PC Buying Guide - July 2011

Status
Not open for further replies.

Cilus

laborare est orare
^^ Exactly, the discussion is going to a completely different direction....rather than 3D config, it is concentrating on IPS beats TN thing. We are not at all denying it. But just for gaming TN panels are not at all crap and they perform closely to their IPS counterparts.
2nd thing is the cheapest IPS 3D panels are starting $700, don't know even they are at all available in India.
And I would recommend you guys to post some reviews, points with your claims instead of that "I've experienced That" thing. HERE is another review of two TN panel based 3D monitors. Check it out.

The whole US market is flooded with TN panel based 3D displayed. Even sites like hardwareheven, Gurur3D, TomsHardware, Anandtech are performing their 3D tests with TN panel based displays and also recommending those displays. I was not able to find any reviews for a IPS based 3D display. But still 3D gaming is becoming popular by using those so called Poor and Crap TN based 3D panels. That is why I have created the 3D config in the 1st place.

Just give me a IPS 3D monitor review link and price point to work with.
 
Last edited:

Sarath

iDota
I ruled out 3D long ago due to its expense. It needs a faster a GFX for the same out put, supports fewer games, need a 3D kit seperately.

I just mentioned one line about 3D. Also I was unaware of 120hz IPS panels. However since they are out of our purchasing power I dont think a discussion is necessary.

I give more preference to end user reviews. Especially normal users, then expert review and lastly tech specs. So I just gave mine.

Its a very subjective matter. What you see might not be what I do.
Also better colour reproduction at the cost of gameplay?

Im sorry but I didnt get you or its my limitation as I game on a HD6970 and IPS setup which seems to be free of bottlenecks. I also mentioned that rigs upward of 85k should have this for the same reason.

The discussion is about 3D I know but I will not speak about them unless I have used them. Practically they are a little expensive and cumbersome is my only opinion. I have read three pages before posting. Please point out what I have missed.

I posted above for the increasingly negative outlook for IPS panels.
Also I would say since this is a "cheap" IPS panel it is devoid of many goodies of what i would call full fledged IPS panels. But I am just a gamer so I dont need super awesome colours for 15k more.

Actually the only reason I am even posting this, is for the IPS is no good for gaming stand. If you have an IPS panel and face the problems then I will go mute. But if not and going by pure tech specs and online reviews doesnt make a strong point accross.

Also I agree with you that TN offers good performance at a VFM standpoint. IPS comes put of that purview. I payed a hefty premium for this panel just to have better colours during gaming. Its your choice to make if you are happy with TN go for it. If you want to go IPS then do so.

I was in a private conversation with a user here who wanted to know about the Dell U23. I told him all about it but he couldnt stretch his budget to 15k. He too a similar size one for 8or 9k. I told him its not worth the upgrade and said TNs are good too. As simple as that. I dont want to lobby for IPS. I just recommend it to anyone spending 15k. Anything more or less, I do not comment.

The last 3D monitor I saw was the alienware OptX 23". @25k last time I checked.
 

Cilus

laborare est orare
Sarath, everything you've said make perfect sense. Here our intention was not at all to prove IPS is bad in gaming but was to build a 3D rig within a good price point...that's all. But the 1st comment I got after that hard work is that TN panels are crap, go for IPS panel. These kinda comments are actually baseless and posted even without even looking at the topic of the discussion for once, without understanding the main objective and has led to the unnecessary lengthy discussion.

And regarding your bottleneck query, buddy there won't be any bottleneck. The color reproduction for the games are not as real as prerecorded video because they are designed to be processed in the gaming graphics card on that fashion for achieving the performance level where it is processing millions of pixel in a fraction of time. Gaming cards are themselves designed to sacrifice very high degree of accuracy in favor of performance as in gaming you don't need exact reproduction of colors as in case of movies. It is not your graphics card is getting Bottle-necked to reproduce exact colors for games and failed to display it in your TNS panel, Gfx Card is simply not processing the games for exact reproduction of colors. That is why I was saying in gaming the difference is not that much between TN and IPS panel, but IPS is still better.

The exact accuracy thing is actually the job of the workstation card.
 

Sarath

iDota
^^^Hmm I agree with you there. Lets continue this for 3D Tvs now.

Just to make it clear now, since it has been cleared, POST about 3D monitors henceforth. All related IPS and TN discussions are dead. Waking up the dead is not wise.


I would like to ask since you evoked my curiosity. I know the technicality of stuff (somewhat) but are you saying that the colour and contrast will be the same across TN and IPS or marginal better[but not proportional to actual IPS/TN difference] and TN will give better response time since the games are coded that way by developers? This is something new. You can PM me if you want to avoid offtopic diss. here but I would really like to know.
 

Extreme Gamer

僕はガンダム!
Vendor
Guys, input lag and response time will not make much difference in Single Player games.

But in multiplayer, coupled with the latency between server and client, it puts you at a disadvantage vs other players who have lower latency, because you are already a few frames behind and to top that the communication lag adds to it.

software cannot determine what type of panel you are using Sarath so it is not practically possible for game devs to make games suddenly work better on those TN panels.
 
OP
Jaskanwar Singh

Jaskanwar Singh

Aspiring Novelist
Processor|Core i5 2500K| 10.8K
Cooler|CM Hyper N620 |2.5K
Motherboard|Gigabyte GA-Z68X-UD3H-B3|11.5K
Ram|G.Skill Ripjaws X F3-12800CL8D-8GBXM|5.4K
Graphics Card|MSI GTX 580 Twin Frozer II|25.9K
HDD|Seagate 1 TB 7200.12|2.7K
Optical Drive|LG 22X SATA DVD R/W|0.9K
PSU|Glacialtech Modular GP AX 950 AA 80+ Silver|6K
Case|Lian Li Lancool K58W|4.3K
Monitor|Asus 23" VG236HE BK 3D display|18.5K
Mouse|Razer Deathadder|2K
Mouse Pad|Razer Goliathaus Dragon Age II|0.9K
UPS|APC 1.1KVA|4.3K
Speaker|Altec Lancing VS4621|3.2K
3D Vision Kit|nVidia 3D Vision Kit|8.15K
[/B]

Total @ 107.05K


cilus a little modification to make it a 110k 3d rig -

Sub 110k (Extreme 3D Gaming)

Component | Make | Price Processor |Intel Core i5 2500k|10500
CPU Cooler |Noctua NH-U12P-SE2|3800
Motherboard |Gigabyte GA-Z68X-UD3H-B3|11500
RAM |G.Skill Ripjaws X F3-12800CL8D-8GBXM|5400
Graphic Card |MSI GTX580 Twin Frozr II|25900
3D Vision Kit |Nvidia 3D Vision Kit|8100
HDD |Seagate 1TB 7200.12|2700
DVD Writer |LG 22X SATA DVD|900
PSU |Glacialtech GP AX 950 AA|6000
Case |Lian Li Lancool K58W|4300
Monitor |Asus VG236HE BK|18500
Mouse |Razer Deathadder|2000
Keyboard |RAzer Arctosa|2000
Mouse Pad |Razer Goliathus Fragged Standard M - Speed/Control|700
UPS |APC 1.1KVA|4300
Speakers |Altec Lancing VS4621|3200
| Total |109800

Optional upgrades for 110k -
Component | Make | Price SSD |OCZ 60GB AGILITY 3 SATA III|7500
Headset |Roccat Kave|5000


buddy but i am confused on psu:!:
 

The Sorcerer

oh wow...Xenforo!!!
I hate 3D. You end up disabling motion blur depending on certain games and chops down the framerates to half, thefore ending up reducing AA and AF.

Most likely the Standalone 3D panels you're getting is most likely 120Hz TN Panel for 3D with Nv glasses.
 

Extreme Gamer

僕はガンダム!
Vendor
Hey Piyush, for GTX 580, 850W is the bare minimum for future proofing. I would get a 900W minimum.

For a single card 750W is fine, but then you will end up upgrading 2 components instead of one when you go SLI.

3D Vision is such a GPU hog that you will be compelled to upgrade if you want to max out game graphics.

Hell, the best looking games benefit from SLI even without 3D, so I wouldnt be surprised by the massive hit Metro 2033 gives non-SLI in 3D.

BTW I am looking forward to the Crysis 2 Patch 1.9. We finally get DX11. Tessellation Pack and texture upgrade packs are also available that require the patch.

the patch is being released on 27th June 2011 PST (so expect 28th June 2011 IST).

I would like to see the performance hit DX11 gives my cards :D
 

Sarath

iDota
ah...didn't notice those 3d kit
ok one question
does 3d gaming requires considerable more gfx power than normal HD/Full HD gaming?

Hmm yes. To my knowledge twice the number of frames are needed in 3D for the same effect as 2D. Since each eye needs a seperate frame and hence the requirement of a 120hz monitor so that each eye gets atleast 60hz.

So your Gfx needs to work twice as hard for 3D simply put when upping from 2D.
 

Cilus

laborare est orare
Shayem, thanks for the LG monitor link. But I have checked the review of it and it is not better than the Asus monitor suggested above. But, yes the LG monitor can be used to build more cheaper 3D rigs, say within 85K-90K range. Thanks for posting some valid things, something relevant to the 3D rig building at last,...I was really tired about the IPS TN panel fight.

Jas, for 2500K, we don't need a 3.8K cooler. The reason is 2600K, with its HT enabled, when Oced, gets reasonably more hotter than a Non-HT 2500K. So a N620 can keep the temperature of a Oced 2500K in checked, even at 4 GHz.

The other thing is 850W is minimum to have a GTX 580 SLI, considering you are not doing any overcloking. In case of little overclock, something over 900W is required and recommended in all the sites like Guru3d and Tomshardware. That's why The GlacialTech PSU makes more sense here.

And Jas, warranty is a very good point to for choosing the components, but is is not the main reason. You have to look at the build quality first. The Glacialtech one is having Tank like buid quality, better than TX850 V2. And 2 years warranty is not bad either.
Example is FSP PSUs are also coming with 2 years of warranty but still we recommend them because of their superb build quality.

Sarath, in 3D although there are 2 frames to be processed to generate a single 3D frames, that does not means it requires double GPU power. The reason is most of the Shaders and pixel reproduction between those two frames are exactly same or very slightly different, GPU just needs to duplicate those shaders, not to process them from the scratch. What plays a significant role in 3D gaming is Frame buffer since a very large number of shaders need to be displayed to increase the 3D depth. That's why a single GTX 580 3 GB performs better than a GTX 560 SLI in 3D gaming. In 3D gaming FPS is not the deciding factor but the 3D depth is. Although GTX 560 SLI can run some of the games with better FPS than 580 3 GB, the 3D depth is lesser than a GTX 580 3 GB.

And regarding your previous query, no games are not programmed to be displayed better in TN panel than IPS panel. Lets clarify it:-

You are watching a bluray movie in say in a IPS panel and you are playing games into it. Now I guess there is no doubt that in the movies the color is more vivid and almost same as the real worlds. Shades are very prominent and easily distinguishable. In single word, they are better than today's most beautiful and graphics intensive games.
The reason is for decoding a movie, you need very less processing power as all the pixel values are predefined. All hardware needs to do is to decode it using proper codec and display it. Now you are having an IPS panel, movie is producing colors with real life accuracy and you are getting superb picture ans the colors delivered by the movie is superb and IPS panel is capable of displaying it with proper reproduction. That's why a very low end Gfx card can decode heaviest HD content with ease.

Now come to gaming. Here each of the pixels of a frame is actually needs to be generated on runtime, no predefined values are defined. Then those pixels are need to be aligned in proper geometric structure to create the objects in a single frame and in a fraction of times 100 of frames need to be created to offer smooth gameplay. This is some hefty amount of task compared to display a movie where every thing is predefined. Now if you want to display exact color reproduction like a movie you need to perform very high degree of double precision Floating point operations per second. All of you know Floating point operations (decimal representation) are the most complex task for any hardware and double precision performance of high degree will kill any gaming hardware. Now the main concept is in gaming you don't need exact color reproduction as you know it is a game and you actually don't care that much about the colors of hat the protagonist is waring is exact same as the hat of yours. So the gaming hardware simply concentrate on single precision Floating Point performance (try to understand here, it is not how the game has been coded, it is the hardware execution units' property) and sacrifice the exact reproduction of colors in favor of performance. As a result the games runs smoothly at the cost of exact reproduction of colors. So in IPS panel, the games will not be as good as movies.

Lets say Movie performance in IPS panel is Mips and in TN panel is Mtn. The gaming performance in IPS is Gips and in TN is Gtn
Now Mips-Mtn = delM
Gips-Gtn = DelG
Now DelG < DelM as the game itself does not reproduce exact colors. But it will still look better in IPS panel than a TN panel, only the difference is not that much.

On the other hands the Workstation cards concentrate on double precision floating point operations per second than the speed of processing large amount of data as you need very very real reproduction of color and geometry in designing. As a result, the output from a Workstation card is actually having very good reproduction of color and to display it properly you need an IPS panel. That's why IPS is recommended for 3D modeling, animation and designing works.

Hope it will clear your doubt.
 
Last edited:

vickybat

I am the night...I am...
^^ Excellent analysis buddy. This will clear the minds of most people confused between panels and their properties.

The floating point part is the best and you explained everything in extremely simple and lucid language. And you nailed everything as well. The above reasons you gave, actually makes clear that why 3d modelling and designing works require an ips panel.

Maybe future gpu's can perform high precision double floating point operation while rendering and give us life like graphical images ingame without sacrificing performance. Then maybe ips panels will be de-facto in gaming, but that is not feasible now.

This is the reason why tn panels are growing in numbers in the market.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom