Who says Vista is a flop????

[gxsaurav]

vista will surely roll on wid new PCs.....my opinion is that many many organisations (not private obviously) still haf win98 era PCs wid win98 as the default OS. they'll obviously get new hardware and when they do they'll get vista bundled wid it.. so its a plus point for vista!

Nah, like I have said already many times, companies usually work on 3 or 4 particular apps made for there own company. They don't need anything other then Windows 2000 SP4, just that it is no longer supported. I mean, comon...they just need to run Avaya or Finacle whole day, why do they need Vista for it? Remember, the systems in such companies are not directly connected to internet, & without internet or file sharing, no exploit can harm windows. Systems are usually behind some server firewall or router.

This thread is much like the old "Vista - Will it run or crawl thread'

 

[mediator]

well , u got me wrong here , i'm sayin that windows has a standard set of libraries that u need to download , in this case .NET , which is ~20MB n each and every .NET program uses the same library , but with linux(or any other FREE system ) , u have many options , so say a developer uses library A for (say)XML parsing , whereas some other developers use libraries , B , C , ... etc for same thing , so now while compiling programs , the user has to download a multitude of libraries that do essentially the same thing .

Ur point is quite vague. Can u elaborate it giving the comparisons in details and practical examples?

secondly it is even harder for developers to learn new libraries and for new developers who join a dev team and find out that the library that the team uses for doin their work is not the one he uses .

Here also I wud like to see some practical examples, some elaboration and some links that say such things! R u trying to say that tar files i.e the source is different for all the distros?

where are u man , u don't need to put "getch" to get the program output , heck , "getch" is not even in "Standard C++" ANd , the leading windows compiler is Microsoft's Visual C++ , turbo c++ was released in 1991 and is now extinct , today's development environments r modern windows programs with a GUI , this is MUCH better than programming in a CMD text editor and compiling by hand .

Hmmmm, I'll try MS-Visual c++ again then on windows , thanx for the acknowledgement.....But in majority of institutions they still teach u on TC3 or Borland c++ compilers. I'm not an advanced programmeur, but I find programming in linux much easier for c/c++ and java.
I have tried MS-Visual c++, but dont really remember how its output used to be like. AFAIR, even to choose/create a new file u had to take 2-3 steps and then it created a lotta bloated code which I used to erase. Neways u as an advanced programmer like MS-Visual c++ and I being an average commandline programmer like Linux C programming. I prefer not to speak on the things I dont know, in this case about the advanced graphics programming with c/c++. So for the advanced programming I hope we'll have a nice discussion when my programming level increases! For the time being please elaborate how source libraries r different for different linux distros. Please give examples for Ubuntu n fedora as i have access to them.

 

[Zeeshan Quireshi]

Hmmmm, I'll try MS-Visual c++ again then on windows , thanx for the acknowledgement.....But in majority of institutions they still teach u on TC3 or Borland c++ compilers. I'm not an advanced programmeur, but I find programming in linux much easier for c/c++ and java.
I have tried MS-Visual c++, but dont really remember how its output used to be like. AFAIR, even to choose/create a new file u had to take 2-3 steps and then it created a lotta bloated code which I used to erase. Neways u as an advanced programmer like MS-Visual c++ and I being an average commandline programmer like Linux C programming. I prefer not to speak on the things I dont know, in this case about the advanced graphics programming with c/c++. So for the advanced programming I hope we'll have a nice discussion when my programming level increases! For the time being please elaborate how source libraries r different for different linux distros. Please give examples for Ubuntu n fedora as i have access to them.

well it's like this , .NET has XML parsing functionality , .NET developers use this xml parsing library to parse XML in their apps . whereas in linux , there's no standard library , u have "libxml" , "Expat" , "Xerces" and many more librariesfor XML parsing , so say some developers use libxml , others use Exapat , etc , so when u install apps from different developers using different libraries , u'll have to download both Expat , libxml , etc libraries when compiling . getting my point naa .

in the same way it is hard for application interoperability coz mostly different libraries r notdesigned for interoperatibility with external libraries . so it's hard for developers too .

in the same way gor GUI development on linux u have , GTK(for gnome) , Qt(for KDE) , Wxwidgets , etc , so here too a developer is in a delimma , which library to use cos app written with Qt , won't render very well on gone .

Hmmmm, I'll try MS-Visual c++ again then on windows , thanx for the acknowledgement.....But in majority of institutions they still teach u on TC3 or Borland c++ compilers. I'm not an advanced programmeur, but I find programming in linux much easier for c/c++ and java.
I have tried MS-Visual c++, but dont really remember how its output used to be like. AFAIR, even to choose/create a new file u had to take 2-3 steps and then it created a lotta bloated code which I used to erase. Neways u as an advanced programmer like MS-Visual c++ and I being an average commandline programmer like Linux C programming. I prefer not to speak on the things I dont know, in this case about the advanced graphics programming with c/c++.

well that's the problem , schools teach us using TC3 or BOrland C++ compilers which r very very old , n the C++ that they teach us in not actually C++ , it's 90% C .

secondly i suggest u try Visual C++ 2005 Express Edition , it's totally free and is meant for students n enthusiasts , and NO , VC doesn't generate bloated code , if u select empty project while creating a new project it creates a blank project n u can code whatever u want . it is way better than TC

 

[mediator]

in the same way gor GUI development on linux u have , GTK(for gnome) , Qt(for KDE) , Wxwidgets , etc , so here too a developer is in a delimma , which library to use cos app written with Qt , won't render very well on gone .

I dont see it as a dilemma. But I see it as choices which is + point for any programmer. A programmer wanting to opt for GUI development in gnome will opt for GTK. Naturally he will have to learn some more if he changes to GUI development for windows or KDE.

well it's like this , .NET has XML parsing functionality , .NET developers use this xml parsing library to parse XML in their apps . whereas in linux , there's no standard library , u have "libxml" , "Expat" , "Xerces" and many more librariesfor XML parsing , so say some developers use libxml , others use Exapat , etc , so when u install apps from different developers using different libraries , u'll have to download both Expat , libxml , etc libraries when compiling . getting my point naa .

in the same way it is hard for application interoperability coz mostly different libraries r notdesigned for interoperatibility with external libraries . so it's hard for developers too .

Your point is still vague. All I understand is like this that in c++ programming, u can print a statement with "cout" and for that u have "iostream", but then whats the point of having "printf" which is included in "stdio" and then there's a dilemma for the programmer coz ur having 2 libraries providing the same functionality! Is that what u r saying? Please provide some reliable links for my better understandabilty.

 

[gxsaurav]

I dont see it as a dilemma. But I see it as choices which is + point for any programmer. A programmer wanting to opt for GUI development in gnome will opt for GTK. Naturally he will have to learn some more if he changes to GUI development for windows or KDE.

The problem here is that despite of being open source, they do not work together. You cannot run a QT app in Gnome right. Now where is the standerd here?

Your point is still vague. All I understand is like this that in c++ programming, u can print a statement with "cout" and for that u have "iostream", but then whats the point of having "printf" which is included in "stdio" and then there's a dilemma for the programmer coz ur having 2 libraries providing the same functionality! Is that what u r saying? Please provide some reliable links for my better understandabilty.

This is not what u r asking, u r getting it wrong. What he meant that there are many methods to Parse XML in Linux but none of them work together which they should.

 

[mediator]

The problem here is that despite of being open source, they do not work together. You cannot run a QT app in Gnome right. Now where is the standerd here?

I never programmed with QT but there r plenty of KDE apps I can open in Gnome, Gnome apps in Kde. Ksnapshot,gedit are my favourites...try it out urself u'll find many.

This is not what u r asking, u r getting it wrong. What he meant that there are many methods to Parse XML in Linux but none of them work together which they should.

Hmmm, but I dont see whats the problem here and y wud a programmer use different xml parsing methods all at a same time or use them all? Just like we use either cout or printf in c++, similarly one of the methods can be used to parse xml. I'm not very used to the "printf" function, so I dont use it. I only use cout. Similarly, a programmer will use only one of the xml parsing methods. So wats so disadvantageous of having different libraries and methods? It only adds to flexibilty,choices....naturally a + point for a programmer to let him decide with which method he is comfortable with.

Neways, all I want is "reliable links" to improve my knowledge about such things in linux! I tried to google but cudn't find any! May be I searched for irrelevant stuff.....so please provide some links!

 

[Zeeshan Quireshi]

I never programmed with QT but there r plenty of KDE apps I can open in Gnome, Gnome apps in Kde. Ksnapshot,gedit are my favourites...try it out urself u'll find many.


Hmmm, but I dont see whats the problem here and y wud a programmer use different xml parsing methods all at a same time or use them all? Just like we use either cout or printf in c++, similarly one of the methods can be used to parse xml. I'm not very used to the "printf" function, so I dont use it. I only use cout. Similarly, a programmer will use only one of the xml parsing methods. So wats so disadvantageous of having different libraries and methods? It only adds to flexibilty,choices....naturally a + point for a programmer to let him decide with which method he is comfortable with.

Neways, all I want is "reliable links" to improve my knowledge about such things in linux! I tried to google but cudn't find any! May be I searched for irrelevant stuff.....so please provide some links!

well man u're actually not running Qt apps natively in gnome , u're downloading KDE libraries n asking them to interface with the X windows system and display the data in ur gnome session , it's the same way round for gtk apps on KDE .

nyways , in both situations u have to download extra libraries which is my point , in windows u have to download(if any) only a smal standard set of libraries , but in linux , due to the vast amount of libraries , u have to download a hell lot more libraries .

btw , my earlier point meant , like u use app ABC which uses Expat for XML parsing , n u also use app XYZ, which uses libxml for XML parsing , so if u wanna install both app ABC and XYZ u'll have to download both expat and libxml , which in turn increases the download size and hard disk space usage .

so while using KDE app in gnome u hv to download approx 100MB n vice versa , i'm not criticising choice but i'm saying there must be a standard for better functionality .

 

[mediator]

well man u're actually not running Qt apps natively in gnome , u're downloading KDE libraries n asking them to interface with the X windows system and display the data in ur gnome session , it's the same way round for gtk apps on KDE .

U mean kde libraries having gnome support? If thats the point then wats wrong with that?

nyways , in both situations u have to download extra libraries which is my point , in windows u have to download(if any) only a smal standard set of libraries , but in linux , due to the vast amount of libraries , u have to download a hell lot more libraries .

How many window/desktop managers does windows have? And how many window managers linux have? So its quite natural for linux having plenty of windows/desktop managers installed to have plenty of libraries. A user certainly wont be doing his task in all the managers one by one. He gets accustomed to one and only uses libraries for that. The same goes for a programmer, if he likes developing apps in gnome then he'll be using gtk libraries. Its just a branch. U can develop for kde, gnome etc anyone. So wats the problem here?

I hope I got ur point correct!?

btw , my earlier point meant , like u use app ABC which uses Expat for XML parsing , n u also use app XYZ, which uses libxml for XML parsing , so if u wanna install both app ABC and XYZ u'll have to download both expat and libxml , which in turn increases the download size and hard disk space usage .

If libxml and expat belong to different development environment then its quite obvious that u have to dld both to run the abc n xyz apps.

so while using KDE app in gnome u hv to download approx 100MB n vice versa , i'm not criticising choice but i'm saying there must be a standard for better functionality .

I understand, but u must understand too that kde n gnome r too different developers and its impossible for developers to have a conforming set. I read about the "standard set" theory in software engineering book, but its just a theory and its practically almost impossible! U can urself see that there's not much conformity between tc,borland c++ and gcc compilers and may be MS-visual c++ compiler too. Some basics r same but when it comes to higher programming then u have to open up the reference manuals for each.

I hope this time I got right n this is wat u wanted to discuss! Right?

 

[Zeeshan Quireshi]

How many window/desktop managers does windows have? And how many window managers linux have? So its quite natural for linux having plenty of windows/desktop managers installed to have plenty of libraries. A user certainly wont be doing his task in all the managers one by one. He gets accustomed to one and only uses libraries for that. The same goes for a programmer, if he likes developing apps in gnome then he'll be using gtk libraries. Its just a branch. U can develop for kde, gnome etc anyone. So wats the problem here?

yeah , but herein lies the problem , due to the extremely high number of choices of desktop managers , sound systems , window managers , parsing libraries , etc , it becomes very difficult to make a program to run uniformly of all linux distros , a program which might run extremely fast on one distro might just not even start in another .

hope , u get my point y it's difficult to deploy commercial apps on linux . it might not be a big thing for very large enterprises , with a huge dev team , but it still is for medium and small businesses to deploy their apps on linux.

 

[mediator]

yeah , but herein lies the problem , due to the extremely high number of choices of desktop managers , sound systems , window managers , parsing libraries , etc , it becomes very difficult to make a program to run uniformly of all linux distros , a program which might run extremely fast on one distro might just not even start in another .

Nah thats not true. The unformity is there if u compile an app via tar file i.e the source that gives u much better performace. As u must be knowing an app compiled on ur system gives u much better performance than an app compiled on some host machine and ported to the target machine.

hope , u get my point y it's difficult to deploy commercial apps on linux . it might not be a big thing for very large enterprises , with a huge dev team , but it still is for medium and small businesses to deploy their apps on linux.

I got ur point, but similarly as companies decide for which OS they shud develop an app for, similarly they have to decide for which window manager they have to conform with n develop for. They can develop the core base part that is commandline like for "nmap" that is independent of such window managers and then develop a front-end like "nmapfe" simply for it! But I dont think that there cannot exist any apps that can be created independently of either gtk or qt! So I dont see it as a problem either like u said for small or big companies!

 

[gxsaurav]

Nah thats not true. The unformity is there if u compile an app via tar file i.e the source that gives u much better performace. As u must be knowing an app compiled on ur system gives u much better performance than an app compiled on some host machine and ported to the target machine.

Yes it is good. But this is the only point which makes Linux a flop with general users in desktop market. They are not gonna learn how to do this.

Back to the topic plz

 

[mediator]

^Again, tar file is no reason for that "flop in ur opinion". U already have rpms and debs created outta those tar files! So nobody is advising u to learn it. In fact I myself install via rpms and deb via most easy "add/remove package" that is perfect for an average joe!

 

[shantanu]

who is this average joe ?? hehe

 

[mediator]

Hehe, I dunno its a funny term I learnt here! What I learnt is that there r different type of joes!

 

[shantanu]

WOW!! why there arent lee or loes only joes lol

 

[amitava82]

here is a wiki on Avg Joe. *en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_Joe

 

[Zeeshan Quireshi]

^Again, tar file is no reason for that "flop in ur opinion". U already have rpms and debs created outta those tar files! So nobody is advising u to learn it. In fact I myself install via rpms and deb via most easy "add/remove package" that is perfect for an average joe!

the tar , containing the source will compile only when it is compatible with the current system config and the current system has all the libraries it needs to link with , so compilation is the major problem coz the source written for one library is not compatible with other ilbraries . so app written in GTK will not compile in a Qt environment , unless the whole Qt libraries r downloaded , which defeats the whole purpose .

 

[mediator]

I asked for source to read such things! U still haven't provided any source. What system configuration r u discussing about? Can u elaborate?

And theoretically an application like K-app_name wont compile perfectly in the "G-environment", though I haven't tried such a thing. But can u tell y an application like nmap and nmap-fe can be compiled in k environment and then runs smoothly in g environment?

So please provide some links now.

 

[Zeeshan Quireshi]

I asked for source to read such things! U still haven't provided any source. What system configuration r u discussing about? Can u elaborate?

And theoretically an application like K-app_name wont compile perfectly in the "G-environment", though I haven't tried such a thing. But can u tell y an application like nmap and nmap-fe can be compiled in k environment and then runs smoothly in g environment?

So please provide some links now.

the reason these apps run r becuse they r NOT running in G environment actually , when u compile some software , say K app , to compile it u download K libraries even while workin in G environment so u download a lotta external libraries , which are of K environment and these libraries HELP k app run in G environment .

and no , there's no source for such common programming concepts , it's common-sense in programming that u can't link with a library without actually having the library installed . ( mean man how do u refer to something on ur system that doesn't exist )

 

[mediator]

the reason these apps run r becuse they r NOT running in G environment actually , when u compile some software , say K app , to compile it u download K libraries even while workin in G environment so u download a lotta external libraries , which are of K environment and these libraries HELP k app run in G environment .

and no , there's no source for such common programming concepts , it's common-sense in programming that u can't link with a library without actually having the library installed . ( mean man how do u refer to something on ur system that doesn't exist )

Thats y I already said that even though the "standardisation" is talked about, at the end its just a theoretical concept. The K n G are diff. developer groups and thats might be having their own set of libraries. And desktop environments r the first thing which a user gets ackowledged about in Linux. So the programmer wont be insane enough to compile k apps in g environment.
There r many Linux users/programmers in this forums and through out the world who r using different desktop environments and some have installed only one! They compile apps meant for either k in k or g in g! Therefore they dont get a "lotta libraries" installed like we r discussing! So its wrong to say "linux is down becoz of that"!

And I asked for source becoz I'm not aware of this different library thing in kde and gnome. I heard about it the first time n never cared to ponder about it. There r many apps I installed in ubuntu which had gnome then. It never distinguished if the app shud have g or k libraries. May be its the transparency there. But I assure u that almost all of them compiled without any library issue! Since we talk about standardisation then there might be a lotta standardisation between k n g apps tooo. But just like the conformation issue that exists between various c compilers, there might exist some issue between the k n g developments too. So since u cudn't answer very well as to why non K_apps or non g_apps like nmap cud compile well irrespective of the k or g and then don't give any problems and I having a doubt about the whole issue, then its better to give links!

So, I dont think Linux is down (as in ur opinion) just becoz of the library issue. Library issue will quite obviously occur (like u said "common sense says") in the graphics development. The common sense then also says that the issue will not occur in the base development above which the GUI works!