Avengers: Endgame Spoiler Discussion

[nac]

-Cap gets old with Peggy in peggycap reality, then jumps back to the prime universe.
-Snap does not happen in the reality from where Thanos gets into the prime universe future - this is the best reality because both Black Widow and 2014 Gamora are alive, and so are Iron Man and Vision

- Cap jumps back? If I have to assume, I would assume it as that he stayed with Peggy and got old. But how that timeline crossed prime universe is kinda loophole. If he stayed with Peggy, he didn't fight 2012 war (or he did fight as an old man), or who saved Bucky in Winter Soldier?
- Gamora 2014 is alive in prime universe. So in that reality Gamora doesn't exist unless she goes back there.

 

[Flash]

I think when Tessaract was returned to 1970 it reset any changes done in 2012 by future versions.Of course marvel can use this as an excuse to bring back loki in future but that would be a plot hole like I mentioned in my previous post.

Wasn't Loki truly dead in IW, just like Vision/Heimdall? As Prof. hulk said how many times he tried to bring back Natasha, he can't. So, i doubt Loki will appear in future.

Though, there's a possibility thanks to his (half?)sister, Hela. If he's truly dead and sent to hell, he can very well manipulate Hela to bring him back. We don't know for sure that Hela died at the hands of Surtur in Ragnarok.

 

[nac]

I think when Tessaract was returned to 1970 it reset any changes done in 2012 by future versions.Of course marvel can use this as an excuse to bring back loki in future but that would be a plot hole like I mentioned in my previous post.

If it can reset, will it reset everything. In that case, why bother returning the stones by going to each timeline. Returning one in 1970 wouldn't be suffice?

Wasn't Loki truly dead in IW, just like Vision/Heimdall? As Prof. hulk said how many times he tried to bring back Natasha, he can't.

Yeah, he did died. They can't bring him back using stones to current timeline. But he can be alive in the timeline branch they created in 2012 and in the 2014 timeline where Thanos comes to current timeline and died. If there is no Thanos in 2014 timeline, then Loki can't be killed by Thanos.

 

[Flash]

If there is no Thanos in 2014 timeline, then Loki can't be killed by Thanos.

From what I've understood from End game time-travel concept, one can't change the past. If they try to change, it will create Branch timelines though Original will remain intact. So, O will be present with B1, B2, etc.,

That's why Avengers time-travelled, picked up stones and tried to undo the after-effects of Snap, but not stopping the snap - because the snap will happen anyway, as it's a fixed point in Time per O.

 

[Zangetsu]

From what I've understood from End game time-travel concept, one can't change the past. If they try to change, it will create Branch timelines though Original will remain intact. So, O will be present with B1, B2, etc.,

That's why Avengers time-travelled, picked up stones and tried to undo the after-effects of Snap, but not stopping the snap - because the snap will happen anyway, as it's a fixed point in Time per O.

Yes, parallel timelines the only thing is they stole the stones from the timelines which were meant to be restored to its respective timeline

 

[nac]

Yeah, right. Past of current timeline won't change whatever they do. And there is NO option to change.

Cap returning the stones not gonna change Thanos travelling to current timeline. I can draw a picture and explain, but I hope you will understand it if you think a little more.

 

[whitestar_999]

If it can reset, will it reset everything. In that case, why bother returning the stones by going to each timeline. Returning one in 1970 wouldn't be suffice?

Yes,it should reset everything including no branching of original/prime timeline.Stones are not being returned to "their timeline" but "their original place in time". If someone took a stone in 1970 to use in Endgame then it needs to be returned exactly to 1970(that is also why loki getting tessaract is irrelevant because that was not used in Endgame as the one used was from 1970) & since there are 6 stones so there are 6 places in time they need to be returned. Existence of alternative timelines suggest more than 6 infinity stones as each timeline will have their own infinity stones but as per comics,infinity stones of a particular timeline/universe work only in that timeline/universe.

 

[whitestar_999]

Wasn't Loki truly dead in IW, just like Vision/Heimdall? As Prof. hulk said how many times he tried to bring back Natasha, he can't. So, i doubt Loki will appear in future.

If infinity stones are gathered again in a similar way then loki & Heimdell can be brought back but who would do that(infinity stones grant a single specific wish so it is either "undo the snap" or "bring back loki & heimdell"). Vision & Black Widow are special cases because Vision was created from mind stone so his existence require mind stone from start(after coming back) but mind stone cannot be with vision from the start if it is already in infinity gauntlet. Same is the case with black widow whose soul was a payment to get soul stone,you cannot bring a soul back which was already given as payment to get soul stone because if it comes back then transaction for soul stone stands null & void meaning no soul stone in the first place.

 

[nac]

Yes,it should reset everything including no branching of original/prime timeline.Stones are not being returned to "their timeline" but "their original place in time". If someone took a stone in 1970 to use in Endgame then it needs to be returned exactly to 1970(that is also why loki getting tessaract is irrelevant because that was not used in Endgame as the one used was from 1970) & since there are 6 stones so there are 6 places in time they need to be returned.

It's not clear and it's confusing. And I don't know why it's irrelevant Loki absconding with Tessaract. It's a total mess up by the makers, that's what I would say. Please don't bother explaining this for me again. Thanks

as per comics, infinity stones of a particular timeline/universe work only in that timeline/universe.

So Marvel bent the story for it's convenience to make this movie, then. Coz, none of the stones used by Tony are from this timeline/universe. All from different timelines/universe. Iron man snap shouldn't have worked then.

 

[Anorion]

The way I see it there are no multiple timelines(strictly in Endgame's context). Prime Universe IW snap was undone & that's it. Anything extra that happened in Prime universe & other "temporarily created timelines" were also undone by the end of the movie. Thanos did succeed but also died twice in prime universe(1st after IW snap & 2nd after coming from past of prime universe). The entire premise of returning infinity stones to their original places in past after undoing the snap was to prevent occurring of alternative timelines.

Anything opposite to above is simply plot hole if marvel does decide to bring back loki/gamora/iron man/black widow/vision in future movies of this phase of marvel movies.

The writers and directors do not seem to agree if there were multiple timelines or not.
We were just shown conceptually how returning the stones to the time that they were taken from, but not practically. He has to return the reality stone and put it back into Foster just after Rocket puts the Asgardian guards on alert. Returning the time stone to the Ancient One should not have been much of a problem, but when it comes to the power stone, it has to be done before Star Lord gets knocked out? Or Star Lord just does not remember getting knocked out? And really, what about the soul stone, he just shows up on Vormir and tells Red Skull, here take back the soul stone, we do not really want it anymore. Does he get a soul in exchange for the soul? After doing all this he jumps into the past and gets married to Peggy Carter, although she already had another husband that Cap rescued. (Although many MCU chars have appeared in TV Series, think Jarvis is the only character from a Marvel TV series to make it to the films). As Peggy Carter's husband was never mentioned, it could actually be Cap, although it seemed like it was another soldier that Cap rescued. It is just cryptic enough to be plausible.
In any case, the stones cannot be returned at the exact time, and there are slight changes in the universe, at least that would lead to a butterfly effect as time passes.

So where did Cap go to return Tessaract? 1970 or 2012?
Assuming he went to 1970 to return Tessaract and reunite with Peggy, they didn't close the timeline branch they created in 2012 where Loki took it and escaped.

Yeah, he cannot "fix" both the timelines.

- Cap jumps back? If I have to assume, I would assume it as that he stayed with Peggy and got old. But how that timeline crossed prime universe is kinda loophole. If he stayed with Peggy, he didn't fight 2012 war (or he did fight as an old man), or who saved Bucky in Winter Soldier?
- Gamora 2014 is alive in prime universe. So in that reality Gamora doesn't exist unless she goes back there.

Yes, exactly, plus Peggy has to pretend that she is not married to Cap when she meets him at her death bed.

Also, this is hilarious - all the problems with undoing the snap.

 

[nac]

Peggy doesn't have to pretend, coz that young Cap isn't there in that timeline. Only the old Cap who is her hubby now.

 

[whitestar_999]

So Marvel bent the story for it's convenience to make this movie, then. Coz, none of the stones used by Tony are from this timeline/universe. All from different timelines/universe. Iron man snap shouldn't have worked then.

That's where the confusion comes from,in my opinion all stones came from same timeline/universe but different times(each timeline/universe has its own past,present & future after all). In comics it is clarified by numbering of the different realities/timelines/universes,prime universe/main universe is Earth-616 & any infinity stone of Eath-616 universe will work in it whether it comes from the past or future of Earth-616 reality/universe.

 

[Anorion]

Peggy doesn't have to pretend, coz that young Cap isn't there in that timeline. Only the old Cap who is her hubby now.

Young cap is in the timeline, frozen in ice? Old cap could also have "rescued" young cap to change the timeline

 

[Anorion]

I really like the inverted mobius strip thing, because it can actually be an elegant explanation, which allows the events to play out in a mobius strip timeloop
Here, made these so you can print them out, and see how they work. Fold along the bold line, twist and stick the red bits.

*i.imgur.com/WKwIfWa.jpg

Working on a more advanced version with interconnected loops

It really does not matter if these (the two "sides") are parallel universes, or time folding onto itself in a single universe. However, when the same approach is taken for Cap, there is no need for an inverted mobius strip explanation at all, because surprisingly, his story is less paradoxical than say Nebula or Thanos.

1940s
Cappening, Zola is defeated, Cap is frozen in ice
1970s
Future Rogers + Past Peggy <3
2011
Cap is rescued from ice
2018
Snappening
2023
Time Heist successful, Cap returns as an old man

 

[nac]

Young cap is in the timeline, frozen in ice? Old cap could also have "rescued" young cap to change the timeline

Yeah, that's right. I missed it.

 

[icebags]

So where did Cap go to return Tessaract? 1970 or 2012?
Assuming he went to 1970 to return Tessaract and reunite with Peggy, they didn't close the timeline branch they created in 2012 where Loki took it and escaped.

very much valid concern. he will need another time travel to go 1970 and return the tes.

people are seriously thinking there is a plot build-up for future movies in this captain america thing.
probably he never returned the gems and secretly have been harboring them in peggy's basement. may be a dark captain america will arise soon, who knows.

 

[whitestar_999]

^^Most important point is whether Robert Downey Jr & Chris Evans will renew their contract with marvel(which I doubt) without which there should be no more original cap/original iron man in currently ongoing marvel movie series(aka not counting sam as new cap & some other person donning new iron man suit).

 

[Zangetsu]

Robert Downey Jr / Iron Man is dead he is not going to return
Will Robert Downey Jr make a comeback to MCU as Iron Man? Avengers: Endgame co-director Joe Russo answers | Hollywood News

 

[Anorion]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1187582631402444

 

[Anorion]

*i.imgur.com/bgPeJkq.jpg