Do UFOs/Aliens exist, is Time Travel possible and more...
Kiran.dks
Technomancer
Re: Do u think UFOs exist
Nope. Not at all! I just don't know how did you relate this theory to my quoted context. You should understand that the particle is in 'motion' in my context. It not just a 2D illusion which you are pointing to. In my context, the particle is in motion. And when I say it is in motion, it is w.r.t real-time. Ok. Anyway just for curiosity, lets play around with this theory to find out if any illusion is possible.
*img67.imageshack.us/img67/6163/ufory8.jpg
Let assume the particle in motion perpendicular to the direction of view. So now you still see the object as stationary from position 'P1' to 'P2'. Now object takes a comfortable 30 deg turn to 'P3' w.r.t vertical and moves again in the direction of view to reach 'P4'. Now it takes another 30 deg turn and reaches 'P5'. Now what did you visualize? A 90 degree illusion! This maneuvers is as simple as possible doesn't require an UFO to do that. Hmmm...BUT, it doesn't end there! Where is the physics main 'time' factor? Since our discussion is in real-time photography, time can't be ignored! Particle in order to reach from position P1 to P2 takes a time 't', but for us that time is masked as time stationary since it's motion is in perpendicular direction! Same is the case when you consider point 'P3' to 'P4' here also the time 't' is a time when the particle is in motion towards view direction, but stand-by time w.r.t our camera context. So in this case maneuver from 'P1 to P5' may tend to look like a amazing 90 degree turn, but there is a delay of time T=t1+t2 during this motion. It's no more a continous motion. So this illusion can't be considered since in that scenario, the object is in full time motion w.r.t time.
blackpearl said:
Nope. Not at all! I just don't know how did you relate this theory to my quoted context. You should understand that the particle is in 'motion' in my context. It not just a 2D illusion which you are pointing to. In my context, the particle is in motion. And when I say it is in motion, it is w.r.t real-time. Ok. Anyway just for curiosity, lets play around with this theory to find out if any illusion is possible.
*img67.imageshack.us/img67/6163/ufory8.jpg
Let assume the particle in motion perpendicular to the direction of view. So now you still see the object as stationary from position 'P1' to 'P2'. Now object takes a comfortable 30 deg turn to 'P3' w.r.t vertical and moves again in the direction of view to reach 'P4'. Now it takes another 30 deg turn and reaches 'P5'. Now what did you visualize? A 90 degree illusion! This maneuvers is as simple as possible doesn't require an UFO to do that. Hmmm...BUT, it doesn't end there! Where is the physics main 'time' factor? Since our discussion is in real-time photography, time can't be ignored! Particle in order to reach from position P1 to P2 takes a time 't', but for us that time is masked as time stationary since it's motion is in perpendicular direction! Same is the case when you consider point 'P3' to 'P4' here also the time 't' is a time when the particle is in motion towards view direction, but stand-by time w.r.t our camera context. So in this case maneuver from 'P1 to P5' may tend to look like a amazing 90 degree turn, but there is a delay of time T=t1+t2 during this motion. It's no more a continous motion. So this illusion can't be considered since in that scenario, the object is in full time motion w.r.t time.
Re: Do u think UFOs exist
@ blackpearl: I think you’re not getting my point about UFOs…
What you are trying to say is flawed in the following ways:
To be honest, I’m most amused that you feel the need to give me a dictionary explanation of a wormhole and even took the trouble to draw a diagram.
Like I said, I’m accepting the widely accepted theories of the world’s smartest men (Einstein included). So when I talk about wormholes and Tachyons, it’s after reading all the theories put forward by these men.
Since you were the first one to mention “wormhole”, I figured that you believed in them, and accepted the theories behind them. I’m very surprised to see you say…
Honestly, if this is just time-pass to you guys, and you’re not really interested enough to actually read up on stuff and understand it, maybe this thread really was better left locked! I’d appreciate it if people took the time to verify their opinions with some facts or at least base assumptions intelligently upon theories from world renowned physicists and scientists! None of us here are Einsteins, but let’s not try and spout lines from the greatest scientific works of our time just for fun!
This is what I mean by people not understanding theories before trying to explain them. For the rest of the readers of this thread…
The diagram above depicts space as a 2D plane, because in order to explain wormholes, we need to involve an additional dimension, which is impossible, because we wouldn’t know how to depict the 5th dimension. 3D is hard enough for us to see. For those of you who are wondering where the 4th dimension went, it’s time. We are fourth dimensional beings because we have volume (3D) and we exist, change and die with time (4th D).
This is why all diagrams of wormholes are stepped down a dimension or two, so that we can add the additional dimension to explain the way it works.
Anyway, back to the diagram: So, if you considered space to be that sheet of paper (stepped down one dimension), the shortest distance between point A and B is a straight line. However, if you add a dimension you get part 2 of the figure, where space can be bent and morphed by, say, a black hole, and the shortest distance between A and B can be reduced, even brought to virtually nothing, so you could get there in no time flat. This involves bending space which means adding another dimension!
This of it this way:
If you discovered a 3D world, where there was only length and breadth and time, no height (every being was infinitesimally short), and you were observing this world, couldn’t you do things that would make the beings of that world think of you as a god? You could pick up one of the flat beings and transport him to another part on the plane that is his universe, and he would be awed. Of course since they themselves are 3D beings, and you are 4D, they would only see your interactions with their world as length and breadth, no height! So if you stuck your finger into this plane, the beings would see a skin coloured line or circle, but not a finger. This is why we, as 4D beings cannot, and will not, picture a 5D universe! So although you can just bend the plane to make 2 points meet, to the beings of this flat world it would be magic! This is why additional dimensions are so hard for most people to understand!
@romit: the second video was already disproved as fake
In order for this thread to make sense and continue, let’s just stick to the rule that if we’re going to be talking about UFOs and physics, people cannot just discount theories by the greatest human minds on a whim, not without a lot of good logical explanations to support such views!
Also, this thread has become much more than “Do you think UFOs exist”, which is in itself a flawed question because of course UFOs exist, any flying object that we cant understand or identify is a UFO! I think this thread should be renamed to “Aliens, UFOs, Time travel, physics and more…”. All in favour say Aye!
Raaabo
PS: Sorry for hijacking this thread! Oh and I stuck it so that I wouldn't have to search for it
If it dies (stops getting intelligent replies) mods are free to unstick it...
@ blackpearl: I think you’re not getting my point about UFOs…
What you are trying to say is flawed in the following ways:
That’s why they’re called UFOs. A UFO is only a UFO until identified. If you stick to your theory of “UFO === Alien space craft”, then the only way you’d ever see one is if it landed and little green men came out. Actually, then it wouldn’t be a UFO either, because we’d KNOW that it was an alien space craft, and it wouldn’t be a UFO! Get it?blackpearl said:
Do you seriously think the governments of countries will say, “Oh yeah, that’s our super secret project!” A UFO is just something that people see but cannot identify. If it remains unidentified, it remains a UFO, if it is identified, it ceases to be a UFO. That’s just simply the way it is.blackpearl said:
Why wouldn’t I like it? I know that people think they see alien ships when they’re actually looking at secret US airplanes. So what? It doesn’t change the fact that until they’re identified they’re still UFOs!blackpearl said:
I’ll get to this in a while, but I think you haven’t understood the theories. This excerpt is from one of the many theories of infinite dimensions, and is all too cryptic. There are many theories, even of infinite parallel universes, and even theories that every second is a parallel universe (or even millisecond). Which, if true, makes time travel a possibility! But most of them are theories and hotly contested by other physicists. I prefer to stick to widely accepted theories (widely accepted = the majority of smartest brains in the world agree upon it), understand them and then comment on them and use logic on them, rather than pulling up theories that have as many contesters as supporters.blackpearl said:
blackpearl said:
To be honest, I’m most amused that you feel the need to give me a dictionary explanation of a wormhole and even took the trouble to draw a diagram.
Like I said, I’m accepting the widely accepted theories of the world’s smartest men (Einstein included). So when I talk about wormholes and Tachyons, it’s after reading all the theories put forward by these men.
Since you were the first one to mention “wormhole”, I figured that you believed in them, and accepted the theories behind them. I’m very surprised to see you say…
blackpearl said:
Honestly, if this is just time-pass to you guys, and you’re not really interested enough to actually read up on stuff and understand it, maybe this thread really was better left locked! I’d appreciate it if people took the time to verify their opinions with some facts or at least base assumptions intelligently upon theories from world renowned physicists and scientists! None of us here are Einsteins, but let’s not try and spout lines from the greatest scientific works of our time just for fun!
I have just one question. Can you draw the same diagram depicting 3D space instead of a line or a plane?blackpearl said:
This is what I mean by people not understanding theories before trying to explain them. For the rest of the readers of this thread…
The diagram above depicts space as a 2D plane, because in order to explain wormholes, we need to involve an additional dimension, which is impossible, because we wouldn’t know how to depict the 5th dimension. 3D is hard enough for us to see. For those of you who are wondering where the 4th dimension went, it’s time. We are fourth dimensional beings because we have volume (3D) and we exist, change and die with time (4th D).
This is why all diagrams of wormholes are stepped down a dimension or two, so that we can add the additional dimension to explain the way it works.
Anyway, back to the diagram: So, if you considered space to be that sheet of paper (stepped down one dimension), the shortest distance between point A and B is a straight line. However, if you add a dimension you get part 2 of the figure, where space can be bent and morphed by, say, a black hole, and the shortest distance between A and B can be reduced, even brought to virtually nothing, so you could get there in no time flat. This involves bending space which means adding another dimension!
This of it this way:
If you discovered a 3D world, where there was only length and breadth and time, no height (every being was infinitesimally short), and you were observing this world, couldn’t you do things that would make the beings of that world think of you as a god? You could pick up one of the flat beings and transport him to another part on the plane that is his universe, and he would be awed. Of course since they themselves are 3D beings, and you are 4D, they would only see your interactions with their world as length and breadth, no height! So if you stuck your finger into this plane, the beings would see a skin coloured line or circle, but not a finger. This is why we, as 4D beings cannot, and will not, picture a 5D universe! So although you can just bend the plane to make 2 points meet, to the beings of this flat world it would be magic! This is why additional dimensions are so hard for most people to understand!
@romit: the second video was already disproved as fake
LOL!!!tech_your_future said:
In order for this thread to make sense and continue, let’s just stick to the rule that if we’re going to be talking about UFOs and physics, people cannot just discount theories by the greatest human minds on a whim, not without a lot of good logical explanations to support such views!
Also, this thread has become much more than “Do you think UFOs exist”, which is in itself a flawed question because of course UFOs exist, any flying object that we cant understand or identify is a UFO! I think this thread should be renamed to “Aliens, UFOs, Time travel, physics and more…”. All in favour say Aye!
Raaabo
PS: Sorry for hijacking this thread! Oh and I stuck it so that I wouldn't have to search for it
If it dies (stops getting intelligent replies) mods are free to unstick it...
Last edited:
blackpearl
The Devil
Re: Do u think UFOs exist
Now I'm geniunly afraid to step into this thread. Everybody seems to know better than the other. Lets accept that we are confused as everybody else. I know its difficult to imagine the bending of a 3D space, so the diagram was given for a 2D space because it helps to get the concept. Now when you think of a 3D space, the concept of wormhole gets bizzare to say the least. Unfortunately, scientists have not gone to explain exactly how. They would probably prove it mathematically, but not physically. Thats why I said its just a theory. You can't disagree and you can't agree either.
And yes, the title is confusing. Ofcourse unidentified objects exist, what do you think people have discovered and classified each and every object in this universe? But I understood what he meant. He should have asked "Do you believe in alien spaceship?". So lets not discuss any furthur about the defination of UFO.
@mediator, kiran: let me think of a way, how I can make it clear.
Now I'm geniunly afraid to step into this thread. Everybody seems to know better than the other. Lets accept that we are confused as everybody else. I know its difficult to imagine the bending of a 3D space, so the diagram was given for a 2D space because it helps to get the concept. Now when you think of a 3D space, the concept of wormhole gets bizzare to say the least. Unfortunately, scientists have not gone to explain exactly how. They would probably prove it mathematically, but not physically. Thats why I said its just a theory. You can't disagree and you can't agree either.
And yes, the title is confusing. Ofcourse unidentified objects exist, what do you think people have discovered and classified each and every object in this universe? But I understood what he meant. He should have asked "Do you believe in alien spaceship?". So lets not discuss any furthur about the defination of UFO.
mediator said:
@mediator, kiran: let me think of a way, how I can make it clear.
Kiran.dks
Technomancer
ALIENS and UFO's
Coincidently, I had written an article entitled "Aliens and UFO's" and published in our company Intranet Portal. I would like to present to all of you.
DO ALIENS REALLY EXIST? IF YES WHY ARE THEY NOT INTERACTING WITH US?
We have seen many Hollywood movies showing these strange creatures which are so called 'Aliens'. Many still believe that they really exist & are occasionally visiting our Planet.
This statement may really puzzle you! But some incidents which occurred on Earth makes you think twice before ignoring it.
1. One night a man was driving back to home passing through outskirts of the city. As he passed through a hilly zone, he noticed a bright spot of light. Puzzled with the intensity of brightness, he stopped his car & looked at it. All of a sudden he fell unconscious. By the time he woke up, he saw nothing was there. Being confused, he reached home. Days passed…& one day he felt pain in his left arm. He consulted a Doctor. X-Ray of his arm showed a foreign substance twice the size of a groundnut. The Doctor recommended removal of the substance by operation. After operation, they analyzed the foreign substance. The Doctors could not tell what the substance was! They were puzzled! They immediately sent it to specialized lab for analysis of the substance. The scientists analyzed it & could neither draw any conclusion. They just could not tell what the substance is made up of! At last they declared that the material was of NON-EARTH origin! It was an implant made by Aliens during that night on his way back to home.
2. A Camera man of a top news agency never believed in Aliens & UFO’s stuff. He thought that people were becoming too crazy by producing such alien videos. But an incident that happened to him changed his thinking towards this strange thing.
One fine evening he was filming home video of his family people enjoying at a beach. They noticed a big disc shaped object approaching them. At first they ignored it as a Glider. Camera man pointed his handy cam towards this approaching object. He could not believe his eyes! He saw an UFO approaching them! All of them were puzzled! Cameraman kept his camera rolling. But as soon as the UFO approached over head, the camera automatically failed! The UFO passed over their head in a flash! As soon as the UFO went off, the camera started working! He could not believe what went wrong at that moment! Camera was a brand new one. Battery was full. There was no reason for it to fail. But it did! All the data in the camera got erased! Scientists say that the camera came under strong Magnetic field due to which it failed that moment.
There is absolutely no reason for the cameraman to tell another telltale story! He is already a well recognized person & has good reputation in his news agency.
There are hundreds of Home videos & photographs published by common man & also some research labs around the world. All these videos featured a common thing, an Alien or an UFO. All these can be neglected as fake. But the growing numbers doesn’t allow us to dismiss all of them. Some are too good to be genuine and some just can’t be dismissed as fake. Some people might have done it to show their extra-ordinary computer graphics skills & some for getting name & fame, but not all of them. People who produced these videos included journalists, Scientists & some genuine people who don’t play with this kind of issues.
So why are Aliens not interacting with us?
I would like to throw some light on this.
Do they think our technology is not worth it?
Or is it because they can't understand our technology, our interests?
Are they afraid of us?
1. Man is trying very hard to interact with them. Humans are sending loads of varying signal waves into the space and waiting for reply signal from them. But till now there is no response from anywhere.
That doesn't discourage us from doing so. May be the signals transmitted by humans has not yet reached them. Our atmosphere and hence space is filled with all kinds of satellite signals. Satellite programs beamed by T.V stations, Radio stations, etc from the day it started are still progressing deep into the space. Did aliens catch hold of them? Or whether it has not yet reached them? Signals transmitted by T.V stations in earlier 50's are still reaching our neighbouring galaxies. It's the matter of time when they will receive it.
Varying strong ripples of encoded signals (like the one shown in blockbuster 'Koi mil gaya') are also being beamed into space. Why aren't they replying to it? May be they are unable to decode our signals to their understandable form.
2. As as Raabo said, they might find our technology not worth to interact with us. They might be studying us, the way we live, our physical structure..etc. This may be the reason for the rising abduction cases on humans.
3. Or is it because they are afraid of us! They might be watching us, willing to interact with us, but possible that they are afraid of consequences.
So humans are preparing for it. Suppose one fine day (or Bad day!) they interact with us. Then how are we going to understand what they are telling? They might be friendly with us expressing something, but just can't understand it! So humans are also not willing to be underprepared for it. Scientists are trying to understand various signal forms by researching on the animals on earth. It is said that Dolphins language of Ultrasonic sound waves is also a key factor in understanding aliens.
Many believe that Humans are already interacting with Aliens secretly! Most target US military. Especially the Area Sector 51, America's top secret military base on earth is in limelight of UFO spotting. A researcher kept a Camera running 24x7 days. Then he observed the video. He was amazed to see a extremely bright object landing some time in night. Then it vanished after a stay of an hour. None could explain what it was! The brightness was extremely intense, hence unlikely to be human made. He declared it as an UFO.
So the search is ON. Research centres are observing the space closely for any possible signal from extraterrastrials. It's the matter of time when we will get a signal from them. Suppose one day we get a signal from faraway world! HOW SHALL WE REACT? WILL IT BE A EMERGENCY SITUATION, POSING THREAT TO MANKIND? SHALL WE PREPARE FOR THE WAR? OR SHALL WE TAKE IT IN A POSITIVE WAY THINKING IT AS A FRIENDLY SIGNAL!
These questions will remain unanswered till the day ACTUALLY ARRIVES!
Coincidently, I had written an article entitled "Aliens and UFO's" and published in our company Intranet Portal. I would like to present to all of you.
DO ALIENS REALLY EXIST? IF YES WHY ARE THEY NOT INTERACTING WITH US?
We have seen many Hollywood movies showing these strange creatures which are so called 'Aliens'. Many still believe that they really exist & are occasionally visiting our Planet.
This statement may really puzzle you! But some incidents which occurred on Earth makes you think twice before ignoring it.
1. One night a man was driving back to home passing through outskirts of the city. As he passed through a hilly zone, he noticed a bright spot of light. Puzzled with the intensity of brightness, he stopped his car & looked at it. All of a sudden he fell unconscious. By the time he woke up, he saw nothing was there. Being confused, he reached home. Days passed…& one day he felt pain in his left arm. He consulted a Doctor. X-Ray of his arm showed a foreign substance twice the size of a groundnut. The Doctor recommended removal of the substance by operation. After operation, they analyzed the foreign substance. The Doctors could not tell what the substance was! They were puzzled! They immediately sent it to specialized lab for analysis of the substance. The scientists analyzed it & could neither draw any conclusion. They just could not tell what the substance is made up of! At last they declared that the material was of NON-EARTH origin! It was an implant made by Aliens during that night on his way back to home.
2. A Camera man of a top news agency never believed in Aliens & UFO’s stuff. He thought that people were becoming too crazy by producing such alien videos. But an incident that happened to him changed his thinking towards this strange thing.
One fine evening he was filming home video of his family people enjoying at a beach. They noticed a big disc shaped object approaching them. At first they ignored it as a Glider. Camera man pointed his handy cam towards this approaching object. He could not believe his eyes! He saw an UFO approaching them! All of them were puzzled! Cameraman kept his camera rolling. But as soon as the UFO approached over head, the camera automatically failed! The UFO passed over their head in a flash! As soon as the UFO went off, the camera started working! He could not believe what went wrong at that moment! Camera was a brand new one. Battery was full. There was no reason for it to fail. But it did! All the data in the camera got erased! Scientists say that the camera came under strong Magnetic field due to which it failed that moment.
There is absolutely no reason for the cameraman to tell another telltale story! He is already a well recognized person & has good reputation in his news agency.
There are hundreds of Home videos & photographs published by common man & also some research labs around the world. All these videos featured a common thing, an Alien or an UFO. All these can be neglected as fake. But the growing numbers doesn’t allow us to dismiss all of them. Some are too good to be genuine and some just can’t be dismissed as fake. Some people might have done it to show their extra-ordinary computer graphics skills & some for getting name & fame, but not all of them. People who produced these videos included journalists, Scientists & some genuine people who don’t play with this kind of issues.
So why are Aliens not interacting with us?
I would like to throw some light on this.
Do they think our technology is not worth it?
Or is it because they can't understand our technology, our interests?
Are they afraid of us?
1. Man is trying very hard to interact with them. Humans are sending loads of varying signal waves into the space and waiting for reply signal from them. But till now there is no response from anywhere.
That doesn't discourage us from doing so. May be the signals transmitted by humans has not yet reached them. Our atmosphere and hence space is filled with all kinds of satellite signals. Satellite programs beamed by T.V stations, Radio stations, etc from the day it started are still progressing deep into the space. Did aliens catch hold of them? Or whether it has not yet reached them? Signals transmitted by T.V stations in earlier 50's are still reaching our neighbouring galaxies. It's the matter of time when they will receive it.
Varying strong ripples of encoded signals (like the one shown in blockbuster 'Koi mil gaya') are also being beamed into space. Why aren't they replying to it? May be they are unable to decode our signals to their understandable form.
2. As as Raabo said, they might find our technology not worth to interact with us. They might be studying us, the way we live, our physical structure..etc. This may be the reason for the rising abduction cases on humans.
3. Or is it because they are afraid of us! They might be watching us, willing to interact with us, but possible that they are afraid of consequences.
So humans are preparing for it. Suppose one fine day (or Bad day!) they interact with us. Then how are we going to understand what they are telling? They might be friendly with us expressing something, but just can't understand it! So humans are also not willing to be underprepared for it. Scientists are trying to understand various signal forms by researching on the animals on earth. It is said that Dolphins language of Ultrasonic sound waves is also a key factor in understanding aliens.
Many believe that Humans are already interacting with Aliens secretly! Most target US military. Especially the Area Sector 51, America's top secret military base on earth is in limelight of UFO spotting. A researcher kept a Camera running 24x7 days. Then he observed the video. He was amazed to see a extremely bright object landing some time in night. Then it vanished after a stay of an hour. None could explain what it was! The brightness was extremely intense, hence unlikely to be human made. He declared it as an UFO.
So the search is ON. Research centres are observing the space closely for any possible signal from extraterrastrials. It's the matter of time when we will get a signal from them. Suppose one day we get a signal from faraway world! HOW SHALL WE REACT? WILL IT BE A EMERGENCY SITUATION, POSING THREAT TO MANKIND? SHALL WE PREPARE FOR THE WAR? OR SHALL WE TAKE IT IN A POSITIVE WAY THINKING IT AS A FRIENDLY SIGNAL!
These questions will remain unanswered till the day ACTUALLY ARRIVES!
blackpearl
The Devil
Re: Do u think UFOs exist
Stories of UFOs are interesting. Some of them are strange, some of them seems convincing. I don't know what to believe.
Anyway, mediator asked how the turning angle may look a lot greater than they actually is. I have taken the trouble to create an animation of it
.
Before you view it let me clarify something. If you disagree with me don't flame me because:
1. This is not my theory. It was shown in Discovery how its difficult to exactly determine the path of motion. I'm just reproducing it.
2. I'm a bad animator, so the video might not look convincing.
3. Remember, you are seeing a 3D video from a close range. Things are a lot different when you see an object no bigger than a star, 20 miles above against a pitch black sky.
*rapidshare.com/files/5041743/Movie1.rar.html (560KB)
__________
Well, I'm not making fun of you but if the aliens watch "Kyunki saas bhi kabhi bahu thi" on Star plus, they will flee.
Stories of UFOs are interesting. Some of them are strange, some of them seems convincing. I don't know what to believe.
Anyway, mediator asked how the turning angle may look a lot greater than they actually is. I have taken the trouble to create an animation of it
.Before you view it let me clarify something. If you disagree with me don't flame me because:
1. This is not my theory. It was shown in Discovery how its difficult to exactly determine the path of motion. I'm just reproducing it.
2. I'm a bad animator, so the video might not look convincing.
3. Remember, you are seeing a 3D video from a close range. Things are a lot different when you see an object no bigger than a star, 20 miles above against a pitch black sky.
*rapidshare.com/files/5041743/Movie1.rar.html (560KB)
__________
kiran.rkk said:
Well, I'm not making fun of you but if the aliens watch "Kyunki saas bhi kabhi bahu thi" on Star plus, they will flee.
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Kiran.dks
Technomancer
Re: Do u think UFOs exist
Lol! Forget about "Kyunki saas bhi kabhi bahu thi" , I wonder how do they feel if they see 
movies!
blackpearl said:Well, I'm not making fun of you but if the aliens watch "Kyunki saas bhi kabhi bahu thi" on Star plus, they will flee.
Lol!
Forget about "Kyunki saas bhi kabhi bahu thi" , I wonder how do they feel if they see movies!
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mediator
Technomancer
Re: Do u think UFOs exist
@blackpearl : That is a nice video. But it didn't answer my question! I specifically asked for 90 deg.
And now I'm interested more on this!
I hope u know the difference between 5 deg and 300 deg angle.
Also, the video u showed wasn't very convincing. Part 1 of it, had an angle about 120-140 deg and part 2 also had aprox. the same angle. Yes aproximately the same angle u can verify it! Only the arms of the angle were shortened.
So please enlighten me with some convincing video!
@blackpearl : That is a nice video. But it didn't answer my question! I specifically asked for 90 deg.
mediator said:
And now I'm interested more on this!
Again let me remind u we are dealing with distant objects!blackpearl said:
I hope u know the difference between 5 deg and 300 deg angle.
Also, the video u showed wasn't very convincing. Part 1 of it, had an angle about 120-140 deg and part 2 also had aprox. the same angle. Yes aproximately the same angle u can verify it! Only the arms of the angle were shortened.
So please enlighten me with some convincing video!
blackpearl
The Devil
Re: Do u think UFOs exist
@mediator: forget about specifics - 90 degree, 300 degree .... nobody took a compass to measure
Just look at the video one more time. The first one made a small turn, deviating from its path only slightly. The second one took a U-turn, although both were the same just viewed from different directions.
__________
The first one didn't have an angle of 140 degree. The angle is measured between the original direction and the new direction, how much the arm has turned.
@mediator: forget about specifics - 90 degree, 300 degree .... nobody took a compass to measure
Just look at the video one more time. The first one made a small turn, deviating from its path only slightly. The second one took a U-turn, although both were the same just viewed from different directions.
__________
mediator said:
The first one didn't have an angle of 140 degree. The angle is measured between the original direction and the new direction, how much the arm has turned.
Code:
new direction
/
/
/
/ ) angle of turn
Original direction ---------------------/------------------
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Kiran.dks
Technomancer
Re: Do u think UFOs exist
@blackpearl:
Just viewed the video. I don't see a 90 degree turn in the video. In the second part of the video, you might have noticed the particle moving in a direction perpendicular to the direction of view. At that instance, the object looks stationary. This is what I said. The object should be in full motion while viewing. This is not possible under any circumstances.
@blackpearl:
Just viewed the video. I don't see a 90 degree turn in the video. In the second part of the video, you might have noticed the particle moving in a direction perpendicular to the direction of view. At that instance, the object looks stationary. This is what I said. The object should be in full motion while viewing. This is not possible under any circumstances.
mediator
Technomancer
Re: Do u think UFOs exist
I didn't understand by what u wantd to say by "how much arm has turned", but scientifically an angle of a moving object is measured by noting its initial position, final postition and maximum deviation between them. So if u adhere to scientific rules, then I request u to take a scale,compass and a D(angle calculator) and again calculate the angle for the 2 parts of the video. Its aprox. the same!! Try it and calculate it.
Neways that wasn't my point. U don't need to do extra work again. I just wanted to show that human mind can't be fooled that easily. Thats why I specifically asked for distant objects, 90 deg and later 5 deg and 300 deg, coz
1. 90 degrees has range 0<90<180 when viewed from different directions
2. 5 degrees cannot be viewed as 300 deg or greater than 180 deg when viewed from below the UFO. IF AO lies on x axis, and OB 5 deg above AO, then 300 deg means reversal of the direction of OB i.e below AO which is possible if we view the UFO from completely different direction i.e if we were viewing from below then we view it from above it, or if we were viewing from left of it then we view from right of it. But distant means viewing it from faraway and in a particular direction.
3. Also @kiran's point is valid here about time!
P.S - I used to be an engineering drawing student and tried to visualise it from all sort of directions so as to verify ur post about "human mind can be fooled very easily"! But I was unsuccessful to verify ur post. U may try more if u think I'm wrong!
Why forget? U told human mind can be fooled easily and thats why I wanted to discuss it with u.blackpearl said:
I didn't understand by what u wantd to say by "how much arm has turned", but scientifically an angle of a moving object is measured by noting its initial position, final postition and maximum deviation between them. So if u adhere to scientific rules, then I request u to take a scale,compass and a D(angle calculator) and again calculate the angle for the 2 parts of the video. Its aprox. the same!! Try it and calculate it.
Neways that wasn't my point. U don't need to do extra work again. I just wanted to show that human mind can't be fooled that easily. Thats why I specifically asked for distant objects, 90 deg and later 5 deg and 300 deg, coz
1. 90 degrees has range 0<90<180 when viewed from different directions
2. 5 degrees cannot be viewed as 300 deg or greater than 180 deg when viewed from below the UFO. IF AO lies on x axis, and OB 5 deg above AO, then 300 deg means reversal of the direction of OB i.e below AO which is possible if we view the UFO from completely different direction i.e if we were viewing from below then we view it from above it, or if we were viewing from left of it then we view from right of it. But distant means viewing it from faraway and in a particular direction.
3. Also @kiran's point is valid here about time!
P.S - I used to be an engineering drawing student and tried to visualise it from all sort of directions so as to verify ur post about "human mind can be fooled very easily"! But I was unsuccessful to verify ur post. U may try more if u think I'm wrong!
blackpearl
The Devil
Re: Do u think UFOs exist
Guys!! try to imagine. I will make one last try.
Suppose a body is moving in a circle. If you view it from the top, i.e. along the axis of the circle you will see it going round and round. Now if you view it along the plane of the circle, what will you see? You will see the body moving forward and backward continuously, i.e. oscillating. I hope its clear till now.
So in reality the body is slowly turning as it moves around in a circle, but from a diffferent view it looks as if the body is constantly changing direction - left to right and then right to left. I think this should be clear enough.
__________
Now, that you mention, I was an engineering student too and familiar with Engineering Drawings. If you remember there is somethinmg called perspective. A railway track seems to radiate from a point if you stand on it and look far along the tracks, but you know that its parallel. An illusion.
Similarly, have you seen pictures of meteor showers. It looks like they are spreading every where like the spokes of a wheel. But in reality they are moving towards you almost parallely in a straight line. Search for such pictures on the net.
Guys!! try to imagine. I will make one last try.
Suppose a body is moving in a circle. If you view it from the top, i.e. along the axis of the circle you will see it going round and round. Now if you view it along the plane of the circle, what will you see? You will see the body moving forward and backward continuously, i.e. oscillating. I hope its clear till now.
So in reality the body is slowly turning as it moves around in a circle, but from a diffferent view it looks as if the body is constantly changing direction - left to right and then right to left. I think this should be clear enough.
__________
mediator said:P.S - I used to be an engineering drawing student and tried to visualise it from all sort of directions so as to verify ur post about "human mind can be fooled very easily"! But I was unsuccessful to verify ur post. U may try more if u think I'm wrong!
Now, that you mention, I was an engineering student too and familiar with Engineering Drawings. If you remember there is somethinmg called perspective. A railway track seems to radiate from a point if you stand on it and look far along the tracks, but you know that its parallel. An illusion.
Similarly, have you seen pictures of meteor showers. It looks like they are spreading every where like the spokes of a wheel. But in reality they are moving towards you almost parallely in a straight line. Search for such pictures on the net.
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mediator
Technomancer
Re: Do u think UFOs exist
Also I missed a point in previous post. Suppose ur viewing the UFO from front i.e X-Y plane and it makes say 45 deg deviation w.r.t X axis. SO when Viewing from front u'll see that size and speed of UFO are constant. Now move urself towards Y-Z plane where X=0. What do u see? That the UFO is moving in a straight line. RIght? But it is obvious as when the moving particle is near us, its size seem to be much larger as compared to when it is at some distant position. Also when an object recedes from us, not only its size seem to diminish but also its speed!
So noting all such factors, I don't think human mind can be fooled that easily. It can detect with some observation whether the object is hovering in a circle, moving towards us or receding from us and during such sightings the human mind's observation goes at its peak due to curiosity.
Neways, I'm extremely glad that ur an ED student tooooooo and that makes discussion much simpler and more interesting! ED rox. WHat say?
Thats the simplest 2d visualization and planar representation! But one thing, why do u want to see it from top? We are talking about UFOs, means viewing from faraway and in one particular direction.blackpearl said:
Also I missed a point in previous post. Suppose ur viewing the UFO from front i.e X-Y plane and it makes say 45 deg deviation w.r.t X axis. SO when Viewing from front u'll see that size and speed of UFO are constant. Now move urself towards Y-Z plane where X=0. What do u see? That the UFO is moving in a straight line. RIght? But it is obvious as when the moving particle is near us, its size seem to be much larger as compared to when it is at some distant position. Also when an object recedes from us, not only its size seem to diminish but also its speed!
So noting all such factors, I don't think human mind can be fooled that easily. It can detect with some observation whether the object is hovering in a circle, moving towards us or receding from us and during such sightings the human mind's observation goes at its peak due to curiosity.
Exactly!! I didn't see this point of urs while making my above point. But both are same! So human mind knows how to distinguish a moving object in 3D space! Perspective! Its illusion, but human mind knows its parallel, its not getting fooled anywhere!blackpearl said:
Neways, I'm extremely glad that ur an ED student tooooooo and that makes discussion much simpler and more interesting! ED rox. WHat say?
Re: Do u think UFOs exist
Again a pointless argument!
blackpearl, do you seriously think that the scientists who viewed the videos in question did not know about reference frames and angle of viewers? If guys at NASA cannot explain some of the videos of UFOs making sharp turns at high speeds, what makes you so sure that you've hit the nail on the head and thought of something they didn't think of?
Comets travel at incredible speeds, yet you can see them for hours. this is because from a distance, speeds appear much, much slower. The fact that a change in direction is even noted, and that they whiz by at incredible heights = immense speed and great maneuverability. If you saw a plane in the sky, and it did a hard banking turn, you would see it turn slowly.
Also, lets not forget, in the videos (let’s leave the argument over whether they are real or hoaxes for now), the objects are traveling at very comparable speeds before and after the turn, thus hinting at the fact that the reference plane is not at an acute enough angle to the object to really matter or to skew the angle by much.
In your cyclic motion explanation, if viewed along the plane, the object will always appear to be accelerating and decelerating, fastest at the center point on the line and slowest at the ends, but the videos do not show that much of positive or negative acceleration.
Also, there is one way to explain a sharp turn at comparable speeds while viewed from an acute angle: this is only possible if the moving object suddenly, instantaneously accelerates and changes direction at the instant of acceleration. As I said, the fact that you can see the motion (speed) so clearly at such a distance means great speed, and for it to accelerate to thrice that speed in an instant (in order to prove your theory correct), already requires a lot more technology than humans are capable of…
Of course, there have been various other explanations for these objects: one NASA video which showed an object making one such sharp turn was explained as dust on the camera lens. It was explained as others as a UFO making a very sharp turn and speeding away after a missile was fired at it! What’s true and wha isn’t is not of concern right now though, but what is important is that again, your theories, though correct for short distances and MAYA experiments, do not hold true at the planetary scale…
Raaabo
Again a pointless argument!
blackpearl, do you seriously think that the scientists who viewed the videos in question did not know about reference frames and angle of viewers? If guys at NASA cannot explain some of the videos of UFOs making sharp turns at high speeds, what makes you so sure that you've hit the nail on the head and thought of something they didn't think of?
Comets travel at incredible speeds, yet you can see them for hours. this is because from a distance, speeds appear much, much slower. The fact that a change in direction is even noted, and that they whiz by at incredible heights = immense speed and great maneuverability. If you saw a plane in the sky, and it did a hard banking turn, you would see it turn slowly.
Also, lets not forget, in the videos (let’s leave the argument over whether they are real or hoaxes for now), the objects are traveling at very comparable speeds before and after the turn, thus hinting at the fact that the reference plane is not at an acute enough angle to the object to really matter or to skew the angle by much.
In your cyclic motion explanation, if viewed along the plane, the object will always appear to be accelerating and decelerating, fastest at the center point on the line and slowest at the ends, but the videos do not show that much of positive or negative acceleration.
Also, there is one way to explain a sharp turn at comparable speeds while viewed from an acute angle: this is only possible if the moving object suddenly, instantaneously accelerates and changes direction at the instant of acceleration. As I said, the fact that you can see the motion (speed) so clearly at such a distance means great speed, and for it to accelerate to thrice that speed in an instant (in order to prove your theory correct), already requires a lot more technology than humans are capable of…
Of course, there have been various other explanations for these objects: one NASA video which showed an object making one such sharp turn was explained as dust on the camera lens. It was explained as others as a UFO making a very sharp turn and speeding away after a missile was fired at it! What’s true and wha isn’t is not of concern right now though, but what is important is that again, your theories, though correct for short distances and MAYA experiments, do not hold true at the planetary scale…
Raaabo
Kiran.dks
Technomancer
Re: Do u think UFOs exist
^^^
Rightly said. But not a pointless arguement though. Infact this was in my mind and was about to tell it to Blackpearl. I didn't want to take a third party reference(NASA) saying that if NASA can't explain illusion, how could he explain. That made me illustrate and clear his doubt regarding this motion. Mediator too justified it good enough that it is not a illusion. Blackpearl's arguement is valid if the object is retarding and accelarating during it's motion as u said. But in this case the object is making such maneveurs at constant speed. Moreover, his concept can't be considered for distant objects.
I will google for availablity of that video if NASA has made it publicly available.
^^^
Rightly said. But not a pointless arguement though. Infact this was in my mind and was about to tell it to Blackpearl. I didn't want to take a third party reference(NASA) saying that if NASA can't explain illusion, how could he explain. That made me illustrate and clear his doubt regarding this motion. Mediator too justified it good enough that it is not a illusion. Blackpearl's arguement is valid if the object is retarding and accelarating during it's motion as u said. But in this case the object is making such maneveurs at constant speed. Moreover, his concept can't be considered for distant objects.
I will google for availablity of that video if NASA has made it publicly available.
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blackpearl
The Devil
Re: Do u think UFOs exist
I have already told that its not my explanation, its the explanation shown in Discovery how that object might not be making a sharp turn at all. NASA did not say it was the only explanation.
This is the same case of Shooting the messenger.
Raaabo said:
I have already told that its not my explanation, its the explanation shown in Discovery how that object might not be making a sharp turn at all. NASA did not say it was the only explanation.
This is the same case of Shooting the messenger.
Re: Do u think UFOs exist
OK! I know this is going to look like I'm targeting you (which I'm not!), but did Discovery ask you to come and post here? Did NASA?
The term "don't shoot the messenger" is used when someone shows anger to the bearer of bad news.
This scenario is different because you have heard/read something and are putting it forward as an explanation that you agree with (thus making it your view), in a debate on a subject that really has no right answers. You're not a messenger, so there's no case of shooting the messenger...
Every arguement about the objects on those tapes has counter arguements. Every plausible explanation has been probed, and every attempt to prove that these aren't UFOs has a counter argument... So let's drop this topic about the videos in question. I much prefer the "Is time travel possible" argument anyway
Raaabo
blackpearl said:I have already told that its not my explanation, its the explanation shown in Discovery how that object might not be making a sharp turn at all. NASA did not say it was the only explanation.
This is the same case of Shooting the messenger.
OK! I know this is going to look like I'm targeting you (which I'm not!), but did Discovery ask you to come and post here? Did NASA?
The term "don't shoot the messenger" is used when someone shows anger to the bearer of bad news.
This scenario is different because you have heard/read something and are putting it forward as an explanation that you agree with (thus making it your view), in a debate on a subject that really has no right answers. You're not a messenger, so there's no case of shooting the messenger...
Every arguement about the objects on those tapes has counter arguements. Every plausible explanation has been probed, and every attempt to prove that these aren't UFOs has a counter argument... So let's drop this topic about the videos in question. I much prefer the "Is time travel possible" argument anyway
Raaabo
