Legality of Mac OS X TOS

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infra_red_dude

Wire muncher!
Then by your claim, all phones, PDAs, MP3 players and in fact every gadget must come without an OS, or in other words must be just a piece of hardware without any function.

An OS is the integral part of anything, and therefore can be considered as an essential part. It's just that MS and Linux come without hardware, an alternate OS, if you will. Almost like allowing people to choose their engine in a car.
That is not true. You can't compare a computer and a cellphone/pda. They come with specific hardware and hence you can't install any OS in any phone. Even symbian OS requires specific hardware.

But a Mac is just another PC inside it (I agree that it uses high quality parts). Your point would've been valid if Macs still used PPC arch. But thats not so.

Personally, I feel Apple could release a OS X version for PCs, perhaps with a label that says something like "Works best on a Mac"...

Arun
That would be a great step. GNU/Linux can't give Windows a tuff comptt. when it comes to Pro software like Photoshop, Premire etc. With OS X out and with the current set of OS X pricing ($129) nobody would buy Windows (except a few gamers for whom games won't run on their OS X thru Cidar)

^^ That would be great. But the fact is that a major part of the Apple experience is that the Software and Hardware are very closely related, which leads to the added stability that OS X is famous for.

Throw it out in the open, and there's nothing keeping hackers from tearing it to bits. Just another Windows.

+1, couldn't agree more :)
 
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FilledVoid

Guest
dude wtf! bundling ie with windows is a restrictive trade practice, bundling wmp with windows is a restrictive trade practice but bundling an entire freaking OS with a specific machine only is not restrictive
I'm guessing the keyword here is "Monopoly". When Apple gets a major share if it ever does, then Im sure you will see Lawsuits popping all over the place :). Also if it makes you feel any better didn't Apple face a lawsuit for tying its customers to iTunes or something. I'll have to look up the details for a more accurate description.
 
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kumarmohit

kumarmohit

Technomancer
Going by the sense in which Linux operates, Apple does monopolize. Leave the open source part, there are many distros but no equivalent in OS X.

Some may claim for Windows as well and despite the fact that you do get somewhat of an alternative in React OS or Wine, I would say. There is no ReactOS for OS X however.
 

ring_wraith

=--=l33t=--=
That is not true. You can't compare a computer and a cellphone/pda. They come with specific hardware and hence you can't install any OS in any phone. Even symbian OS requires specific hardware.

I see what you mean. It was just a random thought anyway, and by no means something I was sure of. [See my earlier post]

Dude, do you know what you are saying? What will aryayush say if he sees your comment... ;-)

Sigh... another person who falsely believes that the Mac is not hacked only because hackers can't.

Here, read this:

*www.zdnet.com.au/news/security/soa/Mac-OS-X-hacked-under-30-minutes/0,130061744,139241748,00.htm

and I welcome whatever Aayush has to say, for he is one of the few people on this forum who can speak with a clear head.
 
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iMav

The Devil's Advocate
and I welcome whatever Aayush has to say, for he is one of the few people on this forum who can speak with a clear head.
*gigasmilies.googlepages.com/24.gif

and filledvoid - im not talking about what law thinks or EU agrees the point is when a lawsuit filed against MS every1 says yes its right whatever MS does is bad and if apple does something similar well u know what they make better products that sell peanuts in front of windows based equipment so its monopolistic on MS's part to do so .... but apple not allowing os x on other machines means its not restrictive trade policy (words of a clear headed thinker)
 

legolas

Padawan
Just to get my doubts clarified, as I am only keeping tabs on the conversation, I don't have much to contribute than saying +1 for already written posts :D

When Windows comes bundled with WMP and IE, if its being ridiculed, why is that, the whole OS coming only with the hardware being hailed. I don't care even if it is hailed, but if you agree this, then you better agree to the same monopolistic nature in windows' bundling too.

Please don't provide analogies for this with maruti engines, comparing hardware with software :) . Its like saying 2 strokes only work better with yamaha because they use it better :D. But, I guess @infra_red_dude already explained it being a PC with say high quality parts... that being acceptable.

and
I welcome whatever Aayush has to say, for he is one of the few people on this forum who can speak with a clear head.
Really? I know him as a Mac Fanboy and he is as biased as others here are. Only that he has cogent reasoning which only people who understand better can counter-argue. Not ones like me say :D
 
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FilledVoid

Guest
[and filledvoid - im not talking about what law thinks or EU agrees the point is when a lawsuit filed against MS every1 says yes its right whatever MS does is bad and if apple does something similar well u know what they make better products that sell peanuts in front of windows based equipment so its monopolistic on MS's part to do so .... but apple not allowing os x on other machines means its not restrictive trade policy (words of a clear headed thinker)

As I said earlier I'm kind of amazed at the tactics Organizations use to gain an advantage. However its all fair in the business world I guess :). As far as MRTP is concerned in India I wouldn't know alot about it. I've only learned a bit about Cyber Law and not General Law as kumarmohit is. So basically hes in a better position to check with his teachers and find out if it is or not . Personally I would love to try Apple on my computer, But that again seems to be definitely frowned upon in this forum so I'm staying away from it .
 

ring_wraith

=--=l33t=--=
*gigasmilies.googlepages.com/24.gif

and
Really? I know him as a Mac Fanboy and he is as biased as others here are. Only that he has cogent reasoning which only people who understand better can counter-argue. Not ones like me say :D

Now I wouldn't usually go around defending people, but civilized debates with Aayush have taught me that he is, indeed, not a fanboy. I'll admit it, I used to think so myself, but I have changed my opinion of him. He is not by any means afraid to call a spade a spade, even if it is Apple's spade.

And legolas, no amount of cogent reasoning can falsely convince me. I'll have you know that in aforementioned debates, whatever he said, he backed up by a link or so.

and again,

Please don't provide analogies for this with maruti engines, comparing hardware with software . Its like saying 2 strokes only work better with yamaha because they use it better . But, I guess @infra_red_dude already explained it being a PC with say high quality parts... that being acceptable.

I already admitted that my analogy was wrong, as infra_red_dude pointed out. If it gives you some kind of feeling of pride to repeatedly point out other people's mistakes, then by all means don't stop.
 
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kumarmohit

kumarmohit

Technomancer
im not talking about what law thinks or EU agrees the point
Well just FYI, legality is actually defined by wat law thinks and not wat people think. Though ideally the law must think wat ppl think but as the popular thinking changes faster then law, we have to agree to the law until it is changed.
 
guys guys, please stay ON TOPIC. You even managed to distract ME temporarily. This is not a mac bashing thread. There are better places to do that(like the mac forums :p). This thread is to discuss the legal issues regarding the Mac OS X TOS, and weather Apple, Inc. is right in stopping us from using the product which we have legally purchased under reasonable situations.
 

aryayush

Aspiring Novelist
Thanks, ring_wraith! :)

About the restrictive trade practice thing, I would just like to reiterate the point I'd made in an earlier post:
I don't see anyone complaining about any of all those other fields in the technology industry where hardware and software have always been fundamentally integrated, just like Macs are today? Just because Microsoft chose to go a different route, which (as we all know) comes with its own share of problems (that are innumerable), how does it makes Apple's not following them a "restrictive trade policy"? Right from the very first Mac, the Mac OS has always been a part and parcel of the whole computer. Why should Apple have to change just because Microsoft did?
 
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kumarmohit

kumarmohit

Technomancer
^^ Because it is not only MS, but must of the computer industry which has debundled. Linux, BSD, all the major platforms are not tied to any hardware. Apple is the only company with a significant market share in the PC market yet follows a bundle approach when even Steve Jobs himself says that a mac is nothing more than OS X wrapped in a pretty box. Wat Apple is doing is not the norm but the exception!
 

aryayush

Aspiring Novelist
And that's supposed to be a bad thing? A restrictive trade practice? They're the different company in the industry. Everyone knows that. That's what makes Apple what they are.

And, in any case, your argument about Linux and BSD does not apply because these are open source operating systems. Microsoft and Apple are the only two companies who make close source, proprietary operating systems in the industry, i.e. do business, and one of them sells software while the other does hardware. The question of what Linux and BSD do does not apply because they are irrelevant in this comparison. It's one profit making company vs. the rest of the profit making companies in the industry.

Plus, why does everyone keep ignoring the mobile phones and gaming consoles question? Those are computers too, computers that feature coupling of the hardware and software. Incidentally, you'll also note that all these computers are very good at what they do. Apart from the Symbian and Windows Mobile phones, which again stress on separating the hardware from the software, none of those other mobile phones, gaming consoles and media players get infected by viruses or crash or cause other software related troubles.

Clearly, that's the better model. It works better and even Microsoft follows it for its Zune and Xbox lines. Why can't you buy the Zune operating system and install it on an Archos thingy? Or the Xbox OS and install it on a PS3? Don't give me crap about the hardware being different because (a) AFAIK, it isn't all that different; and (b) That does not matter. Software can be made to run on any sort of hardware.

Mac OS X ran on PowerPC processors, moved to Intel and now also runs on Samsung's ARM chip on tiny mobile devices. Windows runs on pretty much everything with a processor in it.

If Microsoft wanted, they could very well have sold the Xbox OS separately and allowed you to install it on a PS3. Do you know what would happen then? They would sell a few more of the Xbox OS and a lot less of actual Xboxes. People would buy PS3s by the truckload, install Xbox OS on it and enjoy both Xbox games as well as PS3s. Sony wouldn't support the Xbox OS and crashes and BSoDs would become common and Microsoft would lose reputation as well as money.

Decoupling software from hardware gave us Windows. If you like it, why do you want Mac OS X anyway! And if you don't, why do you want another Windows with a different name? Because it is assured that once Apple starts selling Mac OS X independently and becomes a software company*, it will become exactly like Windows in about six months. Software and hardware, independent of each other, just does not work as well as them together and Apple is, was and will always be about giving the customer the best experience without any compromises for the sake of saving money. If you don't like that, seek your alternatives. Don't teach them how they should sell their own product to their own happy and satisfied customers.


*And to those who keep saying that Apple is a software company, I would advise you to be a little more attentive when listening to Steve Jobs. The same Steve Jobs who said that Mac was just OS X in a pretty box also quoted Alan Kay as having said that "People who are really serious about software should make their own hardware". He also said that Apple was a platform company during the launch of the iPhone SDK. The thing is that Apple does the whole monty. They make the software, the hardware and develop the combination into a major platform. And they do it all by themselves. They're neither a software company nor a hardware company and they're a software company and a hardware company. They make money from hardware as well as software and all their products are integrated with and interdependent on each other. They don't make stuff in individual bits and pieces. Everything they sell is designed to serve as another part of the whole, which itself constitutes the Apple experience.

And frankly, quality comes at a price and the Apple experience is not for the extremely budget conscious. That's just the way it is and there's really no point *****ing about it. I cannot afford a BMW even though I would really like to own one, but I don't go around shouting that it's over-priced and that the company sucks and they killed my chickens, etc.. I don't know why Apple should be treated any differently.
 

ring_wraith

=--=l33t=--=
Plus, why does everyone keep ignoring the mobile phones and gaming consoles question? Those are computers too, computers that feature coupling of the hardware and software. Incidentally, you'll also note that all these computers are very good at what they do. Apart from the Symbian and Windows Mobile phones, which again stress on separating the hardware from the software, none of those other mobile phones, gaming consoles and media players get infected by viruses or crash or cause other software related troubles.

Exactly the same thing struck me, and I realized that it is technically incorrect to compare the OS of a gadget and the OS of a PC.

The OS of a gadget is actually its firmware, which pretty much outlines the ENTIRE functionality. Its almost like the BIOS of a PC. A firmware is nothing but an extended BIOS. The most you can do to firmware is modify it, you couldn't change the whole thing with one that is from a totally different platform, because the firmware pretty much tells the hardware what to do, and to change the firmware would be to change the manner in which the hardware operates. Just like the BIOS. You can't swap one BIOS with the other, simply because it is and essential element of your PC, and as a result has to come bundled, because without it, the hardware is dead.

The OS, on the other hand, is quite different. The kernel just controls the interaction between software and hardware, and not the actual functioning of the hardware. Hardware is by no means dead without an OS.* And you can swap it out. Therefore, it is restrictive trade to bundle an OS with the Hardware, and not restrictive trade to bundle a firmware, which is what every gadget does.

*[I put this here so as to not interrupt with continuity] I know some people are going to say what can a PC do without an OS? Well, the fact is, the BIOS is an offshot of firmware, and not the other way around. The BIOS by virtue is a Basic Input Output System. If a manufacturer so desired, he could expand the BIOS into a fully functional firmware, allowing your PC to do a plethora of things without an OS.
 

aryayush

Aspiring Novelist
WOW! That does not make any sense. I'm not very aware of how this stuff works but I'm pretty sure that's by design and not due to technological limitations. Mobile phone operating systems do pretty much everything that computers do today, only on a limited scale. And they run on pretty much every device, even though the companies don't make them independently available. Do you think Sony Ericsson writes a custom version of their phone OS for each phone?

And if it really is impossible to decouple the hardware and software on all these other devices, like on computers, how come there are Linux distros available that run on the iPods? You'd think it wouldn't be possible to modify the firmware of an iPod either if it's supposed to be so invincibly unmodifiable on its mobile phone, gaming console and other music player counterparts.

I think you (and others) are just trying to come up with ways to retain the argument that Apple is following restrictive trade policies so that you (and others) can stress on something else against Apple, now that the idea of installing it on a PC being legal has become moot.

The equation is simple: If Apple is following restrictive trade policies, then so is everyone else and it is clearly working for the betterment of everyone, not to mention the fact that all these companies are in it for the money. If they've found ways to make money while maintaining quality among their products (unlike Microsoft, with Windows), it is something to be applauded, not derided. And if what the rest of the industry is doing cannot be categorised as restrictive trade policies, then I don't how Apple's actions can be.
 

mehulved

18 Till I Die............
Microsoft and Apple are the only two companies who make close source, proprietary operating systems in the industry, i.e. do business, and one of them sells software while the other does hardware.
What happened to Netware, HP-UX, Irix, etc?
 

mehulved

18 Till I Die............
Proprietory Operating Systems from Novell, HP, SGI, respectively. And very much alive. And there's a lots more of them around.
 
Proprietory Operating Systems from Novell, HP, SGI, respectively. And very much alive. And there's a lots more of them around.
good point.
just because they are in niche markets everywhere they don't become non existant.
And what about SunOS and Sun Solaris that come with SPARC workstations ? They too are propiatary in nature with a part of their code comming from *nixes just like MacintoshOS.
 

Faun

Wahahaha~!
Staff member
The BIOS by virtue is a Basic Input Output System. If a manufacturer so desired, he could expand the BIOS into a fully functional firmware, allowing your PC to do a plethora of things without an OS.
some mobos are coming with their default os (integrated with hardware) incase the installed os stops workin u can do some recovery and wrap up. You can even play videos and audio.

But the thing that makes it virtually non feasible is the rapid hardware upgrade in PC.

I just forgot the link to the specific mobo
 
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