Does India need a revolution?

Revolution or not?

  • Yes, we desperately need a revolution that gets us rid of this stupid democratic government.

    Votes: 48 73.8%
  • No, I'm happy with the things as they are.

    Votes: 10 15.4%
  • Cannot say. I don't vote.

    Votes: 7 10.8%

  • Total voters
    65
Status
Not open for further replies.

karnivore

in your face..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaraj
An ideal government will consist of a benevolent board/panel of experts

yeah, and who's going to decide who the experts are? (go back to square 1: elections)

U said it man.

There are men who think twice before saying. I am currently engaged in a debate with guys who talk twice before thinking.

What a waste!

It indeed is.

It seems u have nuthing more to say!

Frankly, i don't.

Please if u can't say sumthing useful now then atleast stop ur troll

I am not sure if anybody can say something useful to u. So i stop here.

I expected u to quote me line by line and reply then.

Hmmmm........wondering if it is worth it.
 

mediator

Technomancer
karnivore said:
U said it man.

There are men who think twice before saying. I am currently engaged in a debate with guys who talk twice before thinking.



It indeed is.



Frankly, i don't.



I am not sure if anybody can say something useful to u. So i stop here.



Hmmmm........wondering if it is worth it.
Another troll, please stick to the topic and speak to the point! I can see no relevant point in this post of urs! :)
 

karnivore

in your face..
What a waste! It seems u have nuthing more to say! Please if u can't say sumthing useful now then atleast stop ur troll. I expected u to quote me line by line and reply then. And here u r telling us fairy tales which plagiarized ur mind? How cute! Please go back to my previous post and quote me line by line coz its against forum rulezz to ponce around! :wink:
and yea u gotta breathe and consult that army man in ur family for some enlightenment, coz ignorance combined with ego,arrogance can really kill u.. u know! :wink:

SHOW ME THE POINT OF THIS POST
 

mediator

Technomancer
How can I when u can't read the debate from the start, can't interpret things and only act like a glutton for ur mockery? I can't spoon feed a baby when he is not willing to cooperate can I? How tragic! :oops:
 

mediator

Technomancer
Learn to interpret things and read the debate from start. U'll know the idea of cooperation! "inanities"? Neways ponder on ur insanities and childish behaviour! Can't believe u doubted over those conforming google links. Grow up dude!
 

mediator

Technomancer
^^Done making ur troll...troll boy? Grow up!



Neways for like minded people here, here r some more views and nice reads on revolutionising India!
*www.iitd.ernet.in/convo04/awards.html
*agrariancrisis.wordpress.com/2007/01/15/need-for-a-second-green-revolution/
*hsonline.wordpress.com/2006/07/31/we-need-a-revolution-in-the-education-system-in-india/
*www.thehindubusinessline.com/2006/07/14/stories/2006071401831100.htm
 
OP
Yamaraj

Yamaraj

The Lord of Death
aliasghark said:
no i'm not. just trying to get you back to your senses (if any :p)
You're not eligible. Sorry!

And if you cared to look at the votes, about 70% of Digit'ers are in favor of a revolution. These are educated people with passion for technology, not a gang of villege idiots. You're out of business!

aliasghark said:
now this is the height of insanity. you are now accusing the government of doing exactly the same thing you kept advocating! (wasn't the government supposed to be doing 'nothing'?)
You blew all arguments out of their context. I blame the government for not doing enough, and letting farmers die of hunger. Either they should bring reforms or kill them like the Chinese do.

I hope your 1cc brain is able to grasp that little thing.

aliasghark said:
huh? i thought you meant what you said in your previous post
You can't take sarcasm! If people like you are cognizant, what are they doing to make things better? Casting votes again?

aliasghark said:
no its not
Yes, it is.

aliasghark said:
i'm sorry, i refuse to join your band of pretenders
Mine is not a band of pretenders. But you and your likes are so brainwashed and institutionalized, you've ceased to think.

aliasghark said:
how about it?
Just as you don't run your family as a business, running your country as one is equally ridiculous.

aliasghark said:
nope, that would be you.
Quit whining. If you disagree, just go away.

aliasghark said:
are you offended if you're called yamraj?
You can read English, I hope?

aliasghark said:
your knowledge of history on the other hand, doesn't even go back two complete days. as illustrated in the quotes above, you kept changing sides more often than bush mocks the law
You don't know me. You don't know my qualifications. Don't pretend to.

aliasghark said:
yeah, and who's going to decide who the experts are? (go back to square 1: elections)
Elections don't decide IIT/IIM students. Elections don't appoint professors in your university. Like I said before, you people are brainwashed to the bottom. Election is all you can think about?

aliasghark said:
yamaraj, you poor little chap, i pity you. :( why don't you do everyone (including yourself) a favor and return to tora bora? you won't need to worry about the idiot box there. there wouldn't be any, at your native place. not in your hut, nor your neighbors'. and of course it won't be easy to access the net, but you'll have to learn to deal with it. its for your own good.
Be polite. Personal attacks are not my cup of tea, but I won't hesistate when it starts flowing over my head.

Just go away. This thread doesn't need you.

karnivore said:
Yesterday i met Mr Moron. Haven't seen him lately, so i was really intrigued. As i walked to him, i realized he was busy doing something amazing. It seemed like he was sniffing his.......er......his behind. Now if u look at the dynamics, sniffing one's own butt is an impossibility for a human being, unless of course, if u r carrying the unevolved gene of your prehistoric ancestor.

snipped...
You've revealed your true colors. Come out of the closet, you butt-obsessed repressed homosexual pervert!

I will not reply to any of your posts from now on, and I request others to do the same. It's no more than a waste of valuable time and resources to carry on reasoning with villege idiots. They won't understand anything anyway and keep arguing and griding their axe of personal attacks until they run out of fuel.

Go away.

------------

India's Pseudo-Democracy
Source: - *www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=5806
India's Pseudo-Democracy
The country may not match up to its Asian neighbors in prosperity, but Indians have always been able to boast of the vitality of their parliamentary system. Nowadays, such boasts are heard far less frequently

By Satyabrata Rai Chowdhuri

Recently, India's Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee said that despite the outward appearance of health, Indian democracy appears to have become hollow, with elections reduced to a farce and the "party system eroded due to unethical practices." According to Vajpayee, "The outer shell of democracy is, no doubt, intact, but appears to be moth-eaten from inside."

Indeed, in the preface to a recent collection of his speeches, Vajpayee wondered whether democracy had truly taken root in India. "How can democratic institutions work properly," he asked, "when politics is becoming increasingly criminalized?"

This is a strange turn, for parliamentary democracy has long been a source of pride for most Indians. The country may not match up to its Asian neighbors in prosperity, but Indians have always been able to boast of the vitality of their parliamentary system. Nowadays, such boasts are heard far less frequently.

Not only are India's economic failures more obvious, in comparison to Asia's revived economic juggernauts; so, too, are the failures of its political system. Unprincipled politics, cults of violence, communal rage, and macabre killings of religious minorities have all combined to shake people's faith in the political system's viability. Small wonder, then, that people are starting to ask whether India needs an alternative system of government.

Part of the problem lies in India's deracinated party politics. For decades, the Congress Party of Nehru and his daughter, Indira Gandhi, basically ruled the country unchallenged. But with the assassinations of Indira Gandhi and her son, former Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi, Congress disintegrated and has not recovered. Rather than ushering in an era of recognizable multi-party politics, Indian democracy still lacks a party system worthy of the name.

One reason for this is that there are barely any national parties. Instead, India is saddled with highly volatile leader-based groups. When the leadership is charismatic and strong, the party is a servile instrument. Lacking coherent principles or an overriding ideology, these groups fragment when their leadership changes or splits, as Congress did.

Where parties are weak, there can be no party discipline. India's parliament is riddled with defections by MPs, who move freely from one party grouping to another. So endemic is the buying and selling of legislators that parliament looks a lot like a cattle market. The prizes conferred on opportunistic defectors not only undermine the party system, but weaken the foundations of parliament by making organized opposition impossible.

Public apathy bordering on fatalism is the inevitable result. This is dangerous because apathy does not take the form of withdrawal from public life, but increasingly finds expression in sectarian and religious conflict. Of course, politicians incite many of these conflicts, using caste, sect, and religion--not political ideas--to build voter loyalty. But apathy about democracy is what makes so many ordinary Indians prey to poisonous appeals.

This susceptibility is the clearest sign that India's experiment with the Westminster model of parliamentary democracy has failed to justify the hopes that prevailed fifty years ago when the Constitution was proclaimed. Back then, parliament was seen as a means to bridge the divides of caste, religion, and region. Parliament's increasing irrelevance in sorting out these problems--indeed, its role in exacerbating them--is fueling a growing preference among Indians for a presidential system of government that removes executive functions from the oversight of an institution that has been addled and rendered impotent by undisciplined factions.

Of course, politicians are not the only people at fault here. Sadly, Indian society never really embraced the consensual values that India's Constitution proclaims: a participatory, decentralized democracy; an egalitarian society with minimal social and economic disparities; a secularized polity; the supremacy of the rule of law; a federal structure ensuring partial autonomy to provinces; cultural and religious pluralism; harmony between rural and urban areas; and an efficient, honest state administration at both the national and local level.

Instead, race and caste remain as potent as ever. Wealth is as grossly distributed as ever. Corruption rules many state governments and national ministries. Urban and rural areas subvert each other.

But parliaments demand a minimal national consensus if they are to function, for they are creatures of compromise in decision-making. Executive governments, on the other hand, are creatures of decision: a popularly elected president is ultimately responsible to his voters, not to his party colleagues.

The very election by national suffrage of an executive provides the type of minimal consensus that India's faction-riven parliaments have, sadly, never been able to cultivate. Of course, a president will undoubtedly need to compromise with his legislature, but the general consent that is gained by popular election implies at least some broader agreement behind the platform that he or she campaigned on.

Of course, no magic bullet will do away with the forces that divide India. But at least some of the maladies of the current parliamentary system, such as defection, party factionalism, inherent political instability, and crippling coalition politics can be minimized, if not eliminated, by adopting an executive-dominant model of presidential democracy. In adopting such a system, Indians would have nothing to lose but the corruption and chaos of today's discredited parliament.

Satyabrata Rai Chowdhuri, Emeritus Professor at India's University Grants Commission, is a former Professor of International Relations at Oxford University, and Research Coordinator at the Stockholm International Peace Institute.
 
Last edited:

karnivore

in your face..
I will not reply to any of your posts from now on, and I request others to do the same. It's no more than a waste of valuable time and resources to carry on reasoning with villege idiots. They won't understand anything anyway and keep arguing and griding their axe of personal attacks until they run out of fuel.

= BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAHand some more BLAH BLAH
 
OP
Yamaraj

Yamaraj

The Lord of Death
India: A Democracy?

Source: - *www.viewsunplugged.com/VU/20031211/reflection_democracy_pf.shtml

India: A Democracy?
An insight into the glaring faults of the flawed democratic system in India.
..................

Aaditeshwar Seth

I attended my convocation ceremony at IIT-Kanpur a few weeks back, and I was lucky enough to get a chance of spending almost an hour talking in person with our Chief Guest - Dr. Arun Shourie. Dr. Shourie is the present Disinvestment Minister of India, and he has been credited with revolutionizing free and fair journalism in India when he was earlier the editor of the Indian Express.

We talked about the Kashmir issue and the pathetic lack of decision-making capability by the government. We talked about the atrociously slow judicial process. We talked about the growth of low-researched and negativistic journalism in the media. We talked about the dishonorable corruption record of India. Interestingly, each and every single issue seemed to boil down to faults in the political structure of India. Allow me to enumerate some of the glaring faults of the flawed democratic system of India.

Firstly: Elections in a country having only 60% literacy and very high poverty levels are not fair and democratic at all, because most people vote for a candidate who either threatens them physically, or gives them some monetary incentives. Almost nobody does (or is capable of doing) an unbiased knowledge-based assessment of the candidates.

Secondly: There are such a large number of small political parties that no single party is able to achieve a total majority these days and a coalition government is finally formed, with each constituent party having a different ideology and different preferences. This is completely against the basic theme of democracy, which states that the populace actually votes for or against a particular governing ideology based on industry or religion or other attitudes. Instead, in India the result of the elections is a mixed, ad-hoc, and confused structure that is not able to do justice to even one party that had been voted for.

The coalition members are rather perpetually engaged in mutual conflicts arising from differing personal ambitions, instead of uniting together and handling the functioning of such a large country. Such unstable coalitions often break and no-confidence motions are enforced and more elections are held. First of all, the case for a no-confidence motion should never arise in an ideal democracy. Add to this the tremendous costs involved in funding the infrastructure required for organizing a fair election in the world's largest democracy.

Thirdly: The Opposition opposes each and every proposal made by the Government, either because the Opposition might have made mistakes when it was earlier in power and does not want anybody to rectify them now, or because it wants to reserve the better proposals for itself and implement them when it hopefully comes into power later. Even the Government delays reforms and times them according to the dates of the various upcoming elections to reap maximum benefit. Both groups are logically justified in thinking practically, but as a result, the development of the country slows down tremendously.

Fourthly: In all other democracies, it is customary for the politicians to specialize in a particular field and take up portfolios that they are most capable of handling. This practice is clearly absent in India because cabinet reshuffles are very common, and meritocracy is singularly absent. An even worse situation arises when people who have unresolved criminal records because of the sad state of the Indian judiciary, and people who have not even completed their basic education, are elected into the Parliament.

An engineer in India has to spend his first twenty-two years studying before he can claim that he is capable of solving some practical engineering problems. A doctor has to spend his first twenty-five years studying before he can claim that he is capable of saving a patient's life. How can an illiterate person, and a criminal, claim that he is capable of running a country?

Fifthly: The system of reservation for backward tribes was most apparently evolved as a way of keeping minority groups happy and gathering their votes. Else, by all logic, reservation should have been imposed on the basis of income groups, instead of being done on a caste basis. This has only led to a very lowly form of exploitation of the system by the politicians. The result is that incapable people get to run the bureaucracy, and the ones who should be benefiting from the reservation policies are still helpless, blindly voting for the politicians who are good at giving speeches on discrimination and human rights violation. Furthermore, the system of reservation has contributed more towards the segregation of segments of society, than towards the united and cooperative betterment of the needy.

Sixthly: As a sad culmination of all the above reasons, corruption has traveled down from the highest political office of the country to right down to the peons who work in the government offices. This culture of corruption is deeply intertwined with the way power is won, exercised, and retained in the Indian political system.

I finally told Dr. Shourie that it was apparent that the fault lay in the Indian way of democracy and the way it had evolved over the years. He just spoke a single sentence - "The caste system of India has ruined us."

The reason became immediately clear to me because most of the problems of the democratic system could be attributed to the highly fragmented and disunited multi-party scenario, and this was a result of the caste system in India. On gaining independence, we started with an ideal democratic India with just a few parties, but soon these parties discovered an easy way to guarantee themselves votes by taking advantage of the communal groups in India. Coupled with the personal desire for power, the original bi-party or tri-party democratic India (similar to the bi-party British system) broke into smaller and smaller political parties, and ruined the very spirit of democracy. The result has been all the points that I enumerated above, and many more. I would term India as only an "artificial-democracy" at the very best, because achieving democracy seems to be possible at two levels. One would be a democracy in spirit where social justice, human rights, participation from all groups, and the redistribution of wealth is ensured. The second would be a democracy in name where regular elections are held, the constitution is followed, and justice is guaranteed. India appears to have been targeting the easier second alternative, but unfortunately, we have not been successful in achieving that either.

If you think deeply, you will easily agree with the fact that any kind of a democracy forces everybody to be selfish and work not towards the welfare of the nation, but towards their own personal gains and personal power - the national welfare is expected to follow as a parallel and secondary effect.

Look at it this way: In an ideal competitive democracy, all politicians will try to ensure more votes for them, which will in turn be possible only if they work in the interests of the nation and its people. However, the problematic clause is that the politicians can ensure votes for themselves not necessarily "only" through working towards the welfare of the nation, but also through a dozen other work-around methods. The Indian politicians have perfected these other alternative methods, taking advantage of the poverty and the low literacy levels in the country. A side effect of the Indian democratic system has definitely been positive development, but so has been the growth of extensive corruption. This corruption has evolved because of the very nature of the system and the way elections are won and the country is ruled.

I asked Dr. Shourie if he could give examples of some other countries that followed a political system similar to the Indian democracy and were yet doing well, but he could not name even one such country. I next asked him what he thought could be a solution to this seemingly impossible problem. He sadly shook his head and said -

"I'm sorry young man. India evolved in a very inappropriate way. Many mistakes were made and they should have been corrected much before, but nobody tried or even wanted to rectify them.

"There is a saying in psychology - A Breakdown is a Breakthrough - which means, that once a person breaks down, then this is actually considered to be a breakthrough because the person needs to start afresh. India will continue going down the ruins for some more time, and should wait for a breakdown of the present structure. Only after that can a more mature political structure be put into place."

----------

The KGB and Indian Democracy

Source: - *www.deeshaa.org/2005/09/18/the-kgb-and-indian-democracy/
It’s not surprising but it is still news to me that the KGB attempted to steer the Indian ship of state. I grew up hearing rumors of the CIA doing all sorts of nasty things around the world, of course. The KGB, as the other spy in the real life adaptation of the Mad Spy Versus Spy, was as active I conjectured. Clearly India had enough commies crawling around for the KGB to find willing agents. So when I read (via The Acorn) the TIMESonline of the UK report that KGB records show how spies penetrated the heart of India, I was a sadder but wiser man:



A HUGE cache of KGB records smuggled out of Moscow after the fall of communism reveal that in the 1970s India was one of the countries most successfully penetrated by Soviet intelligence.
A number of senior KGB officers have testified that, under Indira Gandhi, India was one of their priority targets.

“We had scores of sources through the Indian Government — in intelligence, counter-intelligence, the defence and foreign ministries and the police,” said Oleg Kalugin, once the youngest general in Soviet foreign intelligence and responsible for monitoring KGB penetration abroad. India became “a model of KGB infiltration of a Third World government”, he added.




Despite her own frugal lifestyle, suitcases full of banknotes were said to be routinely taken to the Prime Minister’s house to finance her wing of the Congress Party. One of her opponents claimed that Mrs Gandhi did not even return the suitcases.



The Russians were also extremely active in trying to influence Indian opinion. According to KGB files, by 1973 it had on its payroll ten Indian newspapers as well as a press agency. The previous year the KGB claimed to have planted 3,789 articles in Indian newspapers — probably more than in any other country in the non-communist world. By 1975 the number of articles it claimed to have inspired had risen to 5,510. India was also one of the most favourable environments for Soviet front organisations.

OK, so far so good. An instructive story indeed. But what lesson does one draw from it? That the Soviets tried but failed to influence India materially? Maybe. But I don’t understand the position of one reader of The Acorn when he wrote:


What an amazing story. One of the (then) world’s superpowers pumps in millions, and yet, our democratic institutions have been strong enough to withstand them.

The article says that between 3 and 5 thousand stories had been planted in the Indian press and that the prime minister had been bribed. The press and the prime minister’s office, I guess, are important democratic institutions. They were compromised. It hardly speaks to the strength of our democratic institutions.

Now the rejoinder may be this: “Yes, but don’t you see the Indian voter, so wonderfully perceptive, immediately saw through those thousands of planted stories and recognized the corruption of the Congress decided to vote them out of office? Amazing rectitude and foresight and perspicacity of the Indian voter, isn’t it?”

Indeed it would be, if only this were true. The average Indian voter did not read newspapers and therefore whether they contained planted fake articles or they contained the wisdom of the ancients is not material. The average Indian voter could not even know about the corruption at high levels, especially when it come to the party of Gandhi (happily ascribing the old man’s virtues to Nehru’s children). This was so because the average Indian voter was an illiterate rural voter who was as likely to read the doctored papers as I am likely to read the Pravda—hardly likely since I am illiterate in Russian.

What scared the holy crap out of the average Indian voter was the rumor that the government of Indira Gandhi was out to castrate him. It all started with the idiot Sanjay Gandhi forcibly administering vasectomies on some hapless poor people in a misguided but well-intentioned effort to stop the population explosion. To the above mentioned average Indian voter, castration and vasectomies are synonymous. It was their fear of losing their gonads and being turned into eunuchs that did the trick, not some imagined resilience of India’s “democratic institution.”

It is not hard to determine the source of the confusion about India’s much trumpeted democracy. It arises from the mistaken belief that democracy is about going to a voting station periodically to cast a vote for a party of one’s choice. True, democracy is about choosing who you want to give the power to govern you. But is it not just choice, it is about informed choice. How one can be informed about parties and people who are so far removed from one – geographically, socially, economically, psychically – and with the additional handicap of being illiterate, is a mystery to me. To me, democracy means a lot more than an uninformed horde putting its thumb impression on a symbol (most people cannot read) and the choice is sometimes dictated by a harmless petty bribe, and sometimes by the more pernicious promises of the politicians such as free power or job reservations.

Democracy is not about the periodic general elections in which the choice is increasingly limited to a gallery of the most corrupt thugs in the constituency. It is about democratic institutions such as a free and informed system of electing of public-spirited political leaders, a free market, an efficient legal system which recognizes property rights and enforces contracts without delay, a police force that prevents crime instead of doing crime, a rule of law that recognizes all its citizens as equals and is blind to religion and creed, etc, none of which are developed in India.

There is no reason on earth why we don’t have a good democracy in place. Or maybe there is a good reason. India’s feudal past could explain it to some extent. With a long history of being serfs and slaves, bending in servitude comes naturally. True, voting allows a person to choose, but serfs and slaves can vote the feudal lord into power pretty effectively.

We need democracy in India now. Since democracy is of the people and by the people, the people have to be at the very least informed and not ignorant. We the people have to become literate and educated before we can truthfully boast of being the largest democracy in the world. Until we become literate and educated, I would not speak too loudly of how great a democracy we are.

Ascribing the failures of the KGB to a mysterious maturity of the Indian democracy makes one feel good but lulls us into complacency that we have arrived and there is no need for any futher effort.
And some self-proclaimed intellectuals are still proud of this worthless pseudo-democracy of ours. Pity on them!

-----------

Pushing India Toward A Dollar Democracy

Source: - *www.countercurrents.org/gl-shrivastava311006.htm
Pushing India Toward A
Dollar Democracy

By Aseem Shrivastava

31 October, 2006
Countercurrents.org

In an article concerned with the rapid urbanization of India and China, a writer for London's Financial Times (August 5/6, 2006) points out that Bangalore "has become a byword for a catastrophic failure of urban planning."

Interestingly, he attributes this lapse to "Indian sentimentalism about the supposed benefits of village life, and the consequent incompetence in managing cities" which "contrasts starkly with the ruthless pragmatism of the central and local authorities in China."

Let us not bring up that bugbear of the absence of democracy in China just yet, no matter that the Anglo-Americans are all so keen to bomb us all to "freedom" these days, China being that fearsome and much envied exception.

More worrying are the writer quotes from supposed Indian experts. One of them is K.E. Seetharam, a water and sanitation expert from the Asia Development Bank in Manila, according to whom "civilizations have always been urbanised" and "this concept of rural development is something more recent and in my view doesn't exist."

Is this man truly Indian? Has he forgotten those school history lessons about the Indo-Gangetic plain and the role it has played throughout time in sustaining the economies and cultures of empires from the Mauryan to the Mughal? Or, seeing as he comes from South India, he might visit a library and read about the role of the farmers of the Kaveri and Krishna basins whose taxes helped maintain the splendour of the Vijayanagar courts.

However, to be fair to Mr. Seetharam, his view has widespread currency today. And this is why it is so dangerous. The reasons for the prevalence of the view are not far to seek. The industrial revolution treated from the beginning the countryside as a hinterland for mineral resources or as a sink for its effluents. It made it easy to forget the fact that industrial workers (often dispossessed peasants) and their bosses were fed on food that the farmers grew in the villages. Also, since cities grew around industries, it gave birth to the illusion that civilisations have always been urban.

Even when civilisations have been formally urban, as in the cities of the ancient world, like Athens or Sparta, they have often had, believe it or not, little to do with commerce or industry (those being of least importance to Greek citizens and thinkers), unlike our cities today, offshoots as they are of industrial growth.

We would be well-advised to suspend our intoxicating amnesia, bred of industrial affluence, (and effluence) and recall at least a bit of what the countryside has contributed to human civilisation. From legends and myths to melodies and dances, human culture anywhere is unimaginable without the backdrop of rural inspiration.

This is not the place for it, but here is a sampler, unjust as it necessarily is. Great landscape art * from delicate Chinese woodcuts to Van Gogh's majestic canvases * have been inspired by nature, available only in the countryside. Beethoven's pastoral is hard to imagine being inspired by urban industrial noise. Nor can the poems of the Romantics, whether in India or in Europe.

Thomas Jefferson's dream of a free American republic was peopled with farmers. Gandhi championed the idea of village republics for a reason. Rabindranath Tagore set up Shantiniketan in the countryside when he could as easily have done so in Kolkata. So many of our great bards, from Lalleshwari to Tukaram, sang to the lord in the jungles and the meadows.

Our tragedy today is that William Blake's warnings about the "dark, Satanic mills" of London went unheeded by Western culture. Independent India, which has never decolonized culturally, followed suit.

The concept of rural development does not exist? Would the Prime Minister be willing to repeat that in front of a meeting of villagers anywhere in India before the next elections, apprising them of the latest wisdom of our policy experts?

Even more chilling, the Financial Times article goes on to argue that the mismanagement of Indian cities is to be blamed upon the fact that Indian politicians are "obsessed with the problem of rural poverty" and thus drag resources away from urban development! "One reason for this illogical approach is politics: India is a democracy. For historical reasonsthe countryside is over-represented in the political system and power rests with the state government, not with the cities."

So the lament is that, alas, for "historical reasons", India is a democracy and the villagers carry too many votes. Talk about doublespeak in the mainstream of the Western media!

The FT writer seeks further explanation for the state of Indian cities from someone much more influential than Mr. Seetharam. Nandan Nilekani is the CEO of Infosys, one of India's software flagships. He represents Indian business interests at the World Economic Forum meetings in Davos every year. He is approached by all the Western media outlets whenever representative views from Indian corporate circles are wanted.

Listen to what he says: There is "a disconnect", he points out, "between the economic power and the political power." Bangalore with only 10% of the population of Karnataka state contributes 60% of the state's GDP. However, it has only 7% of the state assembly seats.

So what is to be done? Here might be a foretaste of things to come: "In China you don't have that problemIndia is the only example of urbanisation (on this scale) happening with universal adult franchise."

So the moral of the story is that urbanisation shouldn't happen with universal adult franchise. When the West urbanized it did not have universal suffrage. China continues to urbanize only because there is no democracy. Nilekani's diagnosis of the problem is accurate. The problem lies with its one-eyed superficiality, drawn as it is from the premises of industrial growth, predatory on the countryside.

Shall we take the Chinese route to industrial greatness and do away with the nuisance of democracy which, in any case, has nothing to do with capitalist success and does plenty to put brakes on it? That, at this stage of history, might prove to be politically explosive in India (no thanks to the West that we are democratic). What the increasingly political corporate elite will want to experiment with is a set of constitutional amendments that fiscally empower cities at the cost of the countryside, correcting in favour of urban India the disconnect that Nilekani mentions. This cannot happen without deep-rooted changes in the very structure of Indian government and politics. Jurists would be able to tell us more though there are surely many corporate fantasists dreaming of globally networked, autonomous post-modern city-states!

Let us be clear. Nilekani is arguing, in effect, for a "dollar democracy", where one rupee will count for one vote, rather than one person. Does anyone see how gigantic a retrograde step this would be in human affairs? It means setting aside all the mammoth political and cultural efforts ranging across the centuries and the continents that have gone into enfranchising the historically powerless. In the long historical argument between town and country, the metro now wishes to intervene with decisive finality. It is a dangerous trend, whether it is observed in India, China or elsewhere.

In the US they have achieved a dollar democracy without major constitutional amendments. However, it is easier to brainwash and fool a well-fed electorate which can take out loans to buy vacation homes and BMWs. Achieving the same political feat in India is not going to be easy at all. That, in fact, is the reason why during the past 17 years, in the six general elections the country has had, the incumbent party has not been returned to office even once, a fact unmatched by any world democracy.

What people like the writer of the FT article, Seethram, Nilekani and so many others, for whom they are the spokespersons, would ideally like to see is India grow as "smoothly" as China (or 19th century Dickensian Britain), with the nuisance of things like "democracy" and "rural development" out of the way. Indian cities, their slums duly demolished and put out of sight of visiting investors in air-conditioned cars, will then wear the gloss of Singapore or even London, starved rural underbellies not in view.

But alas, you cannot hide 300 or 400 million starving mouths, and the insistently unjust social reality of India will break through into one or another rear-view mirror, disturbing the fantasies of financiers' wives and girlfriends.

Time to recall William Blake once more: "When nations grow old, art grows cold and commerce sits on every tree."
 
Last edited:

aliasghark

who? what?
karnivore said:
Yesterday i met Mr Moron. Haven't seen him lately, so i was really intrigued. As i walked to him, i realized he was busy doing something amazing. It seemed like he was sniffing his.......er......his behind. Now if u look at the dynamics, sniffing one's own butt is an impossibility for a human being, unless of course, if u r carrying the unevolved gene of your prehistoric ancestor.


Hey buddy what r u upto ?
- I am looking for a solution for India's problem.


In your.........behind ?
- SSSHHHH........not so loud. Don't tell this to anybody. Something went wrong in the evolutionary process and i ended up with my brains in my........er.......butt. Now everytime i try to think i spew crap all over the place.


Oh, evolution has been pretty unfair to u. Anyway, how do u propose we solve this problem ?
- We should organize a revolution. Bloody or otherwise. Its the only solution.


Can u please elaborate ?
- We should ask our military to arrest our corrupt ministers. To hell with Constitution, to hell with Judiciary, to hell with legislature and to hell with electorate.


U think it can be done that way ?
- Of course. Running a country is just like a computer game. U don't like the game ? Simple. Uninstall. U don't like the regime ? Simple. Organise a revolution.


BTW, how should the military make arrests ?
-Who cares. We will ask them to.


Err, did u know that military can't take suo motu actions ? It needs permission of the Parliament ? Also military cannot make civil arrests ? It lies only with the police ? If it still goes ahead and does that, it will be called coup d'tat ?
-Coup what. Hang on a sec. Let me google that. But then again, who cares. They will do what we ask them to do. They are my paternal property.


Did u know that India did come close to a dictatorial rule ? It was Ms Indira Gandhi who declared "Emergency" and brought India to the brink of what u want ? No one in India had a pleasant experience at that time ?
-Who cares. We want military rule, bus, thats it. Your logic stinks.


The world is yet to see a benevolent military regime. Can u name one ?
-Let me Google that.


Suddenly, i felt a terrible urge to puke, don't know why. Probably indigestion. Got to buy 10 Eno packs. One would be of no help.


But don't u think that a revolution is just too much for India to handle right now ?
- Come on we did that before, we can do it again.


We did that before ?
- Of course. Gandhi did that. HE was a "revolutionist"


Where did u get that ?
- Why, from Wiki and Google. These are extremely reliable sites.

Err, they were referring the concept of non-violence, "revolutionary", the mass civil movement, "revolutionary", as in "spectacular", as in "refreshingly different from the war torn world that only saw violence as a means of change" ? U do know that the word "revolution", when used in political context, assumes a different meaning ?
-DUH, who are u. A Ph.D scholar, a professor.


Why don't u read about the life and works of Gandhi ?
-[Whisper] Please, i beg, i implore. Don't ask me to read books. I use pages to wipe my.....er, u know what.
-[Loud, almost a shout] Of course i do. Wiki and Google are my best friends.


I finally realized why i felt like puking. I was half drowned in some vile thing which had a yellowish tinge and a pungent smell. Got to figure out what that thing is.


OK, for arguments sake, lets assume that Gandhi was a revolutionist, and peaceful revolution is possible, and that it is possible to get our military to do what u want, but don't u think we will be missing an opportunity here ? Democracy at least gives u the opportunity to rectify your mistakes.
- Dictatorship spares you from making mistakes in first place.


That vile thing is now upto my nose. Gotta..........breathe.......fresh air.......dying.......HELP.

:lol: :lol: :)) :lol: :grin: :wink: :grin: :)) :grin: :wink: :)) :grin: :)) :lol: :D
 
OP
Yamaraj

Yamaraj

The Lord of Death
Is India A Democracy?

Source: - *www.kulsh.com/Is-India-a-Democracy.htm
Is India A Democracy?

By Ajay Kulshreshtha | Ajay@Kulsh.com | California, USA

Some time ago, on a Sunday news program, late Theodore H. White, a well-established American political observer (author of “The Making of the President” series of books) declared that India has been a Soviet-supported dictatorship for many decades. Next to him were sitting the top brass of ABC News including Sam Donaldson and then-national-anchorman Frank Reynolds, but none of them bothered to correct him… If the most politically-informed segment of American society – the journalists – do not associate India and democracy, imagine what an average American thinks, if he or she think about such matters at all.

We, in India, feel an affinity for American political system, thinking of it as the most powerful democracy in the world, while ours is the largest one. But on coming to US we realize that there is no such reciprocal affection for Indian political system in America. None at all… In the American mind, democracy conjures up an image of prosperity and opportunity. How can a wretchedly poor and backward country like India be democratic?

But India is democratic by the criteria that are extolled non-stop by American politicians and media – freedom of speech, freedom of press, government formed by representatives of people elected by popular vote, etc…. So what is missing? Why we do not see the benefits that supposedly flow from the political system that is so highly touted here? Why does India not find itself any closer to the democratic objectives of equal opportunity and betterment of masses, despite following the Western political prescription so wholeheartedly and for so long?

Is the problem with the patient or with the prescription? Netaji Subash Chandra Bose, more that a half century ago, in stating that India is not ready for popularly elected government, seemed to say that problem is with the patient but on seeing political process in action in Western countries, the recommended political model seems equally suspect. After all, how good a political process be under which so often gullible-many elect incompetent-few? And these incompetent or semi-competent few are invariably corrupt to varying degrees. This is reflected in the fact that these representatives of the people are often called “the lesser of evils” or “the best money can buy”.

But are not all advanced nations of the world run by such people and these nations are thriving? Why can’t India?

A closer look would reveal that the role of politicians in the achievements of developed countries is rather limited. The continuing success of America, for example, may have little to do with likes of Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton, and everything to do with likes of John F. Welch and Bill Gates. More often than not, the elected officials play a passive role in the growth of these societies.

But, again, why can’t this happen in India?

Comparing an advanced nation and India is like comparing two trains – one that is on tracks and the other deep in the mud with tracks nowhere near. People with below-average ability can keep the first train going but it will take gargantuan talent and effort to put the second train in motion. The people who come to the top through mass elections in India are utterly unfit to provide the requisite leadership.

But have not other underdeveloped countries succeeded with popularly elected leaders at the helm?

In fact, such an example is hard to find… Let us look at the nations that have been successful in improving the lot of their people in recent human history. In the 19th century, both Japan and Germany were able to transform themselves, former due to the initiatives taken by members of Samurai clan, and later with the help of leaders like Bismarck. In the 20th century, many nations in east Asia, namely, Taiwan, Korea, Hong Kong and Singapore have dramatically improved the fortunes of their citizens – and not a single of them employed universal suffrage to choose their leader, certainly not in the critical early decades.

Currently we see China – with no political participation by general populace – progressing by leaps and bounds, as evidenced by their massive trade surplus with USA. On the other hand, there is Russia, where freedom to vote has come accompanied with economic collapse and social disarray. How many Russians are feeling blessed?



Thus the much-ballyhooed political model, based on popularity contests, has never worked for any undeveloped country and holds no hope for advancement of India. But can we even call India a democracy? Can giving public freedom to cast ballot be the sole criteria of democracy? An end in itself? Or, do democratic ideals aim for broader goals?

It would seem that democratic principles call for a place where law and order is respected…where dishonest and criminal tendencies of people are curtailed…where everyone - with talent and diligence in chosen field - has opportunity to advance and prosper.

Can a society where kidnappers – both foreign and domestic – have more sway on the elected governments than its law-abiding citizens, call itself democratic? …Should a country where corruption is so rampant that an honest person feels suffocated, be called democrat? …Can a nation whose people often excel overseas, but which itself ranks near the bottom in the world in competency, actually be following democratic principles? …After five decades of free elections, about half of world's hungry people live in India. Is not democracy supposed to eradicate such problems? Has not Nobel Prize been awarded for such ideas?

India, in its current state, is not a democracy in any meaningful sense. (Nor, of course, it ever was a Soviet-supported dictatorship.) True democracy – a fair, equitable social environment – can come to India only after major political restructuring. Overseas Indians, especially those living in US, have primary responsibility - because of our clout - to ponder what these political changes should be and how to spur them.
 

aliasghark

who? what?
Yamaraj said:
Elections don't appoint professors in your university.
there there yamaraj, remember not to talk twice before thinking. the prospective professors, you'd realize if you'd spend some time thinking, go through a selection process which involves people evaluating them. ah, back to square one again? who gets to appoint the professors? aww, you're stuck again! (similarly, if you've failed to see, the students are interviewed and selected by people. who gets to appoint those people? :eek: )

refusing elections won't take you anywhere, boy!

----------------------------------------------

this,
Yamaraj said:
Be polite. Personal attacks are not my cup of tea
and then this:
Yamaraj said:
Come out of the closet, you butt-obsessed repressed homosexual pervert!
:(
 
Last edited:
OP
Yamaraj

Yamaraj

The Lord of Death
aliasghark said:
there there yamaraj, remember not to talk twice before thinking. the prospective professors, you'd realize if you'd spend some time thinking, go through a selection process which involves people evaluating them. ah, back to square one again? who gets to appoint the professors? aww, you're stuck again! (similarly, if you've failed to see, the students are interviewed and selected by people. who gets to appoint those people? :eek: )

refusing elections won't take you anywhere, boy!
I refuse to correct someone who cannot even tell professionals from illeterates and uneducated. As per your laughable logic, the quality of IIT/IIM would've only increased if the professional selectors were replaced by common voters.

If you still want to post in this thread, and desire to be taken seriously - be polite, and try not to have arguments only for the sake of having them.

aliasghark said:
this, and then this: :(
You comment doesn't make sense after this:
aliasghark said:
Grow up, hypocrite!
 

karnivore

in your face..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaraj
Elections don't appoint professors in your university.

there there yamaraj, remember not to talk twice before thinking. the prospective professors, you'd realize if you'd spend some time thinking, go through a selection process which involves people evaluating them. ah, back to square one again? who gets to appoint the professors? aww, you're stuck again! (similarly, if you've failed to see, the students are interviewed and selected by people. who gets to appoint those people? :eek: )

refusing elections won't take you anywhere, boy!

----------------------------------------------

this,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaraj
Be polite. Personal attacks are not my cup of tea

and then this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaraj
Come out of the closet, you butt-obsessed repressed homosexual pervert!

Can u believe these guys. When the whole world is thinking of how to make democaracy more perfect, these guys want to take a million steps back to the stone age.

BTW yamraj ( oops i did it again ) is yet post a paper which says " oh u have problem in your democracy, have a dictator or let ur military take over ".

You comment doesn't make sense after this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by aliasghark
:lol: :lol: :mrgreen: :lol: :grin: :wink: :grin: :mrgreen: :grin: :wink: :mrgreen: :grin:


Grow up, hypocrite!

So now u will dictate what to enjoy.

No wonder, u want dictatorship
 
Last edited:

aliasghark

who? what?
Yamaraj said:
As per your laughable logic, the quality of IIT/IIM would've only increased if the professional selectors were replaced by common voters.
nope, thats your twisted logic. what i meant was that the 'selectors' won't fall from the sky. they need to be appointed too. who's going to do that?
 

zyberboy

dá ûnrêäl Kiñg
Yamaraj said:
Be humble!

lol...u r not at all humble anywhere in this forum.




Yamaraj said:
An ideal government will consist of a benevolent board/panel of experts, philosophers, scientists like APJ, and benevolent buisnessmen like Narayan Murthy, military generals, educationists, economists, farmers, entrepreneurs, students and representatives of all social classes. There won't be a place for dirty politics and evil politicians. No corruption will be tolerated and traitors will face martial law. Everyone will have equal and high-quality education, and there will be no reservation. There will be one law for all, regardless of religion, caste, gender or anything else. Government will not recognize any religion or caste officially. Entire bureaucracy will be refabricated to suite Indian environment.

Your system only looks good in paper,Everyone can simply say abt their own ideal govt which is easy job. And all tat u said already exsist in our current system, like corruption will not be tolerated,everyone is treated as equal, r all in there.What so magical abt ur system which will prevent corruption.Ok we can trust some of the top panel members,how can we trust others.Corruption also exsist in well educated employees also isn't ?.And we r not going to control one single district we need to think all of india.I think this system can only bring chaos tan order since everyone will have different policy.And we will lose all the advantage we hav now by this revolution.And there is no gurantee tat dis will work.Improvements to our current democracy is wt needed,revolution will be a stupid move,And CIA n ISI will be more tan happy as they get the same thing which they r trying to do,so tat india will get partioned or can upset our current system and will be no more a threat to their economy.
Wt i heard is ISI officials are happy when they saw this thread....lol



Yamaraj said:
And if you cared to look at the votes, about 70% of Digit'ers are in favor of a revolution. These are educated people with passion for technology, not a gang of villege idiots. You're out of business!

This is becoz they are brainwashed by negative news ,they think everything in india r wrong n they always make interest in hearing corruption,crimnals.Read positive things tat india is achieving, read both and then think.
 
Last edited:

ketanbodas

Journeyman
We need one. But everyday we die a little and as a result we are getting used to the disgust. Wat is needed is a TRIGGER for only some imp event of profound proportions can create a revolution. Revolutions are not planned; they happen.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom