Next Gen Console discussion ( PS4 'n Xbox One'n Wii U )

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cyborg47

Technomancer
I was wondering, Gamers on Steam who buy games on day one, never really complain about Steam not allowing used games sales even though the pay the full 60$ price, there were situations like a guy who's account worth 1500$ of games was banned coz Valve found out that he sold it to another guy, and there's an organisation in Germany that's going legal with Valve's policies on second sales...and not a single fcuk is given by any body, but when it comes to the console gaming lot of them are totally against it, why is that?
 

sam_738844

Wise Old Owl
You are completely deviating from the topic friend. You are simply generalizing facts.
Its nothing like what developers want to show you but how efficiently you tap into the power.

Read about cell architecture and you'll understand why multiplats look inferior on a ps3 while exclusives are in a whole different level.
Do you know cell can do vertex shading and compute based ray tracing? Exclusives benefit from that greatly and you can call it a secret sauce.

Ok let me try to make this simple.

You know that java is a very powerful oop language Its extremely robust and has an enormous api set and flexibility.
But still its not used in game development. Instead C++, lisp and other languages are used. C++ is like a default language not only in game development but also
developing operating system kernels. Can you answer why ? If you can answer this , you can get my point.


Even if you don't, i'll correlate everything as simply as possible. :)

Ofcourse a language...but JAVA is altogether a technology. Being Technology JAVA speaks for platform independence,its incredibly robust with its encapsulation and resilient use of ploymorphism and its synchronization with web based and mobile platforms.

But being such a monster, it takes control away...by control programmers mean a lot of things, by control they mean procedural approach, pointer access and full scale memory reference orienation. Game programming needs that much of freaking control. Am not saying that by introducing call by reference, C++ gave birthright to JAVA to take pointers away from us, its like showing you the cookie jar but not giving away.

JAVA as vicky said is abstraction based, means you know many things in your code but you DO NOT know everything, you do not have to. But Game programmers need that "everything known" in their code. Also using a very high level language like java also invites practices like writing wrappers, packages, passing objects and continuous approach of method manuvers....and ultimately doing down to cross-compilation, interpretation and VM.

So it comes down to simple practice of mingling a lil flavor of OOP with a lil bit of good-old low-level touch. Programmers love that.
Also there are SDK's in various platforms are leaned to C++ already. Also vicky i think many platform holders dont really allow VM and JIT compiling right from start? do they?

And for 3D game programming, C++'s strength is speed. There's no default graphics library. For most platforms you could use OpenGL which is pretty good and supported, except in those platforms from Microsoft like the xbox i assume.

And What about C#, its pure OOP though
 
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vickybat

I am the night...I am...
Also vicky i think many platform holders dont really allow VM and JIT compiling right from start? do they?

And What about C#, its pure OOP though

Well i can't say the level in which they allow JIT (Just in Time compilation) but its actually a saving grace from programming latency that VM's bring and therefore java.
There is a JVM known as Hotspot that was initially meant for desktops and servers managed by oracle corporation.

Hotspot itself is written in C++ but relies heavily on assembly language and has some 250,000 lines of source code. It has the JIT functionality and the byte-code it generates is converted to machine code at runtime. So it takes away a lot of latency that VM's usually bring. From java 7 , its the default JVM and thus implements JIT.

It is said that in some cases, optimizations in hotspot jvm can help surpass performance of conventional hand-coded C & C++.
But those cases are few and definitely don't find application in game programming maybe due to added complexities.

Microsoft's .NET framework also uses JIT which means it must be using some sort of VM and thus doesn't find applications in game programming.
I don't have much (maybe nil) knowledge on .NET (C#) though. .NET practitioners here can throw more light into its structure. :)

You can read about Hotspot here .

I was wondering, Gamers on Steam who buy games on day one, never really complain about Steam not allowing used games sales even though the pay the full 60$ price, there were situations like a guy who's account worth 1500$ of games was banned coz Valve found out that he sold it to another guy, and there's an organisation in Germany that's going legal with Valve's policies on second sales...and not a single fcuk is given by any body, but when it comes to the console gaming lot of them are totally against it, why is that?

Still you can lend hard copies right. Its blocked in digital distribution by means of DRM but nothing has been done yet with physical copies.
So atleast there are means of lending and most rental/used game stores benefit from this business.
Consoles (apparently next Xbox) is blocking that which isn't going good amongst gamers.

GameStop: Xbox 720's Ban of Used Games Will 'Significantly Diminish' Demand

But somehow, you can't ignore that Microsoft is a world leader when it comes to developing software. Look at the SDK & the hardware for XBox 360. On paper, it doesn't stands anywhere close to PS3. But have one look on Halo 4's graphics & you'll be blown away but the fact that what Microsoft can do with their awesome SDK. Moreover, Microsoft has a card up its sleeve, XBox Live. So I think that Microsoft has an advantage in the next-gen console war.

Even though i'm a huge playstation fan and more excited about orbis than durango, i can't deny with the facts you have put.
Halo 4 is a looker and i was blown away by it. I never expected xbox 360 to churn that kind of visuals in its exclusives. It puts a lot of high quality PC titles to shame and that too
using stone-age hd 2xxx graphics. Amazing work by "343 industries".

Microsoft has ample development strength which is undeniable and they are also highly capable of extracting maximum performance from their consoles.
It won't be an easy battle for either.
 
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sam_738844

Wise Old Owl
Nice article there in wiki, and actually i did not recall that formal name of Adaptive Optimization....Hotspot...

after acquiring SUN, oracle is trying hard to implement their marketing strategies to globalize and inject JAVA more into platforms where there is still a "do not enter" board for JAVA. One of 'em is might be this AO which is said to surpass even C performance bringing down the time for recompilation.

Also read some more about how c# can fair in Game programming...they say that C# has a bright future in that...since coders migrating from C++ to C# wont have any trouble as its already syntactically similar, OOP and is a "managed language", which means that it automatically does the memory plumbing (GC?) for you It also gives you access to Microsoft's XNA (XNA Not Acronymed...its recursive) Framework that does even more of the tedious plumbing for you. That leaves you to concentrate on things like the game cycle and design.
 

vickybat

I am the night...I am...
Nice article there in wiki, and actually i did not recall that formal name of Adaptive Optimization....Hotspot...

after acquiring SUN, oracle is trying hard to implement their marketing strategies to globalize and inject JAVA more into platforms where there is still a "do not enter" board for JAVA. One of 'em is might be this AO which is said to surpass even C performance bringing down the time for recompilation.

Also read some more about how c# can fair in Game programming...they say that C# has a bright future in that...since coders migrating from C++ to C# wont have any trouble as its already syntactically similar, OOP and is a "managed language", which means that it automatically does the memory plumbing (GC?) for you It also gives you access to Microsoft's XNA (XNA Not Acronymed...its recursive) Framework that does even more of the tedious plumbing for you. That leaves you to concentrate on things like the game cycle and design.

If C# is flexible in that level, then it might be implemented while developing games for next Xbox.
Actually XNA framework's already in use for developing games for xbox 360 and windows. It seems microsoft is really pushing this.
Lets see if i can extract some more info about all this. This certainly sounds interesting. :)
 

RCuber

The Mighty Unkel!!!
Staff member
C++ is not similar to C# atleast in VC++.. everytime I see VC++ code ... I go WTF!!!.
 

sam_738844

Wise Old Owl
XNA is dead. :neutral:

But C# is not...its very unfortunate but true that the launch of Windows 8 and RT Microsoft has shifted from XNA to accomodate sensor-specific application media and apps...for modern devices also making apps more touch-friendly, these new apps will run on both traditional x86 and mobile ARM chips, but as vicky said microsoft will push hard, for a start apps written in HTML/CSS/JS, XAML/C#, or even C++/XAML will be targeting the same WinRT API’s.

So C# has the perfect scope of expansion. then there is MonoGame....what can i say more...reincarnation of XNA? for its same ope source implementation of the Microsoft XNA 4 Framework only...even MonoGame has set their goal to allow XNA developers on Xbox 360, Windows & Windows Phone to port their games to the iOS, Android, Mac OS X, Linux and Windows 8 Metro. PlayStation Mobile development is currently in progress.....is what they said originally....C# has a lot of space to fly and with more feather in its wings...

C++ is not similar to C# atleast in VC++.. everytime I see VC++ code ... I go WTF!!!.

the resemblance is in the object orientation...not in its representation.
 

vickybat

I am the night...I am...
C# is indeed well accepted as the next choice for a game programming language. The following can be considered as a small proof:

C# Game Programming: For Serious Game Creation: Daniel Schuller: 9781435455566: Amazon.com: Books

The word "Serious" in the title itself justifies everything. It also harnesses open-gl . Games developed for orbis might take this up as LibGcm is a derivative of open-gl and like sam said, sony were already talking about C# for their mobile projects.

Now time for some next-gen news: :)

Square Enix Luminous Next-Gen Engine Shows What PS4/Xbox 720 Graphics Will Look Like

Just dropping visuals in the screenshots.:shock:

The Future of Bungie’s Destiny on Xbox 720 and PS4, Timed Exclusives and the PS Meeting

Next-gen PS4 Eye rumored to sport dual 720p cameras, compete with Kinect

EA's money man spills the beans on its next-gen plans


Finally, more proof of why nintendo wii-u is doomed :

NINTENDO WAS NOT READY TO LAUNCH THE WII-U
 
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vickybat

I am the night...I am...
Bungie's Future with PS4 Does that mean Halo ain't a Xbox exclusive anymore ??

Bungie doesn't develop halo anymore. Its now developed by microsoft's in house studios named "343 industries". They developed halo CE anniversary and halo 4 and plan to continue the franchise in next-gen. Halo 4 really has jaw dropping graphics. I never thought Xbox 360 will be capable of that kind of visuals. A very talented studio i must say.

The article i gave is based on a new IP called "Destiny" which will be a multiplatform title developed by bungie. They are no longer under microsoft and thus are free to develop for all platforms.
 

vickybat

I am the night...I am...
Nope, CE anniversary was made by Saber, not 343.

Its actually co-developed by saber and 343i.

Certain affinity worked on the multiplayer of halo ce anniversary and also developed the forge mode of halo 4.

Halo: Combat Evolved Anniversary - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

343 Industries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

cyborg47

Technomancer
Its actually co-developed by saber and 343i.

Certain affinity worked on the multiplayer of halo ce anniversary and also developed the forge mode of halo 4.

Halo: Combat Evolved Anniversary - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

343 Industries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

343i hardly had any actual work on the game, the interviews, developer commentary are more trust worthy than the wikipedia page. 343i could have been a consultant on the project, coz some of the important Bungie staff joined 343i as soon as it was formed, may be they were giving some kinda feedback. But it was all Saber's work, their engine, their idea of switchable graphics, completely remade sounds, etc...
 
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vickybat

I am the night...I am...
343i hardly had any actual work on the game, the interviews, developer commentary are more trust worthy than the wikipedia page. 343i could have been a consultant on the project, coz some of the important Bungie staff joined 343i as soon as it was formed, may be they were giving some kinda feedback. But it was all Saber's work, their engine, their idea of switchable graphics, completely remade sounds, etc...

Yeah i downloaded the ost yesterday. The remastered audio sounds excellent and better than the original. You should listen to -"Cloaked by blackness" which is the remake of "Under cover of the night".
Its my favorite soundtrack from CE.

Ok now some more next-gen stuff:

Next-Gen Will Be 'A Substantial Leap Over The Current Generation' Says Epic

Rumor: Sony Patent Shows New Vita, Possible 4G Capabilities?

New Batman Game Due in 2013
 

vickybat

I am the night...I am...
^^ You are most exited person about these consoles. Are you planning to get any or just curiosity ??

Well you can say both. I was never a pc gamer to begin with. I owned both ps1 an ps2 in the past and had a lot of memorable experiences.
Been an ardent fan of Sony since then. Maybe i'll invest in one of these next-gen consoles someday. :razz:

Ok check this out:

Sony Books Huge Venue for PlayStation Meeting, Perfect Place for PS4 Reveal

PS4 controller: new details emerge pre-reveal
 
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