservations are used by the government to ensure proportional participation of SCs in public spheres.

2. Developmental and empowerment measures. In the absence of legal affirmative action policy in the private sector, the State has used general programs to promote economic, educational, and social empowerment for SCs. These programs have been primarily undertaken as a part of anti-poverty programs that target or fix specific quotas for SCs where possible, as follows:

• Measures for economic empowerment include improving the ownership of capital assets; enhancing the business capabilities and skills of SC members; distributing surplus land to landless households; subsidizing credit and input provision to SC households; providing employment generation schemes to address the lack of employment opportunities in the lean season; and providing programs to support the release and rehabilitation of bonded laborers, given that SCs constitute about 61 percent of bonded laborers in India.

• Educational development programs comprise about half of the central government’s spending on SCs. These programs include improvements in educational infrastructure in areas predominantly populated by SCs; admission to educational institutions through quotas and other measures; financial support for education at various levels; remedial coaching; and special hostels for boys and girls from SCs. Under all of these schemes, girls are given particular attention.

• Additional schemes focus on improving SC access to civic amenities like drinking water, housing, sanitation, electricity, roads, and public food distribution, since SCs often live in segregated residential areas with unequal access to these civic amenities.

To summarize the above:

Social discrimination in the name of caste, results in not just social backwardness, i.e inadequate representation in the society, but economic backwardness as well – arising directly and indirectly from the social discrimination. In other words, for the SC/ST/OBC, in addition to the usual causes, one major cause of their economic backwardness is social backwardness resulting from social discrimination, which is unique to these groups. Thus, for the SC/ST/OBC, social discrimination is first cause of economic backwardness.

*i180.photobucket.com/albums/x31/trash609/1.jpg

If the govt. concentrated only on the aspect of economic backwardness, then three important pieces of the puzzle would remain unaddressed. “Social discrimination”, “social backwardness” arising out of social discrimination (both of past and current) and “economic backwardness” arising out of such social discrimination. Since, the social discrimination and the resulting backwardness remain unaddressed, the resultant economic backwardness would continue to exist, even though, by some miracle, all the “other causes” are somehow removed.

This in turn means, that the disparity between the general caste and the lower caste, will continue to exist, both from social point of view as well as economic point of view. The govt. therefore adopts two fold policy to meat these three aspects:

Social discrimination: through enactment of laws (although, implementation leaves a hell of a lot to be desired) and this is primarily to address current discrimination.

Social backwardness: through reservation on the basis of caste, to ensure, greater representation of the backward community in the society and primarily, to undo the consequences of social discrimination in the past.

Economic backwardness: through numerous poverty eradication programs and sops, e.g. free education, mid day meal, subsidizing higher education, enabling soft loans to the unemployed etc.

This should explain the theoretical part of why reservation on the basis of caste is preferred over economic criterion. Because, only this form of reservation can address the social issue, which is, in any case the primary objective of caste based reservation. Reservation on economic criteria can’t address the economic backwardness that arises from social issues.

Gang – Sen – Yun in their paper “Was Mandal Commission right” argue that for the OBC, it is the lack of education that has resulted in their low standard of living, while for SC, it is the type of work they do, and for ST, it is the location. They however reach a conclusion that “the Mandal Commission may have been partly right and partly wrong in its recommendations: while seat reservations in educational institutions may help to some extent in reducing the difference in living standards between the Other Backward Classes and the mainstream population, it is less certain that job quotas will contribute to the same extent.”

In order to understand the issue with backward class, I suggest you read “Indentifying OBC” by Ramaiah.

The argument that the existence of the rich/middle class, falsifies the idea that discrimination is based on caste, is itself a riddled with fallacy. It assumes that money is the source of discrimination and not caste. The above arguments negate that premise.

In view of the above, let me redraft your simple equation: (ugh..no stike through. The underlined part is relevant and the non-underlined part irrelevant)

Poor SC/ST/OBC -> Come under reservation based on caste as well as economic condition
Rich SC/ST/OBC -> Come under reservation base on caste only
Poor non SC/ST/OBC -> Come under reservation based on economic condition only.
Rich non SC/ST/OBC -> Dont come under any type of reservation <Non SC/ST/OBC do not need any reservation, because the affirmative action in form of reservation is not a poverty alleviation program, but a social upliftment program>

Categories which need reservation
1. Poor SC/ST/OBC
2. Poor non SC/ST/OBC

Categories which don't need reservation
1. Rich SC/ST/OBC (doesnt matter if they exist or not since they dont need it)
2. Rich non SC/ST/OBC

Schemes which cover the categories which need reservation
->Reservation based on economic condition caste

Consequences of using a caste based reservation scheme
1. Poor SC/ST/OBC get reservation
2. Rich SC/ST/OBC get reservation and use most of it. (dont need) (collateral)
3. Poor non SC/ST/OBC dont get reservation (need) <Nope. Purpose of reservation is not to alleviate the poor, but to alleviate the one's who are socially backward
4. Rich non SC/ST/OBC dont get reservation.

Another logic regarding social discrimination
1. People dont let the poor SC/ST/OBC study.
2. People cant do anything to rich SC/ST/OBC (doesnt matter if they exist or not)
3. People let the poor SC/ST/OBC study because of reservation only
4. people wont let them study if reservation based on caste does not exist.
5. Now tell me why wont they let the same SC/ST/OBC study if they are still getting reservation under economic condition. < There is no one word/sentence answer to it. The above paragraphs should explain some parts of it.
6. Why are the people letting SC/ST/OBC study till 12th only and what happen only at the time of higher education study? < The dynamics are different at this level. I have probably explained it in one of my earlier posts> He is going to leave his house to study in the city anyway.

Having rich SC/ST/OBC also reduces the number of poor SC/ST/OBC to get the reservation but you wouldnt mind since you are hell bent of destroying India at any cost.

…because I am a paid ISI/CIA double agent. Shhhhhhh…don’t tell it to anybody.

The problem can be solved by creating new institutions with the help of private companies…

Do not disagree.

…helping the SC/ST/OBC in some way to gain status and money(isnt this the whole point of reservation?)

No. And this is where you and all who try to push economic criteria as the basis, are wrong.

Is the fastest way the best way all the time?

Strawman

You are simply taking something from one person and giving it to another.

Amazing. For generations continue oppression, then when its time to give them a helping hand, out comes the accusation of “taking something from one person and giving it to another.” That’s despicable. This is what is called elitism, and no, I don’t need on one to teach me what it is.

Wouldnt it be better if both have it? Even if both can have it, why will you choose a way only one person can have it? And please dont tell me there isnt a way both can have the same thing.

Not where resource is limited.

I think the main problem here is you are trying to achieve a different goal than i am trying to achieve. If i go by my way, i will achieve my goal. If you go by your way, you will achieve your goal. So i think i am right and you think you are right too.
This defeats the whole purpose of having a debate since we are not having the debate to achieve the same goal. As long as this is the case, there is now way a conclusion can be reached.

I am trying to fill a half filled glass, and you are trying to drain what is already there. Yes our goals are different, but apparently, the world thinks my goal is the correct one. How about that.

Oh thank you for ruining my evening by sending me on a wild goose chase.

 

[hpotter606]

Again there is a lot of illogical reasoning on your part but as i have already said your goal is only uplifting people from SC/ST/OBC at whatever cost, there is no point in arguing anymore. Also the open category people belong to this world only in case you dont know.

You are talking about giving helping hand? How do they get scholarships in the first place (which i am not against and Scholarships can be given without quota)? Are we paying taxes or not? If general people are as rich as you say they are, then most of the income tax would be generated by these people.

You know the foremost reason for reservation? Because its not costing government as much money as creating new institutions will cost. They are getting a lot of votes with lot lesser amount of money. Thus india on whole will not gain anything, but general people will loose and SC/ST/OBC will gain (that too the rich ones).

As far as i can see you haven't come up with a single logical reason to justify reservation based on caste which is disappointing since you wrote so many pages on it. One thing i would suggest to you is this. For some time just do a role reversal(i will do the same) and argue about why reservation based on caste should not exist. This may at some level make you aware of our logic.

 

[toofan]

Anyone knows where this Gareebii rekha lies.

So below this gareebi rekha should get the financial aid but not in entrance exams. Why to aid anyone in education or in jobs if he is not qualified for that.

Only qualified persons should be aided irrespective of there caste.

 

[hpotter606]

@toofan

I respect your opinion that financial aid should be based on economic condition. The issue raised by karnivore is ' how will the backward classes will become qualified if they dont get the admission in higher education institutions'? I couldnt find any logical reasoning in his justification, hopefully you can.

 

[karnivore]

hpotter606

Now this is what I call making a molehill out of a mountain.

…there is a lot of illogical reasoning on your part…

A lot ? In that case it won’t be difficult for you to point just ONE. But please don’t put the cart before the horse, like you did earlier.

…your goal is only uplifting people from SC/ST/OBC at whatever cost…

It is the goal of the system of reservation. The “cost” part is your assumption. No one is responsible for your assumptions. You can also assume that moon is made of Swiss cheese. No one’s going to sue you.

Thus india on whole will not gain anything, but general people will loose and SC/ST/OBC will gain (that too the rich ones).

So basically your beef is that “SC/ST/OBC will gain”? Maybe you should now crawl back to the cave you emerged from. As with “general people” loosing, it is, at best, a straight-from-the-butt ignorance and misplaced paranoia, at worst.

As far as i can see you haven't come up with a single logical reason to justify reservation based on caste…

As far as you can see? Then, buddy you should set an appointment with your ophthalmologist at the earliest. Myopia is not to be neglected. It would also help if you quit your hobby of emulating an ostrich.

For some time just do a role reversal(i will do the same) and argue about why reservation based on caste should not exist.

I used to be a die hard anti-reservationist like you, although my reasoning was entirely different from yours. Surprisingly, not one member raised those doubts.

The issue raised by karnivore is ' how will the backward classes will become qualified if they dont get the admission in higher education institutions'? I couldnt find any logical reasoning in his justification, hopefully you can.

The underlined part is, what in debating circle called, strawman. Anyway, you began your arguments on one point, and now ending it on another, pushing your goal post so far and wide, that an entire jumbo jet can pass through it, with plenty of room to spare.

Your argument was: reservation should be based on economic criteria, because you thought, that all this discrimination actually boiled downed to, just plain money.

My counter-argument was:

a) Affirmative action – which the caste based reservation is – is not a poverty eradication program. It’s objective is to bring about a social equilibrium, by enabling the socially backward class to access the resources of opportunities, equally with the mainstream community. Since, this is a social scheme, the social factor, that is responsible for such inequality in the society, should, therefore, be the basis of such positive discrimination.

b) Social backwardness itself breeds economic backwardness. So, if economic factor is made the criterion for affirmative action, it will not be able to address that part of the economic disparity which arises out of social ostracism. Therefore, it stands to reason that the social backwardness is dealt differently from the economic backwardness, for which, the govt. already have plenty of schemes.

Which part of this counter-argument seems to be saying “how will the backward classes will become qualified if they dont get the admission in higher education institutions”.

The only response you could muster is an idiotic and escapist retort, that your goal is different than mine. If you had really spent 4 hrs reading my post, it would have been aptly clear there and then, because I don’t believe I have said anything different now. There was no need for this one-o-one. So stop being a pretentious brat.

Next time if you wish to reply, comeback with proper rebuttal, backed up by data. Otherwise stay square.

Waste of time, waste of bandwidth.

 

[hpotter606]

Again you are showing your medieval mindset in above post. But it seems to me you will only see things are you want to see and nothing anyone says matter to you. As for the illogical reasoning, i have pointed it out plenty of times (so have many before me) and you simply ignore it. So no point in doing it again.

The goal of the reservation system (which ultimately makes it your goal) is to uplift the SC/ST/OBC people at any cost which is not the goal i am trying to achieve. So stop making stupid statements without understanding the meaning.

You are telling me that 'open people will loose a lot' is a misplaced paranoia? Are you really that stupid? These type of stupid arguments YOU keep making, not me. Instead of telling me its a misplaced paranoia, you could have told me how reservation is benefiting the open category people or even 'not affecting' them.

By the way, your counter arguments are (again) totally illogical. The way you try to prove things make me think you can easily prove that Einstein was an idiot. But only you will believe it.

 

[karnivore]

…and strawmen continue to rule the roost.

As for the illogical reasoning, i have pointed it out plenty of times (so have many before me) and you simply ignore it.

One more time. Show me which part of my argument is illogical and why it is so. Also show me which point I have ignored.

The goal of the reservation system (which ultimately makes it your goal) is to uplift the SC/ST/OBC people at any cost…

The cost part, again is your imagination.

Instead of telling me its a misplaced paranoia, you could have told me how reservation is benefiting the open category people or even 'not affecting' them.


One who is claiming, is supposed to prove his claim, not necessarily the one who is criticizing it. IIRC, it was you who claimed that the open category will loose a lot and therefore, the onus is on you to prove that it is so.

…your counter arguments are (again) totally illogical.

…and I am still waiting for the rebuttal.

The way you try to prove things make me think you can easily prove that Einstein was an idiot.

Projecting ?

Shooo kid. Run along now. Go back to playing with your crayons.