Man hypnotises himself before op

hullap · Apr 24, 2008

well actually that person didnt want to spend even a penny on anesthetics :lol:

karnivore · Apr 24, 2008

There is more to than meets the eye. This is something that should be taken with a little pinch of salt. Dr. Steven Novella, has already explored the case. Below is the extract from his blog

..........
What should an open-minded skeptic make of such a tale?
.........
Hypothesis #1 - The story is true as reported.
.......
If we assume that the news reports, however, were accurate in saying the Mr. Lenkei has no anesthesia at all - not local or general - is it feasible that he could feel no pain from such a procedure through self-hypnosis alone? I don’t think so........

Also of note the news stories report that Mr. Lenkei put himself into a hypnotic “trance” and yet during the procedure he was chatting with the surgeon - asking him how the procedure was going. He was also aware of conversations in the room and various sensations of the surgery - like pulling, and noted that his arm was in an uncomfortable position and he felt like he wanted to move it. This does not sound like much of a trance.

Hypothesis #2 - Local Anesthesia
...............
I find this hypothesis to be far and away the most plausible and likely.

Hypothesis #3 - His hand was already numb
............
It is possible that he also had nerve damage in his hand. Perhaps he has severe carpal tunnel syndrome and ulnar neuropathy -meaning that two of the main nerves that supply sensation to the hand are damaged. Therefore he may not have needed anesthesia because his hand was already profoundly numb.............

Hypothesis #4 - Mr. Lenkei cheated.

Mr. Lenkei is a practicing hypnotist, and he may have seen his surgery as an opportunity to demonstrate the power of his craft and garner some free press............

Hypothesis #5 - Multi-factorial

Finally, we may be dealing with a combination of factors. Perhaps Mr. Lenkei naturally has a very high pain threshold, and he has some nerve damage in that hand and therefore has reduced sensation. He may also have taken some pain medications prior to the surgery, or perhaps had some local anesthesia that is not being reported.

Conclusion

To be clear - I am not accusing Mr. Lenkei or his surgeons of anything. I am simply laying out various hypotheses given the information available on this story. I would love to have the opportunity to test these hypotheses, by questioning Mr. Lenkei and/or his surgeon. The question of local anesthesia should be the easiest to resolve.

If only the mainstream media utilized more dedicated science journalists - and in a health-related case ones with medical training. A skeptical and knowledgeable journalist should have asked the penetrating questions to ascertain whether or not this story is actually true. Instead the public was treated to a superficial and sensationalized account that is likely highly misleading.

mediator · Apr 24, 2008

karnivore said:
There is more to than meets the eye. This is something that should be taken with a little pinch of salt. Dr. Steven Novella, has already explored the case. Below is the extract from his blog

.........
What should an open-minded skeptic make of such a tale?
.........
Hypothesis #1 - The story is true as reported.
.......
If we assume that the news reports, however, were accurate in saying the Mr. Lenkei has no anesthesia at all - not local or general - is it feasible that he could feel no pain from such a procedure through self-hypnosis alone? I don’t think so........

Also of note the news stories report that Mr. Lenkei put himself into a hypnotic “trance” and yet during the procedure he was chatting with the surgeon - asking him how the procedure was going. He was also aware of conversations in the room and various sensations of the surgery - like pulling, and noted that his arm was in an uncomfortable position and he felt like he wanted to move it. This does not sound like much of a trance.

Hypothesis #2 - Local Anesthesia
...............
I find this hypothesis to be far and away the most plausible and likely.

Hypothesis #3 - His hand was already numb
............
It is possible that he also had nerve damage in his hand. Perhaps he has severe carpal tunnel syndrome and ulnar neuropathy -meaning that two of the main nerves that supply sensation to the hand are damaged. Therefore he may not have needed anesthesia because his hand was already profoundly numb.............

Hypothesis #4 - Mr. Lenkei cheated.

Mr. Lenkei is a practicing hypnotist, and he may have seen his surgery as an opportunity to demonstrate the power of his craft and garner some free press............

Hypothesis #5 - Multi-factorial

Finally, we may be dealing with a combination of factors. Perhaps Mr. Lenkei naturally has a very high pain threshold, and he has some nerve damage in that hand and therefore has reduced sensation. He may also have taken some pain medications prior to the surgery, or perhaps had some local anesthesia that is not being reported.

Conclusion

To be clear - I am not accusing Mr. Lenkei or his surgeons of anything. I am simply laying out various hypotheses given the information available on this story. I would love to have the opportunity to [size=+2]test[/size] these hypotheses, by questioning Mr. Lenkei and/or his surgeon. The question of local anesthesia should be the easiest to resolve.

If only the mainstream media utilized more dedicated science journalists - and in a health-related case ones with medical training. A skeptical and knowledgeable journalist should have asked the penetrating questions to ascertain whether or not this story is actually true. Instead the public was treated to a superficial and sensationalized account that is likely highly misleading.

Click to expand...

Already explored the case? Guess we shud take ur posts in the forums with "a little pinch of salt."

Besides, if u are linking something then u shud post the complete stuff or the relevant excerpts too. Don't u think so?

Steven Novella said:
I have e-mailed the hospital and I am trying to get contact information for Dr. Llewellyn-Clark so that I can fill in the missing details. If I do I will add an addendum to the post with the new information. Meanwhile, here are several possible hypotheses to explain this story.
..
.
.
It is true that pain is a subjective experience and is highly modified by our mood and attention. If we focus on the pain, even a minor pain can become very bothersome. Likewise, if we are distracted from our pain it can diminish significantly. Fear and anxiety will also tend to exacerbate the perception of pain. So it is plausible that using meditation to focus one’s attention elsewhere and keep oneself calm and free from fear and anxiety will significantly reduce the perception of pain. This can also reduce the need for sedation and pain killing surrounding a surgical procedure.

Neways since u like to quote wiki for reports and definitions, u can read this or may be this one.

So let the doc clear out what he wants. Keep ur mind at rest for the time being before uttering "he has already explored the case"! I hope u do understand in all ur conscious and unconscious state of mind what "hypothesis" is.

BTW, were u trying to ridicule hypnotism in general or just this case?

karnivore · Apr 25, 2008

And so it begins.......

Guess we shud take ur posts in the forums with "a little pinch of salt."

Be my guest. But i would like to know, why the term "already explored" irked you. Wait a min...no i don't.

..if u are linking something then u shud post the complete stuff or the relevant excerpts too. Don't u think so?

Because i am linking something, it makes more sense to not copy/paste the "complete stuff". I guess everybody can point and click on a link. And "relevant" is a subjective word. What is relevant to you, may not be the same to me.

Neways....u like to quote wiki for reports and definitions...

No i don't. The only way Dr Novella could be introduced was by referring to the wiki. And, the pdf, that you linked was actually provided by one of those who replied, by one who claims to be a hypno-anesthetist and who is not a doctor. Should have shown some courtesy to mention that. Also, the document is an internal finding of Mayo Clinic. It has never been published in any peer reviewed science/ neuroscience journal. The findings are fantastic, but not yet vetted by the peers. So....

I hope u do understand in all ur conscious and unconscious state of mind what "hypothesis" is.

And i hope, "in all ur conscious and unconscious state of mind" you know everything starts with a hypothesis. At least, science starts that way. It seems, you are clear about how things start on your side, but a little fuzzy about the other side. Anyway.......

BTW, were u trying to ridicule hypnotism in general or just this case?

What exactly is hypnosis "in general". I am not aware it. But, yes "spiritual" hypnosis is a great source of amusement for me. "Hypnosis" is something of a misnomer, when used in medical sense. It is use to denote "power of suggestion" i.e. the willingness of a person to accept, believe, do and feel, what she is told to and it is highly dependent on the susceptibility of that person, to suggestions. It has nothing "spiritual" in it. It is important to make this distinction, otherwise we might just get lost in interpretation.

mediator · Apr 25, 2008

karnivore said:
Be my guest. But i would like to know, why the term "already explored" irked you. Wait a min...no i don't.

Well if u don't, then please don't troll around. A case is known to be "already explored" when necessary facts, detailed study and complete interaction is done with the subject...i.e "EXPLORED". I thought u were mature enough to have understood this.

karnivore said:
Because i am linking something, it makes more sense to not copy/paste the "complete stuff". I guess everybody can point and click on a link. And "relevant" is a subjective word. What is relevant to you, may not be the same to me.

Guess u shud join media then, which recently entitled "Doctor ya fir Jallaad" for a simple case where X-RAYS showed a needle inside the stomach of a patient where in reality, in actual case, the needles were kept "besides" the patient. Thus, just frivolously insulting the doctor for a cheap news/masala and not giving the "complete" stuff. Well, I agree hypothesis seems more important to you then the ground reality of what remains to be seen and what is actual.

karnivore said:
And i hope, "in all ur conscious and unconscious state of mind" you know everything starts with a hypothesis. At least, science starts that way. It seems, you are clear about how things start on your side, but a little fuzzy about the other side. Anyway.......

U seem to be fuzzy on the whole news it seems.

karnivore said:
What exactly is hypnosis "in general". I am not aware it. But, yes "spiritual" hypnosis is a great source of amusement for me. "Hypnosis" is something of a misnomer, when used in medical sense. It is use to denote "power of suggestion" i.e. the willingness of a person to accept, believe, do and feel, what she is told to and it is highly dependent on the susceptibility of that person, to suggestions. It has nothing "spiritual" in it. It is important to make this distinction, otherwise we might just get lost in interpretation.

If u r not "aware" of what hypnosis is "in general", then why even ponce around? Since, u r not aware of it, then u must read this also and may be this too.

And finally...

karnivore said:
And, the pdf, that you linked was actually provided by one of those who replied, by one who claims to be a hypno-anesthetist and who is not a doctor.

Yes, it wud have saved me from linking it, if u have read the replies and understood what Dr. Steven is doing. So, it doesn't matter if the chap, who gave the link, is a doctor or not. More important is what is inside the link. So Read it. By now u must have understood that scientists are still discussing about hypnotism. So take a rest and add "hypnotism" also to ur list of fake "amusements".

Besides, u don't know what hypnotism is, u don't understand what spirituality is.....wht r u doing here? 'Amusing' me?

Again an excerpt from the blog.

Steven said:
If the story is accurate and correct as reported, then Mr. Lenkei had no anesthesia and his only form of pain control was his self-hypnosis. I find this to be highly implausible. As a matter of definition - we must first distinguish stage-hypnotism from the kind used by Mr. Lenkei, which is probably better described as deep meditation.

Read, just for ur "awareness".

karnivore said:
It is important to make this distinction, otherwise we might just get lost in interpretation.

Understand what u said or may be copied from somewhere, as it will help u.

phreak0ut · Apr 25, 2008

Why don't we request the mod to rename all the sections to "Fight Club" on this forum?

Faun · Apr 25, 2008

^^lol

karnivore · Apr 25, 2008

I thought, taking up an issue in search for answers is in itself an "exploration". I, at the time of hitting reply button, forgot we have a contortionist amongst us. Mea Culpa.

As with the media report, i don't even see a parallel. My quote can be verified, cause i have provided a link to the original, while a media report can't be verified by an ordinary person, because there is no means to do so. Buddy, you got to work more on your analogies.

Let me say this again. I still don't know what hypnosis is "in general". I know of stage/ spiritual (sic)/ clinical ones. The first two links actually talk of clinical one. Not stage, not spiritual. Like some kids who are unnecessarily elated by the mention of the word "candy", some of us get equally elated and start thumping our chests, by the mention of "spirituality", "hypnosis" or "meditation". That, these words may have different connotations as well, is something beyond their grasp.

Yes the pdf is interesting. But only if you had read my post completely you would have known my opinion on the findings.

As with amusing you....NAAAAH, you are not that important and i have better things to do. But, if you are still getting amused, well, good for you.

Regarding spirituality, Daniel Denett had this to say in his BREAKING THE SPELL.

....let me try to put better words in their mouths. What these people have realized is one of the best secrets of life: let your self go. If you can approach the world's complexities, both its glories and its horrors, with an attitude of humble curiosity, acknowledging that however deeply you have seen, you have only just scratched the surface, you will find worlds within worlds, beauties you could not heretofore imagine, and your own mundane preoccupations will shrink to proper size, not all that important in the greater scheme of things. Keeping that awestruck vision of the world ready to hand while dealing with the demands of daily living is no easy exercise, but it is definitely worth the effort, for if you can stay centered, and engaged, you will find the hard choices easier, the right words will come to you when you need them, and you will indeed be a better person. That, I propose, is the secret to spirituality, and it has nothing at all to do with believing in an immortal soul, or in anything supernatural.

mediator · Apr 25, 2008

I thought, taking up an issue in search for answers is in itself an "exploration". I, at the time of hitting reply button, forgot we have a contortionist amongst us. Mea Culpa.

I agree. I wonder why people make expert comments which do not conform to facts and reality. What a philosophy.

Neways yes its an 'exploration".... an ongoing one (which needs more time before jumping to conclusion) rather than an "already had" one.

As with the media report, i don't even see a parallel. My quote can be verified, cause i have provided a link to the original, while a media report can't be verified by an ordinary person, because there is no means to do so. Buddy, you got to work more on your analogies.

And I don't understand, why those self-proclaimed experts joke that much. "Verified"?

.
FYI, doctors themselves cleared out the news given by the misleading media. U shud understand that no reputed or high self-esteemed doctor wants to be a subject of mindless and misleading discussion.

Let me say this again. I still don't know what hypnosis is "in general". I know of stage/ spiritual (sic)/ clinical ones. The first two links actually talk of clinical one. Not stage, not spiritual. Like some kids who are unnecessarily elated by the mention of the word "candy", some of us get equally elated and start thumping our chests, by the mention of "spirituality", "hypnosis" or "meditation". That, these words may have different connotations as well, is something beyond their grasp.

Yes the pdf is interesting. But only if you had read my post completely you would have known my opinion on the findings.

As with amusing you....NAAAAH, you are not that important and i have better things to do. But, if you are still getting amused, well, good for you.

Regarding spirituality, Daniel Denett had this to say in his BREAKING THE SPELL.

....let me try to put better words in their mouths. What these people have realized is one of the best secrets of life: let your self go. If you can approach the world's complexities, both its glories and its horrors, with an attitude of humble curiosity, acknowledging that however deeply you have seen, you have only just scratched the surface, you will find worlds within worlds, beauties you could not heretofore imagine, and your own mundane preoccupations will shrink to proper size, not all that important in the greater scheme of things. Keeping that awestruck vision of the world ready to hand while dealing with the demands of daily living is no easy exercise, but it is definitely worth the effort, for if you can stay centered, and engaged, you will find the hard choices easier, the right words will come to you when you need them, and you will indeed be a better person. That, I propose, is the secret to spirituality, and it has nothing at all to do with believing in an immortal soul, or in anything supernatural.

Click to expand...

Ur opinion is nuthing but a misleading joke. BTW, I don't understand what makes u base ur opinions on that of others......loss of independent outlook? Oh wait, I will follow those who are known to be scientific as the only thing I have done is......."follow".

So thats what I asked u before and thats what I ask u now. Let the facts prevail. Until then please don't troll with statements like "this case has already been explored" and few childish philosphies...

P.S : Lets not make it into a FIGHT CLUB or else, the mods can move it into that prestigious section.

karnivore · Apr 26, 2008

..(which needs more time before jumping to conclusion) rather than an "already had" one.

Who is denying that. And who is saying that the conclusion is final. Thats why Dr. Novella called those, "hypothesis" and provided 5 (not 1) of those. I mentioned "already explored", because, he has already looked into the matter "on the basis of the news article". Is English such a difficult language for one to understand ?

And I don't understand, why those self-proclaimed experts joke that much. "Verified"?

Sorry. You have dipped your statement, so much into the sarcastic jelly, it has ended up being inscrutable. But it seems you can't make a distinction between something that can be verified for authenticity and something which can't be so done.

However, couldn't help but notice an irony. You can see through the shenanigans of media making false claim about the needle inside a patient, you can understand their attempt to sensationalize something mundane or false but, at the same time, fail to see the attempt of the same media to sensationalize "hypno-anesthesia". Is it because, hypnotism "in general" is one of your sacred pets.

Ur opinion is nuthing but a misleading joke

The "joke" part i understand. That is your opinion and you are entitled to make plenty of it. But, the "misleading" part i don't. Which part of my which opinion is misleading ?

BTW, I don't understand what makes u base ur opinions on that of others......loss of independent outlook? Oh wait, I will follow those who are known to be scientific as the only thing I have done is......."follow".

Let me make a wild guess. No, 2 guesses. OK.

Guess #1: Immediately when you were conceived you acquired, by some magical, or "spiritual" means, all the knowledge of the world. History, geography, physics, chemistry, maths, spirituality, hypnosis, meditation, neuroscience and everything else were hardwired into your brain. So when you were born you did not have to go to school, college, University and did not have to turn any page of any book and became an automatic leader.

Guess #2: Immediately when you were born, you went out on voyage of quest and in the process acquired first hand knowledge of the world. History, geography, physics, chemistry, maths, spirituality, hypnosis, meditation, neuroscience and everything else were discovered/ invented/ experienced by you. So when you returned back you did not have go to school, college, University and did not have to turn any page of any book and became an automatic leader.

Now, you tell me which of my guesses is correct. I am more inclined to go with #2.

HAIL MY LEADER.
(Hmmm...in all your post you give one or more links to some sites, that you feel will substantiate your point of view. I guess, thats NOT basing one's "opinions on that of others" and IS a perfect example of "independent outlook".)

Let the facts prevail..... few childish philosphies...

Thats what i say too. Let the facts prevail. Not the tailor made, cut to convenience, fact. And all philosophies appear childish, if one is a child. Thanks of acknowledging that eventually.

mediator · Apr 26, 2008

Who is denying that. And who is saying that the conclusion is final. Thats why Dr. Novella called those, "hypothesis" and provided 5 (not 1) of those. I mentioned "already explored", because, he has already looked into the matter "on the basis of the news article". Is English such a difficult language for one to understand ?

U are surely amusing me after each n every post of urs.

Do u even understand the meaning of the following excerpt from the blog u linked? And then u talk about English....

Steven said:
I have e-mailed the hospital and I am trying to get contact information for Dr. Llewellyn-Clark so that I can fill in the missing details. If I do I will add an addendum to the post with the new information. Meanwhile, here are several possible hypotheses to explain this story.
.
.
.
To be clear - I am not accusing Mr. Lenkei or his surgeons of anything. I am simply laying out various hypotheses given the information available on this story. I would love to have the opportunity to test these hypotheses, by questioning Mr. Lenkei and/or his surgeon

Beating the drums of ur intellect and aptitude? "already explored"?

Good one for rejuvenating my mood today...and may be for a few days to come if u still want to beat the drums!

Is it because, hypnotism "in general" is one of your sacred pets.

Interesting. U shud really read the pdf. Even the folks u blindly follow and plagiarize 24*7 are "trying' to come to a conclusion "in favour" of it. So its not my 'sacred pet', but something that works! It seems u r having trouble to follow the herd u r part of.

The "joke" part i understand. That is your opinion and you are entitled to make plenty of it. But, the "misleading" part i don't. Which part of my which opinion is misleading ?

The disorder u r suffering from is called "Dysphasia/Aphasia".

Let me make a wild guess. No, 2 guesses. OK.

Guess #1: Immediately when you were conceived you acquired, by some magical, or "spiritual" means, all the knowledge of the world. History, geography, physics, chemistry, maths, spirituality, hypnosis, meditation, neuroscience and everything else were hardwired into your brain. So when you were born you did not have to go to school, college, University and did not have to turn any page of any book and became an automatic leader.

Guess #2: Immediately when you were born, you went out on voyage of quest and in the process acquired first hand knowledge of the world. History, geography, physics, chemistry, maths, spirituality, hypnosis, meditation, neuroscience and everything else were discovered/ invented/ experienced by you. So when you returned back you did not have go to school, college, University and did not have to turn any page of any book and became an automatic leader.

Now, you tell me which of my guesses is correct. I am more inclined to go with #2.

Well there can be a guess 3 which is in addition to 2 => u question everything that is taught and when u find confusions/limitations and contradictions to the definitions and explanations u were taught, u start ur "own" thinking process of what could be correct and what could be done!! BTW, leaders are not the ones who have just read what has already been there, but the ones who also "lead" the way for others through the dark passage using their own brains when everything else they have studied simply "fails"!!

(Hmmm...in all your post you give one or more links to some sites, that you feel will substantiate your point of view. I guess, thats NOT basing one's "opinions on that of others" and IS a perfect example of "independent outlook".)

If something seems correct to me, then ofcors I link the site instead of blandly quoting that author/Doctor/scientist A/B/C has to "opine" this and that without any "rational" elements in the victinity of that quote.

And all philosophies appear childish, if one is a child.

Is that ur new philosophy or again a "followed" one?

Neways it contradicts with ur guess #2. But again amusing! Repair urself and the stammered tone of ur intellect before its too late.

Mods : Move to Fight Club?

mediator · Apr 26, 2008

Now, what would one say, if one considers the facts, IN HAND, and arrives at a decision. Would it be safe to say that he has "already explored" the GIVEN FACTS, which in this case happens to be just a piece of news article.

No, he is still exploring and hence says he will update his blog soon when he gets the "missing details".

It is irrelevant, if he is waiting for some more information, which was NOT present in the news article. Question is did he CONSIDER the information PRESENT in the news article and subject it to thorough examination. If he has, then, for me, he has "already explored" the "case", the case being the incidence AS reported in the media. There you go. I don't think i can clarify it any better.

U shudn't have clarified ur irresponsible and misleading statements or even tried to from the beginning. U shud have just acknowledged that the action, exploration is still going on . It isn't so hard is it?

You have previously accused me of plagiarism, but i preferred not to respond. I took it as a kid's bla-bla. But now, i am convinced that this kid, either has a short circuit upstairs, or needs some serious help in how to look up a dictionary. Assuming, its the latter, let me help you with this, by quoting from Oxford Genie.
Quote:
plagiarize: (BrE also plagiarise) {speaker} verb (disapproving), to copy another person’s ideas, words or work and pretend that they are your own:
Now, make a wild guess, who is claiming to be "independent", having his "own thinking" while relentlessly parroting the same things/ ideas, which have been around loooong before he was even conceived, and then, to prove his point - hold your breath - linking to sites which "seems correct to" him. I wonder, who can that be?

Running out of ideas and statements for "on-topic" discussion? Don't troll dear, speak "on-topic".

Let me clarify my position on Hypnosis. I believe, and quite sincerely too, that hypnotism is nothing more than the "power of suggestion". There have been numerous experiments in that direction, and no experiment concludes with reasonable evidence, that it is not. There is absolutely nothing "spiritual" about it. And that is my point. That hypnosis does not work because of any "spiritual" driver. Just another trick that brain plays with people who are susceptible to suggestions.

U need not worry about the "spiritual" driver thing. Just follow ur herd and don't question....Best for u!!

Meanwhile read or let the people acknowledge what it is from the view point of scientists, practitioners or themselves. We really don't need expert opinions from a lad who himself lives in a narrow world where his soul task is "following" others with 99.99% of his brain going idle, who doesn't know or fickles on what "hynotism is", "spirituality" and can't even comprehend the articles he links!!

And i am still waiting to learn, how i have "mislead".

Still waiting even after reading the link u gave, eased by formatting I did and bringing out the statements in bold?

Toddlers shud learn how to walk first!!

Oh, BTW, thanks for the diagnosis. Errr....Doctor, what medicine shall i take. I suppose it would be, a teaspoon of "meditation" in a cup full of "spirituality", diluted and succussed to one part "knowledge" in 10 million parts "ignorance".

Ur wish. But if u r asking genuinely then may be this site can help u => Aphasia treatment

Now that you have successfully started to crawl on my nerves, (congratulations) am thinking, if it would be apt to say ADIOS. Well, lets just give it one last shot, to clarify myself (and funny thing is,that it has nothing to do with the topic in hand)

I never wanted that. :sad:

...but simply an open-minded discussion like a true scientist!!

But all I got was some stereotypical and mindless set of null arguments from someone who forgot to stay with his herd!! Dunno what annoys u that much. But u can medicate urself for that tooo!

Neways since ur disorder is getting worse and u r getting aggravated unnecessarily leading to simple trolls and repeatitions, lets stop here.

Faun · Apr 26, 2008

stop it guys, lol...get something else to do than aching ur fingers and eyes.

karnivore · Apr 26, 2008

OOOOPS Sorry i deleted my previous post. I did not know @mediator was answering. Terribly sorry. Maybe you could edit your post so i can reply. It won't take long to fill your post with inanities.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now that you have successfully started to pi$$ on my nerves (congratulations) am thinking, if it would be apt to say ADIOS. Well, lets just give it one last shot, to clarify myself (and funny thing is,that it has nothing to do with the topic in hand)

Now, what would one say, if one considers the facts, IN HAND, and arrives at a decision. Would it be safe to say that he has "already explored" the GIVEN FACTS, which in this case happens to be just a piece of news article. It is irrelevant, if he is waiting for some more information, which was NOT present in the news article. Question is did he CONSIDER the information PRESENT in the news article and subject it to thorough examination. If he has, then, for me, he has "already explored" the "case", the case being the incidence AS reported in the media. There you go. I don't think i can clarify it any better.

You have previously accused me of plagiarism, but i preferred not to respond. I took it as a kid's bla-bla. But now, i am convinced that this kid, either has a short circuit upstairs, or needs some serious help in how to look up a dictionary. Assuming, its the latter, let me help you with this, by quoting from Oxford Genie.

plagiarize: (BrE also plagiarise) {speaker} verb (disapproving), to copy another person’s ideas, words or work and pretend that they are your own:

Now, make a wild guess, who is claiming to be "independent", having his "own thinking" while relentlessly parroting the same things/ ideas, which have been around loooong before his great great grandfather was even conceived, and then, to prove his point - hold your breath - linking to sites which "seems correct to" him. I wonder, who can that be?

Let me deal with it in another way. You say that when you are confronted with contradictions, "u start ur own thinking process of what could be correct and what could be done". Setting aside the question, as to why this is perfectly valid for you and not so valid for others, lemme try and get a perspective.

You mean, that in contradictory situations, you, like all other rational person, switch one set of ideas for another. Perfectly all right for me. The question is, are the ideas, that you switch to, your own formulated ones. Or you simply subscribe to the ideas, that have been around, say for hundreds of years. If it is the former, then you are correct in saying, that these are results of your "own thinking". But if it is the later, then you are a <insert that word that starts with "H">.

So tell me, did you invent "spirituality" or did you discover "spiritual meditation" or did you theorize "quantum consciousness" or did you prove "homeopathy" (these are some of your sacred pets, as anybody who has had the misfortune of engaging in a debate with you will know). My wild guess is - NO. And in that, you are as much a "follower" and a "plagiarist" as i am, and actually, worse, <insert that word that starts with "H">.

To question commonly held believe systems or knowledge base, is a sign of a healthy brain, but attempting to answer the GAPs by means of "spirituality" or some other sky-fairy, which itself can't be defined without ambiguity, is pure intellectual laziness of the worst type. Why take the trouble to find the answers, when just about everything can be explained by means of a pixie. Now, that is quite an "independent" thought process.

Let me clarify my position on Hypnosis. I believe, and quite sincerely too, that hypnotism is nothing more than the "power of suggestion". There have been numerous experiments in that direction, and no experiment concludes with reasonable evidence, that it is not. There is absolutely nothing "spiritual" about it. And that is my point. That hypnosis does not work because of any "spiritual" driver. Just another trick that brain plays with people who are susceptible to suggestions.

And i am still waiting to learn, how i have "mislead".

Oh, BTW, thanks for the diagnosis. Errr....Doctor, what medicine shall i take. I suppose it would be, a teaspoon of "meditation" in a cup full of "spirituality", diluted and succussed to one part "knowledge" in 10 million parts "ignorance".

Anyway, nice bickering with you.

mediator · Apr 26, 2008

So tell me, did you invent "spirituality" or did you discover "spiritual meditation" or did you theorize "quantum consciousness" or did you prove "homeopathy" (these are some of your sacred pets, as anybody who has had the misfortune of engaging in a debate with you will know). My wild guess is - NO. And in that, you are as much a "follower" and a "plagiarist" as i am, and actually, worse, <insert that word that starts with "H">.

They r not to be invented but simply experienced. Like I said before, since simple scientific medicines didn't work they gave me homeopathic ones and indeed it worked marvels. Thats what led me to know more about homeopathy and its principles. Lets not digress.
Even when someone doesn't know what spirituality is by definition ofcors, it is quite possible that he might be experiencing it by his own will to know more about himself. That doesn't makes him a follower. So, get ur concepts straight first before uttering nonsense. Learn what spirituality is before giving us a full fledged show of ur remarkable intelligence and comprehension next time! Meanwhile u may read the following about 'scientists and spirituality'. It might help to clear the smog inside ur hollow upper shell.

*goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-4592093/Scientists-spirituality-surprises-Only-one.html
*www.physorg.com/news5785.html
*www.californiapsychics.com/articles/Features/64/Can_Yoga_Help_Cure_Cancer.aspx
*www.jewishworldreview.com/0108/religion_healing.php3

link1 said:
America's scientists are a surprisingly spiritual group, according to a survey in which almost 70 percent agreed "there are basic truths" in religion, and 68 percent classified themselves as a "spiritual person."

Overall, about a third said "I do not believe in God" in the analysis, which polled 1,646 scientists at 21 research universities across the nation

It seems there many people like me and many of em are scientists. But I still advise u to follow ur herd as it wud be good 4 u!

So first understand and experience what spirituality is.

hullap · Apr 26, 2008

STOP IT

karnivore · Apr 26, 2008

No matter how much i think, that i will not post again, i just get sucked right into it. UUUGGGHHH......here i go again.

They r not to be invented but simply experienced

There you go again. You are saying things, that are besides the point. The point, that i was making, is, are those ideas, your own. Whatever, "spirituality" is, and whether or not it is invented or experienced, did you think of the term "spirituality" (which BTW, means "of the spirits") to define those experiences. How did you know, what kind of experience/ feeling constitutes "spirituality". Let me tell you how. You know it because you have read it somewhere, or someone has told you that so and so feeling is "spirituality". Is taking a dump "spirituality" ? Is having orgasm "spirituality" ? (Mind you, particularly, in the last case, one looses one's sense of self, feels transcended to another dimension and feels an unworldly pleasure) If not, why ? Because, these feelings don't fall within the paradigm that you have been programmed to believe in. And thats following.

Again, let me ask, are those, which i mentioned in my previous post, the result of faculty of your brain or someone else's. If those ideas, whatever these attempt to explain, are not yours, then, by subscribing to those, you are simply following, much like me.

...since simple scientific medicines didn't work they gave me homeopathic ones and indeed it worked marvels. Thats what led me to know more about homeopathy and its principles.

Don't we all do the same thing. Something works for someone, on some level and then one goes out to find more about it. And if it satisfies one's rationale or reason, one holds it sacred to heart. Whats wrong in it. Now that you stick to homeopathy, it definitely makes you its follower, as much as i am a follower of modern medicine.

Even when someone doesn't know what spirituality is by definition ofcors, it is quite possible that he might be experiencing it by his own will to know more about himself. That doesn't makes him a follower

I have already discussed this above. I will just make an addendum. Experience is a personal and highly subjective matter. One, snorting psychedelic drugs, may have a "transcending" experience. If we are talking of "experience" itself, and since both result in "transcending" experiences, please, logically, differentiate between "spirituality" and psychedelic drug. Before suggesting others what to do and learn, may be you should do it before hand, preferably not from dime-a-dozen web sites with commercial agenda.

Believing in something, only on the basis of "experience", which is similar to schizophrenic hallucination, with no logical explanation to support that experience, is nothing but faith and faith, again, is nothing but following something blindly.

And don't you think that one's own "will to know more about himself" can be better and more aesthetically satisfied by reading Biology.

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it - even if I have said it - unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." ~Buddha

Rest of the post is just plain bla-bla. So excuse me if i do not respond.

So, there now. Figure out if the dish is made of china or ceramic - never mind the cuisine.

mediator · Apr 27, 2008

Whatever, "spirituality" is, and whether or not it is invented or experienced, did you think of the term "spirituality" (which BTW, means "of the spirits") to define those experiences.

I am sure u looked at the definition from wiki again, but did u try to know what that "spirit" is? Its not related to ghosts etc!

Lets see if u can still tell what "spirtuality is" in ur next post!

How did you know, what kind of experience/ feeling constitutes "spirituality". Let me tell you how. You know it because you have read it somewhere, or someone has told you that so and so feeling is "spirituality".

U r wrong again! I never started to know about spirituality "after" reading about it! Have it ever occured to u that yoga can also be spiritual? I am simply close to my roots unlike others who like to abuse his own roots all the time. Thats it!

In Hindi its called "Dhobi ka kutta na ghar ka na ghaat ka"!! Its a proverb not an abuse like many illiterates think. Please tell if u don't understand it.

And thats how u learn what u r doing, in detail! Just a child who learns to talk and later understands what he is doing is called "talking" and how gets to another place via footstep is called "walking"! Did u learn the definition of walking before walking or the definition of stooling/urinating before stooling/urinating? I hope not! Like me, many learn when they witness something remarkable and find its practical importance to enhance its use in their daily life! So be real, its not always theory first and practical later.

Is taking a dump "spirituality" ? Is having orgasm "spirituality" ? (Mind you, particularly, in the last case, one looses one's sense of self, feels transcended to another dimension and feels an unworldly pleasure) If not, why ? Because, these feelings don't fall within the paradigm that you have been programmed to believe in. And thats following.

No wonder u can talk at ur low level of deteriorated/null intellect.

I feel embrassed now to be even talking to u.

Besides dump,orgasm etc are not unwordly but worldy/materialistic pleasures! Get ur concepts straight first. It seems as if u r rebuking a subject without even knowing about it. How absurd!

Don't we all do the same thing. Something works for someone, on some level and then one goes out to find more about it. And if it satisfies one's rationale or reason, one holds it sacred to heart. Whats wrong in it. Now that you stick to homeopathy, it definitely makes you its follower, as much as i am a follower of modern medicine.

I agree on the bolded part, but u need to ponder over the italiced part. Even though I have vowed to find more about the things that work, it doesn't recedes me from the stuff I already know. I don't rebuke "all" scientific stuff, neither I rebuke "homeopathy","hypnotism" etc just becoz the scientists are still discussing over it! So I don't hold any subject "sacred" to my heart and thats what being scientific is all about i.e open to all cases and ground reality! But u my friend on other hand with ur low level of terminology and statements and open rebukes over the subjects u don't even know about have shown how much "scientific" u r! Even the scientists are not rebuking homeopathy, hypnotism and spirituality. And thats how a member of the herd gets mocked when he doesn't keep up with the pace and space!

If we are talking of "experience" itself, and since both result in "transcending" experiences, please, logically, differentiate between "spirituality" and psychedelic drug. Before suggesting others what to do and learn, may be you should do it before hand, preferably not from dime-a-dozen web sites with commercial agenda.

No offence but u r simply asking like a child now and showing as of how much "well read" u r. Do I even need to talk on the difference? U r making me feel like as if I am teaching u the alphabet in the midst of a discussion!

Believing in something, only on the basis of "experience", which is similar to schizophrenic hallucination, with no logical explanation to support that experience, is nothing but faith and faith, again, is nothing but following something blindly.

That wud make the leaders of ur herd which obviously u don't know much about, the same i.e schizophrenic? What does that make of u?

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it - even if I have said it - unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." ~Buddha

Understand what u quoted as it will help u to reduce plagiarizing the "opinions" of others!

Rest of the post is just plain bla-bla. So excuse me if i do not respond.

So, there now. Figure out if the dish is made of china or ceramic - never mind the cuisine.

Hehe, rest of my post if simply facts and researches...no wonder u can't respond and that it is all "bla bla bla " to u. May be I shud have "plagiarized opinions"! Let me quote em if u dont get em.

America's scientists are a surprisingly spiritual group, according to a survey in which almost 70 percent agreed "there are basic truths" in religion, and 68 percent classified themselves as a "spiritual person."

Overall, about a third said "I do not believe in God" in the analysis, which polled 1,646 scientists at 21 research universities across the nation.

The findings mirror a similar study of physicians released by the University of Chicago last...

*goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-4592093/Scientists-spirituality-surprises-Only-one.html

merican and Indian scientists may be adding yoga to the list of options currently available to aid in the treatment of breast cancer, according to a recent edition of the Science & Theology News. Yoga as a form of complementary alternative medicine has been used in conjunction with traditional Western medicine for years. However, the recently announced partnership of American and Indian scientists to test its effectiveness with breast cancer is something new.

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