Debates about the Economy, Politics, Religion, and everything under the sun

[whitestar_999]

absurd ideas which will do nothing except making it more clear to investors that current govt has no serious intentions of improving economy.rupee fall will continue with some minor improvements in between until the formation of next govt.after that it will depend on whose govt comes to power & how.

 

[Flash]

I think that reservation is fine, but only on economic basis. A poor person of a higher caste is deserves as much as a poor person of a lower caste.

when it comes to social status/problems faced:
poor SC/ST(not OBC)<<<<<<poor general/higher caste
in many parts of India(including UP/haryana/TN just to give the extent of the problem) a poor SC/ST can get killed for even daring to talk back or just speak with girls from general caste but you won't find nothing even close to such situations for poor general category persons except in extremely rare cases.

Adding to this..
Still there's untouchability exists in rural villages of TN, which affect lower caste people deeply.

- Lower caste people are not allowed to walk in certain streets, where higher caste lives.
- There will be 2 glasses (Glass and aluminium) in every tea shop of some villages. Lower caste should drink in Aluminium sitting in the ground, whereas Glass is for higher caste.
- Still higher caste people (maybe a poor) wash the place (in home mostly) with water, where lower caste person (maybe in a high position) sat.

Even, there are 2 graveyards in some villages, one (will be within the village) for higher caste and normal people and one for lower caste.
When it comes to untouchability, people other than lower caste (all) form a group and lower caste will form another group..

 

[theterminator]

when it comes to social status/problems faced:
poor SC/ST(not OBC)<<<<<<poor general/higher caste
in many parts of India(including UP/haryana/TN just to give the extent of the problem) a poor SC/ST can get killed for even daring to talk back or just speak with girls from general caste but you won't find nothing even close to such situations for poor general category persons except in extremely rare cases.

Adding to this..
Still there's untouchability exists in rural villages of TN, which affect lower caste people deeply.

- Lower caste people are not allowed to walk in certain streets, where higher caste lives.
- There will be 2 glasses (Glass and aluminium) in every tea shop of some villages. Lower caste should drink in Aluminium sitting in the ground, whereas Glass is for higher caste.
- Still higher caste people (maybe a poor) wash the place (in home mostly) with water, where lower caste person (maybe in a high position) sat.

Even, there are 2 graveyards in some villages, one (will be within the village) for higher caste and normal people and one for lower caste.
When it comes to untouchability, people other than lower caste (all) form a group and lower caste will form another group..

does this make whole of general category people culpable? like you will say for them that they are suffering only because of their identity...i can say the same about me, but i am not against their reservation .... what do you have to say about OBC ? my main concern is about them, they're the chaurasia's, gupta's, jaiswal's, yadavs, etc......many are financially affluent but still benefit from reservation, they don't undergo the trauma that lowest caste people go...

Heard this in news, they said the reason for this is, they found fuel consumption is high during night what??? really!!

where i fill, it opens at 7am.. so no surprises for me

 

[heidi2521]

@whitestar @gearbox: It is true that ST/SC face problems other than economic hardship but that is not going to be resolved by reservation. People who want to discriminate will discriminate no matter what his position (In fact I wouldn't be surprised if people who got in due to quotas and not due to merit are looked at with contempt). We need better enforcement of anti-discrimination laws and prolonged education campaigns to make people understand that as humans no one is superior or inferior based on their birthright.

I don't think that bigoted idiots will start respecting SC/STs just because he got into an IIT, especially if he took the easy way in.

 

[shreymittal]

Petrol and Diesel prices gonna get a hike again...ONCE AGAIN

 

[KyleSforza]

@Mediater

I only have one question. Do you work for Modi? Cause boy those are some looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong boring posts.

 

[avinandan012]

@whitestar @gearbox: It is true that ST/SC face problems other than economic hardship but that is not going to be resolved by reservation. People who want to discriminate will discriminate no matter what his position (In fact I wouldn't be surprised if people who got in due to quotas and not due to merit are looked at with contempt). We need better enforcement of anti-discrimination laws and prolonged education campaigns to make people understand that as humans no one is superior or inferior based on their birthright.

I don't think that bigoted idiots will start respecting SC/STs just because he got into an IIT, especially if he took the easy way in.

Those who are in favour of SC/STs in IITs through quota just look at the drop out rate.

Then again I hate the IIT system govt. spends crores each year to fund IITs these graduates then goes to US & settles there which ultimately promote US.
So basically tax payer money is being used to support US economy. Just look at the numbers of owners/VPs of Silicon Valey companies.

 

[whitestar_999]

@theterminator,i am totally against OBC reservation except for poor OBC which currently isn't the case because creamy layer OBC limit is still high not to mention people with no regular/typical job but earning high can still successfully get non-creamy layer certificate despite earning good income from other sources.

@dead5,what you said holds true for an ideal world but sadly we don't live in an ideal world.in this world power commands respect(whether intentional or forced) & in india that means a govt job(preferably govt services) which in turn depends majorly on education background(& IIT is the best here).if someone from SC/ST in a small village/area clears UPSC civil services & becomes an IAS/IPS/IRS then an average general caste person will think twice before insulting a SC/ST like he did before.such people won't respect you even if SC/ST person cleared exam without reservation.if you don't know there was a case some years back where general caste judge of a high court actually ordered washing of the entire office because the person before him was a SC/ST.

@avinandan012,what dropout rate are you talking about?some years ago IIT Delhi decided to throw out 11 SC/ST students for poor academic performance & after fighting court cases in HC/SC most of them were taken back because court find merit in their claim that they are being unfairly treated.note this is the decision of SC judges none of whom was SC/ST & just so you know there is no reservation in HC/SC judges.as for pressure obviously for reasons stated above SC/ST are already under great pressure because of the double whammy of reservation(as noted by courts in IIT-D case) as well as carrying the burden of entire family & their local area community expectations which may result in poor performance.
as for IITians leaving for USA what's wrong in that.would you rather prefer that a brilliant IITian spend his life in India doing some govt job/managerial post earning lakhs per month or go to USA & start a company which eventually creates next gen tech/software service benefiting entire humanity?

 

[mediator]

@Mediater

I only have one question. Do you work for Modi? Cause boy those are some looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong boring posts.

The moment a person starts personalising and discusses the people in the discussion rather the subject or the essence of the debate, it leads to the demise of a fruitful discussion. This is something we see in "Science Vs God" debate often which has reincarnated for some 1000 times where people rather discussing are often engaged in tagging others as theist, atheist, agnostic etc or whatever fancy tags they know of to suit their conditioned minds and hence analyze the discussion from their limited framework unable to transcend the limitation of words, mind, names etc and to add, debate by giving the certificates and testimonials of other people rather than understanding the concept or subject through their own primary understanding and giving it the same thought process and time they give to other studies. Yet they call themselves 'scientific'.

My questions to Rhitwick are not limited to him and I have seen enough teenagers who jump into the debate randomly trying to sound all cool, but all they have to say is "your posts are too long/you are communal/you are XYZ etc" on the similar lines of Digvijay's little speeches and Amul Baby's royal jibber jabber. But thank you for such an intellectually stirring reply!

It would have been an honor had I worked for Modi and I hope this reply wasn't too long for your royal taste.

 

[rhitwick]

I'll come back here when discussion related to reservation dies down.

b/w in my office I met one Gujrati (Bong by birth but 30+ yrs stay in Gujrat). He claimed to have worked under NaMo and he told me what NaMo did to Muslims at that time(riot) was right!

I hope Mediator too does not think in the same line.

 

[amjath]

I'll come back here when discussion related to reservation dies down.

b/w in my office I met one Gujrati (Bong by birth but 30+ yrs stay in Gujrat). He claimed to have worked under NaMo and he told me what NaMo did to Muslims at that time(riot) was right!

I hope Mediator too does not think in the same line.

What is he, extremist???

 

[mediator]

@rhitwick:
I have heard from many "hindus", that what Congress did to "Sikhs" in 1984 was right as Sikhs in punjab were becoming a nuisance and were brutally killing Hindus. I disagree. The only difference between what you and I state is that COngress has been found guilty in 1984 (a state sponsored genocide) and Modi not in 2002 (a riot). The similarity here is that many Hindus were angered by the acts of extremist Sikhs in Punjab who stopped buses, categorized people based on 'religion' and then killed 'Hindus'. There was an uproar for Khalistan as well. Similarly, many Hindus were angered when a railways (Sabarmati express) carrying 58 karsevaks, 48 of whom were women and were burnt alive. Naturally, sentiments and anger is going to prevail.

But instead of action of what happened, the so called intellectuals in this forum have a habit to focus only on the reactions, unable to discuss the former at length and narrow it only to "what my friend said/what this Gujarat said". Alas, there is a cry to dissolve 'religion' by such intellectuals, but somewhere deep down their subconscious, they are still conditioned by the divisions based on religion and therefore unable to discuss the actions, or the past where India was plundered creativity (temples, idols, paintings) and science destroyed and raped based on 'religion'.

A goat/buffalo is neither Hindu or Muslim, but just to appease some God who divides the humanity between us and them(believers and non-believers), it is killed en masse. I certainly hope Rhitwick thinks on the same line and discusses this amongst his secular and liberal friends, esp. amongst muslims and let benevolence towards animals prevail.

Congress against ban on cow slaughter in Karnataka - Times Of India

So you met one Gujarati.....
I guess its a high time you take part in discussion in Madrassas and 'peaceful lectures of Zakir Naik' and share a story on by saying "I met one...."!

*www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jYUL7eBdHg

 

[snap]

well if you are talking about the sacrificing of animals in islam "The meat from the sacrificed animal is divided into three parts. The family retains one third of the share; another third is given to relatives, friends and neighbors; and the other third is given to the poor and needy" if the animal is being wasted then it would have been a problem.

 

[whitestar_999]

@rhitwick,innocent until proven guilty is a basic principle of justice system even if morally/ethically ambiguous.until Modi is proven guilty by HC & upheld by SC there is no reason to hold gujarat riots against him like some mortal sin but simply a case of administrative failure among a series of administrative success.

@mediator,India is not Gujarat.like they say a real swimmer is one who swims against river flow.Gujarat historically has a vibrant business community(as reflected in typical gujarati businessman stereotype in tv/movies) & relatively more rational society compared to say UP & Bihar.just because Modi has a mostly good governance record in Gujarat does not necessarily mean he can replicate this in entire India.personality & policies of Modi are better suited for a homogeneous & mostly rational society(like many european countries).

 

[mediator]

@Snap - So you found greatness in killing of an animal for religious appeasement. I'm not surprised and I'm sure those who take pride in calling themselves as intellectuals and secularists would ignore it. My question is who gave you the right to kill others parents/brothers/sisters etc? Why don't you kill your own parents etc and divide the flesh as per your "logic".

Do you know the history of Bakr-Id? Lets take this reasoning a little beyond. I'm not sure if you can answer it! Please read and save me the trouble for quoting it down here.

Eid Mubarak!

Modi has a mostly good governance record in Gujarat does not necessarily mean he can replicate this in entire India

Who knows? Why not give him a chance? Why are the intellectuals and secularists now reduced to a minority still want a good for nothing, extempore, academic and IQ fail Amul Baby who doesn't even have a village administrative experience?

I guess its a good thing that Modi is being discussed. Its a free publicity by the critics only.

 

[snap]

if one person is non veg and he shares the meat of the animal with poor people is something wrong in this?

 

[mediator]

@Snap - You have my heart out for you and for your innocent questions. Please read the link for your questions have already been answered there and hence I requested 'save me the trouble for quoting it down here'.

Link -> Eid Mubarak!

 

[snap]

this is becoming veg vs non veg debate

 

[rhitwick]

@rhitwick:
I have heard from many "hindus", that what Congress did to "Sikhs" in 1984 was right as Sikhs in punjab were becoming a nuisance and were brutally killing Hindus. I disagree. The only difference between what you and I state is that COngress has been found guilty in 1984 (a state sponsored genocide) and Modi not in 2002 (a riot). The similarity here is that many Hindus were angered by the acts of extremist Sikhs in Punjab who stopped buses, categorized people based on 'religion' and then killed 'Hindus'. There was an uproar for Khalistan as well. Similarly, many Hindus were angered when a railways (Sabarmati express) carrying 58 karsevaks, 48 of whom were women and were burnt alive. Naturally, sentiments and anger is going to prevail.

But instead of action of what happened, the so called intellectuals in this forum have a habit to focus only on the reactions, unable to discuss the former at length and narrow it only to "what my friend said/what this Gujarat said". Alas, there is a cry to dissolve 'religion' by such intellectuals, but somewhere deep down their subconscious, they are still conditioned by the divisions based on religion and therefore unable to discuss the actions, or the past where India was plundered creativity (temples, idols, paintings) and science destroyed and raped based on 'religion'.

A goat/buffalo is neither Hindu or Muslim, but just to appease some God who divides the humanity between us and them(believers and non-believers), it is killed en masse. I certainly hope Rhitwick thinks on the same line and discusses this amongst his secular and liberal friends, esp. amongst muslims and let benevolence towards animals prevail.

Congress against ban on cow slaughter in Karnataka - Times Of India

You've intelligently avoided the question I raised. Do you support what the "one gujrati" innocently told me?
A wrong is just plain wrong irrespective of whoever does that. Modi is still help responsible for that incident. And, and somehow few inhabitants of Gujrat also believe that the allegation might be true. An, unfortunately they take pride on it.
Don't try to justify by quoting what congress did in 80's we're not discussing PM candidate for 80's here.

Congress sure have few clean candidates here; BJP could have had Nitish Kumar, L.K. Advani or anyone else but they chose Modi just because of the hype around him, nothing else.
And, as already discussed not all BJP teams or allies still convinced about Modi.

So you met one Gujarati.....
I guess its a high time you take part in discussion in Madrassas and 'peaceful lectures of Zakir Naik' and share a story on by saying "I met one...."!

Non-Muslims will not have equal Humanrights - Zakir Naik - YouTube

I know about this man. My ex-roommate was a muslim and he recommended me to watch his shows on TV (those Urdu channels we skip always you remember?!)
So, few time I've watched him talk and I had debated with my room-mate whenever or wherever I felt his talks are not matching my vision of right or wrong.

Again, there is no point in discussing "ours and theirs". Know one thing...neither they nor us are innocent.

@Mediator, b/w about your post on Bakra-id, that link is of a blog where the poster is definitely a hater of Islamic religion. He first starts bashing Zakir-Naik" out of the blue and then starts speculating why this and that.
Why not take reference of a muslim site where the story is told from the other side too.

And, if you point to them slaughtering cows/camels/goats they too can point to many rituals of ours where we slaughter goats to please certain Gods.

Again none of us are innocent dude, none. If you look closely we both are standing at same level.

 

[mediator]

@Rhitwick -

I'm glad you are again quoting me directly unlike the admin of this forum who comments from the corner and behind the walls like Amul Baby, with a troll record of 24x7 over 365 days.

You've intelligently avoided the question I raised. Do you support what the "one gujrati" innocently told me?

I'm against it. I'm against killing of muslims just because they are tagged as muslims. But I'm against the doctrines of Quran as well!

I hope that makes it clear. I'm only against the doctrines of abrahamic religions. Seldom you'd find me saying any word against Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism, COnfuicianism, Taoism, Rhitwickism ---- But I'm against state of reduction of these sciences tagged with an "ism" i.e their ism-ness. I'm against any doctrine that divides between us and them, promotes something sordid as 72 virgins in harems and judgement day. I'm against blind belief and attachment to science and Veda for attachment creates delusions and inability to question the subject of attachment.

Should I post verses from Veda against such attachment, and Gita where it forbids attachment to even Veda?

Why not take reference of a muslim site where the story is told from the other side too.

You really think I haven't seen them all? The logic from a mindset that resembles the likes of Zakir Naik flooding those sites? Perhaps, you can give me a logic on why to kill an animal and not your own parents "to distribute food etc".

@Snap, rightly pointed out that it will become Veg Vs Non-Veg debate. I can flood with logic, facts, modern researches and certificate and testimonials of the "modern scientists" you often seek!

@Mediator, b/w about your post on Bakra-id, that link is of a blog where the poster is definitely a hater of Islamic religion.

Another instance where you without reading the substance ended it by tagging the blog poster. Should I dismiss Quran by tagging it as kafir, jews, christian etc hater? Learn to read without tagging!

Please post at what all places the blog poster hated the "Islamic religion"? So if millions of goats will be killed on one particular day for some "XYZ reasons" Rhitwick will come and justify or ignore, but when someone will protest it out of kindness for animals and their pain, the same Rhitwick will call him "hater of Islamic religion"?

And, if you point to them slaughtering cows/camels/goats they too can point to many rituals of ours where we slaughter goats to please certain Gods.

I'm stricly against it, such ignorance of the priests! But seems you are again not trying to find the truth of the matter yourself but stuck to what I or they have to say! Here is homework you need to do. Read as many version of Quran as possible and then provide me verses for the ones I post which would say anything different. T


You seem to have a soft heart for Islam, whereby you connive, ignore or justify it on the top of distorting or giving false practices under the banner of "Hinduism" as truth, a general approach of modern secularists who insult and criticize the science of their own motherland without even understanding it and promote the acts of invaders, ignore their evil practices and if someone question them up, shut him down by simply tagging him as "anti-.....","communal" etc?

I really don't care what people think of such practices like I said. There are two things
1. Act of people
2. What the scriptures teach

In case of Islam, teachings of the book synchronize with the act of people i.e terrorism in the name of Allah, demand for Sharia wherever muslims start getting in numbers (France, US, UK, India....what not?), demand for a separate law, killing of kafirs, jews and christians, 72 virgins in harem, judgment day, division of the society between us and them (believers and non-believers) etc goes by the teaching of Quran. If you have any other story for these doctrines do bring them forward after deeply understanding them for you might face my questions afterwards. Yes, I have debated for long without any success to the benefit of doubt I had reserved.

Like I stated and have been doing this since time immemorial, the basic foundation of science of consciousness is detachment from your own and borrowed beliefs and questioning extensively and instensively the very science you pursue. It is poles apart and contrary to a mindset which says "My religion is the best".

"La Ilaha Il Alaha Mohammed ur rasool Allah" promotes attachment to a name and a doctrine of his prophet. Like I asked, can you really question the life of Mohammed and question Allah?

Again none of us are innocent dude, none. If you look closely we both are standing at same level.

I'm not bothered about a ego clash, level or a standing, but simple sharing of information that we call as discussion. Please learn to take humour and light hearted comments without analyzing it too much.

Anyways, we were on a BJP Vs Congress or Modi or Not or "Indian economy goin down debate" hadn't it been your story over "I met a gujarati". You may continue from my post #87 and #89.

PS - The above bold is a light hearted statement. This has been notified so that you don't analyze and give lectures on a stand, innocence, levels etc.