Reservation System - Should it exist?

Should the Reservation System exist in India?


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karnivore

in your face..
Naah. He rehashes his points again and again and again. If you read two of his posts, you'll find nothing new in other posts. :|
Correct Mr Smarty Pants. If you ask me a thousand times, the answer for two plus two, for a thousand times, it will be four.

Somebody finally woke up.
 

rhitwick

Democracy is a myth
Btw, are you referring to Anandabazar ? I seem to have read one incident of taking bath after being offered seat on a bus, although it was probably a muslim gentleman, who was involved.
Yes. It was that newspaper. But, I could only find one such "documented" incident. But I myself have seen such things happening.

I'm ashamed to admit but in my home too it happens. Certain woman does chores for us. My grandma always stays back until she is given her food, then she goes for a bath. My mom n dad r too busy to look into such things and I was always a rebellion at home. U know, I've seen hoses where kids r taught how to behave with such lower caste people!

People posting here got the light of education. WE know what is good and what is bad. But, think about those places where going to school is a luxury. There even the SCs, OBCs etc accepts treatment to them. Even they have developed a mindset that they should not claim same status as SCs.

Now, can u change their viewpoint just providing a lecture on castesim? Let me tell u which kind of replies u'll get to hear even from the people we are talking for. "a few drops of english has made him mad" , "these city dwellers think anything is possible", "how can we do away with our rituals, practice in one day?"

The thing is that, even for them its now a "comfort zone". A few of them now so used to enjoying the benefits (or manupulating the facilities given to them) that they wouldn't want an equal right.

To change the situation we have to change our approach in such a way that doesn't scare them or make them anxious about their future.

I, with my limited view can only think about one solution, i.e free(Govt. would bear ALL expenditure) and mandatory (if not implemented then punishable/fine) education till class XII.

U can't change anything if the revolt doesn't come from within.
 

hpotter606

Journeyman
I had a paper yesterday and now one is on 20th. So i took a casual look on the posts.

I will have to say i agree with rhitwick on many points especially on that the education till 12th should be free. That way people of open catagory wont feel such resentment that they feel due to unequal treatment (do they deserve to be treated unfairly is another issue).
 

Liverpool_fan

Sami Hyypiä, LFC legend
Yes. It was that newspaper. But, I could only find
I, with my limited view can only think about one solution, i.e free(Govt. would bear ALL expenditure) and mandatory (if not implemented then punishable/fine) education till class XII.
I'll agree to that. Plus Free Forms for applying to Colleges. Free Training, and all the facilities possible particularly Economic help.
But remove those seats reserved for them.
Give them the platform to go to that level (of education). Don't give them the level itself without raising the platform itself.
 

rhitwick

Democracy is a myth
I'll agree to that. Plus Free Forms for applying to Colleges. Free Training, and all the facilities possible particularly Economic help.
When I say free education, it means free. Ur text books to exercise books, pens pencils etc all expenditure should be provided by Govt. As someone already told, if they can spend so much on army and war why not a few chunks in education.

But remove those seats reserved for them.
See thats the reason I told "mandatory education". If u make it a rule that u should attend school till class XII, then no need to put put reservation for schools. SCHOOLS HAVE TO HAVE SEATS TO ACCOMMODATE PUPIL. Being mandatory would ensure one thing also that, u can complain if denied education. And ur parents would be liable to answer to Govt. if they are not sending you to school.

Give them the platform to go to that level (of education). Don't give them the level itself without raising the platform itself.
Now, it can be a matter of discussion if only education can help them achieve it or you need to make them financially able.
 

Liverpool_fan

Sami Hyypiä, LFC legend
When I say free education, it means free. Ur text books to exercise books, pens pencils etc all expenditure should be provided by Govt. As someone already told, if they can spend so much on army and war why not a few chunks in education.
Exactly.

See thats the reason I told "mandatory education". If u make it a rule that u should attend school till class XII, then no need to put put reservation for schools. SCHOOLS HAVE TO HAVE SEATS TO ACCOMMODATE PUPIL. Being mandatory would ensure one thing also that, u can complain if denied education. And ur parents would be liable to answer to Govt. if they are not sending you to school.
Exactly. Every child irrespective of caste, creed or religion HAS TO BE accomodated in school for education. Making mandatory is absolutely essential.

Now, it can be a matter of discussion if only education can help them achieve it or you need to make them financially able.
Well facilities in other words. If they are academic, give them discounted/free + interest free loans for higher education (based on socio-economic status of course). If they want to pursue Business encourage it by giving loans, reducing taxes in initial phase, etc.
In other words, give them the facilities which they are being deprived due to social discrimination and economic status.
With that they will be actually be able to compete against umm...non-deprived sections of the society.

What the Government is currently doing is just giving them the "Fish" but not teaching them "How To Fish". I hpe you get my point. :)
 

karnivore

in your face..
free(Govt. would bear ALL expenditure)
A scheme called Sarva Siksha Abhiyan (SSA) exists, which provides free education to kids, till the age of 14. This includes, free books, copies, pencils and even meals. The govt. run schools are also free, with mid day meals. Although, probably, free books etc are not supplied. (I am not sure of that part)
mandatory (if not implemented then punishable/fine)…
This will not solve any problem. If education is made mandatory, which in any case has been made via inclusion of education as “fundamental right” (if you would want to call your “fundamental right” mandatory), it will apply to an individual only and not to a school. The school shall still reserve the right to deny admission to a particular kid, if not for anything, then for capacity constraint. Also, since, demand far exceeds capacity, admission can’t be made mandatory. Let me explain by a stylized example.

Suppose within a community, there are 100 schools each with a capacity of 20 seats. Suppose, in any given year, there are 5000 kids who are eligible for admission. Suppose further, that this community is geographically restricted and secluded – no one can go out or come inside the community. Thus for 5000 kids, we have just 2000 seats. It means, 3000 kids can’t be admitted to school, in any given year. Mandatory admission will simply not work here – because of capacity constraints. In this case, however, education is also denied to the 3000 kids, in that given year. Now consider a single student, named X within that group of 5000 kids. If X is denied admission in 1 school, because of capacity constraint, he is not denied education, because with respect to him, there are 99 more schools to offer education. Therefore, unless he has been denied admission in all the schools, he can’t claim, that he has been denied education.

Now imagine, if the community is not geographically restricted and secluded and is open like in a country. X’s problem increases by many orders of magnitude. Unless X has covered the entire length and breadth of the country, and has been denied admission in every single school, he can’t claim he has been denied education. This, as you realize, is absurd.

Mandatory education will therefore work where, capacity = demand, or capacity > demand, but never where demand > capacity.

Even if we set this aside, mandatory primary education still can’t solve the problem of disproportionate representation of backward community in higher education.
 

rhitwick

Democracy is a myth
This will not solve any problem. If education is made mandatory, which in any case has been made via inclusion of education as “fundamental right” (if you would want to call your “fundamental right” mandatory), it will apply to an individual only and not to a school. The school shall still reserve the right to deny admission to a particular kid, if not for anything, then for capacity constraint. Also, since, demand far exceeds capacity, admission can’t be made mandatory. Let me explain by a stylized example.

Suppose within a community, there are 100 schools each with a capacity of 20 seats. Suppose, in any given year, there are 5000 kids who are eligible for admission. Suppose further, that this community is geographically restricted and secluded – no one can go out or come inside the community. Thus for 5000 kids, we have just 2000 seats. It means, 3000 kids can’t be admitted to school, in any given year. Mandatory admission will simply not work here – because of capacity constraints. In this case, however, education is also denied to the 3000 kids, in that given year. Now consider a single student, named X within that group of 5000 kids. If X is denied admission in 1 school, because of capacity constraint, he is not denied education, because with respect to him, there are 99 more schools to offer education. Therefore, unless he has been denied admission in all the schools, he can’t claim, that he has been denied education.

Your example is accepted. I took time to understand what I told earlier and found it impossible. Then, I realized that the problem you mentioned would only arise if the rule is implemented tomorrow. Means, without any survey, without evaluating the constraints. It would be like u get up in the morning and found that a new rule is implemented.

No, I'm not talking about that way. The problem statement of u requires some lengthy reply.

Here I begin:-

To implement that rule U first need to prepare a format for education.
1> Present avg. students in a school.
2> Ideal Student to teacher ratio.
3> As being a mandatory till XII, u need to reformat the syllabus to put things that are unavoidable in that duration.

Then
1> I propose a survey of present no. schools in a state. Divide them with district wise.
2> Get a no. eligible kids in that area.
3> Tally the student to school ratio.
4> Point out places with more school and less school and sort out schools having more attention than others.
5> Where there are less schools (1-2 schools per 3 villages), take opinion from local people if they would send their kids to most near-by school if its available. (This is required as some people would go by reputation rather communication problems). If 60% positive reply. Chalk out a plan for making a school having class I to X.
6> Schools where more students are admitted. Increase sections, i.e. if class V is now having 3 sections (V-A, V-B, and V-C of capacity 40 each) make two or three more (depending upon demand, again talk to school teachers). Improve infrastructure of that school to accommodate such huge no. of pupil. (ur question would be teachers? What about, now huge demand in "Para-Teachers", a few basic trg. schools are closed. Re-open them, train more, create more. MORE JOB opportunity)
7> For class XI to XII increase sections in existing schools or on demand it can be done in new schools too (mentioned in point 5)


Being a district wise activity it would be easier to track.



How did u like my plan?? :rolleyes:



Another thing I want to tell u that, in many threads u told u don't care what HCs think or cry about facilities given to SCs, LCs. You are not gonna pay any heed to them. They should suffer for what they had done earlier. This mindset is very dangerous.
It would create another problem. Suppose in near future getting so much pampered the SCs etc. switch role with HCs, i.e. now they are in power, they take decisions etc. and starts the same behavior to the HCs. Then an Ambedkar would again be wanted to ask equal right for the neglected ones. Its like revisiting the history with only diff. characters.
I can only compare the situation with the quarrel of a couple. It happens that for some reason the gal is very angry to her boyfriend. She is not even talking, listening to his prayers etc. Now the boy is trying very hard to clam her down. He does this so long that after a time he gets frustrated and becomes angry to his GF. Now the gal realizes her fault that for such a petty matter they were fighting and she had done wrong by ignoring him for such long time. Now its her turn to pacify her BF. She does everything to pacify him but now the BF reciprocates the same behavior to her. At last the gal gets angry again its now the boy's turn to pacify her.
R u getting me? its like switching roles only, but the main problem remains.
 

karnivore

in your face..
Your example is accepted. I took time to understand what I told earlier and found it impossible. Then, I realized that the problem you mentioned would only arise if the rule is implemented tomorrow. Means, without any survey, without evaluating the constraints. It would be like u get up in the morning and found that a new rule is implemented.
Thanks for reading the message in the bottle and not unnecessarily arguing if the bottle should be green or yellow.

No, I'm not talking about that way. The problem statement of u requires some lengthy reply.

Here I begin:-

To implement that rule U first need to prepare a format for education.
1> Present avg. students in a school.
2> Ideal Student to teacher ratio.
3> As being a mandatory till XII, u need to reformat the syllabus to put things that are unavoidable in that duration.

Then
1> I propose a survey of present no. schools in a state. Divide them with district wise.
2> Get a no. eligible kids in that area.
3> Tally the student to school ratio.
4> Point out places with more school and less school and sort out schools having more attention than others.
5> Where there are less schools (1-2 schools per 3 villages), take opinion from local people if they would send their kids to most near-by school if its available. (This is required as some people would go by reputation rather communication problems). If 60% positive reply. Chalk out a plan for making a school having class I to X.
6> Schools where more students are admitted. Increase sections, i.e. if class V is now having 3 sections (V-A, V-B, and V-C of capacity 40 each) make two or three more (depending upon demand, again talk to school teachers). Improve infrastructure of that school to accommodate such huge no. of pupil. (ur question would be teachers? What about, now huge demand in "Para-Teachers", a few basic trg. schools are closed. Re-open them, train more, create more. MORE JOB opportunity)
7> For class XI to XII increase sections in existing schools or on demand it can be done in new schools too (mentioned in point 5)


Being a district wise activity it would be easier to track.



How did u like my plan?? :rolleyes:
Your suggestion is essentially, that of capacity expansion. I have no bones to pick with the idea of capacity expansion. Regardless of whether it can put an end to the reservation system, we desperately need to increase our educational infrastructure. There isn’t nearly enough to meet the demands of ever increasing population. There can’t be any second thought on this. Additionally, we need to increase the quality of education at primary level, as well.

But the thing is, we are not debating how to remove reservation, eventually, in the long run. We are debating, if we need reservation right at this point of time. Capacity increase is not going to happen overnight, or in one or two years or even a decade or two. Given the massive investment required, given the constraints in resource allocation, given the red tape, given the corruption, it is a long drawn process.

The question then is, what do we do between “now” and “then”. Capacity increase, will probably remove the need for any reservation, because, theoretically, if there is no capacity constraint, there is no need for rationing (assuming that social disparities follow the same rule as in economic theories). But how do we handle the social discrimination/ backwardness that would continue to exist, till we achieve adequate capacity, if at all we can achieve that. This argument is therefore a good and valid in determining, “how long should we have reservation”, but not for “if reservation is needed NOW”.


Another thing I want to tell u that, in many threads u told u don't care what HCs think or cry about facilities given to SCs, LCs. You are not gonna pay any heed to them. They should suffer for what they had done earlier. This mindset is very dangerous.
Well, it is a matter of priority. What I meant was that, the plight of the lower caste is, in my book, the priority, not the resentment of the higher caste. If you browse through this forum, you will see that the stance against reservation arises from ignorance and half-baked ideas (not one member could provide me any data to support their arguments. Not one.) Do you really expect me to their resentment any seriously.


It would create another problem. Suppose in near future getting so much pampered the SCs etc. switch role with HCs, i.e. now they are in power, they take decisions etc. and starts the same behavior to the HCs. Then an Ambedkar would again be wanted to ask equal right for the neglected ones. Its like revisiting the history with only diff. characters.
I can only compare the situation with the quarrel of a couple. It happens that for some reason the gal is very angry to her boyfriend. She is not even talking, listening to his prayers etc. Now the boy is trying very hard to clam her down. He does this so long that after a time he gets frustrated and becomes angry to his GF. Now the gal realizes her fault that for such a petty matter they were fighting and she had done wrong by ignoring him for such long time. Now its her turn to pacify her BF. She does everything to pacify him but now the BF reciprocates the same behavior to her. At last the gal gets angry again its now the boy's turn to pacify her.
R u getting me? its like switching roles only, but the main problem remains.
As with reverse discrimination – it is actually a bogey that is raised by these ignorant kids. If you actually read a few sociologists, even the pro ones, you will see, that the biggest criticism against this mechanism of reservation, is the lack of pace. It is argued that since, in 60 years, it couldn’t even come close to being half as effective as it was believed to be, we need to scrap this system and have a new system of reservation in place.

It is funny, when the sociologists are concerned that this system is not fast enough, we have bunch of kids, hopping around as if reverse discrimination is just round the corner.

Come on rhitwick, of all the members, how could you fall for this BS. Et tu Brutus.:grin:
 

rhitwick

Democracy is a myth
Thanks for reading the message in the bottle and not unnecessarily arguing if the bottle should be green or yellow.
I don't do that.
I'm right till I'm "proven" wrong. You give me enough logic with proof that my ideology is flawed, I would accept u happily:)

Your suggestion is essentially, that of capacity expansion. I have no bones to pick with the idea of capacity expansion. Regardless of whether it can put an end to the reservation system, we desperately need to increase our educational infrastructure. There isn’t nearly enough to meet the demands of ever increasing population. There can’t be any second thought on this. Additionally, we need to increase the quality of education at primary level, as well.

But the thing is, we are not debating how to remove reservation, eventually, in the long run. We are debating, if we need reservation right at this point of time. Capacity increase is not going to happen overnight, or in one or two years or even a decade or two. Given the massive investment required, given the constraints in resource allocation, given the red tape, given the corruption, it is a long drawn process.

The question then is, what do we do between “now” and “then”. Capacity increase, will probably remove the need for any reservation, because, theoretically, if there is no capacity constraint, there is no need for rationing (assuming that social disparities follow the same rule as in economic theories). But how do we handle the social discrimination/ backwardness that would continue to exist, till we achieve adequate capacity, if at all we can achieve that. This argument is therefore a good and valid in determining, “how long should we have reservation”, but not for “if reservation is needed NOW”.


Well, it is a matter of priority. What I meant was that, the plight of the lower caste is, in my book, the priority, not the resentment of the higher caste. If you browse through this forum, you will see that the stance against reservation arises from ignorance and half-baked ideas (not one member could provide me any data to support their arguments. Not one.) Do you really expect me to their resentment any seriously.
See, with my limited vision and lack of experience I could only thought of this. I though this is how it should at least be approached.

About debate, if we are here only for the sake of debating and having fun, well, then I was too much involved and took it too seriously.

On other thought, my approach to solve a problem is different. If there is a pain I just don't recommend a painkiller, I try to go to the root and remove the cause.
So, I tried to foresee if reservation is removed tomorrow what problems would occur. And that too from all possible sides.
1> What would happen to the really needy people?
2> How the people who are "enjoying" (pun intended) it would react?
3> If it needs to be removed, what should we do to full fill the vacant?
4> What should be our approach? etc.

That I call a back-up plan ready for every place to be affected if reservation is removed.
Yes and obviously it would take time. Why not? If we could wait till 70 years with very little progress why not another 5-6 years. Till then let it stay as it is.

As with reverse discrimination – it is actually a bogey that is raised by these ignorant kids. If you actually read a few sociologists, even the pro ones, you will see, that the biggest criticism against this mechanism of reservation, is the lack of pace. It is argued that since, in 60 years, it couldn’t even come close to being half as effective as it was believed to be, we need to scrap this system and have a new system of reservation in place.

It is funny, when the sociologists are concerned that this system is not fast enough, we have bunch of kids, hopping around as if reverse discrimination is just round the corner.

Come on rhitwick, of all the members, how could you fall for this BS. Et tu Brutus.:grin:
See, neither anyone told me this nor I'm influenced by any article or any post. I think I'm first one here to talk about reverse discrimination (may be I'm not:grin:). Its just I thought that this may come in future if we continue doing this.
May be not now but who can say in next 70yrs, it won't. Can u guarantee?

See its on us. Our solutions come depending how we think about it. U think u can take a quick decision at the 11th hour but I can't, I have to have a plan or I crash.
 

karnivore

in your face..
See, with my limited vision and lack of experience I could only thought of this. I though this is how it should at least be approached.
I think, in this thread, you are the only person who have actually tried to come up with a solution – which was not too far off the mark either. That is commendable.*i180.photobucket.com/albums/x31/trash609/smilie/image28.gif
On other thought, my approach to solve a problem is different. If there is a pain I just don't recommend a painkiller, I try to go to the root and remove the cause.
So, I tried to foresee if reservation is removed tomorrow what problems would occur. And that too from all possible sides.
1> What would happen to the really needy people?
2> How the people who are "enjoying" (pun intended) it would react?
3> If it needs to be removed, what should we do to full fill the vacant?
4> What should be our approach? etc.

That I call a back-up plan ready for every place to be affected if reservation is removed.
I did not disagree with you in principle.

Yes and obviously it would take time. Why not? If we could wait till 70 years with very little progress why not another 5-6 years. Till then let it stay as it is.
The part emphasized, is what I am saying. We can’t remove it, just yet. Btw, “5-6 years” is way too optimistic estimate. Anyway, point taken.
See, neither anyone told me this nor I'm influenced by any article or any post. I think I'm first one here to talk about reverse discrimination (may be I'm not). Its just I thought that this may come in future if we continue doing this.
May be not now but who can say in next 70yrs, it won't. Can u guarantee?
If the same rate continues, I can guarantee, that in next 100 yrs we will not be seeing any “reverse discrimination”. For example, in the IAS cadre, it took us 62 damn years to raise the proportion of backward class, from almost 0 to roughly over 5%. About 1% or so are from other religions and a whopping 94% are high caste.
See its on us. Our solutions come depending how we think about it. U think u can take a quick decision at the 11th hour but I can't, I have to have a plan or I crash.
I don’t think, I ever made any insinuation to that effect. In fact I am a 6th hour man, although the clock on my wrist tells me it is 5 min past midnight.*i180.photobucket.com/albums/x31/trash609/smilie/image05-1.gif
 

rhitwick

Democracy is a myth
Dude we were talking about "Right to education"...now check this out...

A few days back Education minister announced of a new bill about free education for 6-14yrs children. In today's paper it came that the bill is talking for "Free and compulsory" education.
"Geniuses think alike", what say? :p :-D

But the sad thing is that, they will be introducing to quota even to this:sad:, which would IMO make this also useless.

The Right of Children to Free and Compulsory Education Bill, 2008—promising free and compulsory education to children in the 6-14 age group

Sibal explained that the concept of neighbourhood schools would be defined by states. He also allayed fears about financing of the scheme. Sibal said the National University of Educational Planning and Administration is working on it and the 13th Finance Commission has been told about the fund requirement. He said the Centre-state ratio would be decided later. He also said the norm for 25% quota would be fixed by states. D Raja and JD Seelam (Congress) wanted the minister to spell out the SC/ST/OBC reservation. But the bill defines disadvantaged group as those belonging to SC/ST/socially and educationally backward class and those whose parents earn less than the minimum government limit.

Source: TOI, 21st July, 2009. Mumbai edition, page 11.
Article name: With only 54 MPs, RS clears right to edu bill
ePaper link
 

karnivore

in your face..
"Geniuses think alike", what say? :p :-D
*i180.photobucket.com/albums/x31/trash609/me-thumbs-up.png

But the sad thing is that, they will be introducing to quota even to this:sad:, which would IMO make this also useless.
Mandatory education is not the solution to the problem that reservation seeks to address. I have already explained.
 

spikygv

Wise Old Owl
Reservation was never meant to stay this long. It should have been removed long back.

The reservation system is being misused in india. Reservation should be given to the economically weaker groups. Not based on caste.

Look at the number of people entering universities through reservation even though they dont need it. They have led a comfortable life with all the education that modern cities bring. They are no different from other competitors but take precedence just because long ago they belonged to a backward community.

On the other hand , people from villages neither have the opportunities nor the finances necessary to pursue their dreams.
They dont reap any benefits from reservation even though they deserve it.

People hate SC/ST or groups of persons misusing the reservation system and usurping opportunities of the common public ( which some of u have called HC - high caste ? ).
 

sijugk

Right off the assembly line
Whats more!!!! now they are going to start reservation for women also. They are also telling all are equal but some should enjoy the fruits of reservation,free education etc....

It is discrimination!!!!
 

Ecko

Wandering In Tecno Land
IMO people should get rid of there last names :p as in IDEA advertisement that shows numbers instead of names :p and dere will be no Q-Factor
Everything on merit basis ;)
Else believe it its practically impossible..........!!!
 
I think ours is the only country where people fight to stay backward.

We imagine a caste free society all day long, I wonder how this is possible if the govt. itself keeps the practice of identifying people based on caste alive...
 
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n00buddy

Right off the assembly line
I don't caste or religion based reservation.
There should be 25% reservation based on economic condition no matter if you are a brahmin or schedule caste.
I don't understand why can't a brahmin who is below poverty line(there are many-many) can get a reservation but an IAS who is SC/ST can get it :x.
This way the economically poor will never be uplifted and India will not grow as it should, as talent will not get an opportunity and brain-drain will occur :(.
 
OP
The Conqueror

The Conqueror

Elevating Humanity
I Believe that Reservation system creates more in-equalities..Now more and more social,political communities are demanding reservations everywhere. Is this fair ? Reservation system is simply the root cause why we are not developing as fast as we should.
 

techmaniack

Broken In
hmmm for those who are telling yes, just have a look at the cutoffs for most of the prestigious colleges of our nation. The only thing that happens is that Quality students are unable to get a Quality degree! As you all might be reading the news papers you must have often come across the news that bunch of students belonging to SC and ST are kicked off fromm the IIT's and NIT's as they are unable to clear even the first year!(i don't know that how many of you know that extra one year remedial PCM course is held for the SC ST guys in the IITS!)
i am not against reservation but i am against resetrvation in education, i scored 173 in MHCET and took CS in VIT but i can't tell you how much i get disturbed when i see guys who are going to be with me for the next 3 years, i mean some of them have even scored below 120!!! and thats not the only reason i hate them, their attitude is the major thing. They absolutely do not have something which we call as engineering ethics, they just come to college because they feel that it is their right (it is another thing that they have to pay only 10% of what we pay + they get hell lot of scholarships + Library advantages and what not).

You might think that i am a proud guy or something but what i feel is that Even they should feel proud, Thats all!!!!
 
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