Why Apple can afford to rock

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a_k_s_h_a_y

Dreaming
hey Steve Jobs is a Genius !
If you can't understand that, then forget it no problem, just your point of view !

you actually don't know much about the actual Steve jobs, apart from his being apple CEO !
 
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ring_wraith

ring_wraith

=--=l33t=--=
Are you kidding? I idolize Steve Jobs. He practically made Apple and is the single most gifted marketing and design head to set foot on this planet. I'm just not afraid to call a spade a spade. The decision to not allow users to set their own MP3s as ringtones was a bad one, and that is the end of that.
 

a_k_s_h_a_y

Dreaming
i never said idolize him like fanboys

but you should certainly read how he recovered !
i love the marketing genius in him !
 

desiibond

Bond, Desi Bond!
Are you kidding? I idolize Steve Jobs. He practically made Apple and is the single most gifted marketing and design head to set foot on this planet. I'm just not afraid to call a spade a spade. The decision to not allow users to set their own MP3s as ringtones was a bad one, and that is the end of that.

Agree. Without him, Apple would've been history.

But I would also hail Jonathan Ive, SVP of Industrial design at Apple, man behind ipods and iphone and also Phil Schiller, SVP Marketing.

No other team can beat this team.
 

krazzy

Techtree Reviewer
Actually its not just Apple who overcharge their products. Sony does that too. And Sony's designs usually aren't even as good as those of Apple's. Mostly Sony just charge for their brand name. You get products that cost half of the price of an equivalent Sony product but which still perform the same.

Having said that there is something about these over priced products that people don't notice when you first see the price tags. This is something that one only learns when one actually spends some time with these products. The Sony products might be more expensive, but these things have a reputation for being bullet proof. You could buy an Akai LCD tv thinking that it is half the price of a similarly sized Sony tv, but spend a couple of years with it and then you discover how Akai managed to make the display so cheap and where exactly they cut the cost. Similarly your neighbour who might've bought a Sony would still be satisfied with his purchase and he would still be for many more years.

Quality always comes at a price. You just can't deny it. This is what I used think earlier. Than after listening to a few friends i started thinking that cheaper products are good as well and it doesn't have to be expensive to be good. I was proved wrong. I realised I was right all along.

Compare a Honda with a Merc. Both make great cars. Both are luxurious, have great performance and accomplish the basic task of taking you from point A to B. Then why should one choose Merc over the Honda? Because of the way they take you from point A to B. The Merc would've have automatic climate control which changes the cabin temperature according to the position of the sun. The seats would allow you to adjust it everyway possible and then save it in the memory so that if someone else sits on it and changes the settings you can get back those settings of yours at a push of a button. The cabin would be quieter so that after a hard days work you don't have to be annoyed with the honking of the truck or the sound of your own cars tires. Little fans in the seats which cool your back so that you don't sweat or massage you if you are really stressed. Plus the fact that you're probably in the safest place on four wheels and then you realise that the telephone number sized amount that you wrote on the check, which is probably equivalent to the GDP of a small country, for this car was after all, worth it. Same applies here.
 
hey Steve Jobs is a Genius !
If you can't understand that, then forget it no problem, just your point of view !

you actually don't know much about the actual Steve jobs, apart from his being apple CEO !
actually, at the end of the day, this is what turns out:

1. Steve Jobs rocks. He is an inspiration for all industrialists, innovators and marketers alike. He had a dream and a will to work for it.

2. Apple is still not good enough to be steve jobs' baby. He deserves better.
 
OP
ring_wraith

ring_wraith

=--=l33t=--=
Actually its not just Apple who overcharge their products. Sony does that too. And Sony's designs usually aren't even as good as those of Apple's. Mostly Sony just charge for their brand name. You get products that cost half of the price of an equivalent Sony product but which still perform the same.

Having said that there is something about these over priced products that people don't notice when you first see the price tags. This is something that one only learns when one actually spends some time with these products. The Sony products might be more expensive, but these things have a reputation for being bullet proof. You could buy an Akai LCD tv thinking that it is half the price of a similarly sized Sony tv, but spend a couple of years with it and then you discover how Akai managed to make the display so cheap and where exactly they cut the cost. Similarly your neighbour who might've bought a Sony would still be satisfied with his purchase and he would still be for many more years.

Quality always comes at a price. You just can't deny it. This is what I used think earlier. Than after listening to a few friends i started thinking that cheaper products are good as well and it doesn't have to be expensive to be good. I was proved wrong. I realised I was right all along.

Compare a Honda with a Merc. Both make great cars. Both are luxurious, have great performance and accomplish the basic task of taking you from point A to B. Then why should one choose Merc over the Honda? Because of the way they take you from point A to B. The Merc would've have automatic climate control which changes the cabin temperature according to the position of the sun. The seats would allow you to adjust it everyway possible and then save it in the memory so that if someone else sits on it and changes the settings you can get back those settings of yours at a push of a button. The cabin would be quieter so that after a hard days work you don't have to be annoyed with the honking of the truck or the sound of your own cars tires. Little fans in the seats which cool your back so that you don't sweat or massage you if you are really stressed. Plus the fact that you're probably in the safest place on four wheels and then you realise that the telephone number sized amount that you wrote on the check, which is probably equivalent to the GDP of a small country, for this car was after all, worth it. Same applies here.

You're missing the whole point of the thread. I am trying to say that Apple only rocks because you are paying it to do so. Just about any company could do the same if they charged so much for products. The only reason a Mac has fantastic design is because you are paying for it.

Coming to a different point of your arguement, you are completely wrong when you say the Price is directly proportionate to performance. Take the iRiver Clix for instance. It costs as much as the iPod Nano 3G, but has a larger screen, the best sound quality currently available on a flash player, an interface that's just as simple, if not simpler, while being more feature loaded, and even other features like flash games and a radio. And it looks downright sexy while being slightly thicker than the nano.

Now, how is the iPod nano better? Despite being the same cost? According to afforementioned rule, the nano must be significantly cheaper. Quality quite certainly not at a price. The only reason I don't own a clix is because they [iRiver] don't operate in India and finding one would have been difficult, leave alone support.

The only products for which the rule holds is the WYSIWYG type of products.

And Gautham, I agree with you. Steve Jobs is just too good to be wasted on Apple. He should take control of MS. Steve and Gates at the head of the largest software company in the world would lead to nothing short of a revolution.
 

aditya.shevade

Console Junkie
^^ OK... I don't want to argue on the quality issue, but can someone please post the research where it ways that iRiver sounds better than the iPod for all genres/frequencies.

AND.. dude, are you really saying that Steve Jobs will be better off in MS? MS sucks more than apple (if you say apple sucks that is... MS sucks anyways....)
 

Pathik

Google Bot
Plus the fact that you're probably in the safest place on four wheels and then you realise that the telephone number sized amount that you wrote on the check, which is probably equivalent to the GDP of a small country, for this car was after all, worth it. Same applies here.
Ye kuch jyada ho gaya yaar :p
 
OP
ring_wraith

ring_wraith

=--=l33t=--=
CNET reviews the iRiver Clix 2 and writes;
The good: The next generation iRiver Clix is even sleeker and slimmer than its predecessor, but offers the same unique and intuitive interface and stellar audio quality. This player comes packed with extras such as an FM radio; a voice recorder; an alarm clock; support for subscription content as well as OGG and Audible files; and photo, video, and text viewing. The Clix includes SRS Wow sound effects, it has good battery life, and it’s priced competitively. The bad: There’s no cradle or line-in recording options for the new Clix yet, and iRiver doesn’t offer an easy way to get video content for the device. The bottom line: The iRiver Clix offers the perfect blend of hot design, desirable features, and stellar sound quality. If you’re looking for an alternative to the iPod Nano, this device should top the list.”



I need to point out, a micro debate is unnecessary. Start a new thread if you want to argue it.

And I don't really know if you know, but it is generally accepted that the iPod's sound quality is not all that good.....

Apple is better than MS?

hmmm... stock quote time? Funny how so many people invest money in MS when Apple is around.
Face it. MS has revolutionized computing more times than you can count.
 

aryayush

Aspiring Novelist
@ring_wraith

You're focusing on two points which you mentioned in the first post – (1) any company could design products as great as Apple's if they charged as much; and (2) if Mac OS X were in the position that Windows is today, Windows would be just as good as Mac OS X and vice versa.

I don't want to debate with you on the second point. It's a an old argument that's been around since forever and there have been countless number of well written articles by experts on both sides of the fence, each one just as convincing as the previous one. You posted links to people saying that if Apple were in the position that Microsoft is in today, their software would be just as unusable (yes, Windows is unusable for me). I could post several links to articles from several authors who don't agree with that, if I was so inclined.

The fact remains that what you're trying to base your argument on is a hypothetical situation which no one has witnessed. How are you supposed to assume anything about it definitively? Can you say, with the same conviction you seem to have about this issue, that if India hadn't gained freedom in 1947, we would still be under British rule? Can you say yes or no with absolute certainty?

No, you cannot. You cannot make a rule which is based on the unforeseen outcome of a hypothetical situation.

What you can do is look at the facts and base your purchase decision on it. And the fact remains, no matter how many arguments you may put forth and how may scenarios you may try to draw our attention to, that Mac OS X does not have a single virus or spyware or adware or malicious application out in the wild that can harm unsuspecting users. Not even a single one. The one or two that have cropped in the seven years of its existence have been squashed faster than the time it takes to type the word "virus".

You can visit pornographic and other websites which are known to be repositories of malicious content (not that I'm advising you to) on a Mac without even the firewall turned on (though it is recommended that you do, from a security perspective) and absolutely no security related software installed and you'll remain unscathed. My Windows using friends have now made it a habit to bring potentially infected CDs (purchased from illegal hawkers) to me so that I can verify it for them.

I don't know about you but I quite enjoy this inherent freedom my Mac powers me with. Trying to cautiously sidestep the innumerable potholes and booby traps laid out for Windows users on the Internet and in the real world is now a thing of the past. No need to install and update several resource hungry security applications anymore (which aren't 100% effective anyway). I can fire up any P2P application I want and download any file I want. If it doesn't play, re-download another one and try that out. If it were a Windows PC, that second chance wouldn't have been there for the taking.

I could go on and on but I hope that, finally, you get the point. I give you your point for the sake of argument. Yes, Mac OS X would have been in the same pickle as Windows if the roles were reversed. But what's stopping you from using it now when it's not? Do you have some sort of pity for Windows? Oh, poor Windows, it is unfairly targeted by some many hackers. Let me use it to express solidarity with the platform, while I constantly try to evade all the threats that are associated with it and reinstall it every few months.

I don't get this logic. I don't understand it at all.


--------------------------------


As for point number two: You are point blank wrong.

Yes, quality comes at a price.

No, given the freedom of flexible pricing, not everyone can come up with good quality.

It just does not work that way.

As an example: Give me Adobe Photoshop, a Rs. 40,000 DSLR, take me to the most scenic place on Earth and ask me to come up with a good photograph. Now, give someone like Milind (goobimama) a Rs. 10,000 digicam, some crappy photo editing software and leave him in Goa. I can bet you anything he'll come up with a much decent picture than mine.

That's because he gets the concept of good photography and image editing and I don't – and no amount of money or resources can make me get it. Similarly, no amount of money can make an IBM come up with an iMac or an iPhone. It needs a visionary like Steve Jobs and an industrial designer like Jonathan Ive to come up with that. It needs a company that has good design ingrained in its culture.

For instance, look at Apple's website and compare it to any other company's. Be it Sony, Dell, HP, Lenovo, Acer, Asus, Toshiba – any at all. See which one is the best. The website is not a product the company is charging for. How do they manage to come up with the best one then? You can gift someone an iPhone complete with two years of service from AT&T and wrapped in a beautiful origami style gift package with a custom message faster than you can buy a single, bare bones handset from Nokia or Sony Ericsson or Motorola or Samsung.

All these companies sell their products online. Why does Apple have the most streamlined buying experience? Why are they the only company with a highly successful chain of retail stores which are all excellently designed and make money by the truckloads? Why are they the fastest growing company in the tech industry?

Because they are different from the rest and they have perfected this art of differentiation by good design and tight integration between software and hardware. Linux is free and yet the rate of adoption is so slow. Apple's software (if you consider just the software) is the most expensive in the industry because you have to buy the whole computer and yet they are selling them faster than their factories can churn them out.

All of this is because they pay attention to the tiniest of details and make sure that they get the design just right. In the entire industry, whenever they release a new product, reviewers almost always add this line, as cliché as it is, "they've designed it like only Apple can". That's the essence of my whole argument – only Apple can.

If it were just about the money, dude, every company in the industry would have had a range of premium priced products along with their low end products. This range would have had exquisite design and would be a direct competitor to Apple's products. No company likes to see Apple known as the king of good design and everyone of them would like to have a piece of that pie.

And they would... if they could. :)
 

Gigacore

Dreamweaver
1. Steve Jobs has created a illusion in people's mind (may be after the phenomenal success of iPod)
2. Its design will sure attract a teenager and some fashion addicts. But I'll will never attract someone who seeks for pro looking and high performance products.
3. Steve Jobs is in race to replace Bill's Dominance.
4. Apple is backed by fanboys, Microsoft is backed my large enterprieses and Linux is backed by OSS communities.
Zzz. . Peace plz
 
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ring_wraith

ring_wraith

=--=l33t=--=
@ Aayush, Finally. That took a while. As they say, nature will progress like it's supposed to you, just as ring_wraith will disagree with aryayush.

First off, when you mentioned that the only reason I stand by Windows is because I pity it [hypothetically, of course] I realized that you are, in all factuality, missing the whole point of the thread. The whole point of the thread is not my personal preference, but the exact inverse of your [nicely italicized] statement, only Apple can. I stand by what I said, and maintain that not just Apple can. Allow me to mention that I am glad I made you see the light on what would happen if Windows and Apple swapped places. But I will be kind enough not to rub it in your face, and I leave it at that.

Moving on to point number two, [where you dismissed my argument as "point blank wrong"] I once again stand by what I said. Apple has magnificent design only because they can afford to. I am sure you generally agree with me that the design of a product is to be credited to the team that designed it, which boils down to a bunch of individuals.

So, when you say that Apple is the only company in the world capable of designing products like they do.... you are in effect saying that Apple somehow manages to capture every design brain every university in the world has to offer.

Read that again. Once more for effect.

Can you honestly still stand by that now? Do you still live under the impression that every other company picks up employees whom Apple deems unfit? This, my friend, is quite simply, absurd. Steve Jobs is an absolute Genius, as is Jonathan Ive. I will not even make an attempt to deny that. But honestly think about it, if Apple was sans these two great individuals, would it really matter? Sounds incredulous, but do you really think that the design for the iPod and the iMac were conceived by aforementioned Geniuses sitting around a table and sketching? No, it was in fact, conceived by a team of dedicated designers, who choose to live behind the lime-light. Of course, having a very capable Design head made the process a lot simpler, but you cannot possibly think that Steve Jobs is the only person who has ever conceived a good design?

Talent is in abundance, it's just the availability of funds that allows it to run free. Some where, at this very moment, sitting somewhere in the back bench of a class he doesn't care about, is a student who is casually sketching on the back of his notepad a design that makes the iPod seem like a barbaric tool. And there are dozens more.

So your claim that only Apple has the talent to design good products is by no means justified.

Why don't other companies design amazing products? It's because of what you yourself posted earlier. There is a very small segment of people who value design over cost. A narrow margin for a better looking and easier to use product is great, but 47%? They realize that it quite unpractical to make products for a niche group, especially considering the presence of an already established company in the sector.

What these companies in effect do, is say, "Make it as cheap as possible, without making it look ghastly", while Apple says, "Make it look better than anything out there, don't bother about the production costs! ". The only example I've seen of Sony allowing their team of designers some room to maneuverer is the PS3. And we all know how pretty that looks.

I'm sure the heads of the companies you've mentioned have nightmares of iMacs laughing at their products, jeering and poking. But a quick check of their stock quote [i do seem to be using that phrase a lot] undoubtedly dispels those.

The websites? You really leave no aspect out do you? This is just an extension of them having so much money to toss around. Let's say Leela Galleria is posting an advertisement in the newspaper. Would you expect a half page ad designed keeping aesthetic value and presentability in mind, or a 4x4" spot screaming "10% off" ? Why do they bother? After all, you're not paying for it [quite the opposite, actually]. Apart from that, it just fits into their image better. I hope you get the point.

So, that concludes my retort. I do expect a reply from you, as I quite enjoy our verbal jousting, which is [thankfully] relatively free of "u suxore, apple is sh**"

and @ Giga, lol... but where's the war?
 

a_k_s_h_a_y

Dreaming
And finally at the end of the day .. steve is the winner!

Now guys common lets get out of this !

If some one brags about apple and buys them, i will tell you, let them buy ;)

If you are jealous and envious then am sorry, you are fueling apple customers pride and also apple's success !

If you are feeling sorry for those apple customers, then let me tell there are other important things to feel sorry about rater then those rich guys !
 

aryayush

Aspiring Novelist
I quite enjoy our verbal jousting, which is [thankfully] relatively free of "u suxore, apple is sh**"
So do I, which is why I take the effort to type those lengthy replies and read yours and of the likes of krazyfrog. (good post, BTW).

I might post a reply tomorrow, though at this point I'm unsure if this discussion is headed anywhere. We're at a deadlock of sorts. :)
 
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