BJP vs Congress !!

[karnivore]

... he s pretty well informed actually

I am sure he is. I don’t think I doubted that. But being “well informed” is one thing, and understanding that information is another.

unfortunately that view is carried , not only by Anorion but also by many historians in general

Names of such historians will be appreciated. Oh btw, I don’t belong to that school of apologists who find it difficult to believe that communism is good in theory, bad in practice.

Fragmentation especially between China and the soviet Union ( or rather by Mao ze Dong and Khrushchev ) was a major reason for the wane of communism .

What you are essentially saying is that, the reason behind the happy demise of the theory is, because, two grown up men disagreed on how to practice their individual interpretation of the theory, rather than the myriad limitations and contradictions within their own interpretation of the theory, or for that matter, within the original works of Marx.

Again, don’t belong to that school.

China once allied to the soviet Union was actively trying to take soviet union's place as the ideological leader of the communist block . By actively promoting Maoism and supplanting the (according to Mao) "revisionist view of Communism" propagated by Khrushchev led USSR .

There is no denying the fact that communism in the 50s and early 60s found a poster boy in Mao, but by the end of 60s Mao himself was sidelined in his own country, thanks to Cultural revolution which resulted in massive drought in 1969.

Mao, however, never actively tried to be the new messiah on the block, as Stalin had tried. The post-Mao revolutions are testimony to the fact. Vietnam, lead by Ho Chi Minh, was modeled on Russian communism. Cuba, led by Fiedel Castro and Che Guavara, although started out as socialist movements, ultimately ended up following the Vietnam route which was largely based on Russian version of communism (collectivization etc). Even when Che decided that revolution was an exportable commodity and can be successfully exported to Bolivia, he chose the same Vietnam tactics. (His diary is testimony to that). The entire Easter Europe and some south European countries, notably Italy, by and large, subscribed to the Russian system.

Chinese, influence was mostly restricted within the south eastern regions like Cambodia (Pol Pot) etc. and India and some parts of Latin America (Large part of Latin America, e.g. Argentina, Brazil, Venezuela were, however influenced by Fiedel and Che’s antics).

The reasons were manifold. Least of which was that Russian communism was based on a pre-existing economic structure, however fragile, while Chinese was based on practically non existent one, thanks to Chian Kai Shek. While, Russians had to figure out how to keep the existing infrastructure going and build on it, the Chinese had to build their system right from the scratch. Chinese social structure was also very different from the Russian, being an European country, and some wise guys in India felt, came close to that of India’s.

The point is, that the Russians and the Chinese adapted communism that best suit their own situation.

Wrong ! ..... Sino-Soviet split reflected in Indian circles too especially in West Bengal ...... As you are well aware , Naxalites are Maoists

Nakshalbari movement was a local movement which caught the fancy of Mr Charu Mazumdar, who thought that it provided him with perfect ingredients for his lab test. Later on it caught the fancy of some really, otherwise genius men in Kolkata, resulting in the turbulent 70s. This finally spilled over to the other parts of India. Calling this local movement turned semi mass movement, a fall out of Sino-Soviet split is really ingenious. The Sino-Soviet split had taken place long before the Naxabari movement. In fact, Mao started to drift from the Soviet ideals, even before the long march. Mr Mazumdar was one of those wise guys who thought, Chinese situation fit the Indian case suitably. Hence his experimentation.

If anything, Naxabari was the result of the success of Mao’s Long March and propaganda, which put a lot of brilliant minds in la-la land. The so called split, had next to nothing to do with it, unless you are ascribing the success of Long March to the so called split.

You will understand that only when you realize that , one of the major ideals of Maoism is "the violent showdown with capitalists" .... so it encourages violence like that followed by Naxalites

while revisionists held that "communism could co-exist with capitalism" which is unacceptable to Maoists ....

thats the difference

Tell me something new.

So, to summarize your post…you are saying…what exactly?

 

[Phantom Lancer]

Names of such historians will be appreciated. Oh btw, I don’t belong to that school of apologists who find it difficult to believe that communism is good in theory, bad in practice.

FYI i think communism is neither good in theory nor practice .....

What you are essentially saying is that, the reason behind the happy demise of the theory is, because, two grown up men disagreed on how to practice their individual interpretation of the theory, rather than the myriad limitations and contradictions within their own interpretation of the theory, or for that matter, within the original works of Marx.

->Now now .....you r contradicting yourself here .... we are talking about the wane of communism not its demise

->lol it was 2 grown men Marx and Lennin who bought out the Marxism-Leninism line of commi thinking

->Maoism was one of the major factors if not the only factor for the sino-soviet split
....
Result of the sino soviet split

->Russia sided with India ( a non commi state) during the Indo China war
-> China for the first time sided with the US
->It spawned wars in Africa and Middle east
->spawned Naxalism in India

Soviet documents from the summer of 1969 show that the USSR had more detailed plans for a nuclear attack on China than for a nuclear attack on the United States
Mao decided that since the Soviets were the greater threat because of their geographical proximity to China, he should seek an accommodation with the United States to confront the USSR.-wiki

now thats some series side effects ....... this infighting was enough to make the communist bloc crumble .......

There is no denying the fact that communism in the 50s and early 60s found a poster boy in Mao, but by the end of 60s Mao himself was sidelined in his own country, thanks to Cultural revolution which resulted in massive drought in 1969.

The Sino-Soviet Split resulted in divisions amongst communist parties around the world.Effectively, the CPC under Mao's leadership became the rallying forces of a parallel international Communist tendency .Another variant of anti-revisionist Marxism-Leninism (Hoxaism) appeared after the ideological row between the Communist Party of China and the Party of Labour of Albania in 1978
-courtesy wikipedia

Mao, however, never actively tried to be the new messiah on the block, as Stalin had tried. The post-Mao revolutions are testimony to the fact.

thats a joke

As the Sino-Soviet Split in the international Communist movement turned toward open hostility, China portrayed itself as a leader of the underdeveloped world against the two superpowers, the United States and the Soviet Union.
By the early 1960s, the Sino-Soviet split was a permanently established fact, cracking the bipolar system with which the Cold War began as China now saw itself competing with the Soviet Union for leadership in the Communist movement.Stalin's death in 1953 left a vacuum of power in the Communist world. Mao clearly realized that the leader of a group of countries is not a person but a country-Wikipedia

Vietnam, lead by Ho Chi Minh, was modeled on Russian communism. Cuba, led by Fiedel Castro and Che Guavara, although started out as socialist movements, ultimately ended up following the Vietnam route which was largely based on Russian version of communism (collectivization etc). Even when Che decided that revolution was an exportable commodity and can be successfully exported to Bolivia, he chose the same Vietnam tactics. (His diary is testimony to that). The entire Easter Europe and some south European countries, notably Italy, by and large, subscribed to the Russian system.

i never side otherwise ..... but by no means does that dilute the effects Maoism had on Communism . But you seem to be basing your thoughts on communism on 2 or 3 grown men like Che ????

Chinese, influence was mostly restricted within the south eastern regions like Cambodia (Pol Pot) etc. and India and some parts of Latin America (Large part of Latin America, e.g. Argentina, Brazil, Venezuela were, however influenced by Fiedel and Che’s antics).

Dont forget the all important Middle East ...... At that time (read before the fall of USSR) , these (Africa Middle East and the Indian sub-Comtinent ) were some of the major theaters of Communism .

The reasons were manifold. Least of which was that Russian communism was based on a pre-existing economic structure, however fragile, while Chinese was based on practically non existent one, thanks to Chian Kai Shek. While, Russians had to figure out how to keep the existing infrastructure going and build on it, the Chinese had to build their system right from the scratch. Chinese social structure was also very different from the Russian, being an European country, and some wise guys in India felt, came close to that of India’s.

Oh ! you think Chinese were that insignificant ...... shows your ignorence of history ...... Do you know that US's defeat at the hands of Chinese during the Korean war was solely responsible for North Koreas existence today ???? it was during the 1950s .

The point is, that the Russians and the Chinese adapted communism that best suit their own situation.

correct . But each other were fighting to make it the international communist ideology

Nakshalbari movement was a local movement which caught the fancy of Mr Charu Mazumdar, who thought that it provided him with perfect ingredients for his lab test. Later on it caught the fancy of some really, otherwise genius men in Kolkata, resulting in the turbulent 70s. This finally spilled over to the other parts of India. Calling this local movement turned semi mass movement, a fall out of Sino-Soviet split is really ingenious. The Sino-Soviet split had taken place long before the Naxabari movement. In fact, Mao started to drift from the Soviet ideals, even before the long march. Mr Mazumdar was one of those wise guys who thought, Chinese situation fit the Indian case suitably. Hence his experimentation.

If anything, Naxabari was the result of the success of Mao’s Long March and propaganda, which put a lot of brilliant minds in la-la land. The so called split, had next to nothing to do with it, unless you are ascribing the success of Long March to the so called split.

you dont seem to feel a need to provide any reference to your radical statements ....

Tell me something new.

So, to summarize your post…you are saying…what exactly?

[/quote]


That Mao's ideology is fully reflected in the Naxalite movement ..... which by itself shows the effect sino-soviet split had on all communist nations


Let me remind you that in your last post you gave congress as the reason for the birth of naxalite movement .... learnt something new now have nt you ??

 

[Phantom Lancer]

I don't think Gujarat govt "instigated" any riot, the one which was "started" by a muslim mob and killed kar sevaks, who were just returning from their "yatra" from ayodhya many of whom were women and children, and murdered in a cold and calculated way!! Even Nanavati report has given the clean chit.

So the best possible to answer is ethnic cleansing of Muslims is it ??...... wow ,Mahatma Gandhi must be turning in his grave ....... No wonder countries like US consider India to be hypocritical ...... Advising non-violence to them while not following it ourselves ......


*www.pressnote.in/readnews.php?id=43307

Its only normal for people to get furiated when someone kills innocent people like that returning from some "yatra" and that too "women and children" on board.
*www.thehindu.com/2002/03/10/stories/2002031000021700.htm

Murdering a murderer makes you a murderer ...have you ever thought about that ??

So? The truth should be eradicated from the history? I never see anyone condemning the "the chapters of mughal glorification in NCERT books"?? Imagine young children thinking that we had been mughal slaves for centuries!

There is a big difference between "glorification of Mughals" and fostering "blood lust among children against a section of society"
These NCERT books dont teach children to hate any section of the society and give them violent ideas unlike the RSS's propaganda books

The first one is wrong .........but the second one is inhumane .... anti democratic ......laying the foundation for future violence

Your model should be Mahatma Gandhi not Palestinian terrorists

Why do those self-certified "secularists" who don't see the 'actions' of a situation are quick to point out the 'reactions' and refer it "communal"?? This will certainly happen if those who play apathetic towards one section and favour reservation and all sorts of luxuries for another. And then the sleeping beauties, the self-proclaimed judges will christen the activists of the former section as "communal". Well, I dont see anyone shouting that "muslim reservation" is communal. Nobody even sees this as a problem. Day wont be long when people will rise and demand hindu reservation and the sleeping beauties will wake from their hibernation and then call them "communal". Can anybody stop the slaughter of goats?

Because these secularists are wise ..... they know that we are a responsible nation and have a duty of ensuring justice to all ....
which means properly conducting investigations and ensuring that all the ppl involved in violence are arrested ..... but what actually happened was the Gujarat carnage ..... people who were never involved in the train scenario were haplessly killed including many women and children .so this was a bigger atrocity (many more were killed) and had the support of ppl who were meant to ensure justice !


How can ppl praise and worship Gandhi while totally Binning his ideals ????

 

[Phantom Lancer]

you know whats funny

Parties sure were tripping over themselves to get back the Gandhi memorabilia from abroad...... while in India one of the major parties has Hindutva as one of its core ideologies ......The same ideology which was responsible for the assassination of Mahatma Gandhi


Nathuram Godse was an activist of the Hindu Mahasaba a Hindutva group dissolved after its leaders were charged and arrested after the assination and has surfaced recently & was linked with the recent Malogoan blasts .
They were angry on the Mahatma over the Partition issue ......

if you spawn a violent group (for whatever noble reason or reaction) it ll one day turn on you ..... Pakistan has just learnt that lesson from the j&k terrorists......

 

[Faun]

you know whats funny

Parties sure were tripping over themselves to get back the Gandhi memorabilia from abroad...... while in India one of the major parties has Hindutva as one of its core ideologies ......The same ideology which was responsible for the assassination of Mahatma Gandhi


Nathuram Godse was an activist of the Hindu Mahasaba a Hindutva group dissolved after its leaders were charged and arrested after the assination and has surfaced recently & was linked with the recent Malogoan blasts .
They were angry on the Mahatma over the Partition issue ......

if you spawn a violent group (for whatever noble reason or reaction) it ll one day turn on you ..... Pakistan has just learnt that lesson from the j&k terrorists......

What Nathuram did was not completely his fault. He could have killed more than one person there but why he did not ?

Even partitioning India couldn't prevent the genocide in Pakistan and then later Bangladesh.

Gandhi Ji failed in his experiment of independence

 

[mediator]

So the best possible to answer is ethnic cleansing of Muslims is it ??...... wow ,Mahatma Gandhi must be turning in his grave ....... No wonder countries like US consider India to be hypocritical ...... Advising non-violence to them while not following it ourselves ......

I don't understand where it calls for the "ethnic cleansing of muslims"? Telling the children of the real history where mughals destroyed scriptures, raped women, killed infidels etc, is all part of the history. Even Quran explains in "detail" of "how" "infidels" were killed and "why" they were killed. Perhaps its time you you do lil research in that field too. If reviving the true history is offensive for you then perhaps the whole Quran would be more offensive for you. Don't you agree?

And btw, from your statement it seems you consider "countries like US", which created terror in Vietnam (biological warfare), japan (first use of nuclear bomb), Iraq (false accusation of WMD) etc, as an authority which stands tall in giving out certificates of whose sane and whose hypocritical!!!??? Congratulations!

Let peace be with Mahatma Gandhi. More material for your research ...
*www.sabha.info/history.html

Murdering a murderer makes you a murderer ...have you ever thought about that ??

I thought you were serious in a discussion. Perhaps, you should

* Let kasab go free. (after all death by court is also killing, its only the reason and side of morality that differentiates between a murder and justice by hanging).
* Perhaps you hould dance around with mosquitoes when they bite you and start practising non-violence

...have you ever thought about that ??

There is a big difference between "glorification of Mughals" and fostering "blood lust among children against a section of society"
These NCERT books dont teach children to hate any section of the society and give them violent ideas unlike the RSS's propaganda books

The first one is wrong .........but the second one is inhumane .... anti democratic ......laying the foundation for future violence

Your model should be Mahatma Gandhi not Palestinian terrorists

History is a subject which teaches about past. If thought in a little detail, it can also prove as a subject from which the mankind can learn from it so that mistakes are not repeated. Judging by those mistakes we learn ...

* Cast system has been distorted and blown out of proportion and now people are learning that the orginal cast system was by "karma" which is logical and analogous to the classes of "scientists, teachers, clercs etc"
* Islamists have tried to impose "sharia" whenever they were in majority. Talk about their secularity wherever they are in majority.
* Mughals destroyed temples, scriptures etc. So, IMO, this should be covered extensively so that the history does not repeat itself.

I don't think RSS is teaching them to "kill" muslims. If thats the case then ofcourse that should be dealt with. And btw, isn't blood lust developed if a person witnesses the slaughter of animals like goats since childhood? It seems you cannot identify how history can be useful and what is harmful. If it really irks some people like you, then perhaps they should stop expounding Babri drama, godhra etc which again were "reactions" and not "actions" and certainly not like the 1984 state sponsored sikh murders.

The first one is wrong .........but the second one is inhumane .... anti democratic ......laying the foundation for future violence

Your model should be Mahatma Gandhi not Palestinian terrorists

Read the links I gave and revamp your ideologies. I'm not saying Gandhi did nuthing. But certainly he is not my "model" or a "mahatma" to be revered as. On the contrary I find it funny of how "non-violence" could have stopped Britishers who could have looted easily. Who could have stopped them if all had continued singing the "non-violence" song? Bhagat singh, rajguru, sukhdev etc were termed as extermists in NCERT books, were the ones who instilled terror in Britishers. Can you live in Pakistan where Talibs are terrorising sikhs, hindus and all the kaafirs?

Because these secularists are wise ..... they know that we are a responsible nation and have a duty of ensuring justice to all ....

If stupidity and hypocrisy is synonmous with wiseness in ur dictionary, then count me in.

which means properly conducting investigations and ensuring that all the ppl involved in violence are arrested ..... but what actually happened was the Gujarat carnage ..... people who were never involved in the train scenario were haplessly killed including many women and children .so this was a bigger atrocity (many more were killed) and had the support of ppl who were meant to ensure justice !

Sure, we are still to see 1984 riot accused and those accused are given clean chit. The statement doesn't end up with "are arrested", but with properly tried. We all know bt Afzal!

The people who were killed were victims of "typical riots", not "state sponsored" like the 1984 one. Weren't hindus killed in Gujarat? Perhaps you need to study nanavati report.

Twenty-eight persons have been arrested in connection with the train attack, including the president of the Godhra Municipal Corporation, Mohammed Kalota, and corporators Bilal Haji and Farookh Bhana. Others arrested include Salim Sheik, Razak Doongeria, Kankatta and Altaf, who the district police chief, Rajeev Bhargava, said were all known for communal activities.

Source already given!

“They were just mad people who had nothing to do with the BJP. I am thankful that God gave me presence of mind on that day. Had I opened fire with my service revolver, I would have been lynched.”

*www.pressnote.in/readnews.php?id=43307

I think you are not reading the links I'm putting forward and just opining silly.

How can ppl praise and worship Gandhi while totally Binning his ideals ????

People need to praise and worship those who actually bled for their country and not the ones who did politics. No wonder ignorant INdians perceive Raul Vinci as their future and don't even know about the plight of the soldiers who are bleeding 24*7 on the borders. To make the matters worse our beloved UPA has took one step beyond. Our true heroes like Mohan Chand Sharma get disgrace and terrorists the sympathy of Human Rights activists? Petty politics and undermining of our true heroes.

Learn history, let the mistakes be not repeated.

you know whats funny

Parties sure were tripping over themselves to get back the Gandhi memorabilia from abroad...... while in India one of the major parties has Hindutva as one of its core ideologies ......The same ideology which was responsible for the assassination of Mahatma Gandhi


Nathuram Godse was an activist of the Hindu Mahasaba a Hindutva group dissolved after its leaders were charged and arrested after the assination and has surfaced recently & was linked with the recent Malogoan blasts .
They were angry on the Mahatma over the Partition issue ......

You know whats funny? Its your ignorance! Mahatma and nehru were both stupid. For their own political agendas they partitioned India. And now we are witnessing Kashmir issue, terrorism over it and what not? Did these Gandhi oligarchs think the Hindu-Muslim divide could not be contained? If yes, then perhaps we need better people than those who still think Nehru-Gandhi are our "models".

if you spawn a violent group (for whatever noble reason or reaction) it ll one day turn on you ..... Pakistan has just learnt that lesson from the j&k terrorists......

First learn the difference between action and a reaction. Then learn the difference bet. "Protecting history" and "terrorism".


Here's more on UPA's "behaving" policies ...

'Muslims must have first claim on resources'

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said plans for minorities, particularly Muslims, must have the ‘first claim’ on resources so that benefits of development reach them equitably.

"We will have to devise innovative plans to ensure that minorities, particularly the Muslim minority, are empowered to share equitably the fruits of development. These must have the first claim on resources," he said in his address at the 52nd meeting of the National Development Council (NDC) in New Delhi.

*www.expressindia.com/news/fullstory.php?newsid=77972

Again, I fail to see anyone calling this move as "communal". Had it been hindus first, people would have roared calling it "communal".


* Sikhs getting slaughtered in thousand = A MISTAKE.
* Hindus getting killed in Kashmir = Political problem.
* Muslims getting killed by a few hundred = Holocaust.
* Poor protestors getting shot in WB under Left Govt = Misunderstanding.
* Talking about Hindus and Hinduism = Communal.
* Talking about Muslims and Islam = Secular.
* Kargil Attack = Government failure.
* Chinese invasion in 1962 = Unfortunate betrayal.
* Reservations in every school and college on caste lines = Secular.
* Reservations in Minority institutions = ?
* Fake encounters in Gujarat [Sohrabuddin] = BJP Communalism.
* Fake encounters under Cong-NCP in Maharashtra [Khwaja Younus] = Police atrocity.
* Banning Parzania in Gujarat = Communal.
* Banning Da Vinci Code and Jo Bole So Nihaal = Secular.
* BJP freeing 3 terrorists to save 100 Indian hostages = Shameful
* Congress freeing 4 militants to save just a life of one Daughter of its minister in Kashmir [Rubina Sayed] Political dilemma = Natural Dilemma
* Attack on Parliament = BJP ineptitude.
* Not hanging Afzal Guru the mastermind despite Supreme Court orders = Humanity and Political dilemma.
* BJP questioning Islamic Terrorist Forces = Communal.
* Congress questioning Lord Ram existence = Clerical Error.

Watch = Become terrorist get paid by Government
Congress stopping the release of a film on 1984 anti-sikh state sponsored terrorism

 

[karnivore]

First, whats with you and colour.

FYI i think communism is neither good in theory nor practice .....

Not that I need that information, but this comment explains a lot about your (mis)understanding of communism.

->Now now .....you r contradicting yourself here .... we are talking about the wane of communism not its demise

So we are playing the game of rhetoric now. O goodie..what’s the prize.

->lol it was 2 grown men Marx and Lennin who bought out the Marxism-Leninism line of commi thinking

*sigh*. When you don’t understand what your opponent is saying, why do you even bother to reply.

->Maoism was one of the major factors if not the only factor for the sino-soviet split

Your lack of understanding is amazing. Maoism is the ONLY factor for the Sino-soviet split. However Sino-soviet split was not the reason of demise…oops…waning of communism. That’s my point.

Result of the sino soviet split

->Russia sided with India ( a non commi state) during the Indo China war
-> China for the first time sided with the US
->It spawned wars in Africa and Middle east
->spawned Naxalism in India

Correct, correct, semi-correct, wrong.

this infighting was enough to make the communist bloc crumble .......

The fact that Russia was choking on its own weight (read economic disaster, right from NEP to perestroika) was not ? The fact that, Russian system did not give freedom of thought, was not? The fact that the party would ruthlessly implement its policies, was not? The fact that all dissentient voices would disappear in the middle of the night, never to be seen again, was not? The fact that Russia bled profusely in Afganistan was not ? The fact that millions perished in China due to Mao’s idiotic experiment, was not?

But it was ONLY the “infighting” that “enough to make the communist bloc crumble”…what after 40 odd years since the split ? Was it the infighting that lead Deng Xiaoping to open up the economy and heralding age of capitalism in China ? Was it this infighting that forced Gorbachev to introduce glasnost and perestroika ? Was it this infighting that resulted in the demise…I hope I am using the right word here…of East Germany, without a bullet being fired ? Was it this infighting that resulted in breaking up of other Warshaw pact countries ?

Bah...

thats a joke

I love to jest. But do provide some evidence, other than Wikipedia, where the Chinese under Mao, funded, trained and/or actively participated in exporting their brand of communism to any other part of the globe, expect of course, Cambodia. Mao’s influence was restricted at intellectual level. It almost never came down to practice. That’s the point I am making.

but by no means does that dilute the effects Maoism had on Communism .

It by every mean dilutes your contention that the reason of demise…oops again, waning of communism is the sino-soviet split. When communism, as was practiced (note please, not theorized) had next to no influence of Mao, then it stands to reason, that the so called split had almost no influence in practice of communism as well.

Yes, I would agree that it resulted in camps within the communist, but that did not result in the waning…yeppiee… I got that right…of communism. Because, even after the split, the world continued to be represented by US, as the bourgeois and the other by Russia, as the proletariats. (Yeah, I know Nixon and his great Chinese game, you don’t have to remind me that)

But you seem to be basing your thoughts on communism on 2 or 3 grown men like Che

Nope.

Dont forget the all important Middle East ...... At that time (read before the fall of USSR) , these (Africa Middle East and the Indian sub-Comtinent ) were some of the major theaters of Communism .

Cold war era politics. More about appeasing one super power to counter the other.

The reasons were manifold. Least of which was that Russian communism was based on a pre-existing economic structure, however fragile, while Chinese was based on practically non existent one, thanks to Chian Kai Shek. While, Russians had to figure out how to keep the existing infrastructure going and build on it, the Chinese had to build their system right from the scratch. Chinese social structure was also very different from the Russian, being an European country, and some wise guys in India felt, came close to that of India’s.

Oh ! you think Chinese were that insignificant ...... shows your ignorence of history ...... Do you know that US's defeat at the hands of Chinese during the Korean war was solely responsible for North Koreas existence today ???? it was during the 1950s .

Eh..? Save your history lessons and start taking lessons in comprehension. Which part of the para that you have quoted you don’t get.

In that para I have tried to explain, in brief, why Mao had to part ways with the Russian system and why although intellectually intriguing, Maoism failed to capture the imagination of the rest of the world, particularly Europe, as did Leninism or Stalinism.

But each other were fighting to make it the international communist ideology

You probably don’t know, that Russia and China had border problem long before Mao arrived at the scene. After revolution, Mao inherited that border problem which also resulted in Russian army marching well into China. The so called fighting was not just ideological, but purely territorial as well.

you dont seem to feel a need to provide any reference to your radical statements ....

By reference…you mean on-line references ? Nope I don’t have any. Only books and half the names I have forgotten. Most of the books were by Bengali writers.

That Mao's ideology is fully reflected in the Naxalite movement .....

Agree

…which by itself shows the effect sino-soviet split had on all communist nations

Disagree, and I have given reasons.

Let me remind you that in your last post you gave congress as the reason for the birth of naxalite movement

Feel free to show me where…do quote that part. Then hopefully you will apologize for lying.

.... learnt something new now have nt you ??

…and that is, never try to reason with a…well…nevermind. But one thing. If you are trying to look for inconsistencies in my arguments, you will have to do more than just quote wiki or some random blog.

 

[Phantom Lancer]

What Nathuram did was not completely his fault. He could have killed more than one person there but why he did not ?

what do you mean by that ? Do you know that Godse made 2-3 failed assassination attempts before actually managing to assassinate Gandhi ??? His target is obvious is nt it .....

Even partitioning India couldn't prevent the genocide in Pakistan and then later Bangladesh.

Gandhi Ji failed in his experiment of independence

That by no means justifies assassinating the mahatma does it ?

He is after all credited with getting us our independence ......... atleast now we have a part of India to ourself .......

 

[Phantom Lancer]

ok ppl stop getting emotional ..... this is just a debate

i am going to stop here ........ we are getting into dangerous territory

mediator has started name calling some leaders here .....Now i remember reading a news article where a man from banglore was arrested for posting stuff that some people (dont know who ?) deemed offensive towards the Maharashtrian king Shivaji ...... so it best that i bow out here ....(google search - man arrested for slurring against Shivaji on orkut)
.and the sad part was that the arrested man was innocent .....so lets not go too far .


PS : if your appetite for a debate has nt been vetted yet karnivore and mediator please feel free to PM me your IM id ..... its easir to carry on long debates on IM rather than in Digit ...... the server is slow a lot of times and it keeps logging you out every few mins of perceived inactivity(yeah i know vbb) ..... and i dont think anybody is going to be convinced by the other's argument ...

E-Peace
outta here

 

[mediator]

mediator has started name calling some leaders here .....Now i remember reading a news article where a man from banglore was arrested for posting stuff that some people (dont know who ?) deemed offensive towards the Maharashtrian king Shivaji

That by no means justifies assassinating the mahatma does it ?

He is after all credited with getting us our independence ......... atleast now we have a part of India to ourself .......

I believe we'll achieve independence when we'll get rid of gandhi dynasty which is preoccupied in ruining our nation. Atleast you agree on the scope of "freedom of speech". Politicians question the existence of Ram, NCERT calls our true freedom fighters as "terrorists" and here we are, the helpless citizens who can't even speak the "truth" and term the activities of Nehru-Gandhi as stupidities. "Stupid" isn't an extreme word or an abuse and I believe is certainly not name calling. I believe speaking truth has become a crime in our own country.

So if you want to stop, then just say so. Don't give absurd reasons. Nobody is forcing you to continue, atleast not me!

PS: the server has an option (yeah u shud know => "remember me"). It helps u in staying connected at all times and from all ISPs.

Yep, thats right, no hard feelings n have phun!

 

[Faun]

what do you mean by that ? Do you know that Godse made 2-3 failed assassination attempts before actually managing to assassinate Gandhi ??? His target is obvious is nt it .....

That by no means justifies assassinating the mahatma does it ?

He is after all credited with getting us our independence ......... atleast now we have a part of India to ourself .......

So you said that we were given India as alms ? India was always a land of its people. There was no need to separate it. India has suffered the most from it.

I don't believe in all that history hogwash. Remember history is written by those who were in Power.

I am not justifying Mahatama's assassination, I am saying that Nathuram did was not out of personal grudge.
-----------------------------------------
Posted again:
-----------------------------------------

ok ppl stop getting emotional ..... this is just a debate

i am going to stop here ........ we are getting into dangerous territory

mediator has started name calling some leaders here .....Now i remember reading a news article where a man from banglore was arrested for posting stuff that some people (dont know who ?) deemed offensive towards the Maharashtrian king Shivaji ...... so it best that i bow out here ....(google search - man arrested for slurring against Shivaji on orkut)
.and the sad part was that the arrested man was innocent .....so lets not go too far .


PS : if your appetite for a debate has nt been vetted yet karnivore and mediator please feel free to PM me your IM id ..... its easir to carry on long debates on IM rather than in Digit ...... the server is slow a lot of times and it keeps logging you out every few mins of perceived inactivity(yeah i know vbb) ..... and i dont think anybody is going to be convinced by the other's argument ...

E-Peace
outta here

Yes, please STOP or internet police will put us in jail for name calling leaders...lol

 

[afonofa]

Let me just get things back on track a little by saying that if the NDA does not come to power this time, then advani's dream of becoming PM of India will remain just a dream. By the next elections, he will be too old to be PM, if not plagued by ill health or losing power to modi or whatever the reason, this is his last chance and I'm going to vote to DENY him that chance.

Congress is the lesser evil.

Jai Hind! Jai Ho!

 

[karnivore]

^^ I like the way you think.

But this is India. Always expect the unexpected.

 

[The Sorcerer]

Bummer! I see lot of people here making multiple quotes and making lot of points. Its too bad that majority of the Indians- irrespective of religion and caste (however if people are too uneducated and/or incompetent to understand the meaning of democracy that's their call- one cant make horse out of donkeys) Question to all of you- what is the purpose of this topic? Because I just see bunch of geniuses out here making a verbal squabble but the so called debate is going on circles. You will see tonnes of these discussions and one fine day this topic will die- and the last comment will end up like "But this is India". Excuse me but its people who made that kind of reputation. We as Indians want to be International recognized but as I said before- we barely care about basic and general hygiene when we are out or somebody's property, how can we run a type of government where it requires people to have a level of discipline? Majority of the argument itself lacks any form of ethics and the topic is carried away. You want change? Bring the change? Countries like United States didnt become super power soon after they got their independence- it taken them centuries. Nobody said that running a multi- cultural country like India will be an easy task. But if we dont follow certain set of basic ethics in our day-to-day lives, politicians will merely state the same behaviour and facts that we as majority do. We also have a bad habit to highlight bad things and ignore the good things that has happened- so we see nothing but bad things.

 

[Phantom Lancer]

So if you want to stop, then just say so. Don't give absurd reasons. Nobody is forcing you to continue, atleast not me!

PS: the server has an option (yeah u shud know => "remember me"). It helps u in staying connected at all times and from all ISPs.

Yep, thats right, no hard feelings n have phun!

1) lol if i wanted to stop i would nt have given u ppl an option to catch me on IM .... i find it easier to have such long drawn debates on IM rather than on Bulletin boards .....

2) I joined Think digit quiet recently ....... but i am no stranger to VBB forums ..... i have been a prolific poster in many other forums which use VBulltin board ...... and i know about the remember me option ....... but sometimes it so happens that after i have been logged out while typing ....... and relogin to submit my post .... my post just vanishes .... it has happened to me a few times ...... only on Think Digit mind u .... so the debate aint over yet ..... i am just tired of making huge posts .....

Dream on ............ i never back out of a debate

 

[Phantom Lancer]

So you said that we were given India as alms ? India was always a land of its people. There was no need to separate it. India has suffered the most from it.

Nope ........ If there were no Gandhi or Nehru we would not have any part of India ....... Do you honestly think that the disorganized rag tag Indian Guerrilla army struck fear in the hearts of British ..... the British had experience fighting much deadlier foes in other parts of the world ..... like the Irish Republican Army (IRA) .... among the many people they managed to assassinate , was the then Indian Viceroy Mountbatten .... were the indian Guerrilla disorganized as they were, half as effective ??

The then Congress was the only reason Britain left India .......If Gandhi felt the need for the separation we should respect it .....if not then BJP should have got us our Freedom lol

I don't believe in all that history hogwash. Remember history is written by those who were in Power.

so you automatically assume they are lying ???? ......
being the only people who have actually seen it and recorded it , their sources are quiet authentic (and the only one which can be relied upon )....... and we dont need history to tell us what happened 50 years back ..... people of that time still live today



you would rather believe in your own ideas and assumptions of what happened back then rather than history written by these victors ???
i guess you have seen it all with your own eyes ?? 1000 year old man are u ???

 

[karnivore]

Bummer! I see lot of people here making multiple quotes and making lot of points. Its too bad that majority of the Indians- irrespective of religion and caste (however if people are too uneducated and/or incompetent to understand the meaning of democracy that's their call- one cant make horse out of donkeys) Question to all of you- what is the purpose of this topic? Because I just see bunch of geniuses out here making a verbal squabble but the so called debate is going on circles. You will see tonnes of these discussions and one fine day this topic will die- and the last comment will end up like "But this is India". Excuse me but its people who made that kind of reputation. We as Indians want to be International recognized but as I said before- we barely care about basic and general hygiene when we are out or somebody's property, how can we run a type of government where it requires people to have a level of discipline? Majority of the argument itself lacks any form of ethics and the topic is carried away. You want change? Bring the change? Countries like United States didnt become super power soon after they got their independence- it taken them centuries. Nobody said that running a multi- cultural country like India will be an easy task. But if we dont follow certain set of basic ethics in our day-to-day lives, politicians will merely state the same behaviour and facts that we as majority do. We also have a bad habit to highlight bad things and ignore the good things that has happened- so we see nothing but bad things.

Bah....word salad. Regarding the bold part, it is called introspection, or self-criticism, but hell, you would rather gloat on (non)shinning India, while 50% of our population toil to barely survive.

 

[Phantom Lancer]

I am not justifying Mahatama's assassination, I am saying that Nathuram did was not out of personal grudge.

so what Godse did was far worse ..... he killed a peaceful man for a flimsy reason (because he believed in a different ideology ?? )

Yes, please STOP or internet police will put us in jail for name calling leaders...lol

^ really immature ......

i am sure you have forgotten that unregistered guests can read our posts ..... its a possibility that a party supporter or a worker stumbles upon that posts .... If you want to stick your neck out and get effed up ..... be my guest , its your life .... i prefer to play it safe

PS : If you had read that news piece you would have realized that they can put you in jail for no reason at all , based on mere suspicion .....

 

[mediator]

1) lol if i wanted to stop i would nt have given u ppl an option to catch me on IM .... i find it easier have such long drawn debates on IM rather than on Bulletin boards .....

Why did you even bother posting then? Couldn't you read my earlier posts? Perhaps u cud have left ur email id from the start. What a joke!

Long drawn "debates on IM"??? Do u even understand what a "debate" is? Perhaps u r glutton for a "chat". Did u really think I was having this "online forum conversation" just with you? Imagine Kapil Sibal tellin Arun Jaitley, "Hey we can talk bt 1984 sikh issue on IM".

2) I joined Think digit quiet recently ....... but i am no stranger to VBB forums ..... i have been a prolific poster in many other forums which use VBulltin board ...... and i know about the remember me option ....... but sometimes it so happens that after i have been logged out while typing ....... and relogin to submit my post .... my post just vanishes .... it has happened to me a few times ...... only on Think Digit mind u ....

Install Linux (just kiddin).... & .... You should stop explaining yourself on useless things.

keep dreaming ............ i never back out of a debate

I'm pleased! Welcome back, reply to my unreplied post.

Nope ........ If there were no Gandhi or Nehru we would not have any part of India ....... Do you honestly think that the disorganized rag tag Indian Guerrilla army struck fear in the hearts of British ..... the British had experience fighting much deadlier foes in other parts of the world ..... like the Irish Republican Army (IRA) .... among the many people they managed to assassinate was the then Indian Viceroy Mountbatten .... were the indian Guerrilla disorganized as they were half as effective ??

The then Congress was the only reason Britain left India .......If Gandhi felt the need for the separation we should respect it .....if not then BJP should have got us our Freedom lol

Yes, I'm sure it was becoz of congress. I would only like to ask, "how old are u?".

Do u know "anything" about the impact of the world wars on Britishers at the time of Indian Independence?

"BJP should have got us freedom"??????? Ah well,

Here's some timeline you should mug up to perform better in you school.
*www.bjp.org/content/view/436/289/

Now stop explaining urself and opining silly.

 

[The Sorcerer]

Politics and democracy is something which should be discussed between people who know atleast something about our country's history- and someone who has some level of IQ enough to make a decent debate- unlike some of the politicians out there. Phantom should refrain himself from converting a good discussion into fantasy land politics . Ofcourse if we all had a face to face debate, some of us would be saying something else .