Reasons for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.

[aryayush]

How absurd! U think of PC as a huge luggage with a CPU around?? Dude PC stands for Personal Computer. Personal computer can be ur Laptop or ur Desktop Computer. Classification remember? This was also exlpained in Digit magazine I think and how people confuse a PC with Desktop computer always. When I say "I carry my PC to work", then its obvious that I'm referring to my Laptop. I'm surprised u didn't know that.

This is the conversation we were having:

BTW, a bare-bones Mac Mini costs 32-33k.

BTW with 32-33k I can buy everything Linux needs for a spectacular desktop...

But you cannot carry it to the office with you, can you!

Atleast I can!

We were talking about a Mac mini and a self-assembled PC. Now when you said that 'atleast I can (carry it to the office with me)', why would I assume you were talking about a laptop! I know you can carry a laptop anywhere with you, we were talking about the CPU.
__________

Please put a clear view of the desktop atleast so that we can be absolutely clear.

That's the best I can do with a 1.3 megapixel cellphone camera, iPhoto and my very limited knowledge in the department of photography. Sorry!

Then why are you saying that => below highlighted!

Why are u justifying it? Are linux users justifying why linux lacks in gaming department? If it lacks, then it lacks! Buts its improving though.

First of all, it is not something that the Macintosh lacks. You can easily disable the effects.
And it is not necessary that every single thing that I post about the Macintosh has to be certified by Apple. I participate in a lot of forums related to Apple and hence, know the reason behind not making the option of diabling the effects very obvious. Certain things would even become confusing if you disabled the effects (like managing virtual desktops and Exposé).

Why do u want a slanted windows in Mac as u posted??

Slanted windows serve no purpose at all and you won't find them anywhere on the Macintosh (like the first screenshot you posted of Fedora Core). If you are referring to the genie effect of minimising windows, it helps if you have a large dock because you get a visual indication of where the window was minimised to and don't have to hunt for it later.

Well u wanted the effects in linux and wanted some comparison. Why r u discussing its pros and cons??

Because that's what we are here to do. Macintosh does not have useless effects. All the effects serve a purpose apart from looking fancy. However, most of the screenshots you posted had effects that were just eye candy and served no real purpose.

U and @Andy posted the Mac effects in some images, but I guess the linux effects are much greater than those then. Is that all Mac has in UI ??

There are more but it's not possible to take screenshots of them in action because they get out of the way very quickly. Rest assured, there are more effects than you can count on your fingertips.

Neways u asked for transparency. So, I like transparencies a lot with a lot of abstract stuff in UI. Its not a bother, but it really help u to se whats going on in file download, program compilation etc. Transparencies can be increased or decreased as per ur like and to make u comfortable. So its not a bother. Its a very nice end-users experience!

It's subjective but I have always found transparent windows cumbersome, and specially the ones with text.

As for highlighted part, Again, INSTALLING is not an end-users task. I hope u understand that now!

If you want XGL/Compiz/Beryl, who will instal it for you? You have to do it yourself, don't you?
And if you don't consider it to be end-user stuff, then why are you saying that Linux has the effects too. Someone has to instal the effects before you can use them.

So do u have equivalent Mac desktop images for ones I showed u for Linux??

No, you don't have transparent or wiggly windows on a Macintosh and I am very thankful for that.

Enough sarcastic statments bro. I heard all the way in this forum that its Mac which keeps on copying things from Linux and windows and doesn't contribute the code back. Neways, yea copying is done in every OS!! But in this forum alone I learnt that Mac is the leader in "copying" department!

I couldn't care less who copies the code from whom. Yes, it is ethically wrong if Apple has ripped off code from the Open Source community and has not given anything back to it, but I have only eddie's very unconvincing word for it and I am not likely to believe that in a hurry.
What I was talking about were the features, the effects, the UI. And I don't even have a problem with MS or Linux copying them. I just think it's more logical to side with the innovators than with the followers. Of course, if you save a huge amount of money by using Linux (and are satisfied with it), by all means, continue using it.
All I ask is that if you are willing to spend some money for a better experience, you should treat yourselves to a Macintosh. However, if you don't, all the better for existing Macintosh users as it certainly makes us unique.

As for the catch-up game, can u tell me when did Mac make its entry in the world of Desktop OS?? Mention the year. ANd now tell when the desktop boom in Linux world started?? Compare the number of years of what it was then and what its now!! The last 4 years alone has seen Linux emerging from nowhere to almost everywhere except in gaming department. Compare the number of users it had 4 yrs ago to the number of users at present!

That is because Apple and Microsoft started from scratch and Linus Torvalds (and all other subsequent Linux developers have) had a firm base to build upon. Plus, Linux developers have nothing (at least not much) to lose even if their OS or application fails to make it to the big league because there is no (or not much) finance involved. However, Apple has to consider every decision very very carefully because they cannot afford to lose. Even Microsoft is relatively risk free now.

So I don't think Linux will "always be playing the catch-up game". Who knows what might happen in next 4 years. In future Mac may not be able to play even the catch-up game.

LOL! That's certainly never going to happen.

And just for a teaser of how convenient a Macintosh is, consider this example. I had typed up a sizeable response to mediator's post about carrying the laptop around (my previous post) but then I decided to close the page for some reason. On Linux or Windows, you would have pressed 'Ctrl + A', 'Ctrl + C', opened up Text Editor/Notepad and hit 'Ctrl + V' and saved it. Then when you wanted the comment back, you would have opened the text file, copied the whole thing again and pasted it back wherever you wanted it. What I did was hit 'Ctrl + A', drag the selection onto the desktop and when I needed it again, just dragged the clipping on the desktop back onto the textbox where I wanted it. Believe me, it's much more convenient. The difference between both processes would hardly be a second or two, but the Mac's method is much more functional and elegant.
This is just one tiny example. There are several such things that you won't even notice when you get used to a Macintosh - unless you try your hand at Linux or Windows again.

 

[mail2and]

Thanks for the tip, aayush! I never knew about this.

I think a lot of comments in this forum are quite childish in the sense that people don't understand how businesses are run. In another thread, an enlightened gentleman said that the CEO of a $67 billion company didn't get a certain idea, and then he brushed aside his own comment by saying that it was a joke.

It's also got to do with ignorance and the tendency to make sweeping statements, without confirming facts.

People call me a fanboy, but if you check any of my posts about OS X or Macs in general, you wouldn't find any point made by me that wasn't a fact. If anyone does, he/she is welcome to point that out to me.

Then, there is a tendency to base the purchase of a computer on a person's wealth. I think no one has a right to make comments about how rich or how poor a person is.

Then, there are people who make comments about a platform in general, without checking facts or without bothering to know what the platform is about.

I think if anyone wants to have a serious and unbiased discussion on any platform, ArsTechina is a really good site. However, they do not and will not accept childish comments.

 

[aryayush]

Thanks for the tip, aayush! I never knew about this.

Glad to help!
You can select and drag any text (or images too) to and from any Cocoa application. When you drag it onto any folder in the Finder, it gets saved as a clipping. For example, you can drag text from Safari into an email you are writing or into an iCal appointment. A very fundamental use is dragging comments from others' posts into the quick reply box at the bottom of the page on online forums (such as this one).

 

[sgireesh]

aryayush says
"Linus and subsequent developers had nothing to lose!".

compare this to complaining about the CEO of a $67 billion corporation..

Aryayush, because Linus gave linux "under the GPL" doesn't mean he could afford to lose years of work. The same goes to subsequent developers...
Then you say there are no business decisions around linux. So where does Red Hat, Suse, Ubuntu etc come into.

"Linus had a firm base to build on"

Nah, it wasn't the mac or the windows that gave him the base. The linus developers built it themselves from ideas not bases...

As for carrying the CPU, linux laptops are available for 25K. Look around.

Finally,

"all mac effects have a purpose".

so what does that mean?
All effects on linux have a purpose too. The slant windows effect is there to give a fluid feel to your desktop . It kinda eases your eyes...

there are more effects that you could count on your fingers

Why do you try to bring this discussion back to the effects?
__________
late post: left out one detail.

And just for a teaser of how convenient a Macintosh is, consider this example....

well the thing works on linux. atleast for word documents on gnome. It automatically saves it as a file. then dragging the file into a new document inserts the contents back. so probably the other nifty things you speak of exist too

 

[mehulved]

That is because Apple and Microsoft started from scratch and Linus Torvalds (and all other subsequent Linux developers have) had a firm base to build upon.

Who said Mac OS X was started from scratch? It was taken forward from Nextstep. And Linux kernel was made from scratch. Then all the apps had to be designed so they work along with the kernel. So, nothing about Linux was handed on a platter unlike OS X. And still OS X takes from Open Source community read Cups, KHTML, etc. So, Linux isn't the one who always plays catchup.

Plus, Linux developers have nothing (at least not much) to lose even if their OS or application fails to make it to the big league because there is no (or not much) finance involved. However, Apple has to consider every decision very very carefully because they cannot afford to lose. Even Microsoft is relatively risk free now.

Those people have their time and reputation at stake that's a big enough thing. And there are commercial distros too so they have chances of loosing out on a lot of money.

 

[mediator]

For conversation part I didn't know mac mini refers to dekstop pc. Then mac book must be laptop right?

That's the best I can do with a 1.3 megapixel cellphone camera, iPhoto and my very limited knowledge in the department of photography. Sorry!

Why do u need to take photo from cellphone?? Doesn't Mac allow u to take desktop snapshot??

And it is not necessary that every single thing that I post about the Macintosh has to be certified by Apple. I participate in a lot of forums related to Apple and hence, know the reason behind not making the option of diabling the effects very obvious. Certain things would even become confusing if you disabled the effects (like managing virtual desktops and Exposé).

Well if its not written in the OS faqs or its website, but rather discussed in some forums, then its indeed is a justification. Neways if u can't understand that then I don't have any problem with that.

Slanted windows serve no purpose at all and you won't find them anywhere on the Macintosh (like the first screenshot you posted of Fedora Core). If you are referring to the genie effect of minimising windows, it helps if you have a large dock because you get a visual indication of where the window was minimised to and don't have to hunt for it later.

All I wanted to say different effects have different purposes and some are for eyecandy. I just installed Beryl on Edgy. It was a child's play. The first thing I noticed was genie effect as u said. Woah beryl is awesome, but I read compiz is better. So will check it out too.

Because that's what we are here to do. Macintosh does not have useless effects. All the effects serve a purpose apart from looking fancy. However, most of the screenshots you posted had effects that were just eye candy and served no real purpose.

U said "most". I hope u don't count transparencies in it. I luv transparencies. And they serve me well.

There are more but it's not possible to take screenshots of them in action because they get out of the way very quickly. Rest assured, there are more effects than you can count on your fingertips.

Isn't there a way in Mac to delay that quickness so that they get out of the way a little slowly? About the number of effects well that can be experienced if I ever use Mac. Right now beryl is working awesome. Too good!

It's subjective but I have always found transparent windows cumbersome, and specially the ones with text.

Where have u used transparencies?? Check out knoppix 4 or 5 and u'll find the transparencies in it very "eye-friendly" not cumbersome. I guess Mac doesn't gives u "eye-friendly" transparencies and thats why u find it cumbersome.

Here are some transparencies

*www.imageupload.com/uploads/thumb_06247_Screenshot-1.png

*www.imageupload.com/uploads/thumb_1f30d_Screenshot-2.png

If you want XGL/Compiz/Beryl, who will instal it for you? You have to do it yourself, don't you?
And if you don't consider it to be end-user stuff, then why are you saying that Linux has the effects too. Someone has to instal the effects before you can use them.

U don't understand the concept of users classification. Please google some, or read some good software engineering books please. Like wise u said powerpoint etc doesn't come preloaded with default installation of Mac. Does it mean the same as u said?? As @sgireesh said it is no brainer task in Mandriva and I find it no brainer task in Ubuntu also. Why are u saying such stuff as above quoted?? Obviously if it can come in repostories of free Linux then it can come in default installation of propreitary Linux. Is that what u asked for??
Also as I said installation is not end-users task. The system admin can install everything at his disposal and end-user can njoy it. So end-user doesn't have to do it himself!!
Remember we r dealing with end-user's experience, so please forget about installation part or read a good book to know what I'm saying.

No, you don't have transparent or wiggly windows on a Macintosh and I am very thankful for that.

I'm very dissapointed if tranparent windows aren't there in Mac. Didn't expect this. But it seems it ur biaseness towards Mac that is blinding u to see the importance of tranparencies. Yea it has awesome eyecandy tooo. As I said I just luv transparencies.

I couldn't care less who copies the code from whom. Yes, it is ethically wrong if Apple has ripped off code from the Open Source community and has not given anything back to it, but I have only eddie's very unconvincing word for it and I am not likely to believe that in a hurry.
What I was talking about were the features, the effects, the UI. And I don't even have a problem with MS or Linux copying them. I just think it's more logical to side with the innovators than with the followers. Of course, if you save a huge amount of money by using Linux (and are satisfied with it), by all means, continue using it.
All I ask is that if you are willing to spend some money for a better experience, you should treat yourselves to a Macintosh. However, if you don't, all the better for existing Macintosh users as it certainly makes us unique.

Atleast u understand now that Apple too copies code. But I dont understand how it makes Mac users "unique". All u r doing here is elobarating how good Mac is in UI and interface. Well having beryl on mah PC now, I feel unique too.

LOL! That's certainly never going to happen.

Well keep ur fingers crossed then.

On Linux or Windows, you would have pressed 'Ctrl + A', 'Ctrl + C', opened up Text Editor/Notepad and hit 'Ctrl + V' and saved it. Then when you wanted the comment back, you would have opened the text file, copied the whole thing again and pasted it back wherever you wanted it. What I did was hit 'Ctrl + A', drag the selection onto the desktop and when I needed it again, just dragged the clipping on the desktop back onto the textbox where I wanted it. Believe me, it's much more convenient.

This has been replied by @sgireesh. So just to add, I don't like to drag and keep mouse pressed straining my fingers. The method of "Ctrl + *" is much efficient for me.

This is just one tiny example. There are several such things that you won't even notice when you get used to a Macintosh - unless you try your hand at Linux or Windows again.

But dude how can u compare when u urself said plethora of times that u r a noobie to Linux world?? Atleast explore the Linux world to the same limit u have explored the Mac world!

 

[caleb]

Wow this is one of the long running, most informative arguments I've come across in a long time...just reading these posts I've learned a great deal...at least to my very limited knowledge base on Mac & Linux...keep going gentlemen.

 

[subratabera]

I think you have missed one of my previous post...

So you want all that Mac functionality, effects, animation, consistency etc. on Linux for free and don't want to wait for that...STRANGE!!!

Why don't you understand that Linux is not developed under a roof with a team of programmers who can interact with each other and discuss on problems with much more flexibility. Linux is a community effort which takes time and effort to develop something. All the programmers work in a non-consistent manner with little interaction with each other. Beryl is developed in only six months which took 5 years for Microsoft programmers. Don't you think that this is a surprise!!!

So wait for more surprises...And one day who knows all Mac users will switch to Linux.

Please comment...

 

[aryayush]

Aryayush, because Linus gave linux "under the GPL" doesn't mean he could afford to lose years of work. The same goes to subsequent developers...

Linus Torvalds spent a lot of hard work on Linux, yes. You HAVE to be prepared to work hard if you want to do something extraordinary. His was a commendable effort, but when I say that he had nothing to lose, I mean to say that he did not have millions of customers requesting all sorts of features, billions of dollars invested in his work, any sort of market goodwill to maintain or shareholders to satisfy. Yes, he stood to lose all his hard work if he failed (and that would be a huge blow to him), but would you know that there was a person called Linus Torvalds who was trying to make an operating system and failed? The failure would be his, but if Microsoft or Apple (or any other giant corporation including Red Hat, Novell, etc.) makes some drastic mistake today, they will be publicly humbled and will suffer huge financial losses.
That is what I meant to say. I am not demeaning the significance of Linus Torvalds' contribution to technology in any manner.

Then you say there are no business decisions around linux. So where does Red Hat, Suse, Ubuntu etc come into.

They came into the fray later. I was replying to mediator's comment that Linux has had so much success in just four years where MS and Apple did it in more than a decade.

Nah, it wasn't the mac or the windows that gave him the base. The linus developers built it themselves from ideas not bases...

Oh yeah? As if Linux would have been so advanced in four years had it been launched when Apple and MS came out with their first operating systems. No, it wouldn't. It would also have been struggling to find a footing had it been released as a bare-bones OS. But Linus Torvalds must have read some books on software programming and kernel development, or looked up the internet, or gained the knowledge from whichever source he preferred. But the technology was already out there because Apple and Microsoft had done it before. That is the base I am talking about.

As for carrying the CPU, linux laptops are available for 25K. Look around.

OMG! Who is talking about a laptop here? The whole world knows that laptops can be carried around, they are meant to enable mobility. We were talking about a Mac Mini and a self-assembled PC's CPU. Can you carry a CPU with you to the office? No, you can't - unless, of course, you are the proud owner of a Mac Mini.

All effects on linux have a purpose too. The slant windows effect is there to give a fluid feel to your desktop . It kinda eases your eyes...

You know what, you should accept it gracefully if your preferred platform has some drawbacks, which everything in the world is bound to have. The windows jangling around like a piece of wet cloth when you move them around serves no purpose at all. I have seen it in action so I know what I am talking about. Why should you feel that the desktop is fluid? It's not supposed to be.

Why do you try to bring this discussion back to the effects?

I just replied to mediator's question of how many effects there were on Mac OS X.

well the thing works on linux. atleast for word documents on gnome. It automatically saves it as a file. then dragging the file into a new document inserts the contents back. so probably the other nifty things you speak of exist too

It's not only there for Word documents, it's there even in Firefox. Though it's not as refined as on OS X, it's almost as good. I didn't know that. It's commendable.

For conversation part I didn't know mac mini refers to dekstop pc. Then mac book must be laptop right?

Yes, the MacBook is a laptop.

Why do u need to take photo from cellphone?? Doesn't Mac allow u to take desktop snapshot??

Not when either Front Row is activated or you are Command - Tabbing between applications.

All I wanted to say different effects have different purposes and some are for eyecandy. I just installed Beryl on Edgy. It was a child's play.

OK then, can you tell me how you did it? I want to try it out too.

Isn't there a way in Mac to delay that quickness so that they get out of the way a little slowly?

Yes, some animations happen in slow motion if you press 'Shift'. But you won't be able to understand the sliding effects with screenshots. You need to watch some videos of them in action. And better still, you need to experience them.

Where have u used transparencies?? Check out knoppix 4 or 5 and u'll find the transparencies in it very "eye-friendly" not cumbersome. I guess Mac doesn't gives u "eye-friendly" transparencies and thats why u find it cumbersome.

I even find the transparency in your first screenshot bothersome, and the second one useless. Gotta love the wallpaper though, it's cool. I'm a sucker for high quality three dimensional graphic design.

The system admin can install everything at his disposal and end-user can njoy it. So end-user doesn't have to do it himself!!

Where does this system-admin come in? On a single-user PC, there is only one person who has to do the instaling and he only has to use the machine. Therefore, instaling is an end-user task.

I'm very dissapointed if tranparent windows aren't there in Mac. Didn't expect this. But it seems it ur biaseness towards Mac that is blinding u to see the importance of tranparencies.

I did not like transparency even when I used Windows. I had enabled it on XP and it sucked. BTW, there are hacks and applications if you want to enable transparency on Macintosh too. However, the default operating system does not feature them.

So just to add, I don't like to drag and keep mouse pressed straining my fingers. The method of "Ctrl + *" is much efficient for me.

You find it cumbersome because you are not used to it. And you are not used to it because both Linux and Windows have crippled support for drag-and-drop. Of course you will find it useless if you want to drag a file onto the desktop from a maximised window and you realise that it's not possible. You have gotten used to copy-pasting files.
BTW, Mac OS X (and even Windows) has a feature called click lock. You don't have to keep the mouse button pressed to drag a file around.

But dude how can u compare when u urself said plethora of times that u r a noobie to Linux world?? Atleast explore the Linux world to the same limit u have explored the Mac world!

I am speaking out of the amount of experience I have. For example, I know it for a fact that Linux does not have spring-loaded folders and Mac OS X has them, so I am qualified to comment on it.
__________

So you want all that Mac functionality, effects, animation, consistency etc. on Linux for free and don't want to wait for that...STRANGE!!!

Paid Linux is the same as free Linux. And if you accept that free Linux is inferior to a Macintosh, then the debate is over. OK. That is what I have been trying to tell you.

Why don't you understand that Linux is not developed under a roof with a team of programmers who can interact with each other and discuss on problems with much more flexibility. Linux is a community effort which takes time and effort to develop something. All the programmers work in a non-consistent manner with little interaction with each other. Beryl is developed in only six months which took 5 years for Microsoft programmers. Don't you think that this is a surprise!!!

They have not even mastered those effects yet. Why are you comparing it to Microsoft? What does Microsoft know about good interface design!

 

[gxsaurav]

Paid Linux is the same as free Linux. And if you accept that free Linux is inferior to a Macintosh, then the debate is over. OK. That is what I have been trying to tell you.

Ok, u r compleately wrong here, despite of being a linux noob myself, i can say they are compleately different, U don't need to hunt for codecs or drivers in Paid linux such as Mandriva

 

[aryayush]

OK. I didn't know that. Sorry for the mistake!

 

[sgireesh]

aryayush says
Linus Torvalds spent a lot of hard work on Linux, yes. You HAVE to be prepared to work hard if you want to do something extraordinary. His was a commendable effort, but when I say that he had nothing to lose, I mean to say that he did not have millions of customers requesting all sorts of features, billions of dollars invested in his work, any sort of market goodwill to maintain or shareholders to satisfy.

Well in the last four years if i read that right! So in that case you should subscribe to the linux mailing list to see how many people come asking for questions to the kernel developers. Also how much is involved in the project.

Even in the beginning can't say he had nothing to lose in terms of money. For any programmer, time is money.

Leave out linux having a base to build on. When they started, both the mac and dos had a base to work too.. (if you have heard of PC-dos, IBM, AT&T etc etc..)

aryayush says
tell me how to enable beryl on etchy

i have posted how to enable compiz on mandriva. I use mandriva so i have done that. As for enabling beryl on mandriva, refer

*seerofsouls.com/wiki/How-Tos/BerylMandriva2007.

aryayush says
Where does this system-admin come in? On a single-user PC, there is only one person who has to do the instaling and he only has to use the machine. Therefore, instaling is an end-user task.

Did you watch Spider man 2 on ur Mac aryayush..
"With great power comes great responsibility..".
so to have the complete control of your system, you must be ready to do some things atleast. I don't think a MAC allows you "complete control" over your system.

They have not even mastered those effects yet.

that is going to change. of course they haven't mastered it. but that doesn't mean they aren't good or not nice.

What does Microsoft know about good interface design!

thats something to cheer

 

[aryayush]

Before I posted started this thread I went to Mandriva website & also their forum but there was way too much of jaragon (for a newbie to linux like me) to even understand anything.

See? This is the problem with Linux.

I don't think a MAC allows you "complete control" over your system.

Tell me something you can do as a system-admin on Linux and you think it cannot be done on a Macintosh. Don't give me some crap like 'you can view/modify the source code' or something along those lines. I couldn't care less about the code of the applications I use.

 

[sgireesh]

Tell me something you can do as a system-admin on Linux and you think it cannot be done on a Macintosh. Don't give me some crap like 'you can view/modify the source code' or something along those lines. I couldn't care less about the code of the applications I use.

I can change my desktop environment....
Login to gnome once, kde next, icewm next, well you get the idea. change of scene.

i could upgrade when i want without getting to worry about my credit card.

Originally Posted by caleb in the topic "Mandriva 2007 Questions Of A Novice"
Before I posted started this thread I went to Mandriva website & also their forum but there was way too much of jaragon (for a newbie to linux like me) to even understand anything.

aryayush, first read how simple it is to configure beryl from the link i gave. also read how to configure compiz that i posted. Then try and get the book

SUSE Linux
By Chris Brown

or boot ubuntu from the live cd and read the example file given. It has some simple and upto the point instructions.

If you cant understand things even after that you probably should get someone to work your computer for you...

Don't give me some crap like 'you can view/modify the source code' or something along those lines.

giving away the source code is not crap aryayush... it is a sense of freedom. Never, ever call that crap..

 

[mediator]

As if Linux would have been so advanced in four years had it been launched when Apple and MS came out with their first operating systems. No, it wouldn't. It would also have been struggling to find a footing had it been released as a bare-bones OS. But Linus Torvalds must have read some books on software programming and kernel development, or looked up the internet, or gained the knowledge from whichever source he preferred. But the technology was already out there because Apple and Microsoft had done it before. That is the base I am talking about.

Technology was way before Apple and Microsoft had done it. UNIX mother of all OSs. Remember?
If u had read about Linux Torvalds, he just created the kernel because UNIX OS was too expensive for him. So he just created a simple kernel to match the functionalities of OS. He sole task was to maintain the kernel.
Also Linux was primarily meant to be a server OS with more functionalities and applications in Networking field than any other area. But now things are changing with Linux achieving new milestones in Desktop area too.

Is there something wrong with Linux developers reading books on software programming etc? Mac developers also must have read some books to achieve M.Tech degrees first and then written or copied codes for Mac applications. So what so fuzz about it?

You know what, you should accept it gracefully if your preferred platform has some drawbacks, which everything in the world is bound to have. The windows jangling around like a piece of wet cloth when you move them around serves no purpose at all. I have seen it in action so I know what I am talking about. Why should you feel that the desktop is fluid? It's not supposed to be.

Somethings are for eyecandy too. Why is there a genie effect in Mac?? It serves no purpose. I dunno why do u say that it helps in identifying the minimised apps, coz in Linux minimised apps can be identified easily and the rest which are working in background like mp3 player, software installation, downloading etc can be moved to different workspaces. I hope u know what workspace is.
Can u show me some video so as to let me know that genie effect really has some purpose??

Not when either Front Row is activated or you are Command - Tabbing between applications.

Well thats a dissapointing end-users experience then that u have to take snapshots with cellphone for that.
In GNU/Linux u can take snapshot anywhere without any restriction for such kinds of images as u posted!

OK then, can you tell me how you did it? I want to try it out too.

*ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Ubuntu:Edgy/EyeCandy
*wiki.beryl-project.org/index.php?title=Install/Ubuntu
*wiki.beryl-project.org/index.php?title=Install/Ubuntu/Edgy/AiGLX

Last one was mine for intel!

I even find the transparency in your first screenshot bothersome, and the second one useless. Gotta love the wallpaper though, it's cool. I'm a sucker for high quality three dimensional graphic design.

Yea I luv such kinda of wallapers. Neways the transparency is awesome. It may be bothersome to u, but I find it better than the default UIs with uninteresting looks. Knoppix is an exception coz it has some transparencies enabled by default.
Neways I think it completely depends on the end-user of what he/she likes transparencies, elegancy, crystal effects, glassy effects or whateva. So u may like elegancy, but I like transparency+abstract stuff!

Where does this system-admin come in? On a single-user PC, there is only one person who has to do the instaling and he only has to use the machine. Therefore, instaling is an end-user task.

I understand what u r trying to say. But if u wanna debate for end-users experience then installation is outta topic. Please try to understand the ethics of debate and the various classifications.

There are 3 persons on a Business PC : an admin, a transaction operator, and an end-user. Both have their own meanings. But the work of all the 3 can be done by one person too. But again the total he is doing is for installation, transactions, playing games and njoying the UIs and listening to music etc i.e the work of admin,operator and end-user. U cannot say he is an end-user alone.

I hope u got my point now. Please don't make me repeat such simple concepts again n again as it becomes very uninteresting and demoralising.

I did not like transparency even when I used Windows. I had enabled it on XP and it sucked. BTW, there are hacks and applications if you want to enable transparency on Macintosh too. However, the default operating system does not feature them.

Yea I have experienced transparencies on windows and yea I agree they are no where near Linux counterparts.
Neways if u don't like transparencies, then it doesn't mean the rest of Mac users and Linux and windows users too don't like it. So its dissappointing as an end-users experience for Mac.

BTW, Mac OS X (and even Windows) has a feature called click lock. You don't have to keep the mouse button pressed to drag a file around.

I know that mouse need not be kept pressed, I have used it but again I find the the keyboard method much efficient than mouse one. And its not somethings about getting used to, its more about efficient computing. There are websites which don't even allow u to right click and all the UI functions are disabled there with the help of javascripts. What will u do for such sites?? Drag and drop?? Try "ctrl + *" method now! Its Much efficient and always working!!

I am speaking out of the amount of experience I have. For example, I know it for a fact that Linux does not have spring-loaded folders and Mac OS X has them, so I am qualified to comment on it.

But I'll recommend that u have some nice experience of 2-3 yrs first in both the OS's before even comparing and commenting upon them. There are a lotta things u still don't know about Linux and then saying Linux doesn't have this and that. e.g the things showed by @sgireesh and some effects by me and the copying stuff etc. But I'm glad ur acknowledging and accepting the truth.

Paid Linux is the same as free Linux. And if you accept that free Linux is inferior to a Macintosh, then the debate is over. OK. That is what I have been trying to tell you.

Who said so?? Please goto proprietary Linux sites and then tell if propreitary Linux is same as free ones.
And I'm not saying free linux is inferior to propreitary. How can u even imagine such a thing and bring such an absurd statement here??
U like everything to be installed in default installation, thats why I brought propreitary Linux in picture specially for u. Otherwise for the person who knows about the classification of users on the basis of their task, I wudn't even have to narrate him the differences between such users and make him understand that installation is not a part of end-user. But u can't understand such a simple concept. And then saying its "inferior, debate is over"??

Is Mac inferior coz it doesn't have office suite installed by default? It may not be much of a use for kids who like tp play games. But it is of extreme imprtance for students and working people. And thats a major setback to end-users experience in ur terminology who can't understand installation isn't a task of end-users.

Please try to debate without ur fanboyism and biaseness and u'll understand the whole lotta classifications and their meanings.

I hope u don't count fanboyism into personal comments. Even admins here with yellow coloured nicknames use it freely.

OK. I didn't know that. Sorry for the mistake!

Thats what I meant. Please have some good 2-3 yrs experience on Linux, know the classifications, the various differences like ones in paid and free distros and then compare and comment!

Neways I request u to please read the history of Linux,Mac and windows and history of computing and then compare and comment which one had a base and all.

 

[aryayush]

I can change my desktop environment....
Login to gnome once, kde next, icewm next, well you get the idea. change of scene.

I knew you could say only this. Well, I don't know a single Mac user who has ever expressed a wish to change the UI of Mac OS X, so that would be a pretty useless feature to provide. Plus, you can use software like ShapeShifter to change the theme if you want to. I tried it once, but I like the default theme so much that I reverted back to it.

i could upgrade when i want without getting to worry about my credit card.

What does being (or not being) the system-admin have to do anything with it?

aryayush, first read how simple it is to configure beryl from the link i gave.

It is easy only on Mandriva and Fedora Core 6 because they come bundled with support for XGL/Compiz. The process for enabling those effects on Ubuntu or OpenSUSE is much more difficult. At least, that's what I gathered from the various tutorials I have read.

or boot ubuntu from the live cd and read the example file given. It has some simple and upto the point instructions.

I did not get your point. What example file?

If you cant understand things even after that you probably should get someone to work your computer for you...

I'll have you know that I am very competent with a computer. I am the best among my family and friends. My brother called me from Siliguri to Kolkata for a software he is getting developed and I made a lot of contribution to the project. So please do not doubt my ability with a computer. My extensive knowledge of computer software is my most prized asset. (Of course, I know very little actual coding and am probably bested by many users here, but I would like to believe that I am well above the average computer user.)

 

[mediator]

I knew you could say only this. Well, I don't know a single Mac user who has ever expressed a wish to change the UI of Mac OS X, so that would be a pretty useless feature to provide. Plus, you can use software like ShapeShifter to change the theme if you want to. I tried it once, but I like the default theme so much that I reverted back to it.

Thats just an excuse! U mean Mac doesn't even have options for window managers?? Thats terribly dissapointing.
Its well known fact that mood of a person changes with climate and happening in surroundings. He likes to experience different things and not the same old thing which looks more dull after sometime.
U mean Mac has only one window manager to decorate and stare at?? Thats again dissapointing for end-users!

It is easy only on Mandriva and Fedora Core 6 because they come bundled with support for XGL/Compiz. The process for enabling those effects on Ubuntu or OpenSUSE is much more difficult. At least, that's what I gathered from the various tutorials I have read.

So what?? Previously u were saying that they have to be installed separately. I already told I prefer Ubuntu and fedora, some people might prefer Mandriva. Fight is between Mac and Linux, why are u being specific to a particular distro?? All distros aren't the same, Fedora is montrously bundled and Ubuntu is lightly bundled. Will u say Linux doesn't come bundled with enough apps??
Thats the real pleasure, that the competition between varous linux vendors is so great that we end-users experience different things with the release of each new distro.

I didn't know XGL/compiz come bundled with FC6 and mandriva coz I still use Fedora 5 on desktop. Anyways that enhances my argument of end-users experience even more. What say??

I'll have you know that I am very competent with a computer. I am the best among my family and friends. My brother called me from Siliguri to Kolkata for a software he is getting developed and I made a lot of contribution to the project. So please do not doubt my ability with a computer. My extensive knowledge of computer software is my most prized asset. (Of course, I know very little actual coding and am probably bested by many users here, but I would like to believe that I am well above the average computer user.)

U have extensive knowledge but its surprising that u still don't know that installation isn't counted in the task of end-user.

 

[gxsaurav]

meditator, u r in luck

I just saw a movie, the devil wears Prada, fantastic one....andrea is hot...

anyway, back to point, in this movie, there is a scene of just a few seconds showing the geenie effect in one of the computer she was working on, i cut the video here it is

*rapidshare.com/files/5436359/geenie_effect.mp4.html

Quicktime H.264 format, i hope it playes on linux, cos it will on Windows & Mac
__________

Thats just an excuse! U mean Mac doesn't even have options for window managers?? Thats terribly dissapointing.
Its well known fact that mood of a person changes with climate and happening in surroundings..

No wonder...when u r in love, the blue & White theme of Mac changes to White & Pink

 

[aryayush]

I hope u know what workspace is.

Why do you keep posting statements like this one?
'I hope you know what this is.', 'I hope you know what that is.'
I USE virtual desktops and I do not need anyone to instruct me what a workspace is about. If I cannot understand some terminology, I will look it up or ask you, you don't need to keep 'hoping' that I know the words you use.

Somethings are for eyecandy too. Why is there a genie effect in Mac?? It serves no purpose. I dunno why do u say that it helps in identifying the minimised apps, coz in Linux minimised apps can be identified easily and the rest which are working in background like mp3 player, software installation, downloading etc can be moved to different workspaces. I hope u know what workspace is.
Can u show me some video so as to let me know that genie effect really has some purpose??

I already replied to this and I am not sitting here to spoon-feed anyone. There are plenty of videos on YouTube. Do a simple search and check 'em out.

Well thats a dissapointing end-users experience then that u have to take snapshots with cellphone for that.

You cannot take a screenshot while 'Alt - Tabbing' on either Linux (I checked out Ubuntu) or Windows. The least you can do before posting something is try it out. It would have hardly taken a few seconds.
And how does not being able to take a screenshot on two particular instances make the end-user experience less than satisfying? The support for taking screenshots on Macintosh is much more versatile than any other OS. You can virtually take a screenshot of any activity.
In Ubuntu, I cannot even take a screenshot while I am dragging something.

In GNU/Linux u can take snapshot anywhere without any restriction for such kinds of images as u posted!

Try doing that while dragging something or 'Alt +Tabbing' between windows.

Talking about 'Alt + Tab' switching, you cannot use the mouse while using 'Alt + Tab' on Ubuntu. You cannot even close windows without bringing them to the foreground. On Mac, you can use the mouse and quit or hide the applications while using 'Command + Tab'.

*ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Ubuntu:Edgy/EyeCandy
*wiki.beryl-project.org/index.php?title=Install/Ubuntu
*wiki.beryl-project.org/index.php?title=Install/Ubuntu/Edgy/AiGLX

Last one was mine for intel!

Show that to any regular computer user. The last thing they will say is that it is easy.

I understand what u r trying to say. But if u wanna debate for end-users experience then installation is outta topic. Please try to understand the ethics of debate and the various classifications.

There are 3 persons on a Business PC : an admin, a transaction operator, and an end-user. Both have their own meanings. But the work of all the 3 can be done by one person too. But again the total he is doing is for installation, transactions, playing games and njoying the UIs and listening to music etc i.e the work of admin,operator and end-user. U cannot say he is an end-user alone.

I hope u got my point now. Please don't make me repeat such simple concepts again n again as it becomes very uninteresting and demoralising.

Sorry for not following the rules, sir - but please don't fail me in the examinations!
You do this every time. The moment you run out of points to make, you start saying that the topic is not within the 'ethics' of debate.
All I know is that I am the sole user of my computer. I have to do whatever is to be done on it. Therefore, if I want to instal anything on my computer, I have to do it myself. Tell me one thing, do you call some technician every time you want to instal something on your OS? Or do you not consider yourself to be an end-user?

Yea I have experienced transparencies on windows and yea I agree they are no where near Linux counterparts.
Neways if u don't like transparencies, then it doesn't mean the rest of Mac users and Linux and windows users too don't like it. So its dissappointing as an end-users experience for Mac.

TW, there are hacks and applications if you want to enable transparency on Macintosh too.

I know that mouse need not be kept pressed, I have used it but again I find the the keyboard method much efficient than mouse one. And its not somethings about getting used to, its more about efficient computing. There are websites which don't even allow u to right click and all the UI functions are disabled there with the help of javascripts. What will u do for such sites?? Drag and drop?? Try "ctrl + *" method now! Its Much efficient and always working!!

No website can block you from dragging its contents anywhere. I have only ever come across sites that block right clicking and drag-and-drop does not involve right-clicking at all. Before getting used to a Macintosh, I found drag-and-drop cumbersome too. Now I find it cumbersome to use copy-paste.

Please try to debate without ur fanboyism and biaseness and u'll understand the whole lotta classifications and their meanings.

Oh, and you are being totally objective and open to criticism? Yeah, I can see that.

 

[subratabera]

Oh, I think you are working too hard to show us the geenie effect on your Mac!!! Here I am to the rescue...
Use Wink (basically a Linux product ). Using Wink you can create content viewable across the web. Similar applications sell for hundreds of dollars, while Wink is free with unrivaled features...With Wink you can actually record your desktop events and then save them as individual images or a merged flash animation...

*www.debugmode.com/wink/wink.png

Hope this help...