Meddling the Middle Classes

[MetalheadGautham]

@grudge: I see that the students who come via reservation are scanned, and the lesser ones tutored. Fine.

but isn't this still unfair ? how do you think a student will feel if his neighbour who is an SC gets into IIT, and despite getting low scores is tutored for free for an year, while he himself gets no such opportunity despite being equal in status (knowledge and marks wise) to the SC student because he is from a so called forward caste ?

 

[confused]

@grudge: I see that the students who come via reservation are scanned, and the lesser ones tutored. Fine.

but isn't this still unfair ? how do you think a student will feel if his neighbour who is an SC gets into IIT, and despite getting low scores is tutored for free for an year, while he himself gets no such opportunity despite being equal in status (knowledge and marks wise) to the SC student because he is from a so called forward caste ?

agree ........ IMO IITs, IIMs are so highly rated only because their students are the "creamiest", not in terms of social status but in terms of merit/marks .....

guess the judges were on crack while passing the judgement......

 

[drgrudge]

@grudge: I see that the students who come via reservation are scanned, and the lesser ones tutored. Fine.

but isn't this still unfair ? how do you think a student will feel if his neighbour who is an SC gets into IIT, and despite getting low scores is tutored for free for an year, while he himself gets no such opportunity despite being equal in status (knowledge and marks wise) to the SC student because he is from a so called forward caste ?

I'm not arguing that Reservation is good (or bad). I replied back to iMav's misconception that IITs and IIMs have less standards for SC/ST.

I don't know if this helps but that's the way it is. If you score less in JEE, you'll be doing UG at IIT in 5 years.

Personally I believe that it does help some people. Reservation might be necessary but I'm not sure what's the best way to go about it.

 

[ray|raven]

^True, Reservations are still necessary in this country of ours.

But , there is no right way to go about them,for whatever way they are implemented , let it be caste or say economic background, there will always be people who want to misuse them, and there will always be politicians that will help these people, for the sake of votes.

As I said in my previous post, as long as vote-bank politics are there in this country, nothing good will come out.

 

[DigitalDude]

@Gautam
yes in a common perspective it is unfair for the general category student to see some OBC guy coming along with him with a less score and is the same for an OBC guy to see a SC/ST student coming along with a much lower score plus a free pass... but you have to put up with this for the next five years after which the reservation policy would be reviewed again.

This is all done so that even though the one who is getting admission using reservation they will get into a better social/financial status that their wards will be not needing the reservation... and for making sure (artificially instead of organically) that higher places of learning are represented well by all sections of the society instead just being filled with the Elite alone... but a small percentage of people happen to game the system but that is not possible now I guess.. the probability is greatly reduced.

but can anyone clear a query for me:

Let me assume I'm not coming under the creamy layer now. then I'm presented with a situation like this: I have got a GDPI call under the OBC quota but since I feel reservation is not quite right, I opt out of it and join some other college. But the seat I opted out of is going to be taken by a student with less score than me but in the same OBC quota and I will be effectively reducing one general category seat for a general category student who is a notch below me in the score ????

So am I further reducing the quality from the students perspective ? or am I adding more people from reserved class and making it better from the govt's perspective ??

so should I opt out and show my dissent but allow the above points ?? now what should I do and how should I feel

hope I'm clear ??



@confused
dont just show blind anger dude... no the judges are not allowed to be on crack while on duty


and I dont know why people always bring in IITs and IIMs into this. IMO OBC reservations are not going to affect the quality of these very elite instis even a bit. cos you need to put in a BIG ASS effort to even be considered by these instis for GDPI and there is helluva competition among the OBCs itself for IIMs and IIT and its just a fraction of a mark difference between the general category student and OBC students in all the cases though with some exceptions.

and you fail to see that there are a LOT of 'creamiest' people that you say who are not making into the IIMs and IITs so I dont think the ones in the IIMs and IITs are THE creamiest.. so is the scale of population in India and miniscule number of opportunities.

so dont go gaga over saying that the quality of these elite insti are gonna go down the drain nope thats not the truth... they are highly immune to this. A few people might lose opportunities in these elite instis cos of reservations but thats a small number and a large number of people are already losing many opportunities just cos there aren't enough...


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[Sykora]

so dont go gaga over saying that the quality of these elite insti are gonna go down the drain nope thats not the truth... they are highly immune to this. A few people might lose opportunities in these elite instis cos of reservations but thats a small number and a large number of people are already losing many opportunities just cos there aren't enough...

They _are_ going down the drain. The standards of IIT have been plummeting for quite some time now. A large number of faculty have left in search of greener pastures, because the students that they are teaching aren't as good as they once were. The faculty will have to be replaced, and the standards will fall further still, while those private colleges which do respect quality education will rise.

I just hope that when capable students start moving overseas en masse because they can't get seats here, the govt doesn't cry "brain drain".

 

[DigitalDude]

They _are_ going down the drain. The standards of IIT have been plummeting for quite some time now.

yes.. I never refuted that. Thats a general and bigger problem not just affected by reservations. There are a million causes for it.

but not as bad as you portray.. just see the number of placements and salary levels.

A large number of faculty have left in search of greener pastures, because the students that they are teaching aren't as good as they once were.

everyone is running for greener pastures more salaries more opportunties for them and they show the middle finger to other social issues in the country.

"because the students that they are teaching aren't as good as they once were."
haha people should be ashamed to say this even Its the other way round.
actually its a very GENERALISED problem not specific to a class of people or a particular policy like reservation.

Better qualified people dont take up teaching jobs (cos obviously there are green pastures out there) and the quality of teachers are well going down the drain and as a result the quality of education on the whole has been down and schools/colleges turned into production house of employees for the industry instead of imparting real education and channeling the best brains into research/teaching.

The faculty will have to be replaced, and the standards will fall further still, while those private colleges which do respect quality education will rise.

I just hope that when capable students start moving overseas en masse because they can't get seats here, the govt doesn't cry "brain drain".

standards are falling everywhere but the competition is ever increasing and also disproportionately to the available resources. btw not many private colleges can better the govt elite instis for many reasons like mgmt seats, high fees, mgmt attitude etc. along with good faculty/students preferring the latter.

and why are you saying 'when' ?? its already happening brain drain or not we benefit either way. the people who are going out insearch of greener pastures cant be blamed they want something better and are not in a position to make it happen here nor wait.. so let them go.. but many of them are bringing back many opportunities/wealth to the country after a period of time. IMO brain drain is an old problem actually its not much a problem now



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[confused]

@confused
dont just show blind anger dude...

how else i am supposed to react to something which so god damn crazy, it can happen only in india.......
its easy for you to digest since you've already done ur engg ........

IMO OBC reservations are not going to affect the quality of these very elite instis even a bit.

absolutely disagree. just wait and see.

there is helluva competition among the OBCs itself for IIMs and IIT and its just a fraction of a mark difference between the general category student and OBC students

if thats really the case then why have reservations at all for IITs, IIMs??? [i mean if there is no diff in standard b/n general and reserved category students, no need for reservations right???]

its not like the backward people absolutely have to have an IIT degree to progress.

IITs/IIMs are for ppl who can work hard ......... so does it make a difference whether one is forward or backward .......... [coaching classes are all crap anyway ........ any student whether rich or poor has to literally tear his @SS apart to stand a chance]

IMO IITs/IIMs should have no reservations....... everyone one on same platter......... work hard to get in ........

unfortunately $H!T is happening..........

 

[drgrudge]

It's quite interesting to see that none of the people here they want to work for NTPC, BSNL, NLC, BEML or ONGC. They feel their prospects in IITs, IIMs, NITs, AIIMS or IISc getting even tougher.

Private educational institutes also 'reserve' seats for people who can pay Rs 35 Lacs for a MBBS seat or Rs 7 Lacs for a BE seat. Why is there no hue and cry over it?

What about IAS, IPS and civil servant jobs? Even there we'll have over 50% of the seats reserved.

So you want to study in IITs, IIMs or NITs and get a phoren job.

Let me assume I'm not coming under the creamy layer now. then I'm presented with a situation like this: I have got a GDPI call under the OBC quota but since I feel reservation is not quite right, I opt out of it and join some other college. But the seat I opted out of is going to be taken by a student with less score than me but in the same OBC quota and I will be effectively reducing one general category seat for a general category student who is a notch below me in the score ????

So am I further reducing the quality from the students perspective ? or am I adding more people from reserved class and making it better from the govt's perspective ??

Most Institutes don't fill SC/ST/OBC seats for general students. It's always not filled. If you're opting out, you're not doing any good for the general students. The seats is filled by another OBC candidate or not filled.

The Center will increase the seats in the institutes in a phased manner. By 2010, they'll increase the intake by 54% so that the general category students are not affected.

 

[Sykora]

Better qualified people dont take up teaching jobs (cos obviously there are green pastures out there)

Obviously if money is the only criterion, nobody would be teaching.

Better qualified people take up teaching jobs because they have a passion for the subject, a passion that's killed if they're made to teach students who have be tutored for a year before they're fit to join the main stream. These teachers find places where their talent is respected more, and they're replaced by people who teach a syllabus.

actually its a very GENERALISED problem not specific to a class of people or a particular policy like reservation.

Reservation is a major cause of it. Of course not the only cause, but a major one nonetheless.

the people who are going out insearch of greener pastures cant be blamed they want something better and are not inposition to make it happen here nor wait.. so let them go.. but many of them are bringing back in many opportunities/wealth to the country after a period of time.

Are you saying that it's a good thing for people _not_ to study here, because it brings wealth and opportunity later on?

The day the govt functions for _all_ people, and not just the people who are likely to vote it back into power, will be the day the country flourishes.

Then again, that would possibly signify the end of the world.

IMO IITs/IIMs should have no reservations....... everyone one on same platter......... work hard to get in ........

Absolutely. Otherwise, the term "merit based education" will have no meaning.

there is helluva competition among the OBCs itself for IIMs and IIT and its just a fraction of a mark difference between the general category student and OBC students

Yeah right. Please explain mass discrepancies like a 160,000 AIR holder beating a 12,000 AIR holder if the former is in SC, based on that "fraction of a mark difference" theory.

Besides, if there's only a fraction of a mark difference, why does anyone need reservation? Obviously they're good enough to get in on their own merit, right?

 

[drgrudge]

its easy for you to digest since you've already done ur engg ........

3 new IITs in AP, Rajastan and Bihar is coming up this year and the first year classes will be held at IIT Madras, Delhi and Kanpur respectively. Also the seats in the other 7 IITs will be hiked by atleast 10% (exc. the seats in the 3 new IITs).

You've enough seats in IITs. With the increased reservation also, the competition is not going to reduce.

Instead of cribbing here, why don't you prepare for JEE and AIEEE?

 

[DigitalDude]

how else i am supposed to react to something which so god damn crazy, it can happen only in india.......
its easy for you to digest since you've already done ur engg ........

yes because you dont have a country that is as diverse (linguistically, culturally, geographically, socially and economically) as India

yes I have finished engg (phew!!) also have become a bit mature in those years..

absolutely disagree. just wait and see.

ok. will wait and see.. I'm just 22

if thats really the case then why have reservations at all for IITs, IIMs??? [i mean if there is no diff in standard b/n general and reserved category students, no need for reservations right???]

to also bring in people from a variety of social statuses to those elite instis which traditionally was filled with a single group of people...

but govt is very well playing politics but SC has given a good judgement in forcing the govt to exclude creamy layer from reservations.

its not like the backward people absolutely have to have an IIT degree to progress.

vice-versa... see drgrudge's post

IITs/IIMs are for ppl who can work hard ......... so does it make a difference whether one is forward or backward .......... [coaching classes are all crap anyway ........ any student whether rich or poor has to literally tear his @SS apart to stand a chance]

IMO IITs/IIMs should have no reservations....... everyone one on same platter......... work hard to get in ........

dont worry this ideal situation will be in a few years to come...

govt is just erring again to correct a previous error.. these things will be nullified in a few years
(remember I said "artificially instead of organically; artificially - reservations, organically - provide free quality education, hostels, food, for ALL deserving students. but artificially is faster than organically but has a few trade-offs)

unfortunately $H!T is happening..........

a LOT of other sh1t is also happening in the country.. let us fight against all of them instead of just filling our pockets...


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[iMav]

slugger uv missed the point:

10 students for iits/iims, before this ruling:

3 sc/st/obc 7 merit holders (in the true sense, playing on a level field)

after the ruling:

5 sc/st/obc, 5 merit holders

same amount of teachers, same number of seats, same number of institutes

now creamy layer or no creamy, there 2 merit holders who also have burnt the midnight oil, who have also gone from pillar to post to make the cut are being left out why, coz they dont have the new certificate of merit

hypothetically speaking even if the institutes are able to increase the number of seats by 25% to nullify the reservation effect, the std of the insti wil go down, the number of teachers remains the same, teacher crunch is already there, more students less teachers, quality of education goes down

now the second aspect of coping up, a student who has worked hard studied under the lamp post and got admission (no harm done, good for him, im not against reservation) he got admission based on reservation considering that he was less privileged than the ohers but now he is sitting with them, now there is gonna be no more incentives for him, his chances of of coping are lesser than the 2 guys who were left out to accommodate the 2 obc guys

@grudgy: yesterday's TOI front page: japan backs out of bihar iit citing law and order problem

 

[m-jeri]

grudge and digital..

both u r blowing this out of proportions...even with the increase in seats or inst...the reservations will also increase..

and yeas we are getting in for "phoren" jobs..its not like we are geting a free ride...ppl are working their asses off...you should atleast know some ppl who dreams to get their or already in their...

if all want ur phren jobs why dnt they just work hard not use their oh-so-my-caste-certificate...

so dont say crap more than the idiot ppl who done this..

and yes..saying abt other pblms...its "OFFTOPIC" hehehhe.. ..

something like education systems deserve a podium position in my heart....
others can take a back seat..not like they gonna change..so wat.....

 

[confused]

Instead of cribbing here, why don't you prepare for JEE and AIEEE?

thanks. point taken .......... logging off....

 

[DigitalDude]

Obviously if money is the only criterion, nobody would be teaching.

Better qualified people take up teaching jobs because they have a passion for the subject, a passion that's killed if they're made to teach students who have be tutored for a year before they're fit to join the main stream. These teachers find places where their talent is respected more, and they're replaced by people who teach a syllabus.

this 'passion' kool-aid and all is not correct anymore. VERY FEW people take teaching cos its their passion.

"These teachers find places where their talent is respected more"

what do you mean by this statement.. where can the teachers go.. you mean those 3 teachers who leave IIMs to go teach in Wharton ?? haha

the main problem is that there are not much teachers... leave alone quality ones...

Reservation is a major cause of it. Of course not the only cause, but a major one nonetheless.

I strongly disagree, there was SC/ST reservation right from the beginning.. (I again repeat) the situation is not as bad as you portray.. just see the number of placements and salary levels.

Are you saying that it's a good thing for people _not_ to study here, because it brings wealth and opportunity later on?

haha way to misquote... I said thats not a big problem as we anyway get wealth and opportunities back from them.

see China also has the largest number of people settling in the US and studying there.. so Brain Drain is not as big a problem nowadays as it was portrayed years ago.

The day the govt functions for _all_ people, and not just the people who are likely to vote it back into power, will be the day the country flourishes.

Then again, that would possibly signify the end of the world.

The day the govt functions for _all_ people, and not just the people who are likely to infuse funds into political parties, lobby for their industry, bribe to get stuff done, pay hefty amount to get mgmt seats will be the day the country flourishes.

hmm sarcasm eh? no thats not the end of the world.

Absolutely. Otherwise, the term "merit based education" will have no meaning.

as drgrudge said will you guys also show same solidarity and commitment in opposing the MGMT/NRI/Minister/MLA/Councillor/VC/Dean/Principal/INDUSTRY quotas ??

the reality of 'merit-based' education is very shady in most of the cases.

Yeah right. Please explain mass discrepancies like a 160,000 AIR holder beating a 12,000 AIR holder if the former is in SC, based on that "fraction of a mark difference" theory.

VVVV

and there is helluva competition among the OBCs itself for IIMs and IIT and its just a fraction of a mark difference between the general category student and OBC students in all the cases though with some exceptions.

Besides, if there's only a fraction of a mark difference, why does anyone need reservation? Obviously they're good enough to get in on their own merit, right?

god question... see my answer for the same question raised by confused..




p.s. I dont want any fights with members here. I dont want to be rude intentionally. I'm just trying to put some counter points to get things in perspective Please dont hate me


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[ray|raven]

Offtopic:

Ah, classic fight-club here,
Folks taking turns, quoting other's posts and writing against it.
Slowly, people forget the issue and the thread dies.

Classic.

 

[DigitalDude]

^^^^
Touché


but we do have some good discussions here

and people are polite only (by fight club standards)


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[drgrudge]

@iMav -
Do you think IITs and IIMs fill the 22.5% seats that are reserved? FYI, they don't.

 

[m-jeri]

exactly...they are lapsed.....