Camera talk...

Discussion in 'Cameras and camcorders' started by nac, Aug 14, 2012.

  1. OP
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    nac

    nac Well-Known Member

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    I have read few posts and watched few videos about how to use HSS in Godox/5D. So that I can try when I go to his place.

    So I should use flash delay when using RF?

    I don't remember exactly whether it was over exposed or underexposed when shooting in Av. We tried many settings, and I don't remember which one gave underexposed and which over exposed. My guess is underexposed, pretty dark or completely black. I was metering off of some decoration they setup for the ceremony. I think it's some kinda light coloured cloth and flower arrangements.

    Yeah, two 400w at full power bouncing off of the ceiling would be plenty of light and would be good too.

    Turning one light off wouldn't be good in this setup. The two weddings I attended last year and this one, they pick smaller aperture for flash light setup. I don't know why, but that's what they do. I still have those photos, I will check if there is any photo I shot where aperture is opened wider than f/10.
     
  2. raja manuel

    raja manuel Active Member

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    What is flash delay?

    I haven’t yet come across a proper explanation about what causes shutter lag when using radio triggers. I have heard some claims of interference caused by water bodies and metal structures (including the structure on which the light is mounted) but nothing I would consider authoritative. Also, anecdotes aren’t always reliable.

    The guy you were working for doesn’t seem to be much of a photographer. It seems extremely irresponsible and unprofessional to me to show up for a shoot without knowing how to get correct exposure. That’s the kindergarten syllabus of photography!

    The only reason I can think of is that they expect to do a lot of group photos and need deeper depth-of-field. Unless the groups are stacked very deep, though, it seems like overkill. f/8 is usually enough for group shots as there is likely to be quite a distance between you and the group and you will be using a shorter focal length. I use f/11 only when I photograph food because I am relatively closer to the food and using a longer focal length, both of which cause shallow depth-of-field. Admittedly this is using APS-C and full frame should have shallower depth-of-field, but I wonder if there is that much difference between the two.
     
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  3. izzikio_rage

    izzikio_rage Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure you'd end up using f/8 at max since thats the sweet spot of the 5D kit lens (one you were using)

    I've shot a lot using ceiling bounce and it usually gets better results than umbrellas if you are moving around. What you are saying sounds like a typical marriage photography setup for shooting large groups on a stage near the bride and groom. Put out crazy amounts of light, lower the f stop, and then zoom in and out depending on group size.

    Again very irresponsible for the guy setting this up, he has no right to be angry at you. Ask him the whys of all this and tell us also, sounds quite new
     
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  4. OP
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    nac

    nac Well-Known Member

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    Flash delay is flash triggers after our set time delay or at least that's what I understood when I read the manual of flashes/triggers after the last event.
    Something like this

    I wouldn't be so hard on him. It was a medical emergency, he has to rush to see his kid. If something is to blame, that should be me.
     
  5. raja manuel

    raja manuel Active Member

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    Interesting. I've never heard of this before, unless it is the feature known as multi-exposure or strobe effect in other flashes. In any case, I don't think this would have helped you. The flash was delayed, that's why you were getting the black band in your photos - the shutter had started closing by the time the flash fired. Maybe you needed to remove the delay, if it had been enabled.

    I would be a lot harder on him. I'm not objecting to him having to leave (though he should have told you that you would be doing the entire shoot by yourself, rather than just assisting). I'm objecting to him taking on assignments without knowing how to set exposure. This is the photography equivalent of a violin soloist showing up for a concert, walking out on to the stage and then trying to figure out how to play the violin. It is unprofessional and irresponsible. Admittedly the world is full of unprofessional professionals, but we don't have to encourage mediocrity by condoning it.
     
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    nac

    nac Well-Known Member

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    Have been reading/watching videos about flashes and I came across HSS/Auto FP. Learned that Nikon 3000 and 5000 series cameras don't support high sync speed aka auto FP. I have been digging online for hours, and I didn't come across a reliable source that says it's possible to do HSS with those cameras. I don't understand how that's not possible. I can understand if it's not possible with TTL/iTTL, but not even with manual flashes which has HSS feature.

    So what would the camera do when we set shutter faster than it's native flash sync speed (assuming 1/200th sec) in shutter priority or in manual mode? Camera will override our shutter speed settings and shoot only @ 1/200 sec or just don't release shutter at all?

    Any 3000/5000 series users ever tried HSS with your camera?
     
  7. raja manuel

    raja manuel Active Member

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    HSS is a mode where the flash fires in rapid bursts creating a continuous light which can now be used with any shutter speed like any other continuous light, except that it has to sync with the shutter opening and closing. For this to work, the flash, trigger, and camera body have to support HSS. If the body doesn't support it, even putting a HSS flash on the camera will not give you HSS.

    Nikon D3xxxx and D5xxxx series do not support this. Only the D7xxxx onwards support HSS (AFP). Canon supports it from much lower in the range (my 600D has it). Nikon's lower range bodies are quite flash restricted.

    How the camera handles flash at shutter speeds quicker than sync speed depends on the model in question. My 600D will not allow me to go beyond the sync speed if flash mode is engaged. If am in manual mode or Tv with a higher-than-sync shutter speed, the shutter speed will reset to sync speed on half press of shutter button. Other models, usually higher end models, will allow the photo to be taken with the higher shutter speed but a black band will appear in the photo.
     
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    nac

    nac Well-Known Member

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    This is where I am not getting the logic. If the shutter/curtain functions the same way for both 3000 and 7000 series, how AFP is possible on one and not on other. My guess is that it's not hardware limitation, but a software one. If only there is a hack for that.
    Assuming HSS is not enabled or shooting with built in flash in this case, right?
    x---------------------x​
    Checked Godox site, and Xpro is the only trigger looks like the one I used in the last event. It's fairly new to the market, so I would assume (and going by my memory) the studio flash lights I used are SK400 II. Trigger supports HSS, but not the flash light and it's obvious 5D M4 supports HSS. So it's clear that the gear didn't support HSS, not like I assumed it would.

    What we should've done assuming that we want to use both the flashes?
     
  9. raja manuel

    raja manuel Active Member

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    Yeah, it is quite possible that the limitation is only software. I doubt if you will ever see a hack, even if it is possible. I am sure Nikon's lawyers will have something to say about that.

    Yes, if HSS is not enabled. I don't think popup flashes support HSS. Using HSS is just like using continuous light, with all the drawbacks - higher shutter speed reduces exposure. The popup flash may not have the power to make HSS meaningful. Of course, higher spec models usually don't have a popup flash rendering the question moot.

    Both the flashes? Weren't they the same model?
    In any case, the solution here is: don't show up at the venue and then try to figure out the ABCs of photography. Equipment will always have limitations, and you're supposed to know about them and be prepared.
    Equally, when selecting equipment you should know what your objectives are and identify the correct gear. If you want HSS, you should ensure that you get HSS. Caveat emptor, etc.
    It again boils down to how professional the professional is.
     
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    nac

    nac Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that I read. When using built-in flash, it's camera's native max sync speed.
    Yeah, both are same. It's two numbers of SK400 II.
    Agreed. But... we're already there. :(
     
  11. sujoyp

    sujoyp Well-Known Member

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    Lots of discussion of HSS. Can someone please explain the creative use of HSS. Once upon a time I was planning to get one for Smoke or droplet photography...Whats the use of it for people photography? I think they are slow enough to shoot in 1/200 sec .
     
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    nac

    nac Well-Known Member

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    Not just for 1/200 sec, you can go as fast as 1/8000 sec and still use flash. Freezing actions, when you want to use flash in bright day light and keep your aperture wide open etc...
     
  13. sujoyp

    sujoyp Well-Known Member

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    If there is soo much light to go above 1/1000 with f10 then probably i dont need a flash...yes maybe to remove some shadows its useful..will such fast flash have enough power?

    Sent from my LG-G6 using Tapatalk
     
  14. OP
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    nac

    nac Well-Known Member

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    Even speedlite has this function. I don't know about every model, when I checked Godox, 6 out 8 speedlite has this function (not sure about the other two). If you want even more power, you can either use multiple speedlite or go for studio lights.
     
  15. izzikio_rage

    izzikio_rage Well-Known Member

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    Hss is great if you want to shoot with flash in daylight with an open aperture. People fake sunrise type shots using this on the model and blurring the background which has ambient light. It's even useful with bright ambient lights like a very well lit hall where you want to blur background.

    Pros use flashes for more than just adding light to a photo where light is low. Its used for much more creative functions

    1. Get a flash to shine through the window on a model, cover the flash with orange gel and you have a sunrise/sunset shot

    2. Use HSS flash on a model in a daylight lit room, increase shutter speed to reduce ambient light and make it seem like evening.

    3. Use a very very low flash with HSS to just give a catch light in daylight shots with blurred background

    4. Sports/kids shots with moving people
     
  16. OP
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    nac

    nac Well-Known Member

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    Up until now, I thought focal length is distance between image sensor and lens. Like in this image...

    [​IMG]

    While I read Nikon DSLR manual, it says
    Focal plane is where the image sensor is, right? Like in this image
    [​IMG]
    If flange range is 46.5mm, how an 18mm lens can have distance of just 18mm between lens and image sensor? I am totally confused after reading that line in the manual. So what is focal length? Any body have any clear explanation or any links for an explanation?
     
  17. raja manuel

    raja manuel Active Member

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    Correct.

    The problem with saying ‘distance from point A to B’ is that it is useless without defining what points A and B are. In this case we know that one point is the image sensor, which is indicated by the focal plane marking on the shoulder of the camera.

    For the other point, just saying 'lens' is too vague unless you are speaking of a largely theoretical thin lens. The correct, if very technical, way to explain focal length is to understand it as the distance from the rear principal point of the lens to the focal point (sensor). The principal point is sometimes (I believe incorrectly) referred to as the optical centre of the lens. The principal points of the lens do not have to be at the physical centre of the lens, and may not even lie within the lens. Note that the focal length is measured when the light rays entering the lens are parallel (subject at infinity). The focal length will be different when the subject is nearer than infinity – that’s why we need to focus the lens, by changing the principal points, based on the distance to subject.

    We now have clever methods to mimic the perspective of a focal length without the lens actually having that focal length. For a long focal length lens, the telephoto lens group does this by using a short focal length lens and inserting biconcave lens elements between the main lens element and the image to narrow the angle of view, creating an effective long focal length lens that is shorter than its effective focal length. Strictly speaking, only lenses with the telephoto lens elements should be referred to as telephoto lenses, though in practise all long focal lenses are nowadays referred to as telephoto lenses.

    When it comes to short focal lenses, like the 18mm lenses, the problem is inverse and so is the solution. The reflex mirror (in an SLR) takes up a lot of room and it becomes physically impossible for a short focal length lens to be mounted close enough to focus on the sensor. In such cases the retrofocal design is used which is an inverse/reverse telephoto design - the biconcave lens element is introduced between the main lens element and the subject to create a lens with physical length longer than its focal length, and critically, with back focal length long enough to clear the mirror thereby allowing an 18mm lens to be successfully mounted on a camera with flange distance of 46.5mm.

    More information here: The Development of Wide-Angle Lenses
     
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  18. sujoyp

    sujoyp Well-Known Member

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    I think this is the correct definition..lens should also focus on infinity

    Simpler: the distance in mm from optical center of a lens to the imaging sensor when the lens is focused at infinity.
     
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  19. OP
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    nac

    nac Well-Known Member

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    Sujoy and Raja,
    It's little complex to understand. I have bookmarked the link. Will read again few more times and check videos if there's any to understand.
    Thank you guys.
     
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  20. raja manuel

    raja manuel Active Member

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    I went to the Image Today Photo Expo today, which was held in the Chennai Trade Centre. This was as badly organised as the other event I attended – it took me a while to figure out there were two halls because there were no signs to indicate this – but it was a lot better.

    Sony, Fuji, Panasonic and Minolta had large stalls as did DJI. Godox, Simpex, Tyfy, and Hako all had huge stalls – I haven’t even heard of the last 2 brands. Someone had taken an entire large stall just for cables. Epson had a huge presence there. The big guys had the obligatory model for you to photograph, though Tamron’s model didn’t have any takers. She just sat there smiling at anyone who passed by but no one bothered to stop for a click. Fuji not only had the model, but they had another girl present to introduce the features of their cameras in Tamil. This is the first time I am seeing non English presentations at one of these events and I must say it is a good strategy by Fuji. They can’t directly compete against Canon, Nikon, and Sony, so they are going after an audience that the big 2 ½ ignore.

    There were many other small stalls as well that had lots of interesting stuff. One stall from someone who had come all the way from Mumbai only offered small props. An entire booth was devoted to Magmod; I didn’t even know you could get those in India, let alone a store in Chennai. Eizo monitors were also a pleasant surprise. The most unexpected one was a store in Chennai that takes 3 photos from you (front, left and right profile) and 3D prints either 3” bust or 5” full body figurines of you.

    The odd thing about this expo was the large number of non-imaging related stalls, especially in the second hall. Many engineering colleges were present showing off drones and robotics projects which had nothing to do with photography. Rubbing shoulders with a stall offering free service for Nikon, Panasonic, and Sony cameras (really long queue for that one) was one offering instant geysers, a Canon printer store had a bun and jam stall next to it (no, really!) and bizarrely, one small stall offered everything from container homes to bulk uniform stitching.

    I heard about this expo through a Facebook post by a store from whom I had previously bought lighting equipment at a previous expo. Ironically, I couldn’t find them there, but that wasn’t too surprising. The large number of stalls and the huge crowd meant that I was lucky to find the exit!

    Attaching a photo to give you an idea of what it was like there. This is less than a third of one hall. IMG_20180722_122201.jpg
     
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