Windows vs Linux: Power to the user

[sakumar79]

What is the need to uninstall IE or WMP when you can install third party software and set it as default? How does it affect the end user whether IE/WMP stays installed or not?

Arun

 

[cyberjar09]

What is the need to uninstall IE or WMP when you can install third party software and set it as default? How does it affect the end user whether IE/WMP stays installed or not?

Arun

You are absolutely right it does not affect the user in any way. I was merely enqiring if that was the subject of debate when the EU had a problem with MS.

 

[Liverpool_fan]

What is the need to uninstall IE or WMP when you can install third party software and set it as default? How does it affect the end user whether IE/WMP stays installed or not?

Arun

You are thinking very narrowly as only in End User perspective.
As far as Internet Explorer was concerned, it had its own implementation of web standards, and as a result making of web pages for IE broke compatibility with other browsers. And since Internet Explorer is almost a standard just due to the fact it is bundled with Windows, it was a huge disadvantage for other browser vendors not to mention the headache for web developers. IE9 will hopefully being more compatible will reduce the incompatibility disadvantage, however still it gives Microsoft huge advantage in terms of market control.
As for WMP is concerned the key point is codec support. Does WMP support VP8, Theora, or Vorbis codecs? Nope.
That is why concerns over IE and WMP bundling exist.
As for Firefox in Linux distros, and Safari in OS X is concerned, it's a different case because:
- They don't own the huge market share
- Gecko and Webkit are open source web engines
- They don't have the awful record of breaking compatiblity and monopolistic practices like IE has. Whatever you say, the past record does play a role.

 

[abhijangda]

i agrees with liverpool. He is right

 

[sakumar79]

With Respect to IE:
I agree that IE6 became stagnant for a long time... But I am not fully convinced that just because it has the largest user base (due to being bundled with Windows) it has to be subject to the lawsuit... Why does MS not have the right to bundle its own browser, however old and outdated and incompatible it may be?

With regard to WMP:
Is it the duty of a music player to be compatible with all the codecs out there? I dont think so...

Again, all these are only because Windows has the highest market share... This is again why Windows cannot provide the same complete OOBE that Linux can bring - because it cannot bundle all the software it wants without getting into trouble with the law...

If Windows bundled free/FOSS software, how does Windows handle customer support calls related to these software? It can hardly ask the customer to get in touch with the FOSS software developper nor is it financially viable to give customer support for the free software...

And if Windows buys a software and includes it, there will be hue and cry from vendors of same type software because their market will be affected...

This is why I am repeating that OOBE comparison is useless... It is the End User Experience that is critical...

Arun

 

[desiibond]

@sakumar79 @abhijangda @Liverpool_fan @cyberjar09 @Rahim

Please take your discussion to a different thread and keep this thread clean. This thread is meant for survey, not for discussion.

Thread for disussion/arguments: *www.thinkdigit.com/forum/fight-club/134287-windows-vs-linux-discussion-feedback-thread.html

 

[Liverpool_fan]

Why does MS not have the right to bundle its own browser, however old and outdated and incompatible it may be?

Because it cripples the market, affects the web, extinguishes competition and gives a corporate company control over the entire web. Clearly you need to research on monopolistic practices and anti trust.
Remember the 'Best Viewed in IE6'? Remember being not being able to access web sites with your browsers? I ask why other browsers are put into such disadvantage inherently. Just because a certain company controls the OS market? Does that company have the right to destroy their market too by locking in its users?

With regard to WMP:
Is it the duty of a music player to be compatible with all the codecs out there? I dont think so...

It can EASILY support those free codecs. Not all codecs are being talked about here. Users are locked in with Microsoft codecs which they cannot use legally in other OSes without paying for royalties to Microsoft.
It should support those codecs because it is bundled with the most used operating system, period. They may optionally make their codecs royalty free and implement open source encoders/decoders, if they desire.

If Windows bundled free/FOSS software, how does Windows handle customer support calls related to these software? It can hardly ask the customer to get in touch with the FOSS software developper nor is it financially viable to give customer support for the free software...

They can open source few of their technologies. Can't they? OK I know they won't but at least they should respect the standards of the web/media. IE9 seems a right step in this direction as it has improved standard compliance.

And if Windows buys a software and includes it, there will be hue and cry from vendors of same type software because their market will be affected...

Of course there will be a hue and cry. If one company is totally controlling the market, and using its dominance to push their products, thereby making those products dominant and then actually making other products inherently incompatible with their market leading products, surely the competition is being affected and the market is no longer being free.

Again, all these are only because Windows has the highest market share... This is again why Windows cannot provide the same complete OOBE that Linux can bring - because it cannot bundle all the software it wants without getting into trouble with the law...

This is why I am repeating that OOBE comparison is useless... It is the End User Experience that is critical...

Why it is useless? Microsoft abused its privilege with Internet Explorer, and thus got into trouble with the law. Similarly they are abusing their monopoly with WMP, and have got the anti-trust lawyers behind their backs.
With Linux, being based on open source software, no distro can abuse their privilege. That's a fact.
The fact is Microsoft cannot match Linux on OOBE experience, and that is a direct consequence of the blatant abuse of their monopoly.

@sakumar79 @abhijangda @Liverpool_fan @cyberjar09 @Rahim

Please take your discussion to a different thread and keep this thread clean. This thread is meant for survey, not for discussion.

Sorry didn't read this post. Please move the posts/delete if you wish.

 

[sakumar79]

Because it cripples the market, affects the web, extinguishes competition and gives a corporate company control over the entire web. Clearly you need to research on monopolistic practices and anti trust.
Remember the 'Best Viewed in IE6'? Remember being not being able to access web sites with your browsers? I ask why other browsers are put into such disadvantage inherently. Just because a certain company controls the OS market? Does that company have the right to destroy their market too by locking in its users?

But is the fault of developing the website to render only in IE due to a MS policy? Did they abuse their power and make the website developers render only in IE correctly? IMHO, just like many hardware makers are providing drivers only for Windows (which is slowly changing), many web devs made the sites for IE only... How does that become MS fault? Is it also MS fault that some of the hardware makers are not releasing drivers for Linux?

It can EASILY support those free codecs. Not all codecs are being talked about here. Users are locked in with Microsoft codecs which they cannot use legally in other OSes without paying for royalties to Microsoft.
It should support those codecs because it is bundled with the most used operating system, period. They may optionally make their codecs royalty free and implement open source encoders/decoders, if they desire.

Are you saying that WMP did not support ANY free codec? I am asking because I do not know the exact details. If so, then I will agree with you... If it already supports one or more free codecs, then I dont think it has to support any other...

They can open source few of their technologies. Can't they? OK I know they won't but at least they should respect the standards of the web/media. IE9 seems a right step in this direction as it has improved standard compliance.

They should respect the standards... And IMHO, if they dont follow the standards, slowly they will be the ones to suffer... But if this is a sufficient case for anti-trust suit, I am not fully convinced... If MS agrees contractually that the standards would be strictly adhered to, and refused to do so, I agree that a lawsuit is imminent... But if not, then No... But this is just my personal opinion.

Of course there will be a hue and cry. If one company is totally controlling the market, and using its dominance to push their products, thereby making those products dominant and then actually making other products inherently incompatible with their market leading products, surely the competition is being affected and the market is no longer being free.

Why it is useless? Microsoft abused its privilege with Internet Explorer, and thus got into trouble with the law. Similarly they are abusing their monopoly with WMP, and have got the anti-trust lawyers behind their backs.
With Linux, being based on open source software, no distro can abuse their privilege. That's a fact.
The fact is Microsoft cannot match Linux on OOBE experience, and that is a direct consequence of the blatant abuse of their monopoly.

The reason why I feel this comparison is useless is because the end user experience depends not just on OOBE but on the final configuration of the OS on his system...

Arun

 

[Rahim]

^Quite frankly desibond, my post was not a part of a discussion here (i didnt even knew that i was debating this topic).

All right removed long sentences and short answers of the queries.Read it again:

Queries from staticsid answered without bias by Rahim
How long have you been using Linux?
3-4 Years (cant rmember the exact year)

How long have you been using Windows?
7 Years

Which OS did you begin using first?
MS Windows Me

Objectives (Please provide a short explanation for your experiences in each of the provided tasks):

1. When you installed Linux/Windows, which one did you find easier to install?
I choose Linux here.

2. Which OS provided the best default programs post installation?
Linux

3. Which of the OS's provided the best default web browser based on 1.functionality, 2.security, and 3.user-friendliness?
Linux and the browser would be Firefox.

4. Which OS did you find better to customize based on how easy it was to customize, the amount of visual and audible appeal, and the variety of customization available for the OS.
Linux all the way.

5. Which OS did you find it easier to add new programs based on how easy it was to find the software, how easy it was to install.
Both OS provides easy way of installing the applications.

6. Which OS provided a better networking experience in terms of security, setting up a LAN (wired and wireless), printer (network or direct) and functionality.
Windows is easier to setup Networking.

7. Which OS is a better base for productivity, whether it be programming,
writing, graphical design, etc. ( It can be a combination of these if you do more than one. Feel free to add your own.)
Windows - considering that professional application are available only on that platform.

8. Which OS provided better file and folder management based on copying
and moving files, finding your files, adding and deleting files.
Here a Desktop Environment like KDE kicks Windows where it hurts.

9. Which OS was easier to maintain based on scanning/removing viruses and malware, defragmenting and cleaning up disk space, and backing up your information.
Linux and it is free of viruses and malwares.

10. Which OS do you find easier to troubleshoot based on man/info/help pages, working out issues on your own, and online help like forums and online
documentation.
Hmm,,,,this is a tough one. I cant answer this one.

11. Which OS provided the most stability and performance based on cpu usage, peripheral hardware compatibility (IE: mouse, tablet, webcam), software and OS freezing, crashing, locking-up, and hardware compatibility.
Linux.

 

[Rahim]

Re: Windows vs Linux: Discussion from feedback thread

@sakumar:

All the agreements and MoU of Microsoft are Anti-Competitive which hinders fair play and lacks of probity , which is a crime as per Competition laws of any country.

Microsoft slept all those years with IE6 with no innovation or security improvements till Mozilla Firefox woke them up. Who benefited? Users of course.

In EU MS was forced to provide an option to the users to choose and install a different browsers and more than 40% chose to try non-IE browser and these users are vanilla type.

This is no fanboy talking but there MUST be a level field for competition.

 

[cyberjar09]

@desiibond I believe the guys at Digit would have already compiled the results of this thread considering it's the 23rd of the month and they prolly should be going to print sometime now ... so it does not matter

oh and one more thing...
desiibond : you failed to report your experience in using the above mentioned OSs ... look to the first 3 questions ..

 

[staticsid]

@sakumar79 @abhijangda @Liverpool_fan @cyberjar09 @Rahim

Please take your discussion to a different thread and keep this thread clean. This thread is meant for survey, not for discussion.

Thread for disussion/arguments: *www.thinkdigit.com/forum/fight-club/134287-windows-vs-linux-discussion-feedback-thread.html

Well thanks desiibond but we'd like to hear it all ! Feel free to fight over this guys...

The reason is that one of the hidden objectives of the survey was also to judge biases (in spite of being told not to be biased) and the passion that people feel for their beloved OSes.

 

[sakumar79]

Re: Windows vs Linux: Discussion from feedback thread

@Rahim... I agree that MS stagnated IE development from IE6 to IE7... However, what I am saying is that when web developers made their site only IE6 compliant, which was not a decision or armtwisting of MS, IMHO it is not fair to say that it is monopolistic action of MS...

Maybe there was monopoly in some other form, but this particular aspect, in my opinion, is not monopoly...

Again, I am not saying that MS did not deserve an antitrust lawsuit... I do not have full details of the case to make such a statement... All I am saying is that in this particular aspect - stagnation of IE development leading to incompatible website viewing for other browsers - I do not think that a case is valid... Again, this is only my opinion...

Arun

 

[Rahim]

Re: Windows vs Linux: Discussion from feedback thread

Take this example:
For a long time there was only one company Maruti Suzuki in India and Maruti 800 was the only car in the market and no other competitor. Now if the parts developers build only Maruti certified parts and in the process ends up giving an indirect monopoly to Maruti; this is because there was only one company and their product to run the spare parts business. There was no point on the part of the parts mfg to build non-Maruti spares, is it? Whom to blame? Deals between the company and Government. The same applies to Microsoft and various Governments who is ready to spend tax-payers money on costly products rather than embracing FOSS. If one does not really have viable options in FOSS then its a different matter.
The project of UID is a glaring example.


So you cant blame the website developers for making IE-compliant sites because there was no other browser to talk about. Internet was not build during the years of Firefox; so there was gallons of water flew beneath the bridge and by that time all the sites became IE only. Above all IE was still the only browser who did not follow the Web Standards.

I am not anti-MS but Anti-Competitive.

 

[cyberjar09]

Im surprised that though the thread got so many views, only a handful replied

 

[Liverpool_fan]

But is the fault of developing the website to render only in IE due to a MS policy? Did they abuse their power and make the website developers render only in IE correctly?

See IE is the most used browser and at one time controlled over 95% of the market. Thus many web developers targeted their browser only. It may not be MS fault for the web developers to create such crappy web sites, but sure it is their fault to be incompatible at the first place, not releasing updates for ages (IE6->IE7). It's their fault it is such a pain to maintain cross browser compatibility. Ask any web developer.
It's a well known fact that Microsoft tried to kill the competition, see Netscape.

IMHO, just like many hardware makers are providing drivers only for Windows (which is slowly changing), many web devs made the sites for IE only... How does that become MS fault? Is it also MS fault that some of the hardware makers are not releasing drivers for Linux?

Nope.

Are you saying that WMP did not support ANY free codec? I am asking because I do not know the exact details. If so, then I will agree with you... If it already supports one or more free codecs, then I dont think it has to support any other...

It doesn't support Vorbis or Theora/FLAC out of the box.

 

[Rahim]

This thread was in Fight Club and now its back in Feedback section. Strange.

 

[lucifer_is_back]

............. but sure it is their fault to be incompatible at the first place,...........It's their fault it is such a pain to maintain cross browser compatibility. Ask any web developer.

is it their fault only ??
or should netscape be a party to the guilt too

It's a well known fact that Microsoft tried to kill the competition, see Netscape.
.

well they are in business are they not?
also i dont know if you had ever used the Netscape browsers after their buyout by AOL , they sucked big time , lesser features than IE and had shitload of bugs

 

[furious_gamer]

How long have you been using Linux?

For past 1 year (in office)

How long have you been using Windows?

From 1999

Which OS did you begin using first?

Windows 98

1. When you installed Linux/Windows, which one did you find easier to install?

Windows

2. Which OS provided the best default programs post installation?

Linux

3. Which of the OS's provided the best default web browser based on 1.functionality, 2.security, and 3.user-friendliness?

Linux

4. Which OS did you find better to customize based on how easy it was to customize, the amount of visual and audible appeal, and the variety of customization available for the OS.

Windows

5. Which OS did you find it easier to add new programs based on how easy it was to find the software, how easy it was to install.

Windows

6. Which OS provided a better networking experience in terms of security, setting up a LAN (wired and wireless), printer (network or direct) and functionality.

Windows

7. Which OS is a better base for productivity, whether it be programming,
writing, graphical design, etc. ( It can be a combination of these if you do more than one. Feel free to add your own.)

Windows

8. Which OS provided better file and folder management based on copying
and moving files, finding your files, adding and deleting files.

Windows

9. Which OS was easier to maintain based on scanning/removing viruses and malware, defragmenting and cleaning up disk space, and backing up your information.

Linux

10. Which OS do you find easier to troubleshoot based on man/info/help pages, working out issues on your own, and online help like forums and online
documentation.

Windows

11. Which OS provided the most stability and performance based on cpu usage, peripheral hardware compatibility (IE: mouse, tablet, webcam), software and OS freezing, crashing, locking-up, and hardware compatibility.

Linux


12. Anything additional worth a mention as far as this comparison between Linux and Windows goes?

Windows rocks in terms of usability and AFA games considered, Windows beat Linux easily.. Just my 2 cents....

 

[Liverpool_fan]

is it their fault only ??
or should netscape be a party to the guilt too

To be fair, Netscape were standard incompatible to a large extent too. However their code base was sort of reborn with "Mozilla" and for I am concerned it has NOT been holding back the web in recent years.
And yes it's Microsoft's fault that Internet Explorer was NOT updated for 5 fricking years. No major update even with Win XP's Service Pack, or any interim release. And shall we talk of the incompatiblities of IE7, my good lad?

well they are in business are they not?

So they should be prepared for anti-trust injunction. You can't have it both ways.

also i dont know if you had ever used the Netscape browsers after their buyout by AOL , they sucked big time , lesser features than IE and had shitload of bugs

I used to use Netscape 6 and 7. Preferred them over IE6. Netscape 7 has TABS (not sure Netscape 6 had them) and that was a huge advantage in terms of usability. Not sure of lesser features you are talking about. Netscape was more like bloated with way too many useless features than 'lesser features' than IE.