Volatge Stabilizer vs Surge Protector vs UPS. What to buy?

[kARTechnology]

Best is to start with basics. A surge (ie lightning) seeks earth ground. A best connection from cloud to earth was a wooden church steeple. But wood is not a superior conductor. A surge current (ie 20,000 amps) creates a high voltage in wood. 20,000 amps times a high voltage is high energy. Church steeple damaged.

Franklin connected the surge to earth. A best connection was a lightning rod and wire to earth ground. A surge current creates a near zero voltage on that connection. 20,000 amps times a near zero voltage is near zero energy. No damage.

Lightning (or 440 volts) far down the street seeks earth ground. A best connection to earth is via your appliances. Appliances are not a good conductor. So a surge current may create a high voltage in that appliance. Current times a high voltage is high energy. Appliance damaged.

Connect each incoming wire to single point earth ground. A best connection is an earth ground located where all wires enter the building. Any utility wire connected directly to this ground has best protection; near zero voltage created. Other utility wires that cannot connect directly must make this same connection via a 'whole house' protector. That surge current times near zero voltage (due to a short connection to earth) means near zero energy inside the building. No appliance damage.

Essential is how any incoming utility wire connects to earth. Best is a hardwired connection (ie cable). Other incoming wires (AC electric, telephone) must make the same connection via a protector. All incoming wires must connect as short as possible to the same (single point) earth ground.

A utility demonstrates examples of single point ground (preferred and right) and an example of defective earthing (wrong):
Tech Tip 08 -Duke Energy

If the surge current (ie 440 volt fault) is earthed BEFORE entering the building, then it does not hunt for earth destructively via the motherboard. Or dishwasher, RCDs, clocks, TV, or voltage stabilizer. Described is how to avert that one anomaly. A current that hunts for earth ground destructively via appliances. Also described is how to avert another anomaly. A current that hunts for earth ground destructively via the building. Both anomalies are averted by the quality of and shortest distance to earth.

okay for a appliance there is a phase(live,hot) and a neutral, and a ground (the big pin in a 3 pin plug)
so the big pin in a 3 pin plug goes to the soil woth copper plate and coal/something to prevent electric shock

now i should dug deep and put another copper plate and do all those stuff and where should i connect that wire to? the phase? (sry the above thing is very difficult to undestand)
if i connect it to phase wont i get a huge current bill as all the power gets drained to the earth itself?

 

[westom]

okay for a appliance there is a phase(live,hot) and a neutral, and a ground (the big pin in a 3 pin plug)
so the big pin in a 3 pin plug goes to the soil woth copper plate and coal/something to prevent electric shock

First appreciate a point repeatedly made. Safety ground, neutral, and earth ground should all connect together. And all three wires are electrically different. You have assume electricity is same at both ends of a wire - a popular myth. How much different? Numbers too complex for this discussion say how much. But understand that that neither neutral wire (ie on a receptacle) nor safety ground (also on that receptacle) are electrically same as earth ground. Despite much hearsay that says otherwise.

Critically important was another number. A connection to earth ground must be low impedance (ie 'less than 3 meters'). That number ('less than 3 meters') also says a receptacle safety ground is not an earth ground.

Second, earth ground electrode at your service entrance performs a critically important human safety function. A function defined by safety codes. Surge protection means using same earthing electrode to also do transistor safety. Single point earth ground would be the existing rod or plate electrode installed for human safety. And may even need be upgraded also do transistor safety. Upgraded? One reason is that all connections must be so short - low impedance - ie 'less than 3 meters'.

Another previously posted sentence says what an earth ground connection and protector do. Any wire inside a utility cable that can connect direct to earth makes a low impedance connection with a bare copper or insulated green wire. Cable TV and satellite dish are examples. Wires that cannot connect directly to earth (ie phase) must make that same 'short as possible' connection via a 'whole house' protector. Previously described:

Any utility wire connected directly to this ground has best protection; near zero voltage created. Other utility wires that cannot connect directly must make this same connection via a 'whole house' protector.

What does a protector do? Makes a connection to earth that would otherwise be made better by a wire. So that normal power does not conduct to earth. And so that destructive transients connect directly to earth. The wire connection or protector connection doing same as Franklin demonstrated in 1752.

Third, many have difficulty unlearning popular urban myths. Why would a phase wire, connected to earth via a protector, create a huge current bill as power gets drained to earth? It doesn't. Because the effective type protector performs contrary to what hearsay and advertising have taught. Only a transient current flows to earth via the protector. An example of unlearning what hearsay said a protector does.

Therefore, best protection means a surge connects to earth via a wire. So that the transient does not go hunting inside. A protector makes a direct connection to earth when a wire (ie phase) cannot connect directly. Earth ground, neutral wire, safety ground, computer motherboard ground, and computer chassis ground are all interconnected. And all are electrically different. Many unfortunately assume wires are electrically same at both ends; another myth that must be unlearned.

And finally, a protector must be sized to even connect direct lightning strikes to earth; without damage. A minimal 'whole house' protector starts at 50,000 amps. Any protector that fails during a surge provided no transistor protection; only disconnected as fast as possible to avert a house fire (human protection). An important number for selecting a protector: at least 50,000 amps so that a protector does not fail. And a 'less than 3 meter' connection to earth.

 

[kARTechnology]

First appreciate a point repeatedly made. Safety ground, neutral, and earth ground should all connect together. And all three wires are electrically different. You have assume electricity is same at both ends of a wire - a popular myth. How much different? Numbers too complex for this discussion say how much. But understand that that neither neutral wire (ie on a receptacle) nor safety ground (also on that receptacle) are electrically same as earth ground. Despite much hearsay that says otherwise.

Critically important was another number. A connection to earth ground must be low impedance (ie 'less than 3 meters'). That number ('less than 3 meters') also says a receptacle safety ground is not an earth ground.

Second, earth ground electrode at your service entrance performs a critically important human safety function. A function defined by safety codes. Surge protection means using same earthing electrode to also do transistor safety. Single point earth ground would be the existing rod or plate electrode installed for human safety. And may even need be upgraded also do transistor safety. Upgraded? One reason is that all connections must be so short - low impedance - ie 'less than 3 meters'.

Another previously posted sentence says what an earth ground connection and protector do. Any wire inside a utility cable that can connect direct to earth makes a low impedance connection with a bare copper or insulated green wire. Cable TV and satellite dish are examples. Wires that cannot connect directly to earth (ie phase) must make that same 'short as possible' connection via a 'whole house' protector. Previously described:

What does a protector do? Makes a connection to earth that would otherwise be made better by a wire. So that normal power does not conduct to earth. And so that destructive transients connect directly to earth. The wire connection or protector connection doing same as Franklin demonstrated in 1752.

Third, many have difficulty unlearning popular urban myths. Why would a phase wire, connected to earth via a protector, create a huge current bill as power gets drained to earth? It doesn't. Because the effective type protector performs contrary to what hearsay and advertising have taught. Only a transient current flows to earth via the protector. An example of unlearning what hearsay said a protector does.

Therefore, best protection means a surge connects to earth via a wire. So that the transient does not go hunting inside. A protector makes a direct connection to earth when a wire (ie phase) cannot connect directly. Earth ground, neutral wire, safety ground, computer motherboard ground, and computer chassis ground are all interconnected. And all are electrically different. Many unfortunately assume wires are electrically same at both ends; another myth that must be unlearned.

And finally, a protector must be sized to even connect direct lightning strikes to earth; without damage. A minimal 'whole house' protector starts at 50,000 amps. Any protector that fails during a surge provided no transistor protection; only disconnected as fast as possible to avert a house fire (human protection). An important number for selecting a protector: at least 50,000 amps so that a protector does not fail. And a 'less than 3 meter' connection to earth.

Thank you sir for the reply!!!
Now I understood that if whole house surge protection is installed, the surge instead of hunting for the ground in the appliances directly goes to the ground via a wire

So if it should be within 3 meters,
It won't be effective as I am on 2 nd f f floor

Now if I connect the phase to the ground earth, the energy won't drain as long as it is in the limits( something like 270v) after that only it drains.. Is this correct?

I would like to see a diagram how it should be wired. I have a three phase connection.

 

[westom]

It won't be effective as I am on 2 nd f f floor

Now if I connect the phase to the ground earth, the energy won't drain as long as it is in the limits( something like 270v) after that only it drains.. Is this correct?

Objective is to make that connection to earth many times shorter than to anything else. A protector connected to earth from the second floor would be less effective.

This type protector remains open circuit just like a switch. Current conducts when (for example) 230 VAC phase exceeds something like 500 volts. Sometimes called its let-through voltage in manufacturer specs. 230 volt appliances must withstand over 600 volt transients without damage. Internal protection in each appliance would not be overwhelmed.

Manufacturer of a 'whole house' protector will define how to connect it. Once installed, each phase has its own (part of that) protector that connects short to earth ground. Good installation (beyond manufacturer directions) is to carefully route a wire to earth with no sharp bends, not inside metallic conduit, no splices, of course as short as possible, and separated as much as possible from other non-grounding wires. Manufacturers include ABB, Keison, Siemens. and Aelgroup to name but a few. As noted previously, that protector typically is rated at least 50,000 amps.

 

[kARTechnology]

Objective is to make that connection to earth many times shorter than to anything else. A protector connected to earth from the second floor would be less effective.

This type protector remains open circuit just like a switch. Current conducts when (for example) 230 VAC phase exceeds something like 500 volts. Sometimes called its let-through voltage in manufacturer specs. 230 volt appliances must withstand over 600 volt transients without damage. Internal protection in each appliance would not be overwhelmed.

Manufacturer of a 'whole house' protector will define how to connect it. Once installed, each phase has its own (part of that) protector that connects short to earth ground. Good installation (beyond manufacturer directions) is to carefully route a wire to earth with no sharp bends, not inside metallic conduit, no splices, of course as short as possible, and separated as much as possible from other non-grounding wires. Manufacturers include ABB, Keison, Siemens. and Aelgroup to name but a few. As noted previously, that protector typically is rated at least 50,000 amps.

Thanks, I have enquired in my locality and they said they will only do the installation...
Could you please tell me the approximate cost

After installing this, can I run tv and av receiver without a stabilizer right?
But this won't protect from low voltages right?

I discovered with My electrician that in my house the three phase connection,
Only the main bedroom ac was given to a phase.

Heaters and other guest bedroom ac on one phase and
tv, kitchen appliances, inverter on one phase

 

[westom]

After installing this, can I run tv and av receiver without a stabilizer right?
But this won't protect from low voltages right?

TV and AV receiver already have voltage stabilization internally. So that incandescent bulbs can dim even to 50% intensity and not trouble those elecronics. Low voltage is not harmful to electronics.

A 'whole hosue' protector may cost as much as £80. Expensive part is the electrician who must be paid for getting there as well as doing the work.

All three phases power appliances that need protection. One 'whole house' protector, properly earthed, will protect all three phases from a rare and typically destructive transient.

 

[kARTechnology]

@westom what happens when lightning strikes an aeroplane? Saw this recently on tv

And you do not seem belonging to India... Or Am I wrong?
Cause you gave the price in euros

 

[westom]

@westom what happens when lightning strikes an aeroplane? Saw this recently on tv

A plane is still in an electrical current path. One incoming and another outgoing path always exist. In the UK, a glider was struck. Current went from wingtip to wingtip. Causing a failure where a component could not safely conduct that current. Causing wing failure.

In the early days of the Boeing 707, one was struck over Maryland. Due to a design mistake, current flow in a wrong spot caused an explosion in a fuel tank.

Planes are routinely struck. An incoming and outgoing path is always via better conductive materials that must never stop, block, or absorb that energy. A typical example shows a connection to earth that causes no damage:
NWS Pueblo, CO

Best is to visit electrical supply houses. Get their prices. Or simply search web sites of serious electrical supply companies (GE, Siemens, ABB, Eaton, Clipsal, etc) to learn what each offers for your venue and local safety codes. Of course, direct most attention to what does the protection. It is not a protector. It is the quality of and connection to (the art of) a single point earth ground. Far more important is where hundreds of thousands of joules must dissipate - harmlessly.

 

[whitestar_999]

@westom,isn't hundreds of thousands of joules destructive surges are beyond the capability of 440v.here we don't get typical lightning storms & most cases of over voltage occurs due to short circuiting of overhead street power lines which at max can introduce 440v.

 

[westom]

@westom,isn't hundreds of thousands of joules destructive surges are beyond the capability of 440v.

I don't understand the question. Why are hundreds of thousands of joules beyond the capability of a system designed to deliver much higher energy levels?

Lightning has been the example of a typical surge. Other sources include linemen mistakes, stray cars, and grid faults.

 

[kARTechnology]

@westom,isn't hundreds of thousands of joules destructive surges are beyond the capability of 440v.here we don't get typical lightning storms & most cases of over voltage occurs due to short circuiting of overhead street power lines which at max can introduce 440v.

+1 street power lines fall regularly in village areas. thats what im saying. stabilizers dont protect from this high irrish current, westom says any surge conditions apply) can be diverted by installing whole house surge protection,

how to protect dish and local cable broadband, telephones??????
I use a FTTc connection so if the suge or lightning hits the FTTC box then wont all computers/routers be destroyed? i recently ad a look at those FTTC boxes and they hd only L and N, no G, no professional circuit (lan switch adapters and a battery (7.2Ah) charging circuit)

 

[whitestar_999]

I don't understand the question. Why are hundreds of thousands of joules beyond the capability of a system designed to deliver much higher energy levels?

Lightning has been the example of a typical surge. Other sources include linemen mistakes, stray cars, and grid faults.

without going into the details i can assure you that in India grid faults,stray cars & linemen mistakes can never result in such a situation.almost all such situations in India occur because of overload on transformers or touching of overhead street lines because of wind/tree collapse.in all these situations max voltage possible is 440v since that is the limiting voltage at which step-down transformers work in India in residential areas.i don't see how hundreds of thousands of joules can be delivered by a system in which max potential difference between any two points can not be more than 440v.of course installation of a whole house protection system is the ideal solution but i am just wondering if simply using a decent surge protector with,say ~2500 joule rating,would have prevented the damage by a 440v voltage surge.

 

[kARTechnology]

without going into the details i can assure you that in India grid faults,stray cars & linemen mistakes can never result in such a situation.almost all such situations in India occur because of overload on transformers or touching of overhead street lines because of wind/tree collapse.in all these situations max voltage possible is 440v since that is the limiting voltage at which step-down transformers work in India in residential areas.i don't see how hundreds of thousands of joules can be delivered by a system in which max potential difference between any two points can not be more than 440v.of course installation of a whole house protection system is the ideal solution but i am just wondering if simply using a decent surge protector with,say ~2500 joule rating,would have prevented the damage by a 440v voltage surge.

See the above posts to know what happened. How can I put surge protecter to ac?? Like a 4KVA surge protector?

Really? If you say surge protectors, say belkin gives you assurance that it will cover damages but see how many cases on net stating that it didn't have give them the money or product replacement... That's what my fear is in India I doubt where is is HQ and how I will Send to it on damage!!

 

[gagan_kumar]

Best is to start with basics. A surge (ie lightning) seeks earth ground. A best connection from cloud to earth was a wooden church steeple. But wood is not a superior conductor. A surge current (ie 20,000 amps) creates a high voltage in wood. 20,000 amps times a high voltage is high energy. Church steeple damaged.

Franklin connected the surge to earth. A best connection was a lightning rod and wire to earth ground. A surge current creates a near zero voltage on that connection. 20,000 amps times a near zero voltage is near zero energy. No damage.

Lightning (or 440 volts) far down the street seeks earth ground. A best connection to earth is via your appliances. Appliances are not a good conductor. So a surge current may create a high voltage in that appliance. Current times a high voltage is high energy. Appliance damaged.

Connect each incoming wire to single point earth ground. A best connection is an earth ground located where all wires enter the building. Any utility wire connected directly to this ground has best protection; near zero voltage created. Other utility wires that cannot connect directly must make this same connection via a 'whole house' protector. That surge current times near zero voltage (due to a short connection to earth) means near zero energy inside the building. No appliance damage.

Essential is how any incoming utility wire connects to earth. Best is a hardwired connection (ie cable). Other incoming wires (AC electric, telephone) must make the same connection via a protector. All incoming wires must connect as short as possible to the same (single point) earth ground.

A utility demonstrates examples of single point ground (preferred and right) and an example of defective earthing (wrong):
Tech Tip 08 -Duke Energy

If the surge current (ie 440 volt fault) is earthed BEFORE entering the building, then it does not hunt for earth destructively via the motherboard. Or dishwasher, RCDs, clocks, TV, or voltage stabilizer. Described is how to avert that one anomaly. A current that hunts for earth ground destructively via appliances. Also described is how to avert another anomaly. A current that hunts for earth ground destructively via the building. Both anomalies are averted by the quality of and shortest distance to earth.

did any one understood this?

 

[whitestar_999]

i was thinking about your question in the 1st post(for tv/pc/AVR/woofer etc not AC).usually surge protectors are not needed for heavy electrical appliances like 4KVA ACs & maybe it was the fault of your voltage stabilizer not doing its job properly(like in case of your fridge).i never took into account belkin's claim of compensation for loss but just the fact that a ~2000 joule rating surge protector might be able to save your tv/pc.as per principles surge introduces a large amount of energy in the system & this amount is directly proportional to the amount of current introduced(lightning which is huge) or in your case touching between 2 phases one of which is at 220v(max for indian homes).this type of potential difference should not be able to produce the kind of energy seen in lightening strikes(where thousands of ampere of current is introduced into the system) hence my thought that a surge protector might have saved your tv/pc.

 

[kARTechnology]

did any one understood this?

Not fully but little

 

[kARTechnology]

i was thinking about your question in the 1st post(for tv/pc/AVR/woofer etc not AC).usually surge protectors are not needed for heavy electrical appliances like 4KVA ACs & maybe it was the fault of your voltage stabilizer not doing its job properly(like in case of your fridge).i never took into account belkin's claim of compensation for loss but just the fact that a ~2000 joule rating surge protector might be able to save your tv/pc.as per principles surge introduces a large amount of energy in the system & this amount is directly proportional to the amount of current introduced(lightning which is huge) or in your case touching between 2 phases one of which is at 220v(max for indian homes).this type of potential difference should not be able to produce the kind of energy seen in lightening strikes(where thousands of ampere of current is introduced into the system) hence my thought that a surge protector might have saved your tv/pc.

You mean 2 ton ac needs no stabilizer? 2 of my acs mobo was fried. and so was the neighbors in the street. Even street lights bursted giving huge amount of light/spark. My tv( now completely irreparable)
Yes 220v is maximum but when 2 phases touch? 460v
Normally now I measure with volt meter I get 240-260v
I saw in my electrical distribution website of AP. They have put in faq that they will install some devices on request to arrest surges.

In villages voltage will be so low that even inverters can't run. That's why luminous brought the Sakthi charge inverter( can work in very low voltages and high voltages)

 

[harshilsharma63]

did any one understood this?

Yes, I did.

 

[whitestar_999]

you don't add voltages like 220+220 in normal home setup.current flows because of potential difference so if point A(220v) is connected to point B(220v) no current will flow.in your case short circuit happened because point A(220v) touched point B(-220v) creating a short circuit with a potential difference of 440v(220-{-220}) & passing through your home introducing a large amount of current.my point was that if a voltage stabilizer can protect fridge which draws much less power than AC then by same logic a voltage stabilizer should be able to protect AC because during surges the appliance with lesser power requirement will be at greater risk.

 

[westom]

To answer some questions.
Even 4KVA appliances have electronics. Everything, even dimmer switches and RCDs, need that protection. What most needs that protection during a surge? Smoke detectors.

In early days, clocks with electric motors were surge damaged. Manufacturers increased protection inside electric clocks to exceed 4000 volts. That was before homes installed a 'whole house' protector.

Best protection for the incoming cable TV and satellite dish is only a wire that is low impedance ('less than 3 meters') to an earthing electrode. Telephone wires cannot connect directly. So those wires are earthed, instead, via a protector.

Many who have learned about protectors only from advertising are most easily confused. Because they must unlearn what advertising has taught. Advertising would have you believe a protector does protection. It does not. A protector only does a connection to ground when a bare wire cannot make that same connection.

Best component inside an AC protector is the MOV. But this component has excessive capacitance for telephones. So a similar 'whole house' protector for telephones (or DSL) features a different technology (and lower voltage). In 1900, gas discharge tubes were used. Today, that telco protector will often be a semiconductor device.

A telephone protector and earth ground wire for cable do same protection as a 'whole house' protector on AC mains. If any wire inside any incoming cable does not make that connection to earth, then all household protection is compromised. If any of those connections connects to a different earth ground, then again, protection is compromised (as demonstrated by a utility application note).

In every case, protection is not about the protector. Protection is always about what should result in the most questions: single point earth ground. Line faults (ie high voltage falling on lower voltage wires to a house) are also made irrelevant by a connection to and quality of the earth ground.

Listed previously was a minimum number for the 'whole house' protector: 50,000 amps. That means a direct lightning strike or other surge (ie line short or fault) should not even damage the protector. If your protector is damaged, then a new one should have a higher current number (ie 100,000 amps or 200,000 amps). Protectors are only effective when they do not fail; when properly sized.

A 2000 joule surge is quite small. Surges that might not even damage TVs and PCs (due to superior internal proetction) can destroy a grossly undersized protector. Then a naive consumer assumed "its sacrifice" provided protection. It did not. A surge too tiny to damage a TV or PC also destroys a grossly undersized protector.

When discussing destructive surges, energy numbers can be hundreds of thousands of joules. What determines whether energy dissipates harmlessly? Single point earth ground. Quality of the earth ground determines protection during one surge. Size of a protector (in thousands of amps) determines 'system' life expectancy over many surges.

And so the #1 point. Most assume a protector does protection. What is taught by advertising must be unlearned. Protectors do not do protection. Earth ground is where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. Protectors are simple science. Art of protection is the earthing system.