The official thread for any and all discussion related to Apple Inc.

[aryayush]

The practice of unlocking phones is not illegal in India (and in most other parts of the world too).

Fun? Having a device crash, get stuck in a rebooting loop, and having to redo everything you did is fun?

Funny how it doesn't seem like fun when it happens on Windows..... no, no... there it is an irrevocably obvious sign of how sucky Windows is.

If the iPhone crashes, you suddenly burst my bubble.

You miss one crucial point, my dear friend: the iPhone is neither officially available nor supported in India. It is locked to an American carrier and has to be unlocked using completely unsupported procedures put into place by unauthorised hackers using unofficial tools to make it work in India.

Thankfully, the hackers happen to be rather skilled at what they do and therefore, the risks are at a minimum and it is quite possible to use the iPhone in India and have it perform stably.

I, however, didn't buy the iPhone unofficially because I wanted stable performance. I don't even have much use for a mobile phone. I bought the phone primarily because I wanted to be on the cutting edge. Even when I was buying it, I was not only prepared but was actually looking forward to restoring, unlocking and jailbreaking it myself. I wanted to try out the latest beta firmwares from Apple before everyone else gets to have a chance to use them, install the best applications, etc.

My iPhone didn't crap out due to some problem with the phone. The problem was with one of the many unsupported beta applications I had installed. I was prepared for that eventuality and that won't stop me have a go at it again. Last time, I jailbroke and unlocked it using a less than ideal method. This time, I'm using the best one available.

This is fun for a geek (by a layman's definition) like me.

Having to maintain the upkeep of a legally purchased, publicly available and supported operating system from the largest software company in the world and tolerate its frequent crashes and error-proneness is not fun at all. If Mac OS X completely crashed on me someday and I had to reinstall the whole thing, you won't find me declaring that fun at all. In fact, I was pretty miffed at Apple yesterday when the official solution for a little problem I had was to reboot Mac OS X and declared it quite publicly on Twitter. It's pretty much a routine solution on Windows and no one even notices it when they're told to restart Windows because no icons would show up on their desktop or Internet Explorer won't open any webpage.

I may not be an ideal person, but I think I know how to differentiate right from wrong and I hope the difference is clear to you as well now.

 

[iMav]

using the iphone with any carrier other than contractual carrier is a breach of terms very much like installing the osx on non-apple hardware u know this as good as i do, so cut ur holier than thou attitude

 

[ray|raven]

^Yes.

And according to your point, even installing Mac OS X on a pc , is fine in india.
Then why do the mods allow this topic to live, while they dont let us to discuss abt Mac OS X on pc?

 

[aryayush]

There is a difference. You're not installing a legally purchased copy of Mac OS X on a PC. You're downloading a patched one off the Internet (even if you do buy a legal copy, which no one does).

So yeah, you're doing something that is illegal and punishable by law if you install Mac OS X on a PC, we're not. Stop trying to play spoilsport.

------------------

iPhone users: Legality debatable

Absolutely must-bookmark link. It has links to all firmware files (freely and legally downloadable from Apple's own website) and instructions on how to do all sorts of crazy things with your iPhone.

They don't help you with the illegal stuff though, like getting the 2.0 beta firmware. I hope the naysayers and cynics can see the fine line between legality and illegality through this example.

 

[ring_wraith]

@aayush, that still sounds funky to me. Don't you have to re-copy all your songs, contacts et al when you restore the iPhone?

That's not fun. Not even to a geek.

I personally enjoy modding my PSP, which also runs on an unofficial firmware unauthorised by Sony, and I use several unofficial apps and not once has it forced me to restore everything. And even if it did, I wouldn't call it fun for sure.

-==-Added after reading latest post-==-

Apple allows people to freely and legally modify their firmware? That's open-source if I'm not mistaken. Kudos to them if that's true.

 

[ray|raven]

Fine. Agreed. Installing OS X is illegal.

Now , what about breaking the contract you made with Apple and AT&T when you bought it?

I'm not playing spoilsport, I'm just asking you why an equally illegal(In My Opinion) topic is let to run.

And if you still think, i'm just spoiling your fun, please say so in the next post and you wont hear from me on this topic again.

Cheers.

 

[iMav]

cmon arya dont run around the bush u know its illegal

 

[ring_wraith]

Okay, I actually went through the License Agreement of the iPhone Software and have come to the conclusion that unlocking the iPhone is indeed, illegal.

Apple states that when you purchase the iPhone, you own only the iPhone, while Apple still owns the software. You only purchase a license to use the software. Therefore, this can by no means be deemed as open-source.

This is exactly opposite to any Linux distro. When you obtain [can't say purchase] a distro, it becomes your property and you are completely free to modify it, and re-distribute the modified or un-modified software.

As you know, any software that is not open source cannot be legally modified. Unlocking the iPhone involves modification of the iPhone's firmware, which is, as said above, illegal. If there was an unlocking method which involved the use of only hardware, then it would be legal as the iPhone itself is your property and you may do as you see fit with it.

@aayush, the link you provided above to allow iPhone users to download the firmware files is only to felicitate restoring the iPhone should there arise a problem [like in your case]. It by no means is meant to provide you with the files so that you may modify them. Exactly like Sony providing the firmware updates.

 

[ray|raven]

Okay, I actually went through the License Agreement of the iPhone Software and have come to the conclusion that unlocking the iPhone is indeed, illegal.

Apple states that when you purchase the iPhone, you own only the iPhone, while Apple still owns the software. You only purchase a license to use the software. Therefore, this can by no means be deemed as open-source.

This is exactly opposite to any Linux distro. When you obtain [can't say purchase] a distro, it becomes your property and you are completely free to modify it.

As you know, any software that is not open source cannot be legally modified. Unlocking the iPhone involves modification of the iPhone's firmware, which is, as said above, illegal. If there was an unlocking method which involved the use of only hardware, then it would be legal as the iPhone itself is your property and you may do as you see fit with it.

Thank you for the detailed analysis!
Could you please post a source to where you got the license?

Btw, Just FYI, you can modify GPL'ed code as long as you acknowledge the original coder.

 

[ring_wraith]

Even if you can modify it, the original coder/owner has to be fine with it. And news flash, Apple and AT&T are not.

Source :
*www.apple.com/legal/sla/

 

[ray|raven]

^Thanx.

 

[FilledVoid]

There is a difference. You're not installing a legally purchased copy of Mac OS X on a PC. You're downloading a patched one off the Internet (even if you do buy a legal copy, which no one does).

I have a legally purchased Mac OS X version whatever . May I install it on my PC and ask for help here?

Stop trying to play spoilsport.

So you technically know that its illegal and still supporting it. However if any other Tom , Dick or Harry says it is some kind of criminal offense.

They don't help you with the illegal stuff though, like getting the 2.0 beta firmware. I hope the naysayers and cynics can see the fine line between legality and illegality through this example.

Yes I can. Read the following.

(c) Except as and only to the extent permitted by applicable law, or by licensing terms governing use of open-sourced components included with the iPhone Software or iPhone Software Updates, you may not copy, decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble, attempt to derive the source code of, decrypt, modify, or create derivative works of the iPhone Software, iPhone Software Updates, or any part thereof. Any attempt to do so is a violation of the rights of Apple and its licensors of the iPhone Software and iPhone Software
Updates. If you breach this restriction, you may be subject to prosecution and damages.

I could go on with more but I believe you wouldn't care nonetheless. Afterall you just don't want us to be the spoilsport . Oh and the exemptions made with the DMCA is only valid in the US. The one exception which allows to unlock their phones for use with another wireless provider. It does NOT support anything more than that.

Okay, I actually went through the License Agreement of the iPhone Software and have come to the conclusion that unlocking the iPhone is indeed, illegal.

Thank God someone else sees that it is illegal.

 

[aryayush]

OK. I've no clue about laws and whatnot, so if you say so, I guess I agree. The only reason I was debating is because of the several discussions I've seen over the course of my using Macs, I've never seen anyone question the illegality of installing Mac OS X on a PC and whenever people have questioned the illegality of unlocking an iPhone, the major share of repliers have declared that it is not illegal.

But you're the lawyer type around these parts, so I adhere to what you're saying. I only think that because AT&T is not present in India and Apple is still profiting from the phone, I'm not harming anyone by unlocking it for personal use.

If mods don't want us to, we won't discuss ways to unlock it on this forum. Discussing all other aspects of the iPhone is still permitted though, so no one should have a problem with that.

If some mod could clarify this for us, we would be grateful indeed.

@aayush, that still sounds funky to me. Don't you have to re-copy all your songs, contacts et al when you restore the iPhone?

That's not fun. Not even to a geek.

You can spot a Windows user speaking anywhere in a crowd.

See, the problem is that you've never really got a chance to use Apple stuff, so you don't know that Apple takes care of all that **** for you. After restoring my iPhone, which took all of two minutes, I just connected it to the Mac and this screen appeared in iTunes:

*img87.imageshack.us/img87/6493/setupyouriphonepp1.jpg

See? Recopying "all my songs, contacts et al" is not as elaborate a procedure as you might think. After I hit that one button, it restored my iPhone to its previous state, with everything properly in place, in about twenty minutes. I didn't have to do anything to have that backup taken and I didn't have to do anything to have it restored. It's all taken care of for me. That's certainly not not fun.

I personally enjoy modding my PSP, which also runs on an unofficial firmware unauthorised by Sony, and I use several unofficial apps and not once has it forced me to restore everything.

That's because it has been out for years now and all the hacks and procedures are established, well tested and stable. Give the iPhone some time. The PwnageTool from iPhone Dev Team already looks promising.

 

[FilledVoid]

Thank you for seeing it as the legal aspects are .

 

[iMav]

dude makes no difference carry on just fooling around as a matter of fact, i shall know a few things abt the iphone myself

 

[aryayush]

OK. This is just plain freaking awesome! The only thing I was regretting about having to restore the phone was losing my notes and text messages. Well, guess what, iTunes restored them too.

OMG! This is like that TextEdit auto-saving my document moment. Completely unexpected and totally welcome. Thank you, Apple. You're the best friggin' company on Earth!

(You don't think that was over the top, do you?)

 

[iMav]

^^ the same is with ipods too

 

[ring_wraith]

See? Recopying "all my songs, contacts et al" is not as elaborate a procedure as you might think. After I hit that one button, it restored my iPhone to its previous state, with everything properly in place, in about twenty minutes. I didn't have to do anything to have that backup taken and I didn't have to do anything to have it restored. It's all taken care of for me. That's certainly not not fun.

That's actually very nice. And if you read my original post, I was not sure, and hence asked a question.

But come on, it may not not be fun, but it's not fun either. Waiting for 16GB of data to be copied over every-time it crashes. And considering how new the iPhone 'scene' is, that should be fairly often.

Don't you think this is one place Apple screwed up? Don't you think the restore should just restore the firmware without touching your personal files? It's been done before, so it's not impossible.

 

[aryayush]

Well, if it can be done, by all means, it should.

All I'm saying is that even if it's not, the current situation is pretty good.

Also, crashes are not only not common, they are pretty much non-existent, if you don't go hunting for unstable sources for installer and experimenting with them (by default, it only allows you to install stable applications that won't crash the phone).

Really, I'm a twitchy person and would've been the first one complaining if there was anything to complain about.

 

[ring_wraith]

I was under the assumption that it crashes on a regular basis. Actually, I still am. I mean, it's barely been a week since you got one and already one crash. My s60 phone, which I experimented a lot with, crashed like once in 15 days or so.