^^ you think pak has control over its nukes? i think US controls pakistan's n-button. its highly improbabl for US to let pakistan's unstable govt to govt to control pak's nukess
pakistan's govt. has never been in control of their nukes!
It's always been their army. If I had to bet my money on some other country controlling pakistan's nukes, then I would bet on china.
should we go for a final change, should we attack on pakistan and destroys all the terrorists camp.....????
but there is another side of coin, the world is facing economic crisis,india too. so is this the right tym for the attack, we will also suffer a gr8 loss in terms of money n soldiers....!!! and both india and pak are nuclear power today....!!!
will this not agitate the world war......??? As America is supporting india and there are a lots of anti-american countries.........who would be with pak, muslim countries basically..........!!!
Also this is a matter of indian pride, so y dont we...........???
Yes to military action by India,
No to a full scale war against pakistan. But military action should not be limited to only destroying terrorist camps because as long as that territory is under pakistan's control, the terrorist camps will be setup again. Expand the scope and take control over PoK and over time, with the right political will, integrate it politically, economically and culturally with J&K and the rest of India.
India's economy will not go into recession due to the global economic crisis. It's growth will slow down but it will still continue to grow. Compare that to pakistan's economy which has had to borrow money from the IMF, without which it would have collapsed in one month(not exaggerating here). The situation is that bad for them. Even the pakistani army needs to pay its soldiers. Any conflict with India in Pok, if it drags on too long will cause a lot more problems economically, for pakistan than for India.
If the attacks on the world trade center and the subsequent invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq did not cause Muslim nations to engage the rest of the world in WWIII, then a conflict between India and pakistan over PoK will definitely not spark it off. Infact India has good relations with all the major Muslim nations. As for support to pakistan, the recent failure of the "Friends of pakistan" effort(organized by pakistan to collect funds for its economy) following which it had to beg from the IMF should be indication enough of the support that pakistan has.
Indian pride? Do we still understand what pride means? Besides if pride is to be the reason for getting into a conflict with pakistan, then you can be sure that we will not win. But if we get into it with the sole purpose of doing the right thing, then victory will be ours.
If they attack with nuclear weapons then their country will be history.They can destroy maximum 2-3 indian cities but they wont be alive to see all this.
pakistan must be having around 50-75 nuclear warheads or even more. It takes only a few minutes for their missiles to reach (every part of)India. So in the event of a pre-emptive nuclear attack by pakistan, we will be losing a lot more than 2-3 cities. All the major cities, the capital of every state of India, a huge chunk of our armed forces, including a lot of our missiles and nuclear capable fighters. Of course India will still be left with enough of a nuclear arsenal to effectively ensure the complete annihilation of pakistan and the
idea of pakistan.
In the aftermath, the entire subcontinent will be Indian territory, including Bangladesh. However the subcontinent which
you will be left with(because I would have been vaporised in the nuke attack on Mumbai
), will not be the fertile lands, rich in natural resources & culture that we know today. As most cities are located along the banks of rivers, the river system in the subcontinent will be polluted for a long long time to come. For eg. the Ganga(ganges) will cease to be a perrenial river as the glaciers which feed it during the summer would have melted away. One only needs to look at geography textbooks to understand the significance of rivers to Indian civilisation. The radiation will be effectively contained within the Indian subcontinent due to the Himalayas on one side and on the other side the mountain ranges in the NWFP of present day pakistan. So china will hardly be affected. There will forever be genetic abnormalities in future Indian generations. This will make it even more difficult for the survivors to rebuild India and it will be even later before they can dream of catching up with USA & china and the rest of the world, who will be inhabiting colonies on Mars before Akhand Bharat can again launch a Chandrayaan. It will be an Akhand Bharat alright, but instead of being a regenerated Bharat, it will be a degenerated Bharat.
UN and Nukes are two sides of a coin. Use nukes and Un will turn their head opposite..
India has a known no-first use policy about nuclear weapons. The world knows that a nuclear war will never be started by India. Every part of the world whose voice actually matters in the UN, is already facing problems caused because of not listening to what India has been saying about pakistan for such a long time. In the event of a nuclear war in the subcontinent, the UN has no reason to turn away from India because pakistan would be the rogue.
this is not the way to deal the situation, remember that pak is a nuke capale country, and there are very high chances that these terrorists will be having the same nuke weapons, recently US intel report says it suspects that they may posses nukes.
If terrorists had nukes, they would have used them by now. They don't have them yet. The US intel report says that the greatest threat of nuclear and biological terrorism comes from pakistani weapons falling into the hands of such terrorists. It's even more reason for the U.S.A to ensure that pakistani nukes are safe, which in turn is better for India. But pakistan will never allow, even the USA, to take control of its nukes. They would rather engage in a nuclear war with India or proliferate those nukes to terrorists. So its in India's interest not to wait for the US to do something but to go in and ensure its own security. India cannot be secure as long as Pok is not integrated with J&K. Because the people in J&K will continue to want to be in contact with people in PoK, so it is a political compulsion to keep the border open. Once we have that territory we can seal off the border with pakistan if we deem it necessary and not have to worry about people in J&K willing to compromise India's security with their desire to be in contact with their relatives in PoK. This will not guarantee India's security against nuclear terrorism but it will go a very long way in making it as difficult as possible.
Today had Pok been under India's control, we would have had direct land access to Afghanistan and the oil rich countries of central asia. pakistan would have been geographically cut off from china. The USA would not have had to make pakistan its "most important ally against terror". The USA has had to do that because the only way they can maintain the supply line to their troops in Afghanistan is through pakistani territory. The billions which the USA has given to pakistan would have been India's
. But today the situation is completely opposite and it needs to be changed to our advantage.
the solution to this is
1. we have a terrorist in our custody that can tell where are the camps
2. our intel has very strng proof against terror camps in pak. give all the proof to all the world or best the UN and create a preassure on them to all the countries come under one roof even the pak and destroy their terror camps.
1. It's not possible for him to tell us the exact location of the terrorist camp where he was trained, let alone the location of all the terrorist camps operating out of pakistani controlled territory. Atmost he can only tell us the general location where the camp is located but not the exact coordinates.
2. (Been there, done that, Failed)^n
I have said this earlier and will repeat it again, attacking pak isn't the solution for ending India's woes with terrorism.
pakistan is increasingly becoming the epicenter of international terrorism. In India's case, pakistan is the culprit. There is no need to attack the whole of pakistan. India just has to take control of PoK.
What we have in PoK and other areas as terrorist camps aren't some definitive buildings but makeshift camps. Even if we bomb them, whts the guarantee that they won't spring up elsewhere? Terrorists can be trained in any area of Pak or afghanistan. Do you seriously think that once these camps are destroyed, there won't be any future terrorist attacks?
There are definitive buildings where indoctrination is done. The camps where physical training is imparted are also infrastructure. If we don't have control over PoK and just bombed terrorist camps then they will be setup again but that does not mean we should not bomb those camps, because it will take them time to setup the camps(why do you cut your nails when they keep growing back?). If we did have control over PoK then we can ensure that indoctrination does not happen on the scale at which it is happening now. It will also mean we can club the Kashmiri "freedom struggle" with other such movements in India and classify them as an internal matter. Which country is bothered about the naxalite movement in India? If we destroy a naxalite camp in India, nobody is going to question us as it is our internal matter. But if we destroy even one terrorist camp in PoK then directly or indirectly it will cause a lot of international headache for us because that territory is under pakistani control.
Remember, US with all it's high tech gadgetary and intel and its 'War on Terror' started -8 years agao couldn't stop the international terrorism menace, couldn't bring an end to Taliban in afghanistan and also got itself stuck in Iraq.
The U.S.A hasn't been able to eradicate international terrorism. Even with all their money and technology, it is too big a task even for them. But the steps which they have taken have ensured that there hasn't been a single attack on mainland U.S since then. The motive for the invasion of Iraq is debatable, but invading Afghanistan, which at that time was the breeding ground for al-qaida is one of the most important steps.
Attacking pakistan now would be playing directly into hands of LeT and ISI. They WANT India to attack those areas so they can unite in the name of an aggression from India and shift the focus from the northern front of pakistan where the pak troops have to wage a war against their own home bred terrorists under US pressure. Pak already used a hoax call as an excuse to shift many troops to its border with India and started preparing for a so-called incoming attack, Imagine what they would do if there are real surgical strikes.
Even better for India to the turn the tables on pakistan. India has very good relations with Iran. We are
(or already done) building a road which will help us access Afghanistan via Iran. Should pakistan threaten to divert( or divert) troops to the Indo-pak border on account of aggression by India, India should pledge to send in(or send in) an equal number of troops into Afghanistan to help NATO forces in the war on terror. With India's mediation, it will not be impossible for the USA and Iran to come to an agreement on supply lines for NATO forces in Afghanistan via Iran, considering that Iran also has a lot to gain from this. This move by India will ensure that the USA is not dependent on pakistan for the war on terror and are still able to exert and maintain diplomatic, economic as well as military pressure on pakistan. Another advantage will be that in a PoK conflict, pakistan will be less inclined to divert troops to the Indo-pak border when it has Indian troops on its western border as well.
I would say that yes, its high time that we beef up our own security. Instead of attacking pak which won't stop future terrorist attacks, we should spend money on our modernizing our police and improving the Intelligence networks. Enhancing the security cover in all cities, federal agencies to tackle terror, ensuring better cooperation between all security agencies etc would be a rational thing to do.
Agreed that we definitely need to beef up our internal security. But installing a firewall on one system while there is an infecting system on the lan will just not be enough. No matter how strong the firewall, eventually it will be bypassed. You have to clean up the infector while simultaneously improving the defenses of the infectee.
As for the people- Stop giving bribes to policemen to get away from security checks/toll tax barriers or get things done faster for you. It's corruption and slacking at the job by persons responsible for security, that makes things easy for terrorists in their evil plans.
A corrupt man will always find a way to be corrupt even in the most honest of societies...and an honest man can also be forced to become corrupt if his honesty does not help pay the bills
. So its not only corruption which is a problem. Eg. If security forces were paid better, they would be more motivated to avoid corruption and stop taking money to allow illegal immigrants into India. But if the people who risk their lives are being paid less than our MLA's and MP's then what else should we expect.
And even if we fire away tens of nukes at their cities, it won't end the nuke war coz nuclear missile launchers aren't kept in cities but in remote places which could be used to launch further strikes. So any war which even has a remote possiblity to escalate into a nuclear war is a Strict NO-NO.
It is not necessary to take out pakistani nukes with Indian nukes. The U.S.A and India can engage in conventional strikes to take out atleast some number of pakistani nukes. Assuming that pakistan is able to launch every single nuclear weapon, there is still a
fixed limit to how many nuclear strikes pakistan can launch.
[a] If pakistan was to launch nuclear strikes on Indian military assets then India's nuclear strikes will not be against pakistani cities(atleast not until absolutely required). The first retaliatory strikes will be directed towards whatever nuclear arsenal they have remaining(if they even reserve any for later) and then against their already weak(compared to India) conventional military. This further limits the number of nuclear strikes by pakistan.
If pakistan would be foolish enough to exhaust their nuclear arsenal and launch a nuclear strike primarily(or only) against Indian cities, there would be no need for India to launch a retaliatory nuclear strike against pakistani cities. We can just as easily defeat pakistan with conventional forces(with a few nuclear strikes) and conserve our nuclear strength as a deterrent against any chinese opportunism during the war. That means we would then be able to use pakistani resources to rebuild what we would lose in a pakistani nuclear strike.
[c] If pakistan was to launch nuclear strikes against all Indian assets(cities, military etc.), even in that scenario they will be limited to how much of India they can take out before...So any nuclear strike by pakistan will result in their complete and utter defeat.
If India plays it correctly, then in the current situation, both heads & tails can be ours. What we do need is the right political will and for the common people of India to have the heart to take the enemy's punches before we get the opportunity to go in for the KO(knockout).
The people of India, who live in cities should have the least to fear about a nuclear war. If your city is hit, you will be vaporised long before your skin can signal to your brain that you are burning up. It's only those who feel they have a high chance of surviving a nuclear war with pakistan, who have to be worried. The rest of you need not & should not let the fear of a nuclear war stop you from calling for military action by India to take control of PoK, bindaas rehne ka, bole toh...live free and die hard!
India doesnt have the horsepower to floor Pakistan, and thats a fact. Imagine the amount of destruction it shall cause to the Indian subcontinent if the terrorists retort bck with missiles and fighter plnes of their own?? The militants are nothing but a rogue arm of the ISI, who gives a gurantee that Pakistan wont nuke us??
If in the course of the attack, China decides to run amock, what shall be our plight??? We cant attack them unless we have heavy backing from all quarters, which as of now, seems a distant possibility..
Barring nukes, the fact is that India does have good conventional military superiority, probably even enough to reintegrate pakistan into India. Even if we assume we don't have conventional military superiority to reintegrate the whole of pakistan into India, we still have more than enough to take over control of PoK. Terrorists don't have fighter planes. LTTE is the only terrorist organisation to have its own fledgling airforce.
This conventional superiority gap has been narrowing over the years. The longer we wait, the smaller the window of opportunity. Today their airforce cannot compete with ours let alone their navy. So even incase of a full-n-final nuclear war we will still be left with enough to completely annihilate pakistan and still rebuild ourselves. But tomorrow the situation could be completely different. They will be able to increase their nuclear arsenal and improve delivery systems to the point beyond which even India will not be able to rebuild itself incase of a nuclear war. Once we reach that point and we still don't have control of PoK, then there is absolutely no hope for India and her people to live without the fear of terrorism. Because then it will not be possible for us to take any military action even if we madly wanted to and without Indian control over PoK, terrorism will never end for Indians.
India enjoys the same nuclear non-strike guarantee which china does, in the event that china should try to take control over the disputed border areas through a conventional military attack. PoK is disputed territory. pakistan has been foolish enough to harbour terrorism to reach its goals, but they are not foolish enough to engage in a nuclear strike over disputed territory. As long as India maintains its no-first use policy and keeps the military strike restricted to a battle for PoK and not a war for the state of pakistan, India can be assured of having to engage only conventional and irregular pakistani military forces. Only when pakistan's existence is threatened will they nuke India. PoK is more of an obsession for pakistan and a means to achieve a more devious objective. They think since they have 1/3rd of the state, they can gain control over the remaining territory by waging a proxy war. If we control PoK and J&K, then over time they will accept it and focus their energy on building pakistan instead of destroying India and so will the people of J&K(the high turnout in the current elections in J&K is an indication of this). The lowest turnout in J&K elections have been in districts where people still live (literally) in huts made of stones and scraps, without electricity, piped water etc. The very basic things which we take for granted in our day to day lives. All this can be changed but again we need the right political will. (This is where the "social scheming" of pro-hindutva parties fails miserably )
Our politicians keep talking of how a stable pakistan is in India's interest. But it is the opposite which is true. More stable pakistan is, better its economy, better its conventional military vis-a-vis India, more potent will be its nuclear arsenal and EVEN MORE will be their support for terrorism directed towards India. Even if in some alternate universe we consider giving the whole of J&K to pakistan, it will not stop terrorism emanating from pakistan. pakistan will then try to divide India further and further until pakistan is the largest country in the subcontinent.
On the other hand we cannot even be sure pakistan will not nuke us even without any military provocation on our part.
It is well known that Pakistan does not have a “No First Use Policy.” Pakistani nuclear weapons will be used, according to Gen. Kidwai, only “if the very existence of Pakistan as a state is at stake.” This has been detailed by Gen. Kidwai as follows:
“Nuclear weapons are aimed solely at India. In case that deterrence fails, they will be used if
a. India attacks Pakistan and conquers a large part of its territory (space threshold)
b. India destroys a large part either of its land or air forces (military threshold)
c. India proceeds to the economic strangling of Pakistan (economic strangling)
d. India pushes Pakistan into political destabilization or creates a large scale internal subversion in Pakistan (domestic destabilization)
We already hear of all the nonsense anti-India propaganda by the pakistani media. What is to stop them from blaming India(which they already do) for pakistan's continued economic and domestic instability and coming up with propaganda to cultivate public opinion for a war against India? They don't even need public opinion for that. India could be hit by a pre-emptive nuclear strike when pakistan may be undergoing an economic collapse or intense domestic strife, at a time when we would not even be expecting it. And it will be a nuclear strike if pakistan starts the war, because starting a conventional war against India is futile for them.
If India thinks what happened in Mumbai is an equivalent of the 9/11 terrorist attack, then you are sorely mistaken. The scale and scope of 9/11 just cannot be compared to 26/11. What happened in Mumbai was only a test run on India. India's 9/11 is still to come and soon. It will be deadlier than anything which has happened anywhere in the world. Considering the appalling state of security in India, it could even be a pakistani pre-emptive strike disguised as nuclear terrorism. Those who advocate not going to war against pakistan are right, however taking no military action is nothing but signing of our last will as a civilisation.
Even though some time has passed and the heat has dissipated somewhat but its not gone completely, so we still have time to act. Even if we don't act now, if there is one thing India needs to learn from what happened in Mumbai, its the fact that an even deadlier terrorist strike will happen and when that happens, India should be ready with its military action plan to immediately take control of PoK and to deal with any consequences thereafter.
"Strike while the iron is hot"
...or wait for the blue boy to descend for the final time...
