The Worst Thing about Macs

[gxsaurav]

Consider the threads I mentioned. Car and stereo. A car can run without a stereo, no problem at all. Tomo if Maruti forces the user to buy some crappy stereo of their own (made by maruti -lol) thats not a good business practise.

The stereo fits in the stero compartment of the Car's chassis, u can fit any 3rd party stereo like Sony XPload

A Win32 software fits in Win32 enviroment of Vista, u can install any 3rd party software u like. For most users who are not geeks, the default out of the box applications are good enough.

Now if the media player or browser is a part of OS and they can't be removed - OK, agreed. Basically there will not be any need of the interface, am I right ? I mean the basic engine (whetever it is called) may be needed but not the browser as such and not the media player as such. Just like MS deliver Win without media player (yes they do even before the proposal) in EU, they can do it everywhere.

Which in turn will ruin the Out of the box experience even further & then I will send u to answer anyone who asks me "Why can't MS provide a media player & browser in Windows when Linux & Mac OS provides them out of the box?". I hope u know that Windows XP N was the least successful version of Windows ever created. Hardly any OEM in Europe is providing it.

Example - no stereo in car, but the space is left, so we can buy and put it there Simple isn't it ?

What if u want to play music just after leaving the showroom? Thats why a stereo is there already be default for a better out of the showroom experience.

MS always like monopoly and kill competition, as I mentioned on the other threads, at a customer point of view, we may not feel bad - afterall we get a browser and media player free ! But customer is not the only part in a business.

It would have been monopolistic if MS disallowed installation & usage of 3rd party media players & browsers as default in Windows.

When apple make something, thats not really a threat but when MS make something like that it is really a threat. Thats the difference.

ACDSee is a image manager & browser, you can edit images too. Adobe lightroom is again the same thing. Is Windows Photo Gallery a threat to these applications in Vista? What u r saying is not always true. MS is just trying to provide better out of the box experience. U want MS not to kill competition then tell users to stop asking MS for features out of the box in Windows.

bundling products to kill competition and monopoly. So there is no point in arguing at a customer point of view.

What....? Products are bundled with the OS so that user don't have to hunt for things after installing. At one point u r saying MS shouldn't bundle things with the OS while on the other hand mediator says he wants better out of the box Experience....lolz

Moral of the Story - Microsoft, damned if they do, Damned if they don't

 

[infra_red_dude]

Really, I doubt that judging by the sheer number of applications for Mac OS X & arya's reply.

Except the biggies like Photoshop, how many of them are comparable and a threat to the ones bundled in Mac OS X?

Wait, if you can see a HTML Help file, (*.chm) then there is a HTML engine still there in Gnome DE (example)

Thats what I said. The HTML engine is independent of the browser! Read again. Btw, there are no chm help files.

I don't like Quicktime, can I uninstall it in Mac OS X, sure I can, but then the software will be uninstalled but engine will still be there. If I remove the quicktime engine, Mac OS X will seaize to work properly.

This is exactly what I'm saying. Mac OS X is the least tolerant in this case. You are simply repeating what I haf said.

Fine, u do have the option to install anything else u want. I don't like Firefox in Ubuntu, where is my option to install Opera during the installation of Ubuntu & not Firefox?

Firefox is not a product of Canonical. Its a 3rd party product anyways. And Yes, you could've done that till sometime ago. You could've NOT installed firefox when installing ubuntu. However, some users complained that the installation was too complicated. Hence this feature was removed. You can do this in some other distros, tho. Btw, you can completely uninstall Firefox (or whatever web browser you use) and/or the Gstreamer backend and yet haf a system which has an unaffected HTML engine and allows you to install some other Multimedia backend.

This is, however, not possible in Mac OS and its not a problem either. I don't know of any multimedia engine for Mac OS which is better, other than QuickTime. If there was competition there this move would've been a bad one by Apply. They made sure that they held the reins in this category from begining and hence when Apple bundles it, its not threatening the existance of anyone.

Everyone knows that Apple is completely closed source and locked company. What more can you expect from it? Inspite of knowing this its futile to whine later. We don't want MS to become another Apple and its in the interest of the whole computing community.

Lolz...Safari better then firefox, u must be joking right

Mebbe you've never used Mac OS X properly.

I was comparing IE 7 software only, thats why i mentioned it clearly.

You were comparing IE7 with what?? With itself?? When you compare something you do it AGAINST another entity. It can never be a one man show.

 

[gxsaurav]

Except the biggies like Photoshop, how many of them are comparable and a threat to the ones bundled in Mac OS X?

iPhoto/Aperature - Adobe Lightroom
iChat - Adium
iWork - MS office
Quicktime - VLC player
iTunes - Monopoly but real player will do too.

Thats what I said. The HTML engine is independent of the browser!

Yes, & it will still be there, so u can very well "compleatey" uninstall IE 7 from Vista. Now whats your problem anymore?

Btw, there are no chm help files.

What the then what are those CHM help files (compiled HTML help) files which I got with AutoCAD & 3Ds Max which i read when i m having a hard time understanding physics of mental ray.

This is exactly what I'm saying. Mac OS X is the least tolerant in this case. You are simply repeating what I haf said.

Yup, so shouldn't Apple be sued too?

you can completely uninstall Firefox (or whatever web browser you use)

U can compleately uninstall IE 7 Software too.

I don't know of any multimedia engine for Mac OS which is better, other than QuickTime.

VLC Player engine.

Everyone knows that Apple is completely closed source and locked company. What more can you expect from it? Inspite of knowing this its futile to whine later.

So why blame MS when they bundle something to provide better out of the box experience.

Mebbe you've never used Mac OS X properly.

Read again, I have mentioned that Safari software is better then firefox on Mac, cos its native & integrated in Mac OS. But as a browser Firefox is much better then safari on Mac.

I was comparing IE 7 frontend software part to Firefox software frontend

 

[din]

At one point u r saying MS shouldn't bundle things with the OS while on the other hand mediator says he wants better out of the box Experience....lolz

Hmm, the ids din and mediator are two and they are of different persons. Both views may be same, may be different, and I failed to understand why you wrote like the same person posts contradicting. Both are from different persons.

Why MS bundle things is - not to help customers. It is very clear from the very old browser issue itself. They still repeat the same old trick and the US and EU courts give orders against them.

Regarding safari and FF. I never used safari in a mac and I do not know. Are you using a mac ? I mean not a PC and all those hack to run mac os and not the safari in win. The real mac. Unless you use that how can you tell whether safari is good in a mac or FF ?

Now don't tell you do not own a mac, but you borrowed from a friend for 2 days and you found FF better than safari.

What if u want to play music just after leaving the showroom? Thats why a stereo is there already be default for a better out of the showroom experience.

Hmm, seems you didn't read my post. Please, this is not a thing that can be analysed a customer point of view. This is un-ethical business practise that kills competition and a threat to other companies. Nothing to do with customer.

now - story of the day lol

All characters in this story are fictious. There may be similarities in the name or character but the author did not meant that

Yr 2008. Hero in the movie - gy_saurav attend the MS interview. Bill bhai ask him questions and by looking at the posts he made in different forums and his capabilitis in UI design Bill is pretty happy and decide to appoint him in MS Bangalore. But ask him to join only in 2009. gy_saurav decide to go to blore in 2008 itself and plans to start a juice stall (to earn something before he join MS). He start a juice stall near a womens college (no, he has no plans for vista install at night 2 am). On the second day another guy from culcutta, one mr.varyaush came to knew this. By selling all the apple fruits he had in godown he is flying to blore. On the very next day another guy called Praka_new from Kerala also came to know that and selle his rubber estate and move to blore. Both these guys starts fast food shops very near to gy_saurav's shop. None of these are exclusive juice shops. varyaush offer 50 Rs apple biriyani and 1 big glass juice is free with it. Praka_new offer free food but the customer have to - either prepare it himself or pay for making it. All three shops are working fine. One day two friends - infra_blue_dude and dan decide to go out to have something. They decide to enter gy_saurav's shop. Now varyaush raise a big board - come here, have juice for free and they all see Praka_new's shop too. The story is complete here. Anyone can use this for free and make their own end part etc. But in the un-altered story, gy_saurav is out of business, heart broken (only ray of hope is Bill Bhai's promise) and the movie ends with the song ...

Every night in my dreams I see free juice ...

end of the movie. There is no way to beat a person through internet after reading all the crap he wrote, , so I am very safe

 

[gxsaurav]

Hmm, the ids din and mediator are two and they are of different persons. Both views may be same, may be different, and I failed to understand why you wrote like the same person posts contradicting. Both are from different persons.

Moral of the Line - A product cannot satisfy everyone equally.

Why MS bundle things is - not to help customers.

So bundling a web browser so that user can check his mails 2 mins after installing Windows is bad? Wow...I don't understand the logic u r using here.

Are you using a mac ? I mean not a PC and all those hack to run mac os and not the safari in win. The real mac. Unless you use that how can you tell whether safari is good in a mac or FF ?

Because safari software works same on Macintosh or Hackintosh

Now don't tell you do not own a mac, but you borrowed from a friend for 2 days and you found FF better than safari.

Nah, I test Mac on my nearest Apple store

Hmm, seems you didn't read my post. Please, this is not a thing that can be analysed a customer point of view. This is un-ethical business practice that kills competition and a threat to other companies. Nothing to do with customer.

Rule one of business : Satisfy the customer. Providing a stereo out of the showroom is satisfying the customer. Whats the problem? With that logic Maruti shouldn't provide the car with seat covers, belts, stereo, tire, gearbox, nitro...jet engine & what not.

now - story of the day lol

gy_saurav is out of business, heart broken (only ray of hope is Bill Bhai's promise) and the movie ends with the song ...

How? Those who don't want to eat & only want juice can get juice from gy's shop for less then Rs 50 compared to varyaush, & they don't even have to prepare juice first themselves compared to praka_new's shop. They just want to drink some juice so why wait & labor to prepare it or buy apple biryani when all u want is some juice to end the thirst.

Why are the customers forced to buy biryani when they want to drink some juice?

Why the customer is forced to make the juice himself when he wants to drink something & go back to work.?

 

[mediator]

Phew....man @Din/Dan is dangerous!! I was searching for my alias in the story half the time. U shud compete with Dan Brown man!

 

[infra_red_dude]

iPhoto/Aperature - Adobe Lightroom
iChat - Adium
iWork - MS office
Quicktime - VLC player
iTunes - Monopoly but real player will do too.

Adobe, MS Offie aren't the biggies? I think I clearly mentioned biggies in my post.

What the then what are those CHM help files (compiled HTML help) files which I got with AutoCAD & 3Ds Max which i read when i m having a hard time understanding physics of mental ray.

AutoCAD and 3DS Max run on GNOME??? Read your post again.

Yup, so shouldn't Apple be sued too?

Ethically yes, practically NO. Coz when you buy an Apple product you know that you are locked beforehand. Thats what I mentioned. The Mac territory is completely under Apple. Its like this: If you goto Saudi Arabia and commit a crime your hands mebbe chopped off and there's little you can do anything about it. But here in India inspite of committing a crime if such a thing happens then you can approach a court. You can't complain about Saudi Arabia coz you know beforehand about the laws.

Same is the case with Apple. You know beforehand what you can expect and what you can't.

VLC Player engine.

You think its a threat to the Quicktime engine on Mac?

Read again, I have mentioned that Safari software is better then firefox on Mac, cos its native & integrated in Mac OS. But as a browser Firefox is much better then safari on Mac.

Sorry I cudn't find this in your post. Plz point me to it.

All I could find was this:

Safari software works better then Firefox software on Mac

About comparing IE and FF

I was comparing IE 7 frontend software part to Firefox software frontend

Yes, FF is more secure out of the box than IE.

@Din
Awesome story, obscure but very relevant!

 

[gxsaurav]

AutoCAD and 3DS Max run on GNOME??? Read your post again.

Oh, Ok,...u never mentioned u were talking about Gnome.

Same is the case with Apple. You know beforehand what you can expect and what you can't.

Moral - Apple & Mac OS sux

You think its a threat to the Quicktime engine on Mac?

No, but its better then Quicktime engine & I can't switch to i on Mac, so why do people sue MS only when they provide DirectShow engine in Windows which cannot be completely removed.

Yes, FF is more secure out of the box than IE.

Questionable & subjective. Out of the box firefox is useless without extensions

 

[infra_red_dude]

Oh, Ok,...u never mentioned u were talking about Gnome.

I never spoke about it. It was your own statement:

Wait, if you can see a HTML Help file, (*.chm) then there is a HTML engine still there in Gnome DE (example)

Moral - Apple & Mac OS sux

Its like saying Saudi Arabia sux, refering to the prev. example. But people who are accustomed to staying there still like it, rite? They don't haf any problems coz its their decision inspite of knowing it beforehand. However, its not the case on the PC platform. You know how things are here.

No, but its better then Quicktime engine...

I don't think so. Again it mebbe subjective.

so why do people sue MS only when they provide DirectShow engine in Windows which cannot be completely removed.

I'm with you regarding this. I think the whole DX package is worth its weight.

Questionable & subjective.

Security is neither questionable nor subjective.

Out of the box firefox is useless without extensions

IE is no better. Someone shed some light on Safari on Mac (Macboys only plz) The best OOBE is provided by Opera tho. It has everything bundled in a small package.

 

[gxsaurav]

Security is neither questionable nor subjective.

Security is not questionable, but whether firefox is more secure then IE 7 out of the box or not, this is questionable.

Opera is best out of the box. Just that due to lack of support for AI roboform I don't like it.

 

[infra_red_dude]

but whether firefox is more secure then IE 7 out of the box or not, this is questionable.

Why does Opera get a step-motherly treatment always? Its not IE vs FF. Its IE vs. 3rd Party alternative browsers (including Safari)

 

[gxsaurav]

I just said in a very polite way that Opera is not for me.

 

[iMav]

Example - no stereo in car, but the space is left, so we can buy and put it there Simple isn't it ?

unfortunately u arent aware of the fact that most cars over 5lakh come with a pre-installed music system research before speaking

 

[goobimama]

Uh....I used to use firefox without any extensions. And I find it much better than IE. Questionable and subjective? I don't think so. Everyone in the office loves firefox as well, out of the box. No extensions added.

And safari does not run the same in OS X and Windows. Same goes for iTunes. First of all they are really zippy on OS X. Then there's the large scale integration with the other apps which you don't get in the windows environment. Everything is integrated with one another...

@din: Awesome story! I wonder who you mean by gy_saurav.... must be someone from this forum...hmm...

 

[din]

unfortunately u arent aware of the fact that most cars over 5lakh come with a pre-installed music system research before speaking

Hmm, I know this is offtopic, but as you mentioned I will reply.

My SUV is over 5 lakh, I bought it 6 months back and it didn't come with a stereo. And yes, I did a nice research before I buy

On the other hand, small cars mostly come with stereo, thats a trick too. Coz they give ads like get free gfts worth 20,000, get stereo free etc etc. But when we buy cars over 5 lakh, we mainly look on other features and not the pre-installed stereo or the small gift things they give.

If you still want to do a research, go here - *indiacar.com/buynew/new.asp - very useful.

And finally, I always wanted to mention - car company making stereo - only that point and not any third party good stereo system attached to the car.

Off topic - over.

@din: Awesome story! I wonder who you mean by gy_saurav.... must be someone from this forum...hmm...

No no All the characters are fictious.

And safari does not run the same in OS X and Windows. Same goes for iTunes. First of all they are really zippy on OS X. Then there's the large scale integration with the other apps which you don't get in the windows environment. Everything is integrated with one another...

Exactly. That is what I tried to mention. I never used OS X or mac. But I guessed safari may not work same in mac and in PC. Atleast thats the feedback I got from my clients who use mac for quite a long time.

 

[iMav]

ur SUV i dont knowq but pick up a civic u get 1; pick up a corolla u get 1 pick up a merc u get 1 pick up a crv u get 1 pick up a indigo u get 1 mahindra i hav no clue .... and how cud i forget my car pick up a city u get 1 ... maruti; santro and indica are only some who dont giv a system ....

however i am going off topic .... a car stereo is a device worth 15k not giving reduces costs drasctically and isnt an integral part of the cars working however an internet explorer and media player today are an integral part

 

[din]

@iMav

Oh no, we are diverting from the thread a lot.

First what I meant to say - Car makers (for example Maruti) giving stereo set made by them. Can you imagine a "Made by Maruti" stereo ? Thats the point. It is not about the third party stereo set you get with the car.

Coming back to teh topic, as I mention in the other example, those who are coming for a lunch will go for Rs.50 apple biriyani (they get a biriyani + juice free) instaed of having biriyani alone from one shop and juice from other shop. That kills the competition and the juice guy will eventually close down the shop. Thats it.

Now for a customer point of view, nothing matters, thats why I said we should not look at the matter at a customer point of view.

 

[iMav]

Now for a customer point of view, nothing matters, thats why I said we should not look at the matter at a customer point of view.

for a company its only customers to look at .... for MS and apple; for mozilla; ubuntu every1 its the users who they look at and nothing else more the customers better for the company .... so for a consumer pout of the experience is what matters and what will make the consumer upgrade and if an OS doesnot have a browser or a mail client or a media player why shud some 1 buy it yaar ...

u r forgetting that only a handful of computer sers know the difference between betweeen ie and opera or ff .... ie 7 by in itself is a rock solid browser and can compete with ff and opera so for a normal user it doesnt make much of a difference and that is what the whole thing is for whom it doesnt make a difference of whether it is ie or wmp as long as it does the what it is supposed to

i buy a hp r a compaq lappy or desktop with an os on it its gonna be really frustrating and pissing if the media player and browser arent there ... whats the point of buying it

 

[din]

Well, yes, I also agree the thing - Customer rules. That is why I support the laptop or PC companies should support more OS than Win and should give option to customer whether he need a OS with lappy, if so, which Os he need etc. Already discussed on the other thread.

Now the antithrust, monopoly, killing competition - all these are NOT related to customer. So we can't look at this issue at a customer point of view. When you are in a business you will know it better. Yes, customer is king and we should provide him everything PLUS we should follow the business rules, should know what we can do and we can't.

MS gave browser to customer free, and customer is happy - that is NOT allowed in business. It is similar to Maruti making stereo with a car making license. Maruti is not supposed to do it.

Still the point is not clear ? Or you pretend it is not clear ? lol

 

[iMav]

why isnt maruti allowed to start making its own music system just coz they have been making cars for the 3 decades

my company makes gas detectors and imports the gas sensors so is there a rule which forbids me from making gas sensors that i can use in my systems

if for ff and opera and google it is so muych big a deal tht MS bundles its own browser so why dont they make their own bloody OS and bundle or not bundle what ever they want to ...

MS is a software company they make an OS which is the mother of all softwares everything runs on a an OS so if they are making an OS an internet browser and media player are an integral part of it .... it is not like MS has started giving ie and wmp from vista .... they both have been a part of windows since 95 or b4 unlike ur example where amruti starts making music systems from this year ... MS has been bundling and improving ie and wmp since 95