Apple expensive? I don't think so...

[gxsaurav]

Quote:
Originally Posted by gxsaurav
Microsoft cannot give features in Windows


Who says?? It can and I guess u like to share their plight for it!

Meditator, why r u quoting only half of what i said, why don't u write the full line & comment on that, and do u also have some problem in reading text.....can't u see what me & eddie said above

now, these are the problems, Microsoft cannot even fix this, not because they can't, but because they are not allowed to

I clearly gave reason why Windows crashes, if it's the fault of the driver, u cannot blame Windows OS for it

Seems to me U & Aryaush are either one person playing as both...or connected in some trollish sence

 

[aryayush]

well mate i haven't ever seen the BDOS ever . n any end user who uses his computer will not experience it , it's only when we tinker with system files and all that we rarely experience the BSOD

Of the thirty-one people who have voted in the BSoD thread, only six claim to have never experienced the BSoD. And I am not including people who did not vote but reported that they have seen many BSoDs.
You said that people do not experience BSoDs unless they tinker with the system files. First and foremost, it is not expected of a spanking new Windows XP installation to show a BSoD on first boot anyway and I never claimed that. And what do you mean by tinkering with system files? Opening some critical file in the 'system32' folder and editing it yourself? Or making changes to the boot configuration file? Well, not many people do those things, man. And those that do generally know what they are doing and therefore, do not experience many problems. The problems are faced by innocent end-users who see the BSoD due to some application install gone awry, some malware or virus, improper shutdown, taxing the OS beyond the capability of the hardware, etc. Who cares whose fault it is! The problem is that people have been experiencing the Blue Screen of Death in Windows since it's inception and the legacy has even been continued in Vista (red, in it's case). On the other hand, I have done lots of mods and hacks on my Macintosh and I have yet to experience a single crash. Applications hang sometimes, but it is as simple as right-clicking on their icon and selecting 'Force Quit'. They do not take the whole system down with themselves. And applications getting stuck is also a very rare phenomenon.

Well said zeeshan, now I wonder, if Mac users are allowed to find out how which bin file work in Mac etc

It's not easy to do so even on Windows. Only the most enthusiastic geeks do stuff like that and they have a level playing field on the Macintosh. You can execute a few lines of UNIX code and do stuff like controlling the speed of your fans and when they should come on. I have done it. But I messed it up. My MacBook Pro heated up like bread in the toaster after only fifteen minutes of usage and I panicked. And then it suddenly hung for... like, twenty seconds. Then I got this a message that said 'it seems there have been made some changes to the base code of your system which might lock up your system. Would you like to restore the defaults from the automatically backed up system files?' I hit return and my laptop started making a faint noise as the fans came back on. And it was restored to normal temperature within a few minutes. The OS should be able to handle follies made by the user because the user is not always as expert as Microsoft, and you guys, expect them to be.

Can u plz read above, I wrote this line just to prove that u are wrong when u said u can uninstall anything completely from MacOS X, unlike Windows where everything is integrated & removing it will give problems with OS. Just uninstall WMP in Windows XP or Vista, the engine & decoders are still there, but the player is not. So, all these years u were wrong when u said in MacOS U can completely remove an application when u simply drag it to trash, that’s the point

I said installing and uninstalling applications was as easy as dragging and dropping them wherever you want. And you know as well as the next person that it is a (comparatively) complicated process in Windows. I never objected to the fact that WMP or QuickTime cannot be completely uninstalled. How does it matter whether they are on the system or not. If you want to uninstall them, there should be a simple and straightforward method to do it and this is where Windows lags behind. As I already said, there is no setup wizard for uninstalling WMP in Windows. Furthermore, I only brought up the topic of uninstalling QuickTime because you said that uninstalling it will make the Mac OS go kaput. When I proved that wrong, you are making other excuses now. I already told you that I don't think any Windows user would want to uninstall WMP anyway and the same is true for the Mac, and I do not have any problem with Windows bundling WMP with it's OS. In fact, I would have had a problem if WMP was not bundled with Windows.

By the way, isn’t this the same thing happening in Windows from a long time, & wait, even Windows 2000 users with WMP6.4 can play WMV HD files fine, by just installing the codec, however MacOS X jaguar users cannot play QuickTime 7 files, at least panther is required...wow, great value for money man

What do you mean by QuickTime 7 files? There is no seperate format for QuickTime 7. You must understand that technology has evolved since Mac OS X Jaguar and therefore, it cannot play the DivX and Xvid encoded files that Panther and Tiger handle with ease. The same is true for Windows too. Even WMP 6.4 cannot play DivX and Xvid encoded files.

Any graphics programmer can tell u Expose is not equal to Flip3D, the engine is different, the rendering is different, the technique is different, where do I see copying, no where

I see copying in the basic idea and also a lot of similarities in the implementation. The whole internet is abuzz with how MS has copied Flip 3D from Exposé but you won't agree. Actually, the reason you are not agreeing is that you have not used Exposé yet. Use it once and you will realise that Microsoft has simply ripped it off from OS X. But as I mentioned in the post on my blog, I really do not give a damn whether they copy or not. If they can implement it better in Windows, if they can somehoe refine the technology, it's good. But they actually came up with a poorer solution than Exposé. Can you tell me one useful purpose that Flip 3D serves apart from looking cool (and terribly alaised)? Exposé has a simplistic charm, a very refined and smooth animation and is single-handedly enough to convince anyone to buy a Mac. It is the best way ever to manage multiple windows. Period.

u have to hunt for an application to do a task, not do a task which runs the appropriate application automatically

As if Windows comes with every application you will ever need pre-installed and you do not need to hunt for any applications! Or maybe whenever you open a file that is not recognised, Windows automatically downloads the best application for it and runs it for you!! As if you never hunt for applications for Windows!
In fact, since Mac OS X comes with a lot of bundled applications with it and has a huge list of applications on it's website itself, it is easier to find an application for a Mac than it is for Windows.
No, actually it is the same if you know how to use Google. I never had a problem finding an application for Windows and I have yet to encounter a problem finding an application for the Mac. This is a very baseless point you mentioned.

Oh...k, then why were u talking about BSD in Windows 98 in the other thread...r u still using it right now, should I start speaking about Macintosh System 7 & 9 UI & functionality

I took the latest five releases of both the companies. You are debating on the whole OS X series here, so you should include all Windows version starting from Windows 98.
However, I am sure that even if you compare Windows 98 to Mac OS 9 (but not 8 and 7), you will find that the Mac was still better from the OS point of view... but it had a lot of compatibility problems and because it ran on PPC processors, it wasn't really ideal to buy a Mac at that time anyway. But the scenario has dramatically changed now and Macs clearly have an edge over PCs.
Why are you getting so insecure anyway!!!

u got some problem in reading text or what,,......read again

The cases of BSD with WHQL drivers are one in a million

I was talking about BSoDs in general and you say that 'The cases of BSD with WHQL drivers are one in a million'. What sense does that make! Why are you only considering one cause. We are talking about how often Windows crashes as opposed to a Mac. And even then we are only considering the BSoDs though there are other ways in which Windows crashes too - sometimes it just hangs, there are abrupt reboots sometimes, the interface changes to classic and refuses to change back no matter what you do, etc. - but I did not even include them.

Microsoft was sued by RealNetworks for showing exactly that kind of "resourceful engineering".
*news.com.com/EU+slaps+record+...3-5178281.html

Okay, I did not know about that case. It indeed seems that Microsoft has been wronged out there and I am on MS' side in that case. However, this is all business. Apple has also been on the receiving end of countless lawsuits, albeit of a different nature. But still, I would have supported MS had my opinion counted in the matter.

So, where was i wrong in it? it's trus obviously that poorly written application can crash your system, i mean, u are speaking in a manner that if windows crashes due to a buggy driver it's not the fault of the driver it's the fault of Windows...wow, great thinking man. Like with a poorly written application Mac/Linux won't crash

No, it won't. One great example is Windows Messenger for Mac, it is a very buggy piece of software that hangs and crashes every now and then but it has never crashed my system. There have been some other third party apps too that have been buggy. But it's always the applications themselves that stop responding due to the bugs it has, it has never even affected the other applications running alongside, leave aside the whole operating system. You know what, that's the beauty of it. As a seasoned Windows user, it will be hard to believe for you (if and when you buy a Mac) that you can simply take your machine home, plug it in and start using it. You won't need to install security sotware and you won't need to restart your OS every now and then due to bugs or poorly written applications. It's the 'just works' nature of a Mac that truly makes it a worthy product and far better than what the competition has to offer.

Windows is Insecure, buggy, crashes like hell, lacks features out of the box

Microsoft cannot make Windows secure

Microsoft cannot give features in Windows

Microsoft cannot give a stable platform due to a very huge ammount of hardware & softares available (more then 4500 for Mac atleast)

now, these are the problems, Microsoft cannot even fix this, not because they can't, but because they are not allowed

You are insulting Microsoft by saying all that. Seriously, do you think the company is run by a bunch of stupid teenagers whom anyone can sue and make them do what they wish to! LOL! Microsoft is one of the biggest companies in the world and it is run by none other than Bill Gates, the richest man in the world and the most shrewd and successful entrepreneur and businessman. The company can take care of itself and it can buy companies like Symantec and RealNetworks if it wants to. And it definitely does not need wannabe Windows enthusiasts and random forumers like you and me to garner pity for the company. It is a giant multi-national behemoth that is responsible for the business, eductional and entertainment needs of millions of people around the globe and if it is not being able to handle the task effectively, whatever the reasons, it will have to shoulder the blame for it and nothing you or anyone can say is going to change that. Seriously, the way you said, 'they are not allowed', it sounded as if someone caught their hand, patted their cheek and said, 'Nahin munna, aise nahin karte!' Grow up!

& in case of Mac, they included everything out of the box (but no one sues them, no one gives a damn)

So? Is that the company's fault? And you seem to have been missing the news nowadays, people are suing Apple like crazy for incredulous reasons such as 'iPod Nanos are easily scratched' and 'iPods are too loud' (just lower the volume, you twits!).

it's stable (it runs only on a few fixed hardware configs), the drivers are stable (as there are only a few hardware configs)

That is their policy and it is effective. They have a much smaller market share because of that but those who are their customers are pretty satisfied with their computers and hold the company in high esteem.

it has no virus (tell me a single hacker who would like to crack 4% computer users out there only, insted of 90% others).

You know what, most virus writers hack into an OS because there is money involved. These generally follow the easiest route available and therefore, attack products which are already full of security loopholes. Obviously, Windows is the ideal playing ground for them and therefore, there are so many viruses for Windows (and it IS Microsoft's fault, no matter what you say). But there are others who do it not for the bucks, but for the challenge it is, for the feeling of self-pride and satisfaction of having cracked a seemingly uncrackable piece of code. These virus writers try to hack Mac OS X and they do find flaws sometimes (which are promptly fixed by Apple, as also by Microsoft) but there are simply too few flaws to actually pose any serious security threat. Mac OS X has been around for a long time and Apple and enthusiasts like me have been boasting from day one about how secure it is - do you think there are no virus-writers who have been motivated to hack the Mac!!! LOL! I do agree that as Macs gain in popularity and have a wider user base (and that is bound to happen), there will undoubtedly be a lot of hackers who will be attracted towards the new vista (no pun intended) and will try to crack it. They may also unleash a few serious viruses, but the threat will always be negligible compared to Windows because, accept it now, Mac has been built from the ground-up with security firmly in place and is inherently more secure than any other operating system in existence and specially Windows.

I also have a little more to say about Exposé vs. Flip 3D. This is something I found once when reading something on the internet and saved it for future reference:

Eye-candy for the sake of eye-candy is pointless. Expose vs. Windows Flip 3D for application switching for example. Flip 3D (a 3D stack of your windows) is fancy and flashy but offers little to no value. Expose isn’t as flashy, just resizing some windows, but its hugely useful.

What so few fail to understand is that its not Apple’s flair for design that makes them succesful. Its how they USE that design to make their products more useful to the user. The iPod isn’t a success because it looks pretty (although it helps) or because its crammed with features (its not) its succesful because it does something, and does it REALLY WELL, play music, and now media. But unlike the Zune which lets you clutter up your interface with a background picture, the iPod keeps it clean. Visit just about any mySpace page and you’ll get lots of “eye candy”, and you won’t be able to read a thing (not that there is ever much worth reading).

KISS. Keep It Simple Stupid.

This extract sums it up quite brilliantly, I must say.

 

[mediator]

Meditator, why r u quoting only half of what i said, why don't u write the full line & comment on that, and do u also have some problem in reading text.....can't u see what me & eddie said above

now, these are the problems, Microsoft cannot even fix this, not because they can't, but because they are not allowed to

U dont get fast do u? I already said that the customers aren't interested as to why the microsoft can't fix it. All know microsoft can fix it, but who cares if the things aren't going appropriately and according to MS. No body cares if they are not allowed to fix it. All the customer care about is performance!! So stop justifying ur silly MS support and fanboyism by saying "It can't", "They'll get sued", "Its politics" or whateva. MOst people don't even know such things and aren't bothered about it!

Neways u say I quote half the point?? I alread replied to such thing before, but doing so again specially for u coz it seems u have a very bad habit of forgeting what others already said and then keep making urself look miserable.

If a customer wants stability,security etc and shown with boxes one with windows and other with mac/linux etc, then he will just see the performance and stability and all he wants. He wont give a damn to the manufacturer's politics and its plight or show some brotherhood to the company!

Remember this?? Its just was mah previous post. Why didn't u quote this?? ANd I can bet u won't quote all my points in ur next post too !!

So stop saying that others dont quote u, coz u didn't even quoted/replied to even 30% of points made by me and points made by others in Linux Vs windows debate. All u did was make absurd,ignorant and invalid posts after posts and make personal comments. All were replied by me and none by u properly.

I clearly gave reason why Windows crashes, if it's the fault of the driver, u cannot blame Windows OS for it

U said it also crashes due to poorly written apps. Why r u changing statements?? Just because I proved u wrong on Linux and told How weak windows is?? Ur posts are getting miserable after each post.

Seems to me U & Aryaush are either one person playing as both...or connected in some trollish sence

Started to make personal comments again and radiate ur true form huh?? Why don't u quote other valid points instead?? Absurd,pathetic,obscure etc..... are the words I'll use to describe it. Don't u have nething better to say?? atleast make some valid points!! Ur giving new values to threshold of misery and make urself look even more pathetic!! Neways trollish? U a windows fanboy says such thing?? Amusing!

Can I and everyone expect some sane statements from u ?? MVP?? yea right!! U cudn't make a lotta valid point either here or in Linuxv Windows debate and I guess the stock of ur invalid points is over here too now.

I guess the thread will witness all kinda of absurd,personal comments now from u.

U totally ruined mah observation.

 

[drvarunmehta]

Apple comes up with all these great innovations while Microsoft copies from them and passes stuff off as their own. But at the end of the day it's a Microsoft OS that resides on more than 95% PC's and Microsoft that pockets all the cash. In my book that makes Apple the bigger idiot than Microsoft.

 

[eddie]

Believe me man...Apple would be the last company to ever complaint about "copying". A company that copied the kernel...the initial UI and every little app it has from random places would dare not even say the word "copy". I am sure that if you mention the word "copy" to Steve Jobs...he would be running a million miles away from you

 

[gxsaurav]

Believe me man...Apple would be the last company to ever complaint about "copying". A company that copied the kernel...the initial UI and every little app it has from random places would dare not even say the word "copy". I am sure that if you mention the word "copy" to Steve Jobs...he would be running a million miles away from you

no man, he will patent the word, & release a new technology in Mac by the name iCopy, by which u can copy anything anywhere. & just because it's in Mac it won't be smiliar to normal copy paste

 

[aryayush]

I don't want to start an argument there so I am replying to your post here:

Again, if this thread is about BSD only, then why r u saying this thread is about Widnows vs Macintosh?

blackpearl told me that including Windows 98 did not make sense, so I had to explain to him why I did that. Then Sourabh questioned that the number of BSoDs wasn't a yardstick for comaring two OSes, so I told him that I started a poll because you challenged me that BSoDs were very rare on a Windows PC. I do not wish to drag a Windows vs. Macintosh flame war in that thread at all.

& seriously, should i print it out & send to your home .....read again, i said, The cases of BSD with WHQL drivers are one in a million

I was talking about BSoDs in general and you say that 'The cases of BSD with WHQL drivers are one in a million'. What sense does that make! Why are you only considering one cause. We are talking about how often Windows crashes as opposed to a Mac. And even then we are only considering the BSoDs though there are other ways in which Windows crashes too - sometimes it just hangs, there are abrupt reboots sometimes, the interface changes to classic and refuses to change back no matter what you do, etc. - but I did not even include them.

We do not have access to Mac, we cannot say, if u r lieing about the fact that Mac don't get kernel panic & crashes, maybe even they do a lot, but we cannot find that out

As if I can be totally sure that you are not lying. As if you are Maryaada Purushottam! Why would I want to lie anyway! If I had faced some problem with my Mac, I would mention it without hesitation. But the fact is that there aren't any problems with my Mac to tell you about. Sure, I would have loved something like 'Hibernation' on my Mac, but given that it boots up faster than Windows XP (and even Vista) resumes from Hibernation, it is not a very sorely missed feature. And I simply haven't run into any problems with my Mac. I hasn't hung even once, it hasn't given me any strange error messages, and there are certainly no blue screens - it is working flawlessly.

MacOS X, 5 releses in 5 years , biggest joke of the century. just one major relese & 5 refreshes. How many Operating systems MC relesed in the same time

Windows XP
Windows XP MCE
Windows XP MCE 2005
Windows Mobile
Windows Mobile 2003
Windows XP tablet PC edition
Windows Server 2003 (then R2)

I count 7 of them.....now plz read again

LOL! You have counted the releases not for the PC but for the mobile, tablet PC and server. LOL! How funny and insecure can you get! You might as well include Windows XP Service Pack 2 and Vista Beta 1, beta 2 and release candidate 1. You might also want to throw in the Windows XP unofficial service pack 3 (made by some third party)! Ha! Ha! You have single handedly provided me with hours of non-stop laughs for the past few days. Thanks!
__________

Believe me man...Apple would be the last company to ever complaint about "copying". A company that copied the kernel...the initial UI and every little app it has from random places would dare not even say the word "copy". I am sure that if you mention the word "copy" to Steve Jobs...he would be running a million miles away from you

Oh! Mind enlightening me where they copied these things from? You said 'random places' - isn't that a bit too vague.
And let us suppose they DID copy something from somewhere, but at least they did not dish out something that was worse than the original! They got the idea of Dashboard from Konfabulator, but which is better.
On the other hand, MS copied Flip 3D from Exposé, but which is better (don't make fools of yourself by saying that you actually think Flip 3D is better than Exposé).
In the words of digit:

someone thinks of it, and others get inspired.

But that inspiration should result in a better product, not in one that is worse than the original.
Anyway, I'm still waiting to hear where Apple got stuff for OS X from.

 

[eddie]

Oh! Mind enlightening me where they copied these things from? You said 'random places' - isn't that a bit too vague.
And let us suppose they DID copy something from somewhere, but at least they did not dish out something that was worse than the original! They got the idea of Dashboard from Konfabulator, but which is better.

You are kidding right? You actually replied to the copy comment and that too in negative? My dear friend...look at Apple's history and you will be amazed what all Apple has copied and what all they have actually "created". They don't just copy stuff...they simply take the whole code...

They took BSD's kernel, they took Xerox's UI, they took KDE's browser (konqueror), they took CUPS printing engine, they took Kopete's code in iChat and you come in here talking about copying? Go to the Apple cave and start reading some history books. Also, don't make fool of yourself thinking that they create everything. Sheesh...

 

[aryayush]

You are kidding right? You actually replied to the copy comment and that too in negative? My dear friend...look at Apple's history and you will be amazed what all Apple has copied and what all they have actually "created". They don't just copy stuff...they simply take the whole code...

They took BSD's kernel, they took Xerox's UI, they took KDE's browser (konqueror), they took CUPS printing engine, they took Kopete's code in iChat and you come in here talking about copying? Go to the Apple cave and start reading some history books. Also, don't make fool of yourself thinking that they create everything. Sheesh...

Okay, since I don't know much about Apple's history, I won't argue with you. Maybe they did copy from the places you mentioned. However, you are exaggerating it by saying that they copied the code straight off. As if you were in their labs when they were copying and pasting it or you have compared the source codes!
And anyway, which is better: BSD's original kernel or Mac's refined one? Xerox's UI or Tiger's? Konqueror or Safari? Kopete or iChat? In all these comparisons, the latter is better than the former. What this translates into is an awesome and intutive end user experience that only a Mac can deliver. So, what is the harm in copying those features.
gxsaurav will undoubtedly pop in now and offer that there is no harm in copying Mac's features in Vista. Yes, there is not but at least give your customers something better than the original (or at least as good as it), damn it!

 

[eddie]

Maybe they did copy from the places you mentioned. However, you are exaggerating it by saying that they copied the code straight off. As if you were in their labs when they were copying and pasting it or you have compared the source codes!
Please stop fooling around...

Again you come in and start talking crap. Go and get your facts right before you come in debating. If you don't know then don't just give lame a$$ arguments and make fun of other people by saying that they are fooling around.
It is a well known fact that Apple has been copying around GPL and other open source code. Since they copy stuff so blatantly they have to release their core source which has been diffed a million times by OSS engineers to see how much they copy...result...full fledged copying. Add to that the fact that they return cypher to OSS community and you have probably one of the most fugly leeching companies that OSS has to ever deal with.

And anyway, which is better: BSD's original kernel or Mac's refined one? Xerox's UI or Tiger's? Konqueror or Safari? Kopete or iChat? In all these comparisons, the latter is better than the former. What this translates into is an awesome and intutive end user experience that only a Mac can deliver. So, what is the harm in copying those features.

Oh so copying is not bad cos it is Mac? Ok...fair enough...OSS community doesn't mind that. Just tell Mac fanboys to accept in open that 70% of what they worship has been copied stuff and we will stay in silence. At least give the credit where it is due...just saying that copying is not bad doesn't work. Also, Mac users are probably the biggest whiners when it comes to saying that Windows copied something. This is such hypocrisy I tell you...
Oh...and btw...BSD's kernel is a million times better. You show me one server running Mac OS and I will show you a million for each of them.

gxsaurav will undoubtedly pop in now and offer that there is no harm in copying Mac's features in Vista. Yes, there is not but at least give your customers something better than the original (or at least as good as it), damn it!

Why? A few posts ago you said that it is upto Apple to manage their OS the way they want...then why shouldn't Microsoft be given that breathing space? If people find Windows so bad and Apple is offering them Nirvana then why don't they just move to Macintosh? What is stopping them? Some implanted chip in their brains that has been installed by Microsoft?

 

[gxsaurav]

u r awsome aryayush....simply amazing, i used to think andy is the biggest macboy here, but atleast he knows what he is talking about

it's ok, is apple copies the code, functions, & programs, it's not bad cos it's Apple, but if Vista does the same (according to u) then it's a sin from MS

There is no point of arguing with u after this post, this just shows how blind u r, brainwashed fanboy i would say

 

[mediator]

Hmmmm,, so it seems everyone copies from each other just like students in exams! Neways @aryayush, I will agree to @eddie that BSD's are known for their stability and come close to UNIX when talked about stability and security. They are even better than Linux.

No offence, but I urge both the parties @aryayush and @gxsaurav, fight by posting facts and please don't talk on something u dont know about as it only adds to ones misery and then others start making fun of him.

 

[aryayush]

Maybe they did copy from the places you mentioned. However, you are exaggerating it by saying that they copied the code straight off. As if you were in their labs when they were copying and pasting it or you have compared the source codes!
Please stop fooling around...

Hey, my post is just above yours and I have not even edited it once after posting it. When did I ever type 'Please stop fooling around...'!!! That is a very lowly thing to do on your part, man! Cut the crap!

Again you come in and start talking crap.

Again? As if you have proven me wrong on any of my previous observations! You said they copied features from the open source community and I accepted that because I am not well informed about the subject. And it is not copying anyway because it is stated in the GPL in quite clear terms that anyone may take the source code and use it in their own software without any legal bindations. The company may even sell that software commercially. So, even if Apple DID use open source code in their software (and I only have your very unconvincing word for that), they did nothing wrong anyway.

Go and get your facts right before you come in debating. If you don't know then don't just give lame a$$ arguments and make fun of other people by saying that they are fooling around.

Well, it is obvious that everyone cannot be knowledgeable on every subject. My history has always been weak, whether it be ancient, indian or world history, so it should come as no surprise that I know little to nothing about the history of technology. AND I DID NOT MAKE FUN OF YOU OR SAY THAT YOU WERE FOOLING AROUND!!!! In fact, I have been very civil in all my posts, it is gxsaurav who is resorting to uncalled for comments after being unsuccessful in most of his posts.

Oh so copying is not bad cos it is Mac? Ok...fair enough...OSS community doesn't mind that. Just tell Mac fanboys to accept in open that 70% of what they worship has been copied stuff and we will stay in silence. At least give the credit where it is due...just saying that copying is not bad doesn't work. Also, Mac users are probably the biggest whiners when it comes to saying that Windows copied something. This is such hypocrisy I tell you...

There exists a fundamental difference in the approach of the two companies: Apple used the open source code that is free for anyone to use as they please (and that too, only you are saying that) - Micrsoft, on the other hand, copied most features directly from Apple's closed source. There is a difference between copying and using what is available and free to use.
And why are you making such a huge issue out of this anyway, we were talking about the end-user experience in Windows as compared to a Macintosh and you haven't yet said anything in favour of the former.

u r awsome aryayush....simply amazing, i used to think andy is the biggest macboy here, but atleast he knows what he is talking about

it's ok, is apple copies the code, functions, & programs, it's not bad cos it's Apple, but if Vista does the same (according to u) then it's a sin from MS

There is no point of arguing with u after this post, this just shows how blind u r, brainwashed fanboy i would say

A classic example of jumping onto the bandwagon! Why don't you just stick with your own invalid points man? Just because eddie claims he knows something that I don't and therefore, he has a better point than me one one single matter, does not mean everything I have said is wrong and/or misinformed. It is not necessary that I will be right every time but I have been right most of the times and when I did not know something, I accepted that unlike you. I have proven you wrong several times during the course of this topic. Why are you showing your tail now? Well, of course I know why, you have run out of points and are desperately clinging onto any support available. Sheesh!

 

[eddie]

Hey, my post is just above yours and I have not even edited it once after posting it. When did I ever type 'Please stop fooling around...'!!! That is a very lowly thing to do on your part, man! Cut the crap!

You have lost it or what man? Why would I do something like this? The only one who needs to cut the crap is you. It is clear that you edited the post with in 1 minute of posting. If you do so..vBulletin does not show the edit timings. What would I gain by writing things like those?

Again? As if you have proven me wrong on any of my previous observations!

Yes...
I have already proven you wrong on the "Resourceful Engineering" bit. You forgot so early. Temporary amnesia?

You said they copied features from the open source community and I accepted that because I am not well informed about the subject. And it is not copying anyway because it is stated in the GPL in quite clear terms that anyone may take the source code and use it in their own software without any legal bindations. The company may even sell that software commercially. So, even if Apple DID use open source code in their software (and I only have your very unconvincing word for that), they did nothing wrong anyway.

Dude stop the madness. Ever heard about a site named Google? Why don't you search a little and read a little bit of history? Oh and btw...Google is not paid by Microsoft to index anti-Apple stuff
Also, I have not said that copying is wrong...no copying is not wrong at all but at least don't be pathetic whiners when someone else does the same. When you are releasing software it is obvious that other companies will look at the features and then introduce them in their product. Why whine about it? Also copying is one thing and taking full fledged code is another thing. At least Microsoft is not doing that. At least they are writing their own code. The time when Microsoft is writing their own code...Apple is copying code from OSS community...adding some finished UI and then saying that they are doing some rocket science. THAT IS WRONG!!!

There exists a fundamental difference in the approach of the two companies: Apple used the open source code that is free for anyone to use as they please (and that too, only you are saying that) - Micrsoft, on the other hand, copied most features directly from Apple's closed source.

Google is your friend my dear. Don't take my word for it...go and read...read...read
Also, are you suggesting that Microsoft sent some thieves in Apple Laboratories to steal their code? Microsoft wrote their own code man...not like what Apple is doing...taking whole blocks of code. If you copy yourself then you don't whine about someone else doing the same. It is known as childish behavior. Amusing thing is that Apple never says anything like this (reason is obvious)...it is just their army of ill-informed fanboys that is singing the song of copying.

There is a difference between copying and using what is available and free to use.

Copying is copying...and copying without telling the source is even worse. That is leeching...

And why are you making such a huge issue out of this anyway, we were talking about the end-user experience in Windows as compared to a Macintosh and you haven't yet said anything in favour of the former.

I am making a huge issue out of this because you whined in a huge article about Microsoft copying stuff from Apple. That is like "The Pot calling the Kettle black". I don't care about Microsoft providing any kind of end-user experience. I am an OSS guy and wouldn't give a damn about what happens in Microsoft world. I just hate them as much as I hate Apple but I hate Apple a little more cos they are pathetic leechers and their fanboys are whiners.

From the way you are posting it is obvious that you are no better then gxsaurav. You know only one side of story i.e. Apple's and similar is the case with gxsaurav...he knows only Microsoft's side.

 

[aryayush]

You have lost it or what man? Why would I do something like this? The only one who needs to cut the crap is you. It is clear that you edited the post with in 1 minute of posting. If you do so..vBulletin does not show the edit timings. What would I gain by writing things like those?

You are a cheat and a liar. I have refrained from insulting someone till now but you are clearly blaming me for something that I have not done. I posted that post at 11:10 PM. If I had edited it within one minute of posting, how'd you manage to quote me at 11:51 PM! You are such a... man, I am out of words here!
You've got some valid points and we respect them but this a very sadistic approach to try and get a lead on someone in an online public forum. Get a life, man!!!
__________

Amusing thing is that Apple never says anything like this (reason is obvious)

Bertrand Sarlett spent about ten whole minutes at WWDC 2006 talking about this and digit reported it too (they don't have better news anyway).

From the way you are posting it is obvious that you are no better then gxsaurav. You know only one side of story i.e. Apple's

I know about both Apple and Microsoft, it is just open source that I do not know about and that is why I am keeping mum on the Linux centric discussions.

 

[mail2and]

They took BSD's kernel, they took Xerox's UI, they took KDE's browser (konqueror), they took CUPS printing engine, they took Kopete's code in iChat and you come in here talking about copying? Go to the Apple cave and start reading some history books. Also, don't make fool of yourself thinking that they create everything. Sheesh...

Let us get the facts straight here. Back in the late 70s-early 80s, Xerox placed an offer before Apple. If Apple offered them an opportunity to invest in Apple, they would give Apple the opportunity to visit the Xerox Paulo Alto Research Center twice to check out what Xerox was working on.

Steve Jobs and senior Apple engineers visited XPARC and were amazed by the UI concept. IT was a novel concept not thought of by anyone, including Apple.

What Apple did was pick the concept. They took it further, they refined it, and they put this concept in their OS.

I don't know your credentials, but I doubt your knowledge. Go read company histories and then talk.

The CUPS printing engine is free, and licensed under GPL, right? Who is stopping Microsoft from using the CUPS engine? It is their ego that prevents them from using open source products.

The same goes for Konqueror and Kopete. Do you know how much the Mozilla foundation was p*ssed at Apple for not using the Gecko engine? Tell me, how many people outside of Linux enthusiasts(which I am) knew about the KHTML engine before Apple used it in their browser? It's being ported to Windows, too. I'd be proud if Apple base Finder on Konqueror, the best file manager there is.

It's not called copying, it's called using the product under a particular license, which is completely legal and ethical. Atleast, they don't go claiming that their server product is better than Unix-based server products, with the help of biased and self-funded studies.

Anyways, I understand what your intentions are. The same goes for GX.

The 'Grapes are sour' kind of attitude will not take you anywhere in life. Trust me.

@drvarunmehta- I'm surprised you said that. Apple was in a turmoil because of a string of bad CEOs from 1985-1996. In that period, their market share dropped from 50-60%(I'm not exactly sure) to around 3% of the US market.

According to data released by Gartner recently, Apple's market share in the US has increased to 6.1% of the market, which is pretty impressive, considering that it was around 4.7-4.8% levels a year ago i.e. their market share is increasing after the Intel switch. To put it in simple words, for GX-like creatures to understand, Apple is selling more computers at an average % that is higher than the average % of the market.

 

[drvarunmehta]

@drvarunmehta- I'm surprised you said that. Apple was in a turmoil because of a string of bad CEOs from 1985-1996. In that period, their market share dropped from 50-60%(I'm not exactly sure) to around 3% of the US market.

I'm just trying to say that Microsoft rips off other's ideas and makes OS's filled with bugs and vulnerabilities. Apple on the other hand makes a stable, secure OS. But at the end of the day who is the market leader?
It's a shame that Apple even with a superior product loses out to Microsoft. Their marketing and PR department need to learn a thing or two from Microsoft.

 

[mail2and]

I'm just trying to say that Microsoft rips off other's ideas and makes OS's filled with bugs and vulnerabilities. Apple on the other hand makes a stable, secure OS. But at the end of the day who is the market leader?
It's a shame that Apple even with a superior product loses out to Microsoft. Their marketing and PR department need to learn a thing or two from Microsoft.

I would agree on that part. Microsoft does market its products better.

Despite being the media's darling, Apple can't quite market the features of their OS and their hardware well enough.

A lot of it has to do with corporate sales, though. Apple missed the bus in the late 80s when this market segment was still developing. As I said, the top management was to blame for a lot of mess, including Pippin and Newton, which, despite being amazing products, were introduced a little too early. Especially Netwon. Look what Palm did three years later

 

[aryayush]

See, there is a reason behind Apple trailing so far behind Microsoft. Apple caters to a niche market, it's products are for people who love to get their work done with no fuss, people who don't mind spending the extra buck for class and comfort (gulp!) and people who don't mind being tied down to their hardware. Microsoft, on the other hand, caters to a mass market. PCs can be purchased by anyone at dirt cheap prices (specially in India) and they have lots of customisation options. Such people do not mind being bothered by viruses, bugs and all the other crap that Windows brings with itself.
Therefore, Apple will never be able to gain a very large share of the market and that is not their target. As Steve Jobs himself said:

Apple's market share is bigger than BMW's or Mercedes's or Porsche's in the automotive market. What's wrong with being BMW or Mercedes?

However, what they CAN do is narrow the wide gap between Apple's market share and Microsoft's and they are doing so quite steadily now. Three cheers to them!

 

[eddie]

You are a cheat and a liar. I have refrained from insulting someone till now but you are clearly blaming me for something that I have not done. I posted that post at 11:10 PM. If I had edited it within one minute of posting, how'd you manage to quote me at 11:51 PM! You are such a... man, I am out of words here!
You've got some valid points and we respect them but this a very sadistic approach to try and get a lead on someone in an online public forum. Get a life, man!!!

Man if you can't lick your own ass...it doesn't mean you need to lick someone else's...at least don't lick mine. Go some where else...
It takes sometime for me to type a response...check the previews and then recheck them. Do you think I can just come in and post the response in a few minutes? You are a frigging retard man...I have nothing else to say to you.