Avengers: Endgame Spoiler Discussion
- Thread starter Zangetsu
- Start date
I don't see a single plot hole here.
The problem is that we are too used to thinking that when the past is changed, the ripple effects into the future are realised instantaneously. That is, say if you go and kill your grandfather, you immediately get wiped away from all existing photos.
In Endgame, the logical consequences and the ripple effects have the time to play out. Like Stark showed with the visualisation, the time curves back into itself, where both versions of events play out.
So, this timeline that twists into itself but always flows in the same direction has two sides. In one side, Thanos dies in 2014, Gamora jumps to 2023, there is no Snap, Stark and Nat are alive and well. There is no heist, which means that Thanos does not die in 2014, the Snap does take place in 2018, and there is a time heist in 2023. So the paradox resolves itself when given the time, but both sets of events take place.
icebags
Technomancer
the logic behind thanos double blade sword, for those whoever interested in melee weaponology. 
"Clearly Thanos is a thousand-year-old character who has fought everyone in the universe and is the greatest: He's the Genghis Khan of the universe, so he would have the greatest weapon," Russo said. "He knows of Eitri, he's been to Eitri to have his glove created. Did he have them create his blade as well? Potentially. But it's interesting that it could destroy the shield."
- Director Joe Russo
"Clearly Thanos is a thousand-year-old character who has fought everyone in the universe and is the greatest: He's the Genghis Khan of the universe, so he would have the greatest weapon," Russo said. "He knows of Eitri, he's been to Eitri to have his glove created. Did he have them create his blade as well? Potentially. But it's interesting that it could destroy the shield."
- Director Joe Russo
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nac
Aspiring Novelist
I think I understood this theory.
... First I thought we can bring back Tony and Natasha using time space GPS and Pym particles by going few days back to Avenger compound.
... Later, my understanding was if we do bring Tony and Natasha, that means there would be no Tony/Natasha to go and get those stones. Then no snapping back those people to life from IW. Of course that would be a branch and EG timeline not gonna affected by that. But closing the branch is what they are trying to do at the end.
If there is not gonna be any alternate reality with all the stones returned, why not bring them back to current time?
or
If those branches are vanished, then Thanos didn't come to EG and Avengers didn't fight the war against Thanos and Iron man didn't die.
Seems like this theory is screwed up.
The original branch remained with Thanos & everything exactly as it was before leading to IW event.The Thanos that came from past who died along with his army was resurrected back in 2014 as soon as timeline was restored/infinity stones were returned.It only means that Thor & group who killed Thanos in 2018 now have a memory of killing him again in 2023.
nac
Aspiring Novelist
Yeah. If branches are erased or vanished after returning the stone, means Hulk snapping should also be erased. Why? Coz Nebula who comes from 2014 is part of that branch. She is the who brings Power stone which Hulk used it to snap the people back to current time. So this theory doesn't make sense at all.
You are confusing present of "prime/original" timeline with past of other branches.In prime timeline "any present unexpected events" are allowed(like hulk getting stone from past & then snapping) but such events are not allowed in "other branches in past" because that will change the original timeline & will create branches(e.g.an alternate 2014 branch where there is no guardians of galaxy & no gamora/thanos). Think of it in this way,any event not undone after endgame(except vision/black widow/iron man)=that many different timelines=that many infinity stones*6(or other number)
nac
Aspiring Novelist
In that case bringing back Tony and Natasha using time space gps not gonna create any branches. So the rest of the avengers chose those two to remain dead. Captain could've taken two extra gps with him when he went to return those stones.
That's not going to work,issue is not with time space gps but with the way Tony & Nat died.Tony can't be resurrected in prime timeline because he is always going to be the one who snapped the past version Thanos away(aka the only possible future which Dr. Strange saw in IW where Avengers won & the reason he gave time stone away to save Tony's life in IW),his resurrection demands another assemble of infinity stones in prime timeline which is not possible. As for Nat,she died as a payment for soul stone which was then used in Endgame snaps so she also cannot be resurrected because her resurrection means soul stone cannot exist in prime timeline at the time of Endgame snaps(you cannot have duplicate/2 versions of same soul of Nat of original timeline).
Most of the "branches" are closed off soon after they were created, be replacing the stones. This is tricky, and very problematic for the soul stone, but if we just go with that, then there are just two big loops - cap's trip through time, and the time heist.
Now, if Infinity War showed another sequence of events, it does not matter if parallel universe, or other side of a twisted timeline that curves back into itself (mobius strip), it would be something like:
-Thanos jumps to the future and gets killed
-There is no Ronin
-Thor is fit
-Antman exits the quantum realm as planned
-Nat and Stark Live
-There is no time heist
Now, this is a sequence in the twisted section of the prime timeline, and there is a twist, which is the time heist, which allows thanos to be killed in 2014. On the other side of the timeline, we have the series of events shown in Infinity War and Endgma.e
The trick is to follow the sequence of events as a gradual progression, instead of directly looking at the end results. Both versions of events are played out simultaneously, in the same timeline. It does not have to be interpreted as a parallel/branching universe, although it can be.
It is possible to bring back Stark and Nat with a subsequent Time Heist, but I suspect the full impact of the snap is not shown in Endgame, and we might see it in future MCU movies.
Now, if Infinity War showed another sequence of events, it does not matter if parallel universe, or other side of a twisted timeline that curves back into itself (mobius strip), it would be something like:
-Thanos jumps to the future and gets killed
-There is no Ronin
-Thor is fit
-Antman exits the quantum realm as planned
-Nat and Stark Live
-There is no time heist
Now, this is a sequence in the twisted section of the prime timeline, and there is a twist, which is the time heist, which allows thanos to be killed in 2014. On the other side of the timeline, we have the series of events shown in Infinity War and Endgma.e
The trick is to follow the sequence of events as a gradual progression, instead of directly looking at the end results. Both versions of events are played out simultaneously, in the same timeline. It does not have to be interpreted as a parallel/branching universe, although it can be.
It is possible to bring back Stark and Nat with a subsequent Time Heist, but I suspect the full impact of the snap is not shown in Endgame, and we might see it in future MCU movies.
First,from the point of practicality this won't happen.It is better to reboot the entire marvel lineup or go with some other plot line instead of stretching the original movie lineup(think of terminator series). I don't think Marvel is going to make this same mistake.
Second,from plot line view this won't happen either.Tony can be resurrected but that requires another time heist which definitely is not going to happen just to save him. As for Nat,I already explained why it is not possible.Her soul is already used for getting soul stone in 2014 so no matter what happens,nat's soul & soul stone cannot separate from each other after 2014 meaning any attempt to bring back nat's soul will undo the snaps of 2023 as there will be no soul stone there.You can argue that there is still Nat in 2014 alive & well then my explanation is that even if Nat remains alive & well from 2014 to 2023 her soul remained linked with soul stone because cap returned soul stone back in 2014 which was then taken by Thanos in 2018 using gamora soul. Think of these souls as rent payment for soul stone so there is no one soul linked to soul stone but multiple souls over time who were used as payment to get soul stone & all these souls will remain with soul stone for ever.
Yeah, I agree they won't do that. Thing that worries me is how did Cap return the soul stone?
And in that long FB interview in previous page, Joe Russo confirms that the MCU is going forward with the effects of the snap, which was a brave thing to do. Half the universe is five years younger than the other.
And in that long FB interview in previous page, Joe Russo confirms that the MCU is going forward with the effects of the snap, which was a brave thing to do. Half the universe is five years younger than the other.
Flash
Lost in speed
If time passes differently in Quantum Realm (like Ant-man just spent 5hrs in QR, while the rest have spent 5 years in the world), how Janet Van Dyne came exactly older like Pym, when she got pulled from QR by Ant-man team? Should she be somewhat Younger or Older (since time passed through her) than the Ant-man team?
As told by Stark, Scott turned into Child and Old man (in the 1st attempt) because the rest of the Avengers are pushing time through him, instead of pushing him through time? Assuming team Ant-man didnt have this Stark's insight and its idea of Time tracker GPS, how did the team pulled Janet off QR without increasing/decreasing her age w.r.t to age per nature's course?
As told by Stark, Scott turned into Child and Old man (in the 1st attempt) because the rest of the Avengers are pushing time through him, instead of pushing him through time? Assuming team Ant-man didnt have this Stark's insight and its idea of Time tracker GPS, how did the team pulled Janet off QR without increasing/decreasing her age w.r.t to age per nature's course?
Just my guess but exactly after nebula & hawkeye returned to 2023 & as soon as cap returned it & went back,2014 timeline was reset so peter quill was on his way to get stone without getting knocked out & thanos was in his usual place in 2014.
My guess is that Janet is different from Ant-man in the sense that she actually lived inside QR for a long time so maybe the rules that affect Ant-man don't affect her in same way.
Sure, but how did Cap actually return the stone? Did he just go up to Red Skull and say, "here, you can have it back"? Does Cap not get a soul in exchange for the soul stone?
OP
Zangetsu
I am the master of my Fate.
I don't think soul can be exchanged for placing back soul stone.
Not sure but most likely he just need to drop the soul stone from that cliff.As for getting anything in return that is not possible because as I said earlier,any soul given as payment for getting soul stone is kind of like a rent(but without any fixed time period) so whenever the stone is returned the payment still stands.
icebags
Technomancer
but, capten needed to travel to that planet first. how could he do that ?