*** Science Or God? ***

[whitestar_999]

What you are saying is somewhat true but what you are doing is linking objectivity with subjectivity which is never a good idea & that's where many don't agree with you.This example should make it clear:
Person A today says there are various state of minds & a few decades later some scientist B discover that based on emf differences between certain parts of brain we can classify particular states of mind.
Q1.Can person A be considered as somewhat correct today?
Ans.Yes(he has the idea)
Q2.Can person A be compared to Person B on same footing?
Ans.Absolutely not.There is a difference between saying "various states of minds" & saying"x/y*10^-5.exp(3)=state 1"

 

[doomgiver]

What you are saying is somewhat true but what you are doing is linking objectivity with subjectivity which is never a good idea & that's where many don't agree with you.

^ this, exactly this.

People think they have discovered the holy grail of the universe and run wild with it.

ok, what rish posted in his "EVERYTHING IS A HOLOGRAM, STARFLEET, HERE I COME" post, people reading it will believe that hologram = something like the star trek/star wars/scifi holograms, you know the kind.
BUT, WHAT they DONT know, or dont wanna know, is how hologram works, a hologram is a REFLECTION, they are using the word hologram in the loosest sense. They meant that the universe changes how it looks based on HOW you look at it, similar thing as quantum physics.

I'd HIGHLY suggest actually reading up on science before starting up random stuff.

What you are doing is exactly the same as what these charlatan babas/maharishis do, they just put forward a postulate without providing proof and say BS like "god has given me inner knowledge, let me tell you what the knowledge is". Its such kind of people who have contributed to what a shitty world we live in.

You keep saying "different realms", etc... what do you think? That it'll be like a game, like skyrim, borderlands, etc? Do you know time is a dimension? Its exciting to know how time is a dimension, right? Like, you can do so many amazing things with it, like watching time just ly by and wasting time.

No, pure science is not glamorous, its MIND NUMBINGLY BORING followed by a short period of immense breakthrough. This isnt a 80's movies, where the "scientist" had flasks full of colorful liquids. Today's science is mostly going through tons of data generated by experiments.

Nobody is gonna find a new dimension and go off exploring, or suddenly find a magical cure for cancer in the books of ancient indians. Partially intelligent posts like these make me angry. I dont mind idiots posting BS, but as they say, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing... you must learn more before understanding all this.

I hope one day one of us will look back on this thread and see how wrong the other was.

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either there are other dimensions which we cant perceive or their aren't
either this world is simulation of some kind or it isn't .. either consciousness is inside our physical body or it isn't

why should it be a simulation? why is it related to soul or consciousness or wahtever pseudometaphysical BS you wanna connect it to?

Tell me one thing, WHERE IS THE PROOF THAT THERE IS A SOUL? No proof, no admission, sorry. Go get proof first before making tall claims please. I can claim that I'm the ruler of this world, it doest make the claim right. Why the hell should we take your claim at face value?

And whatever you have to say about random amateur quacks speaking about souls or some nonsense, please, i dont listen to idiots like them, they are always fake. as long as the experiment/proof is not repeatable, its a fluke, and flukes should be tossed out of the window.

OK let's assume after 100 years we invent technology that allows us to measure the effects of other dimensions .. would you consider that as a partial validity of what ancients said or full validity of their claim ?

What did the ancients say? did they say that time is a dimension? WHERE IS IT EXPLICITLY WRITTEN THAT THERE ARE MORE DIMENSION IN INDIAN LITERATURE? Do they describe it? Does it mean that someone who writes science fiction novels will be taken as a very learned man, just because he wrote about something similar? (take the modern tablets and Star Trek's padds for eg).

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Ok, one last thing, it appears this thread has been taken over by pseudo-scientific nonsense, so I'll just unsub from this before I get banned.

See you in hell.

 

[ico]

There's a word - Metaphysics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You could go on and on and give any number of meanings to duality or come up with N number of metaphysical phenomenons to explain anything. But that really doesn't come close to explaining anything.

Spoiler

( i couldn't link these theories at that time .. so here is some food for thought ..
actually Modern Science is very close now, i'll use the terms ancient scientists which includes all yogis,buddhists,chinese,egyptians etc..

Claim 1 by Ancient scientists - the world is duality

this has already been proven by quantum physics in the Double Slit Experiment .. .. all matter and light are both particle and wave..

Double-slit experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Claim 2 - there are other realms and dimensions than our physical plain

See we know that Relativity theory of einstein works beautifully for our planets and our material universe but it falls apart at the quantum level at black hole..and quantum physics works beautifully at quantum level but falls apart at the larger level .. hence both proven theories are incompatible with each other

there is only 1 theory that works well with both quantum physics and relativity theory and that is String theory ( a subset is M theory )



String theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

but it hasn't been proven yet because of limited technology for experiments .. now this theory states that there are 11 dimensions..

the theory supports duality as well..

Claim 3 - Reality is an illusion

Simulations back up theory that Universe is a hologram : Nature News & Comment

this gives evidence in support of string theory..

Claim 4 - consciousness is outside our physical body

compelling objective evidence has been given in the link by anorion and 1,000s of testimony/anecdotes/case studies are there in medical literature..


those who are well versed with quantum physics please point out the holes in it and if i am saying anything wrong or relating anything wrong.. not copy pasting it from anywhere just linking them in my tiny brain ...

 

[snap]

Not the pyramids BS again :\

 

[Inceptionist]

I think I found a new signature.

... and? i can argue that my farts are immortal.

 

[doomgiver]

I think I found a new signature.

Hey, its actually true!!


The breaking wind can never be called back. Forever it wanders the earth, doomed to tingle the nose of some unsuspecting mortal. Someday, in the distant future, one of my descendents will sniff the air and go "Hmm, smells like TEEN SPIRIT".

BTW, fix the siggy, its coming all wrong.

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Hogan cautions that theidea that theuniverse is a hologram is somewhat misleadingbecause it suggests that our experience is some kind of illusion, a projection like a television screen. If the Holometer findsa fundamental unit of space, it won't mean that our 3D world doesn't exist. Rather it will change theway we understand its basic makeup

^ this is the main point. its not a "mayajaal" or illusion as you've expected.


you see those Chinese martial artists and zen monks doing crazy stuff with their body and mind control deemed impossible by science( these are effects of experiments ) and then when those people tell you they did it by energy and chi and then it is labelled as pseudo science..

no, its outside the NORMAL range of the human body. there have been extreme cases of an old woman (around 40-50 yrs old, i think), lifting a car to save her daughter (was stuck under the car due to accident).


are you saying that highly praised string theory is crap without even waiting for experiment results ? no scientist will deny the possibility of another dimension ,.. I am sure if it is proved there is another dimension then every scientist on this planet is going to study and explore that dimensions

i personally believe string theory is quite invalid, main points being : A) How do strings individually "resonate" without affecting the overall structured model of the universe, ie, if strings have infinitely many possible frequencies,why do we only see certain specific "quantum" of them, like the subatomic particles.... if it was truly "unique" frequencies, there'd be infinitely many types of particles. B) Same problem as quantum physics when applied to black holes : how do strings react when they meet a black hole? even worse, sheets or branes interactiing with singularities. we cant even solve it in 4 dimensions, let alone 6/11 dimensions that are required for string theory.

Sir please explain the placebo effect and please also tell us how do some incurable diseases like cancer sometimes just magically disappear .. and problems like arthritis are cured by fake surgeries ? why do these kind of miracles keep happening all the time in the so advanced medical science ?

"magic", you keep using that word. could you explain why cancer has gone away in some patients? if you cant either then no use blaming science. cancer is just a wild population growth of cells, nothing else. it depends on many factors (many of which are not even properly studied, let alone categorized). which arthritis surgery is "fake"? you get a full joint replacement, nothing fake.

all I am saying is that science doesn't understand everything yet .. so you see those homeopathy medicines ( it is mostly water ) and chinese traditional medicine that have been healing people for milleniums may all along have known the secret of mind .. modern science renamed it to placebo effect and spontaneous remission...

^ yea, science cannot explain everything NOW. just wait and watch

Life after death? Largest-ever study provides evidence that 'out of body' and 'near-death' experiences may be real - Science - News - The Independent

.. I don't know ask these NDE survivors why most of them have had similar experiences despite difference in race , nationality and other differences .. they say they have a soul or consciousness outside of their body and it isn't a hallucination

^you'd expect a white man to have different reaction to a black woman? kinda racist, imho. BTW, this still doesnt prove existance of a soul in any form. and when a person is close to death, they'll believe anything. plus, the most potent memries at this time (like, "life flashed before my eyes" sort of thing) are of childhood. and what are we taught? that "ek bhagwan hota hai, pooja karo", etc. i'd like to see how many of those people were highly religious and how many were athiests or agnostics.

but then does science fiction gives experiments and techniques and are they practiced by millions of people without any results for thousand of years ?

could you please explain better? i dont understand this phrase...

ohh pyramids .. please explain that as well how did they build that in that time .. and how were those pyramids able to withstand those countless catastrophies and still stand erect ..while moderns cant even build 1 with all their tech right now let alone through simple tools...

pyramids were built of SOLID stone. like, try to destroy a huge stone cube the size of a truck, really, try to. thats how thick the stones were. for your point : modern buildings are much more stronger compared to anything else. do you live in a high rise building? my 15 floor building has 4 homes in each level, around ~2.4k sq feet each plus 1k lobby area, all that load is supported by ~36 pillars of ~1-2 sq feet cross section and 4 square enclosures (think hollow square pillars) of ~200 sq feet each, with normal wall thickness. all that wieght on such a small area. thats how strong buildings are.

People have fought wars on the pyramids. the sphinx lost her nose/face because british/french (forgor which) used her for target practice.

try hitting a modern building with bullets of that era, it wont do much damage. please ask any architect how much force is required to break a modern wall, vs a random sandstone block.

also, pyramids are the most stable shape in nature. we build long rectangles. if WTC was a pyramid, you could've dropped 15 airplanes on it, and it'd not have collapsed.


oh just so you know in case you aren't aware... 1 guy claimed he knew all the secrets of ancients .. and to prove he alone built that structure without anybody's help singlehandedly and without modern tools not long ago .. he never revealed that secret to anybody .. so you know ancients weren't fools .. ohh did I mention he cured himself of tuberclosis without any doctors help ? interesting chap

"never revealed secret", ie, he didnt have any. as i said, no proof, no entry. sorry :/

.

mate, you gotta realize you are severely lacking in several critical areas, and you have several facts wrong/incorrect. i'd like you to atleast have a basic understanding of stuff before i;d try and debate you.

btw, if you dont like modern tech so much, why are you siting on a PC typing this out?
if its so much of a curse, maybe a life of a hermit is better, no?

anyway, i tried not tbe so aggressive this time. hope no offense was taken....

to save time, i replied in bold green

 

[whitestar_999]

From a neutral viewpoint let's settle it with quote:
"those who believe no proof is necessary,those who don't no evidence is sufficient".
btw both of you will have to wait for a being resembling hybrid of Einstein & prophet(moses,jesus,muhammad take your pick) to conclusively settle this debate.

 

[ico]

[MENTION=102842]doomgiver[/MENTION]
Reply properly man. No "replies in green" nonsense. This is detrimental to the debate as it makes tough for the other guy to reply. You have saved your time, but I can't save mine if I have to quote you. Next what? "replies in red".

text

reply.


^^ this is how it should be.

 

[snap]

Did we figure out how to recreate greek fire yet?

man, this zen/yoga seems like BS to me. Why don't they bring world peace,end world hunger,cure all them diseases yet :'( not enough yoga/zen power eh...


Just posting random thoughts now

 

[Inceptionist]

I wish I had popcorns when reading this thread.

 

[Chetan1991]

Here's something atheists ought to watch:



Remove the concept of God from society and watch as people turn hedonistic, nihilistic, narcissists and selfish and it all slowly spirals down like the US is doing right now...

Don't believe me? Watch this:


They rejected God, now their religion is poisonous ideologies like feminism and communism.

 

[amjath]

^+100

 

[Chetan1991]

Belief and rationality

 

[abhigeek]

[h=1]Pope Francis declares evolution and Big Bang theory are real and God isn't 'a magician with a magic wand'[/h]

The theories of evolution and the Big Bang are real and God is not “a magician with a magic wand”, Pope Francis has declared.
Speaking at the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, the Pope made comments which experts said put an end to the “pseudo theories” of creationism and intelligent design that some argue were encouraged by his predecessor, Benedict XVI.

The Big Bang, which today we hold to be the origin of the world, does not contradict the intervention of the divine creator but, rather, requires it.

 

[ico]

Here's something atheists ought to watch:



Remove the concept of God from society and watch as people turn hedonistic, nihilistic, narcissists and selfish and it all slowly spirals down like the US is doing right now...

Don't believe me? Watch this:


They rejected God, now their religion is poisonous ideologies like feminism and communism.

okay. thanx 4 sharing.

 

[Chetan1991]

Peter Krefft, Professor of philosophy at Boston College says theism is more rational than atheism, and is consistent with logic:

 

[doomgiver]

Peter Krefft, Professor of philosophy at Boston College says theism is more rational than atheism, and is consistent with logic:

Spoiler

that man is a charlatan and a fake. he isnt even a proper doctorate holder. all his "achievements" have been given by religious universities (those which award random stuff for saying any kind of religious stuff).

"belief in god far more rational than atheism,

doenst give a SINGLE reason to support his argument.

has to be an unmoved mover

what are natural resonant frequencies? but wait, this guy isnt even properly educated lol!! who authorized him to make such far-reaching decisions?

radioactivity no cause aka, there has to be a "first cause", aka "things which dont have to exist must have a cause"

pure and unadulterated nonsense. tell me this : what was the first cause of computers?
he basically relies on pseudo science and religious mumbo jumbo to hide his own lack of knowledge.

"no empirical evidence exists".

none exists for god either. and there is a much better empirical chance of being a gazillion other universes than that of being a god.
BUT WAIT!!! we're talking religion here. religous people do absolutely appaling things to defend their illogical actions.
They include :
1. not using logic (everything that has a cause must have a mover)
2. appealing to emotions (
3. asking ambigious questions
4. using backwards logic, like, instead of putting forward an argument and defending it, they just state their point and rely on there not being any wrong evidence to say that their point is correct. eg : religious guy claims that jesus exists because we DONT HAVE A WAY TO DISPROVE IT. this isnt science. you cant claim that just because something CANNOT be DISPROVEN, that it is right. thats just not how reasoning works, ergo, all people (read "religious types") who use this kind of tactic are wrong.

TL;DR : stop listening to fakes. this man is no better than a roadside baba whose parrot "reads your fortune".

Here's something atheists ought to watch:

Spoiler

Remove the concept of God from society and watch as people turn hedonistic, nihilistic, narcissists and selfish and it all slowly spirals down like the US is doing right now...

^ this is the worst thing you could've posted. you;ve just undermined your entire argument.
Religion has cause WAAAAAY more suffering, wars, pain and chaos than a godless society ever could. The spanish inquisition, south american tribes sacrificing living people, islam, christianity, just a few examples. (and look at hindu-muslim riots in the indian sub-continent, lol. you conviniently forgot that, didnt you?)

About 16% of the world population (1.1 billion people) are estimated to be nonreligious.

^Irreligion by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
its very dangerous to go outside, one out of every 6 people is a murderous atheist.

Don't believe me? Watch this:

Spoiler

They rejected God, now their religion is poisonous ideologies like feminism and communism.

feminism and communism are misguided attempts to right the wrongs of THE MASSIVE CLUSTERFK that has been the last 4000 years.
its thanks to RELIGION, yes, RELIGION, that women are in such a sorry state.
every bad thing can be traced back to religion. seriously, if there was no religion, people would be 10x better.


I wanted to write a short post, but what the hell, its not like people are gonna change their minds even though they are wrong.


and before you start : yes, god does not exist, i hate the concept of god, since it has bought nothing but misery for all of mankind. yes, i take great pleasure in ripping apart the pathetic lies put forward by those who believe in god.

i'll just leave these few words here :

Can [an omnipotent being] create a stone so heavy that it cannot lift it?

Is [an omnipotent being] willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then where does evil come from?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

just on the basis of these few lines, EACH AND EVERY SINGLE thing a religious guy may say can be refuted.


TL;DR : i just won this debate.

edit : i have no problems with switching to god's side, PROVIDED you provide irrefutable proof. till date, NOTHING anyone has ever posted can be taken for proof. only bad/invalid arguments and illogical rants.

 

[SaiyanGoku]

just a question, if there is a "god" why didn't he prevent from the himalayan tsunami from happening and killing all his "followers"?

 

[abhigeek]

^^ Give that man a medal....

 

[moniker]

Peter Krefft, Professor of philosophy at Boston College says theism is more rational than atheism, and is consistent with logic:

Sorry, but I feel this is silly rhetoric in the name of logic. The "professor" conveniently fails to mention the most rational line of thought - agnosticism.

The very fact that theists "believe" in god means that they are being subjective rather than objective. Belief in something is not a logical deduction of any hitherto unexplained event.

Same is the case with atheists. They also "believe", they believe that god doesn't exist.

Both theists and atheists don't know for sure whether god exists or not. They believe, and their beliefs should be respected.

Pure logic states that unless the existence of god is proved/disproved, we don't know for sure. We can only hold beliefs. And people who don't hold any beliefs are the rational agnostics. I'm agnostic and science supports agnosticism, not atheism.